MRS. MANLEY: -- the man I was friendly with had [microphone interference] given me, and he took them away.

W. MARSHALL: Mrs. Manley, we were talking earlier when we first -- when I first came in to chat with you about how you became interested in baseball. Of course, that had a lot to do with your husband. Can you sort of expound upon that?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, of c--- the -- my husband was the -- the one who really became interested in the baseball. I knew nothing at all about baseball at that time, and Abe just decided he wanted to see Negro baseball organized. There were twelve Negro baseball teams operating all over the country depending entirely on booking agents. And they were magnificent teams. Homestead Grays, Kansas City Monarchs, Birmingham Black Barons, Chicago American Giants, all 1:00great teams that continued to operate until the baseball was finally wrecked. So we were -- Abe just was interested enough to want to see them organized into leagues, and he got five of the teams in the East to go along with him and set up the Negro National League on condition that he would operate a team out of Brooklyn, Ebbets Field, the Dodgers' home park. And the Dodger people were very nice about renting the stadium place on no flat rate, just a percentage of whatever we drew in at the gate which was very nice `cause if they had demanded a certain amount we might -- So this -- this Negro National League, that's how it was born. Now this I'm speaking about is a permanent Negro National League. There had been a man in 1920, Rube Foster, who was really the first Negro who 2:00tried to organize Negro baseball. And the league that he set up at that time he named the National League, but it didn't last too long. And it were a -- he definitely deserves a lot of credit though for even trying it, but [inaudible]. So Abe got these five teams to go along. They each gave him two players and he was able to get the rest of the players together, and that's how the Newark Eagles were born. And we drew so poorly in Brooklyn that year that the next year we moved to Newark. Now that meant the -- I should have said that's how the Brooklyn Eagles were born. But the next year we moved to Newark and we stayed there for the rest of the time, 1945. You don't want to know at this time why we quit, do you?

W. MARSHALL: No. No, I think -- I think we can cover that a little later on.



W. MARSHALL: We also talked a little bit about why your husband owned the team. I mean, he just became interested quite suddenly.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, he was always a baseball fan. In fact he told me that he used to play baseball. I [chuckling] couldn't picture him, but he told me he used to play and he was a definite baseball fan. One of those real rabid ones, you know, and particularly Negro baseball. He had always followed the Negro baseball teams. And they -- in Philadelphia they had a team that I never saw, of course, it was before my time, but I heard so much about it. It must have been one of the greatest teams that was ever assembled called the Hilldales.


MRS. MANLEY: Did you ever hear of them?

W. MARSHALL: Yes, I have.

MRS. MANLEY: And, of course, that's where Abe lived and he used to -- he knew all the Hilldale players and I understand they were something. Well, you know, Negroes are great athletes. That's one of the fields that they excel in. They're definitely magnificent athletes. Any -- any athletic field they've ever 4:00competed in, they've always been -- you know, cinder path, prize ring, and football, basketball, everything, so there was no reason why they shouldn't be big baseball players.

W. MARSHALL: What -- what year did your husband die?

MRS. MANLEY: He died in 1952.

W. MARSHALL: In 1952?

MRS. MANLEY: Umhmm, December the 9th.

W. MARSHALL: You had then a great deal to do with the ball club as far as its operation is concerned, and how did this come about? I mean --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, when he -- he or -- the first year we -- they trained in Jacksonville, Florida. He always took the team south for training. He -- he went into it head first with his mind made up to send -- spend any amount of money he had to. And he started writing me back asking me to do the different things. There were, oh, many little things that he had to have taken care of 5:00that, I suppose, if we'd have been operating a long time and had some established help he would have turned it over to them. But little by little I found myself doing more and more, and that's fine. We just ended up completely involved and no question that -- that my final title after a very short time was business manager and that's what I did. I drew up the schedules, bought the equipment. We -- and we only used the finest equipment. Our uniforms were manufactured by the same people that made them for the majors. And there were -- had -- you had to pla--- arrange for the ball players' hotel accommodations before they left on a trip. And there were an awful lot of little things like that that I took care of. I had an office secretary and the -- this is another wonderful thing that happened to me, that we had a bus driver and a road 6:00secretary and an office secretary that stayed with us the whole fourteen years although we didn't pay them in the wintertime. Carrie Jacobs was the office secretary and she managed here just during the winters. And Edison Thomas, no matter who he was working for--the bus driver--soon as the baseball season rolled around, he left them to come back to the Eagles and drive the bus. And we were extremely fortunate, the road secretary, Eric [Ellidge?], he traveled with the Renaissance basketball team all winter. He was a -- that was a great basketball team. Did you ever hear of them?

W. MARSHALL: No, I haven't.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, th--- that was in the time when there was only one Negro basketball team, the Renaissance, and they were it, and they had all the greatest players, owned by a man in Harlem named Bob Douglas. And Eric was their road secretary in the winter and he came to us in the summer. So the whole fourteen years we had this beautiful set-up with the help which was wonderful.

W. MARSHALL: Had you ever had any sort of managerial experience before?




MRS. MANLEY: Uh-huh.


MRS. MANLEY: I had finished William Penn High School and that's as far as it -- And then I went to work -- I studied millinery. And at that time millinery was different from today. It took you --


MRS. MANLEY: -- a whole week to make a hat. You had to make the frame and what have you. So that was -- no, I'd had absolutely none. But I -- I -- I caught on very quickly with the baseball. Well, I saw how deeply involved my husband was, and he -- he was p--- he meant -- was just everything, you know. He -- I told you that he had to -- retired from his real [laughing] estate business.

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Yes.

MRS. MANLEY: So he was, no doubt, looking for something to do and this was something that just caught his fancy. I'm involved in something right now, and ninety-nine percent is because I believe it would please Abe, so I'll tell you as we go on --



MRS. MANLEY: -- the story of that.

W. MARSHALL: What was it like for you to run a ball club? It must have been a very exciting type of --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, --

W. MARSHALL: -- position. It's a very busy --

MRS. MANLEY: -- it was -- I think that's one of the reasons I'm so lazy now. [Chuckle--Marshall] It was a constant -- you were traveling f--- all the time.


MRS. MANLEY: Every time I looked I was on a plane going here or there. Went to all the meetings; of course, you know that. Now in the beginning, the men were a little bit, I believe, disturbed at this woman entering the picture, but not long. They -- they received me very nicely, and then they saw how important I was to Abe, you know, and, of course, everybody was crazy about him. His nickname -- one of the Negro newspapermen, Dan Burley in New York, nicknamed him "Honest Abe", and that was his name. He was just a -- a very well-liked person. And so the -- the -- the men accepted me and, of course, it was just one of 9:00those things. I -- I found myself completely involved and I enjoyed it. I -- I -- I liked it. It was a lot of work, though. It wasn't -- it wasn't by any means a thing that -- just a figurehead job where you'd -- where you'd have --


MRS. MANLEY: -- just the name.


MRS. MANLEY: There was really work to do. And as I said, all we'd -- before they left on a trip, I had arranged for their hotel accommodations in every city they were going, you know. Had notified the people and gotten their response and -- now, Eric -- Abe went with them on every trip. He -- it -- it was really something he loved, but he didn't take care of any of the business on the road. This fellow, Eric [[Ellidge?]?], took care of everything. He paid the bills, he handled the money, then gave the boys their eating money, and everything that was done so far as the business was concerned, Eric did. So Abe was just -- he turned the business over to other people so [laughing] he didn't have to be bothered.


W. MARSHALL: Did -- did you have a reputation for being sometimes somewhat outspoken as far as you wanted something --

MRS. MANLEY: No, I don't think -- I don't think I ever was too -- after Mr. [Branch] Rickey did what he did was when I really started talking a little bit. I mean, when -- when -- now, when he took -- you know, he took those three Negro ball players from our Negro baseball and didn't give us five cents or say, "Thank you", Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella and Don Newcombe. Of course, he took Newcombe from me so I know what I'm talking about. And we couldn't protest. The fans would have never forgiven us, plus it would have been wrong to have prevented them from going to the majors. But I told you, I had tried to get -- the majors should take us as a farm team, but they still weren't -- didn't want the Negro ball players, and you can see why. Their -- their excuse 11:00was the Negroes weren't good enough. So they've only gone to the major leagues proceeded to break all the records.


MRS. MANLEY: Of course, I don't think they'll ever break -- there's one record I don't think will ever be broken. You have any idea what that is?

W. MARSHALL: Not really.

MRS. MANLEY: [Joe] DiMaggio's consecutive --

W. MARSHALL: Consecutive --

MRS. MANLEY: -- game hitting streak. The -- the -- the pitchers are too sophisticated now. You know, they've got these wonderful bullpens ready to go in and --


MRS. MANLEY: -- and I doubt that anybody will hit in fifty-six straight games again.

W. MARSHALL: The only other one I can think of would be [Lou] Gehrig's record of consecutive games played, but --

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, I think that's been broken.

W. MARSHALL: Has that been broken?

MRS. MANLEY: I think so, yeah. I think that's been broken. But was it [Rogers] Hornsby? But -- but that DiMaggio consecutive hitting streak, I don't think anybody will hit that, but I don't know. [Chuckle]

W. MARSHALL: How -- you mentioned spring training in Florida. Did you train down there every -- every spring?

MRS. MANLEY: Always. Always went there, except there were, of course, the year that -- that the ma--- the government wouldn't let the teams go south, you know. 12:00You had -- it was -- I think it was the gasoline shortage, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- I believe, or --


MRS. MANLEY: -- I don't know what it was but, anyway, that's when the year that the -- the Dodgers trained up at Bear Mountain and that's when the whole thing started.

W. MARSHALL: Now, -- now you mentioned that before the organization of the two leagues, that primarily the Negro ball clubs were working through booking agents.

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, definitely. Completely.

W. MARSHALL: Now, after the formation --

MRS. MANLEY: Entirely, plus theirselves. They used to get together once in a while and arrange promotions for themselves, you know. Now this year that Abe got these five teams to go along with him out East, the next year the western teams got together and formed the Negro American League.


MRS. MANLEY: And that was -- Dr. Martin was responsible for that. There were three brothers and they were all -- they had the title "Dr." I don't think they were medical doctors. I believe one was a dentist and one had a drug store. But 13:00anyway, Dr. Martin formed -- got the western teams to get together and formed the Negro American League. So from then on until Mr. Rickey's raids, we operated -- we -- we drew up our schedules, we played them out, we played our World Series, we played our East-West All-Star Game always in Comiskey Park, Chicago. I think that was -- Dr. Martin kind of had a little --

W. MARSHALL: Influence on that?

MRS. MANLEY: -- some [laughing] -- some -- someone got a little something extra in [chuckle--Marshall] some way. But there were -- so it was a -- and they -- and we won the pennant in `46. Boy, did we have a ball club in 1946. I don't believe any ball club in the country could have beaten us. We really had some team. This boy, Monte Irvin, was on it. And Larry Doby, who went to --


MRS. MANLEY: -- Cleveland?


MRS. MANLEY: Now Rickey had taken [Don] Newcombe the year before, so Newcombe wasn't on our pennant winning team. But we had a third baseman, Pat Patterson. 14:00Oh, we had some magnificent ball players. It breaks my heart to see those fellows do that. That's why I'm pleading so hard now for this plaque with just their names, you know.




MRS. MANLEY: -- so -- and I'm -- I'm -- this last letter I received from Mr. Stack, the president, he said he was in sympathy with the -- with a request for a plaque and was going to see what he could do or something, words to that effect. If you're interested, I'll read it to you.

W. MARSHALL: Yes, I would like to see it.


W. MARSHALL: Did you also do some barnstorming?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, definitely. Now, our -- our league schedule was mainly weekends and one game in the middle of the week.

W. MARSHALL: How many games did you play in a season? I know it varied from season to season, but approximately how many?

MRS. MANLEY: How many what?

W. MARSHALL: How many regular league games did you play?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, we played -- I think the -- the regular league then was sixty.


MRS. MANLEY: Uh-huh.

W. MARSHALL: And then how many games would you estimate you played during the 15:00year as a team?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, well, now that's another thing. In -- in our -- in the case of my Eagles, [sighs] that barnstorming was another thing that was dependent on the booking agent. And Abe had entered right into the picture just fussing about the booking agents. He said the bookings should be done by the league itself. They should not need any outside agent. And that was one time I disagreed with him, but not to any great extent. I said those men had the know-how and the set-up and all and I thought we should go along with them because I -- I could see that it was going to cost us money. But Abe was determined that, no, the league should do its own booking. As a result, it meant that many times we just were idle. The Eagles, we'd put in the schedule, they always played out the schedule, there was never any confusion about that, the teams that we played. But there were many times when the other teams would be playing somewhere, many times with big promotions; the Eagles weren't in it. 16:00So that's how we come to -- how he come to spend so much money. He'd s--- spend it -- he actually spent a hundred thousand dollars -- I mean, lost that much operating the team because --

W. MARSHALL: Is that over the fourteen-year period?

MRS. MANLEY: -- over the -- yes. Because the first and fifteenth of every month the ballplayers' checks -- that was another job that I personally wanted to handle. Each ballplayer's paycheck was different. They all had not only different salaries, but different dependents. This one would have none, this one would have two and what have you. So that was a little job that I didn't turn over to Miss Jacobs. I did that myself.

W. MARSHALL: What are we talking about as far as salaries were concerned, let's say in the `40s?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, a -- a good salary was five hundred dollars. That wasn't bad. And it would probably be a couple of thousand today, you know. I mean --

W. MARSHALL: That would be --

MRS. MANLEY: -- a month.

W. MARSHALL: -- five hundred dollars for a month.

MRS. MANLEY: A month, yes.


MRS. MANLEY: A month. And that was one of our good -- our top salaries and --


W. MARSHALL: And you paid how many months out of the year?

MRS. MANLEY: Let me see. We started in April in the spring training and we played up until around late September. So that'd be May, June, July, August, and -- I'll say five months.

W. MARSHALL: How about a -- how about a salary for -- for a fellow just coming on the team, a rookie?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, that was -- that was something that I didn't decide. That was one of Abe's jobs or --

W. MARSHALL: And it varied according to --


W. MARSHALL: -- who you were trying to attract --

MRS. MANLEY: According --

W. MARSHALL: -- and so forth?

MRS. MANLEY: -- to how he was attracted. Now, he -- he was -- he was very fortunate in so far as people recommending ballplayers to him. We were -- of course, had no scouts -- no paid scouts. But any time -- now, that boy Larry Doby.


MRS. MANLEY: A friend of Abe's had seen Doby. He played at Patterson --

W. MARSHALL: That's in New Jersey.

MRS. MANLEY: -- High School, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- you know. He was a big star there. Somebody wrote Abe about a 18:00boy that was pitching down in Lakeland, Florida. Abe went all the way down there to see him and liked him very much and brought him back and he was a beautiful left-hand pitcher. I've often wondered what happened to Jimmy. Very small. When Abe showed up with him, the team -- the ballplayers all thought, "Oh, how can that little man be anything -- kind of a ballplayer?" But he was quite a pitcher. And there was -- as I said I've often wondered what in the world might have happened to Jimmy. He's one of those I've lost complete contact with. But there were -- that was the way -- that was Abe's job. And if he -- if he felt a fellow was worth this much or that much -- there's one ballplayer out here now working in the post office. In fact, he's trying to set up a business -- a agen--- talent agency. And he played first base for us for a short time and he was recommended. Quite a star in high school up in -- in 19:00Connecticut, I believe it was. And he calls me frequently. We have a -- Fran Matthews is his name. And we have a very fine, friendly relationship. And -- but Abe set the salary. He -- he knew how much they -- he felt they were worth, you know, to the team. That -- that wasn't in my department at all.

W. MARSHALL: How many players did you have on the roster?

MRS. MANLEY: We always had at least sixteen and sometimes eighteen. It was according to -- now there's -- there's a picture -- [inaudible] that championship team. One ballplayer wasn't there the day that picture was taken and I don't think we would have won the pennant without him. Pat Patterson, the third baseman. And on that team I think there were -- one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, fifteen -- there's the bat boy, that's one of them, and Pat wasn't there. So on that 20:00team I guess there might have been sixteen men.

W. MARSHALL: Did you actually have contracts with the players or were there verbal agreements?

MRS. MANLEY: Every ballplayer who ever played for the Eagles had a signed, legitimate contract, yes. There was never any dis--- such thing as playing just in -- on -- that Jackie Robinson said all he had was a handshake. Well, that wasn't true of the Eagles. And I don't think it was true of most of the teams. I think -- that was one of our league rules and I think most of the teams lived up to it. Yes, we had definite, legitimate, legal contracts.

W. MARSHALL: Did you travel with the team?

MRS. MANLEY: No. Never. One trip -- one time they were going to play an important game in Trenton, New Jersey, and I wanted to see the game. And it would have been very hard to get there any other way except if I'd driven, so I went in the bus with them. And that was the one and only time in the fourteen 21:00years, and I definitely curbed their style. Abe said they liked to sing [chuckling] and joke, you know, everything in the bus and I was definitely out of place. So that was the only trip I ever made. Trenton, New Jersey, wasn't too far from Newark, you know, where we were and I just --

W. MARSHALL: You -- you were living in Newark at --

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, we was living in Newark and I just --

W. MARSHALL: How long did you live there?

MRS. MANLEY: Let me see. We moved -- Abe and I married in `32 and he went in the business in `33. I guess we moved to Newark in `33 and I lived there till Abe died. We were married twenty years, so we were there -- I lived --

W. MARSHALL: And then you moved -- moved out here, I take it?

MRS. MANLEY: No, I moved from Newark back to my hometown, Philadelphia. And then I came out here to marry an old boyfriend. Stupidest -- [laughs] I've been married twice since Abe died. Both of them very stupid. This is -- this shouldn't be on the record. [Laughs]

W. MARSHALL: Do you want me to turn it off?

MRS. MANLEY: Very stupid marriages. They're both dead now, so they [chuckling] 22:00-- they won't know I'm talking about them.


MRS. MANLEY: And they both -- the funniest thing, they played the piano and sang for a living, and I've always been weak for music. Music has been something that has always kind of [inaudible] the records just stay around all the -- well, a lawyer friend of mine came out to visit a few years ago and he greeted me at the door with this -- Austin [Norris?] is his name from Philadelphia. "Effa, are you ready to settle for records yet?" I said, "Yes, Austin, I'm ready to settle for records." `Cause those two marriages were my own private entertainment world. And then, of course, I had -- lived in a bigger place then where I had a piano and all.

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Sure.

MRS. MANLEY: When I moved here I sold the piano and everything.

W. MARSHALL: Sure. What were the road conditions like for the ballplayers? I'm sure that since you didn't travel with them but you heard a lot of stories, I'm sure.

MRS. MANLEY: Luc--- Abe traveled with them and stayed with them every place 23:00they played -- they stayed. And I know that their -- that any -- those tales you hear about how bad conditions were were not true. Now there were several occasions when I wanted to see the team. I didn't travel with them to the town, but I would go -- I would drive myself. Now, Philadelphia wasn't too far away and I used to -- anytime go to Philadelphia, and I always stayed right at the colored hotel with the teams. And Abe always stayed with them. He never spent -- not any -- didn't even go with friends or anything. He stayed right with the ball club and all that. And I -- I -- the -- the hotels, of course, they weren't elaborate, magnificent, but to me they were clean, decent, honest-to-goodness -- now, the year that we let Cleveland have Doby and, of course, when they won the pennant, I decided I wanted to see the team -- the 24:00game with Doby in the World Series, so I flew out to Cleveland and I went right to the colored hotel. That's where we'd always stayed. And I got the luckiest break. The hotel was crowded because everybody was in town for the World Series, and I had to have -- they had -- the only room they had when I got there was a room with the -- the bathroom -- toilet down -- way down the hall, and Joe Louis happened to be staying there the same time. And he heard about my plight, and he had a suite, and he gave me his suite and --

W. MARSHALL: Oh, my.

MRS. MANLEY: -- he went and stayed with some friends.

W. MARSHALL: Oh, my.

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, we were good friends. Joe -- Joe started in business same year we did. He started fighting in 1935. It was the same year we started into baseball. So we became good friends. So as soon as Joe heard about me with this little beat up room [chuckling] with the bathroom way down the end of the hall, he gave me his suite of rooms.

W. MARSHALL: I'll be darned.

MRS. MANLEY: And so it's been a -- it's been a pleasant sort of unu--- and this 25:00-- this was happening during the time when women weren't involved in this sort of -- in fact, up till today, there's no woman actually running a baseball team. I imagine there are many, many of them employed in different categories, but they're not actually --


MRS. MANLEY: -- doing the kind of work I did with the team.

W. MARSHALL: -- if they are, they're -- they're behind the scenes.

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah. So it was a very -- and then you said Monte told you about me, I imagine that there were -- his comments were complimentary. I don't think he had -- would -- could have anything to say that wasn't -- because there's no que---

W. MARSHALL: You're correct.

MRS. MANLEY: -- now he was the boy -- had the Negro -- had the owners of the Negro teams been asked who to break down the prejudice in the majors, Monte -- we had gotten

together and talked about it. Not -- nothing legal or --

W. MARSHALL: About what year was this, --

MRS. MANLEY: -- or official, but we had --

W. MARSHALL: -- do you recall?

MRS. MANLEY: -- discussed it among ourselves. We saw the handwriting on the 26:00wall, you know, that -- we knew that it was going to come. And we had decided that if they asked us who to break down the prejudice in the majors, Monte would have been the boy. He had everything. He had -- now, one of the things that Robinson didn't have which, of course, I'm not knocking Robinson because he did a magnificent job fitting into the picture like he did, but he didn't have an arm. Monte had one of the most magnificent arms that's ever been in baseball. He -- if he was playing in the outfield, it was a line drive came right into the catcher's mitt you know. And nobody ever took an extra base on him. That [chuckling] was out of the question. So he was the one -- we had -- we owners had agreed --

W. MARSHALL: About what -- what year was this, that you're talking in terms of?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, we -- the -- the actual integration took place in `46, didn't it? So this must have been around `44 that we were doing all this talking --

W. MARSHALL: That's when Irvin was in the service.


W. MARSHALL: Did you know that -- did you know that -- that Branch Rickey 27:00approached Monte Irvin in 1945 to -- and asked him to -- whether or not he was ready? Did you know that happened?

MRS. MANLEY: Now, wait a minute. Branch Rickey approaching Monte? No.

W. MARSHALL: And Monte for, I guess, personal reasons and, I guess, that he'd been through a lot in the war, said no at that time.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, no, I -- I don't remember that. Of course, there were so many problems and things. Now -- now, Mexico decided they wanted our Negro players early in the `40s. And, boy, they star--- I mean, that was a -- the -- it was a -- it was a -- just a series of problems. And I remember one of the greatest of our players, Ray Dandridge, the third baseman, he came to me one day with this thousand dollars. "Mrs. Manley"--I think their name was Pasquel, -- W. MARSHALL: Yeah.

MRS. MANLEY: -- the Pasquel brothers.

W. MARSHALL: There were two brothers, right.

MRS. MANLEY: "Mr. Pasquel has just come and gave me this money and wants me to come to Mexico. Now if you will give it to me instead, I won't go." And my 28:00feeling was, to begin with, I couldn't have competed with the Pasquels. They were millionaires. If it came down to bidding for the players, I'm sure they could have outbid me. We were -- and plus the fact that I just didn't think it was a good idea to start that, so -- so I -- I advised him, Dandridge, to go which he did, and he stayed for quite a few years down there. And that -- there was another fellow that they wanted awfully bad, Pearson, our first baseman. I was willing and able to talk Pearson out of going. But Mexico jumped on us head first. They were taking all our great players. And, of course, you couldn't blame the boys. They saw this big money, you know, and -- and -- but most of them -- the thing that was in our favor in the Mexico thing -- situation, the 29:00ballplayers themselves didn't like it down there. They didn't like the food at all. That was a -- and -- they -- they were not happy down there. So most of them only stayed that one year.

W. MARSHALL: Didn't you -- didn't the league lose Satchel Paige?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, yes. Well, [chuckling] Sa---

W. MARSHALL: Isn't there a story behind that?

MRS. MANLEY: -- Satch -- yeah. This -- this probably oughtn't be on the record either ever.

W. MARSHALL: Can I leave it on, though? [Chuckle]

MRS. MANLEY: Abe -- I don't know whether -- Abe actually gave -- Satchel was playing for Gus Greenlee's team at the time, [inaudible], and Abe actually gave Gus five thousand dollars for Satchel. Well, that was a whole lot of money then for a Negro ballplayer. In fact, I believe it probably is the only time in the history of the game that cash was paid for a ballplayer. But Abe always wanted a good team. We always had a good team. We only won the pennant in `46, but we were always up there second or third. Of course, we had those consistent champs, the Homestead Grays. They were to Neg--- black baseball what the 30:00Yankees were to --


MRS. MANLEY: -- white baseball. They were terrific. They always had a magnificent ball club. So in the case of Satchel, Abe actually gave Gus five thousand dollars for Satchel. This -- I don't know whether I ought to tell you this or not. Satchel wrote me and told me he'd come to the team if I'd be his girlfriend. [Laughter]

W. MARSHALL: Fantastic!

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, murder. Butch Bell was my publicity man, and I showed the letter to Butch and said, "Butch, what do you do in a case -- " [Laughs] I was kind of cute then, too. We're talking about forty years ago.

W. MARSHALL: That was --

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, murder. So, of course, I didn't even answer his letter because it was one of those things, and he ended up going to -- didn't he go to Mexico or one of those southern countries? So that's how -- with Satchel we actually paid for him. Abe actually gave Gus five thousand cold-cash dollars for Satchel. And --


W. MARSHALL: Did you get --

MRS. MANLEY: -- I don't think --

W. MARSHALL: -- did -- did you get your money back wh--- when he went?

MRS. MANLEY: I don't think -- I don't think Gus gave him the money back. Now that I don't really know. But there were -- of course, so far as Gus was concerned, he turned Satchel over to us and I guess it was our job to try to get him, I suppose, because Satchel was so unpredictable. He was one of those that did anything and -- and, you know, I heard this story about him and I couldn't hardly believe it. So one day his team was playing in Yankee Stadium and I decided to go over and see was it true. If Satchel had two outs in the ninth inning and two strikes on the batter, he turned around and called the outfield in and they all came in and he just burned that fastball over and that was it. That -- the ballplayers say you can't hit what you can't see [chuckling] when he threw that fast ball. And he used to -- and he did it this day. I actually saw him do it. Two strikes on the batter, two outs, last inning, and he just 32:00called the outfield -- and the outfield all came running in. And, of course, the -- the owners permitted it. It was amusing to the fans. I got a terrific kick out of it myself. And that -- that fast ball of his was something else. But, you know, there was a ballplayer that all the old-timers who really knew the Negro ballplayers say he was a much better pitcher than Satchel. Did you ever hear of Joe Williams?


MRS. MANLEY: Smokey Joe --

W. MARSHALL: Smokey Joe.

MRS. MANLEY: "Cyclone" Williams?

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Yes.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, his wife and I were lifelong friends. She just died about a year or so ago. And just a short time before she died -- she lived in Washington, D.C.. Of course, she had remarried. Joe's been dead for years. Just shortly before she died she sent me this picture of Joe. And about a couple of years ago -- there seems to be a great deal of interest now in the whole black story. Not only black baseball, but the black story.



MRS. MANLEY: And a couple of years ago I was invited three times on television to talk about our black baseball. One time they had Newcombe on with me. Prime time on the big channel. Gil Stratton on Channel 2 and Bryan Gumbel on Channel 4. And it broke my heart to see that the present generation doesn't know we ever existed. They just don't know that there ever was this wonderful, magnificent black baseball. So I enlisted the aid of a professional writer and I wrote this book, Negro Baseball Before Integration. And I've got -- I've got one -- a copy of it in that envelope for you. And I have -- I was lucky enough to have this picture of Joe, Smokey Joe Williams. It has these lovely pictures in it. And the -- we couldn't get a publisher, and I believe it's because this 34:00fellow devoted the entire epilogue, I think it's about twenty-five pages, to talk -- telling about the records the Negroes have broken since they've been in the majors. And they -- and he doesn't just say John Henry broke this record or Joe Louis broke this record. He tells when the record was broken, by who, in what ballgame, what date, you know. And it -- it's something that could be verified if anybody wanted to go into it. And I don't think the publishers were particularly happy about that epilogue. That's the only thing --

W. MARSHALL: You think it stepped on too many white toes, in other words?


W. MARSHALL: It s--- you think it stepped on too many white toes.

MRS. MANLEY: Yes. I --


MRS. MANLEY: -- do because there's no question they were -- they've been breaking the records just going and coming. I mean --

W. MARSHALL: No question.

MRS. MANLEY: -- and that was why they said they didn't use them because they weren't good enough, which is -- has made a big story, I mean from Hank Aaron and -- and Lou Brock and Maury Wills, you know, boy. So -- and now again 35:00yesterday, Jack--- what's his name, --

W. MARSHALL: Reggie Jackson.

MRS. MANLEY: -- was caught up with the -- what's his name's record?

W. MARSHALL: Ruth's record?

MRS. MANLEY: Babe -- Babe Ruth's record.

W. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].

MRS. MANLEY: So they're just magnificent athletes. That's one of -- bad business people. They're not sacrificing. They can't be bothered learning the [chuckling] --

W. MARSHALL: You -- you mentioned that, of course, that very little money that was paid for players, but there were some trades, were there not?

MRS. MANLEY: Occasionally, but not too many. When a team got -- I -- I tell you what happened. With our Negro baseball, there was no such thing as dissatisfaction on the team. The boys, honest to God, were not working. They were -- they loved it. It was -- they were enjoying every minute of the -- of their work, you know. And I don't think that there was any such thing as dissatisfaction. The -- you -- nowadays these huge salaries and things just 36:00with the white leagues, there are so many problems seem will crop up. But in the case of our Negro baseball -- now, there was one time Abe was going to make a trade for a -- this very Pat Patterson, and the fans found out about it and the fellow he was going to trade was very popular in Newark, Murray Watkins. And I used to sit down in the stands with the fans most of the time. The best place to see the game was really from the press box, but I frequently -- I most of the time sat in the stands. And when word got around that Abe was going to trade Watkins, the fans all got on me. They were waiting for me when I got to the ball--- "What's this about Watkins going to be traded, girl?" I said, "Listen, darling, that's not my department. I have absolutely nothing to -- " "Oh, what do you mean? We know you run this team, girl. You dirty -- " and they would just -- they couldn't understand me saying I didn't know any--- which 37:00I didn't. It wasn't my department. So that is one time I said to Abe, "Abe, do you think you're making a mistake? The fans are very upset about Watkins being traded and they -- they're coming to me at the park left and right and I knew -- " He said, "Oh, Effa, there's no comparison." He said, "The only reason that I'm going to be able to get this fellow for him is because he's not getting along with the manager." He said, "Otherwise, the Stars wouldn't let him go." He d--- was playing with the Philadelphia Stars. So the trade was made and that was this Pat Patterson. And he was -- I told you, I don't think we would have won the pennant without him. He was magnificent. He was a physical ed teacher in the wintertime in one of the colleges in Texas. And there were -- as soon as Patterson appeared on the scene, these same fans, "Girl, the trade is okay!" Patterson started right in looking like a million dollars. He -- he was really something. He was one of our greatest --

W. MARSHALL: So you got credit for it, too!

MRS. MANLEY: -- yeah. "Girl, the trade was cool." He was -- he was one of 38:00those exceptions. He's one of those whose name I feel should be on a plaque up there, you know, because they're not going to put the pictures of all these great ballplayers.

W. MARSHALL: You mentioned Pat Patterson having a -- a winter job?

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, he taught physical ed at one of the Negro colleges in Texas. Now which one, I don't remember.

W. MARSHALL: Umhmm. Did other players have other part-time jobs during the season?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, now, let me say that's an interesting thing. You see that little mark up on the wall right beside that picture on the woodwork?


MRS. MANLEY: A trophy used to stand there. Now -- and that's the picture of it down below which I'll show you. The first we had the team, 1935, I was very unhappy about the boys not having any work in the winter, so I proceeded to make us contacts in Puerto Rico. I didn't know the man personally in Puerto Rico, but I had -- knew someone in New York who knew him well enough to make the contact. And this Puerto Rican set up a -- promised me that if I sent the team 39:00down there they would keep them busy. So I got the fellow who was managing the best Negro team, the Homestead Grays. His name was Vic Harris. And I got Vic to go along with me, and that's a picture there that I'll show you later. That little picture down there in that little double frame. That's the team. Vic got -- about half of my boys agreed to go, and Vic got the rest of them together, and I let them have my uniforms. So they went down as the Brooklyn Eagles. That was the year we played in Brooklyn. So they went down as the Brooklyn Eagles. Puerto Rico accepted them with open arms, put them right in the league. They proceeded to win the pennant, beat everybody in Puerto Rico. Brought me back the trophy. That's where it stood, where that mark is there.


MRS. MANLEY: And I used to always wonder every time I looked at the trophy what would happen to it when I died. Nobody wants anybody's old trophies and 40:00scrapbooks and -- when Monte was picked for baseball's Hall of Fame, a Mr. [inaudible] telephoned me. I told him about the trophy. So he asked me if I ever parted with it would I let him have it for the Hall of Fame, so I shipped it immediately. If I'd known how much it was going to cost, I'd probably have sent it C.O.D.. It was a heavy -- it was silver and it was a heavy, beautiful thing, and it cost me a hundred and three dollars and twenty cents, I think it was. I got the receipt on the back of the thing. And there -- so it is now up at baseball's Hall of Fame. And from then on--that's answering your question a long way--all the good Negro ballplayers could get work in Puerto Rico and Cuba. Cub--- they both -- both have always been very baseball conscious.

W. MARSHALL: Oriented. Right. Sure.

MRS. MANLEY: So from then on a boy that we'd be giving five hundred dollars a month could go down there and get a thousand, and they all started going to Puerto Rico and Cuba in the wintertime. So that -- that -- mo--- of the -- the 41:00good ones had no problems at all getting work in those two countries. So that's a round about way of answering your question but [chuckle] --

W. MARSHALL: No, really I was getting at is that they had other --

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah. Well, that --

W. MARSHALL: -- other jobs at home.

MRS. MANLEY: -- that -- that -- no, not at -- I don't think there were too many of them had too much -- of course, they occasionally worked in bars and things like -- where the fans congregated, you know, and -- but that winter ball was -- it was a big deal. That -- that was something that -- and it was permanent. It wasn't just a little fly-by-night thing either. They -- they actually wanted them. They used to come up after the Negro ballplayers, you know.

W. MARSHALL: How -- how often did -- did you meet as owners? In other words, what -- what sort of hierarchy did you have?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, we had our regular meetings. We drew up the schedules mainly. And there were -- I guess that was about the most important business 42:00was doing the schedules so we --

W. MARSHALL: How often did you meet during the year? I'm sure it varied, but --

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, well, I -- let me see. I'd say a couple of times.

W. MARSHALL: Are there any -- any records existing from this --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, that's the thing about -- now, for instance, in my case. When I moved from Newark to Philadelphia, I told you, we had in, I guess you'd call it the basement, it was a -- really an entrance off of the si--- street at the side. And I had these file cases full of records I just left there because I had no dreams I'd ever have any need for them in the f--- you know, we were out of the baseball, Abe was gone. It was -- I guess nothing was further from my mind than a lot of these great big tall steel cases. And I had two file 43:00cases of the five drawer kind. You know, four drawers [inaudible] and full of all kinds of information and records. So I suppose that that's what happened to all the owners. I guess they just completely did away with it.

W. MARSHALL: And those records, of course, --

MRS. MANLEY: Considered it junk.

W. MARSHALL: -- since been destroyed.

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, Lord, I'm sure the people I sold the building when I moved to Philadelphia -- before I moved I sold the building, and I'm sure the people that -- that bought it -- they are using that room for storage space or something, I don't know. But -- and I imagine that's what happened to all of them because they -- you just didn't know that there would ever be any need for them, you know. It was just one of those things that -- now, those pictures up there, that's an interesting story. This one over here, the cap and jacket?


MRS. MANLEY: The New York Post, I know you've heard of that. W. MARSHALL: Yes.

MRS. MANLEY: It's the only good --


MRS. MANLEY: -- paper now. In 1938, this boy came over to get my picture and 44:00I refused to pose for him. I said, "No. It's Mr. Manley's baseball and he's the one behi--- if you want any pictures, you'll have to take him." So the boy was in tears. He was a little youn--- younger than you are, but he wasn't a real boy, but he was not an old -- into his early twenties. And he was [inaudible], "Mrs. Manley, if I go -- I was sent over here to get a picture of this woman in baseball. If I go back without it, I'm going to be in the dog house." And he looked so heartbroken. I said, "Well, what do you want me to do?" So he said, "Will you put on a cap and jacket and get in the dugout," which I did, and honest to God, William, if I've seen that picture once I have seen it at least fifty times. And I have a feeling that it's possibly been in the papers a hundred times. That is, it was a good, interesting picture, and I have a feeling that it's --


[End of Tape #1, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]

MRS. MANLEY: -- really been in the papers so many times. [Laughter] They used to just put this part in mostly, but I got quite a few of them in my scrapbook. So the next -- the week after that came out in The Post, our -- the Newark Evening News asked me to pose and I couldn't refuse them because they were very nice to me --


MRS. MANLEY: -- so far as publicity, and -- and they got me to pose for this one.

W. MARSHALL: That is a dandy shot.

MRS. MANLEY: So that was -- but this was the most interesting thing and this one I wrote on the back, Lord, it's disappeared, but it was the Post in 1938. I remember it well, when -- when it was. And I always got a terrific kick out of looking at that picture because it was a kind of an unusual thing for a woman to 46:00be mixed up in the baseball to start off with.

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Yes.

MRS. MANLEY: And the Post carried that. I have it in my scrapbook. The Post carried a full page for, you know. And they also got me that day that Mule Suttles, he was one of our great hitters. We of--- they often compared him to Babe Ruth. They meant -- they got me out with Mule supposed to be showing me how to hold the bat. I think that [chuckling] was on the same page with that picture. So it was an unusual -- I mean after all we're talking about forty years ago, you know, --

W. MARSHALL: Yes, indeed.

MRS. MANLEY: -- when that was -- it's a little different now, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- the way women are --


MRS. MANLEY: -- behaving today.


MRS. MANLEY: They're in everything.

W. MARSHALL: Let me switch to World War Two, and as I understand it, there were around 54 Negro ballplayers involved in the service, and yet --


MRS. MANLEY: Only --

W. MARSHALL: -- none were killed and -- and some were wounded.

MRS. MANLEY: -- they -- they definitely volunteered. There was no problem. Monte went overseas. Larry Doby went overseas. And -- and there were -- there were -- really the war really did take its toll so far as our ballplayers were concerned. No question about that.

W. MARSHALL: Okay, well, --

MRS. MANLEY: I didn't know of many of them that didn't return.

W. MARSHALL: Did -- did this injure your operation as far as -- I mean, you mentioned, of course, --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I --

W. MARSHALL: -- the gas rationing that one time, but --

MRS. MANLEY: -- I'll tell you, I think that the -- that -- that war the whole country seemed to be cooperative. You know, everybody was ready to do everything they could to help out. And it wasn't -- wasn't like the Vietnam -- this recent --


MRS. MANLEY: -- deal, you know. And there were -- now, I was very war conscious. Boy, I was -- I had a job, o-o-oh. A volunteer job. They -- I had 48:00a uniform. I have a picture of myself in that thing. And I was on the gasoline rationing panel. That was a heck of a job. And yet everybody was beautiful. They had to come to us if they wanted extra gasoline, and they told their story, and if you felt they should have more, you issued them the additional coupons. Everybody got their gasoline with coupons, you know. And if you felt that they didn't -- they shouldn't have it, you didn't give it to them and there was never any complaints. No arguments, nothing, they just -- they accepted it. And I mean everybody, as I said, was very war conscious so the fact that the teams might have been a little weaker, they accepted that, too, you know. They didn't -- nobody ever -- everybody seemed to be willing to do their share.


MRS. MANLEY: And you were too young. You weren't even born yet during that time. That's right.


MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, but it wa--- it was a -- it was a different -- it was a real country effort. The whole country was involved and they -- they were -- 49:00everybody was doing everything. Selling bonds and -- oh, murder, they -- you just can't imagine the involvement. You just -- it was out of the question not to be interested and doing what you could, you know. So the -- the -- the baseball teams, the fact that they were weakened -- and, of course, that happened to the white teams, too, you know.


MRS. MANLEY: I mean, any young man who -- and then the men volunteered. They were willing to go. They were ready to -- to do their share, so --

W. MARSHALL: You mentioned, of course, that you got together with some of the owners in -- around `45 or `46, and you had decided that probably the best candidate to break the color barrier would have been --


W. MARSHALL: -- Monte Irvin. But did you and your husband as owners ever before this time recommend a ballplayer to an owner -- a major league owner? Do 50:00you recall anything of this nature?

MRS. MANLEY: No, I don't think that the question ever came up. I'll tell you, it was such an accepted thing that the majors didn't want the Negroes that I don't think it was ever thought about.


MRS. MANLEY: Until Joe Bostic took those two Negroes up to Branch Rickey at Bear Mountain, I don't think that we'd ever given any thought to it.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. Did you know Judge [Kenesaw] Landis at all?


W. MARSHALL: Okay. Did your husband, do you recall?

MRS. MANLEY: No, I'm sure he didn't know him.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. This is really sort of a basic question and -- and I'm sure that, you know, you've probably gone over this before, but I -- I think it's really necessary to cover. What in your estimation -- you mentioned just -- just recently, just now, that it was kind of accepted that the majors didn't want blacks to play --



W. MARSHALL: -- in their midst. Why? Why in your estimation?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I'll tell you. Prejudice is something that I guess will always be with us, and I think that the majors, the men who owned the teams, they -- they were well-versed. They knew what it was all about. And I think they knew just what would happen, just what has happened. The Negroes would come in and start wrecking records. Wrecking records, that's a [chuckling] new phrase. But I just think that they knew. That they -- after all, as I said, all the fields that they've competed in they always showed that they were good athletes, you know. There's no question about the fact, their athletic ability. And I just feel that that little jealousy was there, and I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't still among some people. That they just don't like the 52:00way the Negroes are performing. Now, this last episode, this Reggie Jackson hitting those three home runs in one ballgame, the World Series, tying Ruth's record. I mean Ruth to ev--- all baseball fans was a -- a -- not only a legend, he was an idol. Everybody was just crazy about -- I told you. He made the -- me go to the Yankee Stadium just to see Babe Ruth play. That was all I went for because I absolutely did not know all these little intricacies. You know, little things that happened in a ballgame, and so I don't think that -- I think there are many, many white people who are not too happy about Ruth's records being tied and broken, you know. So, I just think that was one -- really was the big reason why they didn't integrate.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. There were a couple of these -- I've been doing some reading, of course, and there are a couple of reasons that have been given -- 53:00possible reasons and, you know, they all have their deficiencies and their strong points, and I'm going to mention a couple of them and maybe let you talk about them. One of the reasons that is given in a 1946 report of a joint committee of some of the major league owners was that there would be -- they would draw too many black customers to some of the ballparks like Comiskey Park or Yankee Stadium, and --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I never heard that but, of course, I could understand that because they were -- we did draw a fairly good crowd. And whenever we put on a special promotion -- now our East-West game was played every year in Comiskey Park and we always had forty and fifty thousand people. That was -- that was not a little thing that just a few people -- and sometimes our Negro fans were a little noisy. And, you know, in our park in Newark they had a great big bar 54:00right at the entrance as you entered the park. I don't think any of the other ball parks had that, but in Newark we did have. And, of course, that's one of the things that the Negroes are known to like a little stimulant. [Laughs]


MRS. MANLEY: They like to drink a little bit, you know. So were -- now, there's no question the crowds were a little bit noisy and that could have been a legitimate worry, a complaint, you know, that -- but we never had -- now, we -- at one time in Newark the crowds were getting a little too noisy for me. Now the -- we used -- always used the ballpark's help. Sell the tickets and take them and everything. So we used their police. So in Newark, they -- these few police that they had, they were older men. And I used to look at them and say "Lord, have mercy. What would happen if anything really did break out?" that they would -- so I personally hired some men on the side that they didn't know 55:00about that -- that worked in the taverns and things around Newark. And there was one time -- one day some fan got out of line and these men that I had hired picked him up, arrested him, and that -- the -- the ballpark help was very angry when they found out that I had hired these extra men. But there's no question that the ballpark police could not have handled it. So they were taken before the judge and I appeared against them. I think that surprised them, too. I think the very idea of this woman going down and -- so I appeared against -- and the judge proceeded to give them hell. [Chuckle--Marshall] And that -- from then on we didn't have any more noise. The word -- the newspapers carried the story, of course, that Mrs. Manley herself had gone down to appear against them. So from then on it was a fairly -- yeah, I mean they -- I think they -- they 56:00realized I had the cops and that I would appear against them and decided --


MRS. MANLEY: -- they better behave.


MRS. MANLEY: So that could have been a complaint because they were noisy.

W. MARSHALL: You -- you've also mentioned several times that you felt very confident as an owner, or at least -- you really were an owner.

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, a part-owner. Abe and I had a partnership in [inaudible].

W. MARSHALL: Right. That black ballplayers were skillful enough, if not more skillful, than many of their -- their counterparts in the major leagues. Yet was this the prevailing viewpoint of some of the other people in the black community? I have a -- a quote, for instance, from Sam Lacy. I think you're probably familiar with him.

MRS. MANLEY: Umhmm. Newspaperman right here.

W. MARSHALL: Right. And --

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, I know him.

W. MARSHALL: -- and he was kind of skeptical of -- and this was about 1946, that -- you know, that -- that the time was -- was right. What -- what I'm 57:00really asking here is, was your viewpoint the most accepted one, or was the rest of the black community or a large portion of it sort of brainwashed to believe that they were not skillful enough?

MRS. MANLEY: I don't think they thought about it much.

W. MARSHALL: Just didn't think about it?

MRS. MANLEY: It was just accepted that there was Negro baseball and white baseball. And I don't think there was too much thought about the reasons for it, you know. And there were just so many magni--- now, in this story that was carried in the Sporting News, this -- one of the statements that this fellow -- hold it for a minute. I want to read this to you. Just this -- this -- m--- oh, he starts off in the darnedest start up. It -- it -- the title's "A Furious Woman". It was the editorial this day. "Unless you were a fan of the former 58:00Negro Leagues, you probably never heard of Effa Manley. But she ranks in the history of the game with such women as Helen Hathaway Briven, president of the Cardinals in 1916; Joan W. Peyson, late owner of the Mets and Mrs. Peyson's daughter Linda [inaudible], now the president of the club. Mrs."--now this is the statement--"Mrs. Manley was the active partner of her husband, the late Abraham Manley, in operating the Newark Eagles in the old Negro National League for fourteen years, from 1935 through `48. She speaks with pride of her co-ownership. `We pro---'" --now this is the first quotation he's got from my story--"`We provided an opportunity for Negro players to pursue their profession and earn a living in their sport during the days when black players were barred from major league competition because of their race and color.'" Now, that's 59:00the first quotation and that [inaudible] -- the closing chapter was the biggest challenge I've ever been faced with in my life. "It will be interesting to see if Mrs. Manley, as an infuriated woman, battling for Negro rights in baseball, will be able to lead the neglected black stars to the doors of the Hall of Fame." That's a heck of a thing because it's a -- the only way they'll get through there will be with this plaque that I'm begging for now.

W. MARSHALL: Right. So really what we're talking about then is it was sort of an accepted thing with the two communities always?


W. MARSHALL: And this is just all --

MRS. MANLEY: Yes, you just -- you just didn't think about the fact that they didn't.


MRS. MANLEY: As least I -- it didn't come to my attention that there weren't --

W. MARSHALL: The -- the other point that was made, and this was made by major league owners in this report also, that it would ruin the structure of the Negro 60:00leagues, which it ultimately did.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, there's no question about that. I remember -- who was it -- darn, I should remember his name, where he said that if the majors did take the Negro ballplayers, it would wreck the Negro leagues, which it did. No -- no question there at all. The -- the transi--- -- the -- the -- the integration took place in `46 and I begged Abe in `47 to quit the next year because we dropped another twenty thousand dollars. I mean the fans deserted us to go see the boys on the white team. Deserted us like they say rats desert a ship -- sinking ship. So they -- there's no question about it. And he wouldn't quit. He was a born gambler and he wouldn't quit that year, but the next year he could see it was really stupid to try to continue, so we did quit in 1948.


W. MARSHALL: Was -- was there any real grumbling among your fellow owners, for instance, --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, they --

W. MARSHALL: -- about this?

MRS. MANLEY: -- you know, quite a few of them continued on for a few years, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- you know. They -- they tried to [inaudible] it. And then I'll tell you something else. Now -- oh, this is a -- this is a very intriguing -- this is one of the points you made in your letter. In 1948 when we quit, two other teams in our league decided to quit also. And I went to the Western League meeting that year to ask them to take in the three remaining teams because they couldn't have hardly made it on -- just on their own. And the Western League agreed, yes, they'd take them in. And they not only took them in, but they got this Negro dentist in Memphis, Tennessee, to buy my club. Well, I was thrilled to death because what he gave us was actually nothing, but 62:00my contract with him called for delivering all the contracts of all the ballplayers, all the equipment, the uniforms -- and we had just bought a new bus the year before. We paid twelve thousand five hundred dollars for it. Beautiful bus. They had -- written up on the side, "Negro World Champions." You know, we'd won the pennant. And -- so I was thrilled to death. And when I -- I hadn't gotten home good when I pick up the paper and Branch Rickey had signed Monte Irvin for his St. Paul team. Now Monte was one of the boys whose contract I had sold to Doctor Young. So that's -- when you said you heard where I had protested. So there was a young Jewish lawyer practicing in Newark who had helped finance his way through law school working for us handling publicity. Name was Jerry Kessler, Jerome Kessler. So I called Jerry in and asked him would he gamble with me on that. When Rickey took Newcombe, I couldn't open my mouth because we were still operating, and as I said the fans would have never 63:00forgiven us. In fact, I -- I -- it would have been a very unhappy thing for me to have to do to prevent a boy from going to the majors. So Jerry agreed he'd gamble with me and he proceeded to write Mr. Rickey that Mrs. Manley was going to [chuckling] [inaudible]. You know what Branch Rickey did? Monte was playing in winter ball in -- in Puerto Rica or Cuba, one or the other. Mr. Rickey wrote him that he didn't want him. Mrs. Manley was claiming him and he -- he was releasing from his agreement with him. Goodbye, period. Well, did the Negro newspapers jump on me. [Laughs] What do you think? O-o-oh-w-e-e, they started in. And, of course, which I could understand and expected, but I didn't care because I was out of the business. So Kessler first move was to contact the Yankees. Now, we played in the Yankees park, so I'm sure the Yankees knew every Negro ballplayer. I'm sure they'd scouted sometime and come to see us play, you 64:00know, to check. The Yankees turned Kessler down. They still weren't ready to take on Negro boys. His next move was to go to the Giants, and the Giants decided maybe it was time to get in on the bandwagon. And the Giants gave me five thousand dollars for Monte Irvin, which I was delighted to get --


MRS. MANLEY: -- got the Negro newspapers off of me. But imagine, five thousand dollars for Monte Irvin. If it had been a white boy, he'd have got --


MRS. MANLEY: -- been worth --

W. MARSHALL: By all means.

MRS. MANLEY: So, anyway, that's -- that's -- that was the start of the pay deal, you know.

W. MARSHALL: And he helped win -- win two pennants for them.

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah. So he -- they gave me five thousand dollars for Monte. So that's when I protested. You said in your letter, you know, that you heard --


MRS. MANLEY: -- that I had protested or something.


MRS. MANLEY: So that was it. I actually called the attorney in and he would -- I -- I -- my agreement with Kessler was he could have half of anything we could 65:00get if he'd go all the way to the Supreme Court with me. And he was willing to go all the way. He was going to fight the thing down to make it -- because I felt an issue should be made of it. So what did Branch Rickey do? He saw it -- he knew he didn't have a chance and he felt like, I guess, the publicity would have been terrible. People, even those that liked the idea of the integration, might have felt like, "Well, my God, he might have given them something." Imagine taking Jackie Robinson, Monte Irvin, and Don Newcombe and not giving [inaudible].

W. MARSHALL: Let's -- let's go back to 1945. That was the year that Branch 66:00Rickey set up what he called his United States Baseball League.

MRS. MANLEY: I received a phone call in my office from Branch Rickey's secretary asking me would I attend a meeting at the Dodgers office. Mr. Rickey wanted me to come to a meeting this day. And I -- of course, I told you they were lovely to us the first year we played in the park and no reason in the world why I wouldn't. So I proceeded to go to the meeting and I was the only owner of a Negro team that had been invited. All the newspapers, black and white, were there. There must have been, oh, thirty, forty, I don't know how many. But I was the only owner of a Negro team. And Mr. Rickey took his seat at his desk and proceeded to read from this paper that he was establishing a Negro baseball league, the United States League, and he read, you know, the 67:00[inaudible] all the details and information. When he was finished, he asked for questions. I don't think mine was the first question. I think during the first -- of course, this whole thing just caught me -- I had no idea what he'd asked me over there for, you know. So when it came my time I spoke and I said to him, "Well, Mr. Rickey, if you were this interested in Negro baseball, why in the world didn't you contact our two leagues that have been operating so many years?" "Good question, Mrs. Manley. I'm glad you asked that. Attorney Shackleford, will you answer Mrs. Manley?" Attorney Shackleford was the man that he had picked to be president of the United States League. So Attorney Shackleford's answer to me, "Mrs. Manley, both presidents of your leagues were written to, and Dr. Martin"--he was the president of the American Negro League--"wrote back he wasn't interested, and Tom Wilson"--president of our 68:00league--"didn't answer us." So Branch Rickey looked at me, "Well, does that answer you, Mrs. Manley?" I said, "Well, it's a very confusing answer, but I suppose it answers me." I mean I just did -- didn't have any idea what -- what to say or do. It was just such a startling thing. So as soon as I returned home I got on the phone and started calling all the owners of the Negro teams and told them what had happened and what was their reaction. So the reaction of all of the owners was Rickey couldn't take our parks from us. Where would he play? The -- the -- his United States League wouldn't have any place to play but his park. And where could they play. So, Mr. Rickey, he -- that was true. The owners were right about that. He couldn't take our parks. Say -- they all -- yeah, it was MacPhail. It wasn't [inaudible], because I remember he was the 69:00one that we contacted. And Mr. Rickey couldn't take any of our parks. So his United States League didn't last any time at all, but that was when he decided he'd just take the ballplayers. So he just completely outmaneuvered us, outsmarted us, or just plain raped us. I don't know what you'd say, how you'd describe it. But when he couldn't get his

United States League operating -- now, I was at that meeting. This is nothing I got from somebody else. I actually attended that meeting so I know what I'm talking about.

W. MARSHALL: Why did he invite you?

MRS. MANLEY: That's what I -- I never -- I -- the only thing I could ever figure out might have been that he might have felt I'd have gone along with him. I think he felt that -- you see, the fact we had played in Ebbets Field that first year, I think he felt that if we would go on along with his United States 70:00League, joined up, we might have gotten some of the other teams to also go along. And then he would have had a perfect set-up for the -- all the Negro players around, you know. And that's the only reason I can think that he invited me. That we had a pleasant relationship. I told you they could have put us out of there any time during the first year we played there because the crowds were so small. But we did continue to have this very pleasant relationship and I think he felt that maybe I would go along with him. That's the only reason that I can think that he invited me, because what other reason would he possibly have had?

W. MARSHALL: In -- in just doing some background research, there appear to be rather some substantial teams that were involved with his league. I -- I guess there -- the Greenlee Crawfords that was a team Gus put in.


MRS. MANLEY: Pittsburgh Crawfords.

W. MARSHALL: Was it Gus Greenlee who --


W. MARSHALL: -- began that and then the Brown Dodgers, and that -- their -- [inaudible]?

MRS. MANLEY: That m--- well, that must have been the team he made up then, that Rickey himself made up.


MRS. MANLEY: But I don't think he ever got cooperation of our established Negro league teams.

W. MARSHALL: So -- so it never -- the league really never got off the ground in the sense that it didn't get fan support and -- and where did they -- where did they end up playing?

W. MARSHALL: Well, that's it. They didn't have any places to play and -- and they couldn't take our parks from us. And the -- the -- the white owners of the parks just wouldn't go along with it. And I guess, too, the white owners probably saw what he was building up would be an area where he could have gotten all of the good Negro players, you know, for nothing if he -- I don't know. But they didn't go along with him, anyhow. And the -- the United States League didn't last but a month or two. He just decided to -- when he saw he couldn't 72:00take the parks, he just quit that and just made up his mind --


MRS. MANLEY: -- to take the players.

W. MARSHALL: Do you -- do you think that -- initially when he set it up that he really wanted to -- to form another league, or do you feel that maybe it was really a subterfuge for --


W. MARSHALL: -- signing ballplayers?

MRS. MANLEY: -- I think he had in mind probably forming another league, and where he'd have access to all these great Negro players. He knew they were great players, you know. And I think he sincerely possibly wanted to form it. Now this book, this fellow went to the library and got Branch Rickey's autobiography by, I think, it was a man --

W. MARSHALL: Arthur Mann?

MRS. MANLEY: -- named Hand -- Mann.

W. MARSHALL: Yeah, Arthur Mann.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, he got that book. And in that book there's some information from that, Rickey's autobiography. And I believe that it is telling about when Rickey started thinking first about this -- taking the -- getting Negro players. 73:00I think that was from his autobiography there. I think you'll find the book interesting reading [inaudible].



W. MARSHALL: You said you had some really, you know, pretty relationships with the Dodgers and with Branch Rickey. What -- how would you describe Branch Rickey and -- and what sort of man was he?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, naturally he was -- now, what was -- what caused him to invite me that time? I was invited one time by him to come see a game and sit at -- in his box with him. And what was it he had -- what did I feel that he had asked me to come over there? I guess it was all tying in with this plan to get involved with the Negro players. One time he invited me over and I went, and I've forgotten what teams were playing, but I was seated right in his box 74:00with him. And, naturally, it was a comfortable, you know, luxurious deal up there. And what in the heck was our conversation? I don't remember. But I -- I think that everything that he did was tied in with his plans to get involved with the Negro ballplayers. Get an open access. You know, an entre to being able to -- and then we always had a good team. The -- the Eagles were never down at the bottom. There's a book called, Only the Ball is White. Have your read that?

W. MARSHALL: I've got it right in my briefcase.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, it -- that -- that guy did a heck of a job with statistics, and he -- I have it over there. Monte sent it to me in fact. And we were always way up near the top there. Abe always -- he had a keen eye for talent 75:00and was very fortunate in being able to get cooperation from so many people, you know. And then we had one of those very nice reputations. I have heard stories that ballplayers sometimes had to wait for their salaries and all, that they didn't get paid right on time if the owners had had a bad month or something, you know. That never happened with the Eagles. The first and fifteenth, their checks were always right there waiting for them. And that helped a lot to make the boys want to play for us, you know. And, of course, that caused poor Abe to -- to go to the bank. Because no question, we didn't get in on -- the booking agents were -- this Ed Gottlieb who was one of the members of the team that -- to pick those Negroes from the past, he never would pick anybody from the Eagles. That I -- the only reason Monte got picked was he was one of the members of the committee. Because I'm sure Gottlieb didn't like the way Abe was 76:00fighting the booking agents. And that was one thing I didn't agree completely with Abe on. The fact that we didn't make up a seven-day-a-week schedule, and there were so many vacant days. I definitely tried to get Abe to go along with the booking agent thing because they -- it was a legitimate business. They weren't doing anything wrong. They weren't taking anything from us or doing -- they -- they had a legitimate business. No question. And I tried hard to -- but Abe's feeling was that the league should have established its own booking set-up and he had his right to think that way. But I -- I never had any complaints about the booking agents not being fair or -- or decent or anything. There were no -- Nat Strong, Ed Gottlieb, Bill Loesch, you know, all of them, they -- they had a legitimate business just like they'd book entertainment. You know, all the entertainers had to get booked into wherever they worked by some 77:00booking agent, so -- But, of course, in Abe's case, he was so definitely against needing outside help on that score, which he may have had something there, but this is one of those things.


MRS. MANLEY: So [laughs] there were a lot of headaches connected with running a ball --

W. MARSHALL: Yeah, --

MRS. MANLEY: -- club, believe me.

W. MARSHALL: -- I can -- I -- I can really tell that there were. So -- so Rickey sort of struck you in a sense as being sort of opportunistic?

MRS. MANLEY: Yes, definitely. He -- and he thought that he saw an -- a chance to cooperate -- get my cooperation and he felt that I might be a big help in getting him to get this set-up that he wanted, which I probably could have been. But, of course, I was in my husband's corner, you know, a hundred percent and couldn't even think about that. And I never tried to persuade Abe to go along 78:00with him. I -- I felt like Abe had a right to feel the way he felt. I --

W. MARSHALL: I -- I sense you -- I sense there's a little bit of distrust on your part as far as Rickey's motive -- motives were concerned?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I -- I knew Rickey had a reputation of being a smart baseball man. I think he was the first one to set up a farm system [inaudible]. This was a -- a chance he saw to set up the Negro farm system, I suppose, you know. I never -- I never felt he was right to take those valuable players and not give us a nickel for them. I thought that was very wrong. And we should have been -- had some little compensation. It might have helped to overcome the way the crowds deserted us, you know, if we'd have been paid something for those boys. But we were in no position to protest and he knew it. He knew we didn't dare object. [Chuckle] He had us over a barrel, in a way.

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Yes, because you really -- you wanted to continue, but on 79:00the other hand it would have been against the -- the popular --

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, the people would have never understood. You know that, "You prevented that boy from going to the majors?" Oh, my God! That would have been an unforgivable --


MRS. MANLEY: -- sin, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- which I --

W. MARSHALL: Also in 1945, while we are talking about that year, that's the year that "Happy" Chandler became commissioner of baseball. And he was a U.S. senator from Kentucky. Did you have any reaction to this, or did you just -- you know, what -- what -- what was your reaction to -- to the change?

MRS. MANLEY: I don't think that we were ever too concerned about how the major leagues operated or what their officers or anything, I don't think that that concerned our Negro baseball too much.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. So it really -- it really had little effect at all?




W. MARSHALL: You mentioned or we talked about the try-out that two ballplayers 80:00had with Branch Rickey, --


W. MARSHALL: -- but there was also another try-out in 1945 in which Jackie Robinson and Sam --

MRS. MANLEY: In Boston --

W. MARSHALL: -- Jethroe --

MRS. MANLEY: -- at Fenway.

W. MARSHALL: -- yes, the American League.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, after Joe B--- Joe Bostic was definitely the first one when he took those -- McDuffie and "Showboat" Thomas to Branch Rickey up at Bear Mountain. That was the initial -- the first time. After that several of the Negro newspapermen -- of course, that was newspaper publicity, you know, and they were getting in on the bandwagon, too. Yes, this -- or who was it took -- Sam Lacy, wasn't it, that took Joe B--- took --

W. MARSHALL: It may have been.

MRS. MANLEY: -- the boys to Boston, I think. Uh-huh.

So they all tried to get in on the bandwagon, you know.

W. MARSHALL: And nothing -- but nothing happened, right?

MRS. MANLEY: No, and -- and there were -- but that was -- that was -- I th--- let me see. Was that or was it before that that I made the trip to Washington 81:00to try to get the -- Troutman to take us in the minor leagues? I don't remember the exact year.

W. MARSHALL: Could you tell me a little bit about that?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I just -- I could see that -- that this interest was building up, you know, by leaps and bounds, and common sense just made me feel that they were going to someday do something about it. And I just felt -- I felt that I was being premature, but I felt that it was something that wasn't a bad move to make. And I positively made the trip all the way to Washington for no other reason, not to see any ball game or anything, just to see Mr. Troutman. The minor leagues were meeting there. You can find that out from the records --


MRS. MANLEY: -- which year it was. It must have been about `44, I imagine, or `4--- `43 or `-4. It was before the actual integration, of course. And as I 82:00said he never would -- did see me. I made [inaudible] right to the hotel where they were staying, you know, and -- and described my -- introduced myself and what have you. And finally she came -- Mrs. Troutman came to see me, and I see it was his way of just --

W. MARSHALL: Saying I care.

MRS. MANLEY: Yes, "I don't give a darn, I'm not interested" or what have you. So when I -- I just felt like I made no progress, this was just a trip for nothing.

W. MARSHALL: Did you talk to any of the other owners before you went? Did you let them know you were going to do this?

MRS. MANLEY: I don't believe I -- did I? Let me see. No, I don't think so.

W. MARSHALL: So, it was just sort --

MRS. MANLEY: I think that was --

W. MARSHALL: -- of a one person mission?

MRS. MANLEY: -- yeah, I think that was just something I did on my -- I think that if I'd had any luck, of course, then I would have gone to the owners and said, "Well, they're ready to take us in and what do you all think about it?" or something. No. No, I don't think there was -- there was any consultations with anybody. No, that was just something I did on my own. I just -- there was 83:00no question, as I said, and would repeat again, I saw the handwriting on the wall and I felt that would have been a wonderful outlet if they'd have let us -- accepted us as farm teams. We'd have st--- probably still been operating. And I'll tell you something else. Honest to God, I feel like our ballplayers then were so superior to the present day ones so it's not even funny. They -- they -- there's just -- these present day ballplayers, in my opinion, can't carry the gloves of our old-timers. One of these stories, this one by Jim Murray, says in there about they couldn't carry the gloves of the blacks -- the -- the minor league. They -- these boys that we had playing were doing something that they loved to do, some--- they -- they had just come up throwing balls in the back yard and hitting them with a stick, and I mean it was that -- nothing that they went to college to learn, you know, that? I don't think it's a thing you can be 84:00taught in school.


MRS. MANLEY: It's -- it's a natural thing. Just like if you have a gorgeous voice. You know, it -- you can develop it, I suppose, and train it, but it -- it's there. The voice is there. And with these ballplayers, our old-time ballplayers, believe me, were so superior to most all of these playing today. Now, of course, something like Reggie Jackson pulled last night, you've got to admire. And -- and, of course, Hank Aaron came from our league and Willie Mays came from our league. All those who went in the majors and looked like a million dollars came from our Negro leagues, you know. So these present day -- now I was halfway being impressed with Joe Morgan, but he hasn't come through this year too good. So I don't know how he's going to work out.

W. MARSHALL: He's had the kind of an off-year that many people would interpret --


W. MARSHALL: -- as a great year.

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, so -- and then, too, the -- the fact that there was some dissension on that team.


MRS. MANLEY: No question about it. And the ballplayers, did I tell you, they 85:00have a word they use and it -- it -- when they -- when I first heard it I was -- I said, "Well, I'll be darned." But after a little -- short time I -- I realized it was the most important word in their vocabulary and the word is "satisfied". "I'm satisfied." If they're not satisfied, all you got is a guy in a uniform. It was the damnedest thing I've ever seen. You've got to cater to them back and they've got to be happy inside. And in our -- the case of our old-time Negro ballplayers, they were happy doing what they did. As I said, they weren't really working, they were -- they were actually enjoying their -- their -- the thing that they were doing. And there's no question about it, that this present day group don't measure up too good. I see these high-salaried Negro ballplayers today come up there where a little bit of a single would win a ball game, stand up and get called out on strikes, I can't believe it. Our boys 86:00would have at least touched the ball [chuckling] --

W. MARSHALL: Sure. Sure.

MRS. MANLEY: -- if they didn't get a clean hit. I don't know. They're just -- they're not in the same class.

W. MARSHALL: Let -- let's move on to -- to next year, 1946, and that was the year, of course, that Branch Rickey signed Jackie Robinson.

MRS. MANLEY: Yes. Jackie, R--- uh-huh. The year we won the pennant.

W. MARSHALL: Right. [Chuckle--Mrs. Manley] That was a -- a great year for you in many --

MRS. MANLEY: [Inaudible].

W. MARSHALL: -- respects.

MRS. MANLEY: [Inaudible].

W. MARSHALL: What was your reaction to -- to the signing? Of course, you know, you knew he wasn't being sent immediately to the Dodgers but probably to a minor league club, which he was.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I'll tell you, now, my -- I have to tell you this, I may be -- may bore you, but it kind of ties in with explaining my feeling. Abe and I married in 1933 and I immediately -- and, of course, I was living in Harlem. I 87:00immediately became very much involved in civic affairs. I was attending a dinner one night and sitting next to a big -- who was it being given for, some big important person, I don't know, Joe Louis or somebody. I was sitting next to this editor of a Negro newspaper, and we got into this conversation about how hard it was for Negroes to find employment. They -- they just -- they weren't hired for anything except maids or, you know, doing housework. And so he -- this man said to me, Mr. Adair, he says, "Mrs. Manley, you know, Mrs. Bloomstein's a fine woman." Bloomstein was a big department store on 125th Street, the biggest one in Harlem. So he said, "I believe if you'd ask her she'd hire a Negro because she's an awfully fine woman." I said, "You really think so?" He said, "Yes, I do." So to make this long story short, I didn't go right to Mrs. Bloomstein, I called in some women friends and -- and people who 88:00were important in the neighborhood and we were meeting, turning -- going around in circles, getting nowhere fast. Finally one of them suggested that her minister would be interested, and she spoke to him and he was. Reverend John Johnson. He's still high up -- I don't know if he's still active or not. I doubt that he is. The last Christmas card to me was from some other place. And so Reverend Johnson was interested, and the first thing he did was to change our name. We -- we were calling ourselves the Harlem Women's something, I don't know. And he gave us the name Citizens League for Fair Play. I think that was it. Citizens League for Fair Play. So he got -- he got the -- some other ministers interested and we collected sales checks for two weeks from Bloomstein's. And over that time we collected seven thousand dollars worth of 89:00sales checks. And had -- when we had these checks, Mr-- Reverend Johnson took them to Mr. Bloomstein, told him we knew this money had been spent with him by Negroes in the past two weeks and we were asking him the next time he hired a sales clerk, would he hire a Negro? We didn't ask him to fire anybody or turn things upside-down. So, of course, that caught Bloomstein by surprise. And Reverend Johnson had to make his second visit and Bloomstein still wasn't ready. So [chuckle] the next visit Reverend Johnson took me and a lawyer from Harlem and there were -- I never will forget the conversation was pro and con, going backwards and forwards. So finally I said, "May I say something?" I think they were all glad to have me say something because they --

[End of Tape #1, Side #2]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #1]

MRS. MANLEY: I said, "You know, Mr. Bloomstein, we think just as much of our 90:00young colored girls as you do of your young white girls, and there's just no work for them." I said, "The only thing they can find to do"--oh, Bloomstein had his lawyer with him at this -- at this meeting--I said, "The only thing they can find to do is work in someone's home as a maid or become prostitutes." Well, when I said that this lawyer almost went through the roof, and I really think he was sincere that -- at the thought of girls being pr--- "Oh, Mrs. Manley, don't say such a thing. That's -- oh, my Lord almighty." He was really awfully upset. I said, "Well, it's the truth. I'm only telling you what's true." And I really think that knocked them and that broke the thing. They decided they would --

W. MARSHALL: I'll be darned.

MRS. MANLEY: -- hire the Negro girls. And I have -- that's in my scrapbook, too, a great big page. `Bloomstein's Are Hiring Negro Clerks.' So I -- I went into all that to tell you that's been my background of being concerned about the 91:00Negro employment thing. You know, just like I told you I had contacted Puerto Rico and the boys got this winter ball. Now I've got to tell you my story because I know you're looking at me and looking at Abe's picture and all and you're wondering, "What in the hell is my story?" My mother was a white woman, and her first husband was a Negro by whom she had four children. And at -- Mother -- Mother was a beautiful seamstress. I -- I -- I learned a lot of it from her. I always used to make everything I wore. My overcoats, suits, everything. I always sewed well. And she -- in the course of her sewing, she sewed for only wealthy white people -- she was a good looking woman. I have a picture over there if you want to see her. Very pretty g--- woman. In the 92:00course of her sewing she met my father who was a wealthy white man. He had a seat on the New York Stock Exchange. Name was John Marcus Bishop. And I was born as a result. And Mother's husband, Mr. Brooks, sued my father for alienating his wife's affections and won the suit. Now we're talking about seventy-seven years ago. The suit was only for ten thousand dollars which, of course, would be hundred thousands of dollars today, I guess. And Mr-- . Mis--- my father br--- paid the -- naturally he -- Mr. Brooks won the suit. And then my father voluntarily gave ten thousand for me, which I've never seen a nickel of. And then Mother and Mr. Brooks parted and she married another Negro and had two more children. Well, I have always been very fond of all my half-sisters 93:00and half-brothers, the darnedest thing, and that's the reason I have this little four-unit house. There was one brother -- one sister was a registered nurse. One brother was the supervisor in the post office for years. He was in World War I and came back and he got this job with the post office and -- and continued to be advanced until he became a supervisor on the night shift. And I bought this place thinking both of them were going to come out here to live and I wanted us to be close together, but not right -- I didn't want them right in the house with me, --


MRS. MANLEY: -- so each one of us could have an apartment. So I am really white, but I have come up as a Negro due to the fact that all my brothers and sisters were Negroes. I remember once -- funniest thing how I remember it. When I was very young, in the first grade, the principal sent for me. At that time Negroes and whites just weren't supposed to mix. You're talking about -- 94:00that was, [inaudible], well, it's about seventy years ago. I'm seventy-seven now. And she sent for me to ask me why I was always with these colored children. And when I went back home and told -- I didn't know what to say to her, I went back and told Mother. I've always felt how stupidly Mother reacted. I feel she should have made some effort to talk to the principal or something, explain things. But Mother said to me, "You go back and tell her you're just as white as she is." Well, that was ridiculous. But I'm saying -- telling you this to say I have come up in this entirely Negro atmosphere.

W. MARSHALL: Yes. Yes. That's interesting.

MRS. MANLEY: There's been practically -- I've often wondered what it would be like associating [chuckling] with white people because -- is it -- and -- and since Abe died I've married twice; again, both of them Negroes. [Laughs] It does seem funny that at some time I wouldn't have gotten involved with some white per--- man, you know. But n--- n--- in -- in my long and unusual life 95:00history, and even being involved in the baseball and everything, I never -- there was never any Caucasian. It was the darnedest thing. But I was just -- told you I was very fond of all these half brothers and sisters. There was -- the one of them died owing me a couple thousand dollars. [Inaudible]. Alfonso was his name, and Fony was his short name. And so it's just been one of those unusual things. Of course, now many occasions in my life I've always gone and traveled as white. I didn't think about going visiting or going to any strange city or hotel anything or, you know, I've always -- which I am white. My Mother's father was Indian, so I do have a little bit of -- Mother's mother was a German woman and her father was an Indian, so my skin is kind of olive if you look at me, if you look close, and I think that's probably from Mother's dad. 96:00So I'm only telling you that because I know that even you must have been thinking that all this conversation, I'm always talking about the Negroes and I guess you figured, "What's this white woman doing so concerned about the Negro?" So that's what's happened. I've just come up entirely in this Negro atmosphere.

W. MARSHALL: Yeah. I couldn't --


W. MARSHALL: -- I couldn't tell, so I assumed nothing. [Chuckle]

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I mean, but you've got to think.


MRS. MANLEY: I mean common sense tells me you -- you -- you've got -- because you -- you've -- you -- you've got to feel like, "Well, what the heck? Doesn't she -- didn't she care anything about white people?" But I just wasn't around white people. I was just completely around Negroes.

W. MARSHALL: Well, would this --

MRS. MANLEY: All those pictures you see over there are always with Negroes. [Chuckle]

W. MARSHALL: With -- with this -- this background in -- in mind then, and having, you know, always been in -- in -- we've talked about, you know, there were two communities type thing, being in -- in one community and not the other, --



W. MARSHALL: -- did -- did -- you know, this -- this Jackie Robinson signing have any impact on you? What -- what --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I said I think that's probably one thing that -- that -- that caused me [sighs] not to really be too concerned because this white and black thing had always been kind of part of my life, you know. It was -- it was something that -- now if I had been a strictly white woman who had just been around whites all my life, I might have felt a little tiny bit different about it. But I had been around, and -- and this Negro problem had always concerned me. Like that's why I told you about this Bloomstein thing.


MRS. MANLEY: So it was one of those things that I just don't think now -- I don't think it affected me too much one or the other. Of course, I didn't like our business being wrecked. That was a very unpleasant thing. And I definitely 98:00didn't feel Rickey was right to take those men. I felt that he should have given us something for them. I still feel, and said that, and to tell you the truth, I feel that's why the Dodgers don't win the pennant. I just don't think they deserve to win it. I honestly think that this is get--- you know, I'm a great believer you get out of life what you put in it.

W. MARSHALL: There's no big Dodger in the sky.

MRS. MANLEY: [Laughs] Good or bad. If it -- you ta--- it comes to you when you least expect it. That is true. You can bet your life on that. I've seen it happen too frequently. And I just -- every time the Dodgers get beat I say, "They don't deserve to win, what they did to Negro baseball." They could have handled things differently. Now, of course, in Rickey's case, when he set up his United States League, he was planning to become seriously involved with the Negro baseball and it might have been a better set-up than ours, I don't know. He might have, due to his savvy and know-how and, you know, experience and all, 99:00he might have set up a -- a better organization than we had and might -- I don't know, might have been able to help out with the Negro baseball. But I still have always felt that taking those three ballplayers, a million dollars worth of property, and not even saying thank you for it was very wrong. So that -- that telling you my background is to -- to explain to you why I -- my interests in this Negro deal. It's all I've ever known. Isn't that funny?

W. MARSHALL: It helps me with your --


W. MARSHALL: -- reaction very much.

MRS. MANLEY: -- I've -- I have -- yes. I have -- as I said, anytime I ever traveled anywhere I always went to the finest white hotels to stay, you know. That is with -- did not -- if I traveled with the base--- if I went to see a baseball game, Abe was there and I stayed right at the colored hotels with him. But at -- by myself on my own, and one year after -- let me see, after we won the pennant, I took -- I went to Cuba. I stopped in Miami Beach and I planned 100:00to go down to South America, but I ended up coming out here to -- to Los Angeles. I had a very dear friend out here, colored. And -- and I came out here and visited the Carpenters. And that's how I come to be out here. I liked it so much and my visit made such an impression, you know, that I came back here to live. And then, too, I came out here to marry a fellow that I knew long before I knew Abe. Since Abe died I've married twice.


MRS. MANLEY: Both of them musicians. Played the piano and sang for a living, and [chuckles] I th--- oh, I did tell you about Austin asking me was I ready to settle for records yet? [Laughs]


MRS. MANLEY: So -- and they were Negroes. I mean it's -- it's just all I've ever been around.

W. MARSHALL: Right. Sure, I understand. Some --

MRS. MANLEY: This is probably an unusual interview. You're probably --


W. MARSHALL: Very much so, but I -- I expected it to be so. Some -- some black writers scorned Rickey at the time of the signing of Robinson for attempting, so to speak, to -- to be the Abraham Lincoln of -- of baseball. Was there any -- was this a general feeling or just sort of a --

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, I don't think -- well, who did?

W. MARSHALL: I don't have -- I don't have any --

MRS. MANLEY: I don't -- I didn't know of anybody that objected. I thought everybody thought it was grand.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. That's a good point.

MRS. MANLEY: I thought that it -- that -- all those that I talked to or were around were very excited about the Negroes breaking into the majors, you know, which I myself was in a way except that as -- it did wreck our business and --


MRS. MANLEY: -- I do feel it was an unfair approach. I feel that it should have been handled much differently. But -- and as I told you, we had -- we few who had talked about it had agreed that if they'd asked us, Monte is the boy who 102:00would have -- Monte could do everything. And as I told you, that arm of his was exceptional. He just had one of those magnificent arms. And -- and he was a gentleman and he was well-ed--- Robinson was no better educated. He -- I've had -- I've had people say, "Well, Robinson had -- was going to college." Monte had as much education as Robinson. There was no -- no superiority there in the Robinson thing. And I don't know why Rickey decided to pick Robinson but he did, and Robinson conducted himself very nicely and I'm -- I suppose and, naturally, I wasn't around either.

W. MARSHALL: Hmm. Let me go back a little bit again. Commissioner Chandler did have a role in --


W. MARSHALL: -- Commissioner Chandler did have a role in -- in Robinson's signing and --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, this -- that's what this newspaper guy I talked to since you 103:00called and -- wrote me and called me, and he said that there was no question quite a few of the white teams felt that Chandler should have stopped it. Now how could he have stopped it? I don't under--- see how he could have -- what he could have done.


MRS. MANLEY: If one of the team owners decided to hire the Negro, what could -- what could Chandler have done?

W. MARSHALL: Chandler tells the story that it was fifteen to one --

MRS. MANLEY: Against it?


MRS. MANLEY: Well, there's no question -- this fellow told me, he said that -- he said, you -- that it was -- never came out in -- in the newspapers, it was never publicly discussed, but he says quite a few of the owners were very unhappy --


MRS. MANLEY: -- about it.


MRS. MANLEY: Which is understa--- as I told you when -- when the -- when Kessler tried to interest the Yankees in my proposition, they turned him down 104:00flat. So they were --


MRS. MANLEY: -- they were one of the teams that were definitely not ready to take a -- and imagine, a ballplayer like Monte and they -- they must have known about Monte.


MRS. MANLEY: I mean he was -- Monte was a -- quite a star in high school, you know, and they definitely had to know about him. And he was one of those who went to -- let me see, he went to Mexico, I believe, for a year when the Mexicans tried -- they -- they were after our ballplayers. I mean they -- they were -- I understand they were millionaires. Two brothers, I believe.

W. MARSHALL: Yeah. Well, you're talking about the Pasquels.

MRS. MANLEY: The Pasquels. Uh-huh.


MRS. MANLEY: One of them got killed, didn't he, in an automobile --

W. MARSHALL: I don't know.

MRS. MANLEY: -- accident or s--- I think that someone --

W. MARSHALL: I don't know.

MRS. MANLEY: -- told me.

W. MARSHALL: Okay, so really, you know, the role that -- that Chandler had in this, and he did support Branch Rickey --


W. MARSHALL: -- at least that's his claim.


W. MARSHALL: And -- and that, of course, gave Branch Rickey just what he needed.



W. MARSHALL: But that really wasn't common knowledge to you --


W. MARSHALL: -- at the time?

MRS. MANLEY: -- because this fellow who was giving me this little gossip said it wasn't generally known. It was just talked about behind closed doors. That the owners felt he should have stopped it. Now but what could he have done?

W. MARSHALL: I don't think he could have done anything.

MRS. MANLEY: I can't see how he could have told Rickey he couldn't hire somebody. [Chuckle]

W. MARSHALL: Right. Branch Rickey, once he -- he signed Jackie Robinson, spoke before a group of -- of Negroes in Brooklyn, I believe, soon after the signing, and he made a speech in which he said it's -- sort -- in sort of summing it up, he said that, "It's up to you not to spoil Jackie Robinson." In other words, no parades, no dinners or banquets, --


MRS. MANLEY: Yeah, --

W. MARSHALL: -- no --

MRS. MANLEY: -- I -- I didn't know about that.

W. MARSHALL: You -- you weren't involved with that?


W. MARSHALL: That's what I'm getting at.


W. MARSHALL: You had nothing to do with that?

MRS. MANLEY: I ha--- I didn't know about that.


MRS. MANLEY: No, this is new information for me on that.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. Well, that's -- that's important. I won't go any further into that --


W. MARSHALL: -- until maybe later on when [chuckle--Mrs. Manley] we turn the tape off. How well did you know Jackie Robinson, if at all?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, I didn't know him at all.


MRS. MANLEY: I -- I -- in fact, I'll tell you the truth. I knew very few of the western players. Most of those that I knew at all were eastern players, you know.

W. MARSHALL: You only knew him by reputation then, --

MRS. MANLEY: Yes, just --

W. MARSHALL: -- of course, and seeing him play?

MRS. MANLEY: -- and -- yes. Well, [inaudible] he didn't have any better reputation than many others of them, you know. He -- he wasn't ever spoken of as a superstar -- [Chuckle]


MRS. MANLEY: -- [chuckling] [inaudible].

W. MARSHALL: Did you ever have occasion to meet him after his signing and --


MRS. MANLEY: No. I've never met Jackie Robinson. Um-um.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. What kind of chances did you give him to succeed in your own mind? Did you -- ?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, of course, as I said to you, I've always felt that the Negroes were superior athletes. I -- just like I condemn them as business people. They just don't seem to go in for business in a big way. We have a couple of insurance companies that are quite outstanding and -- and -- but on the whole they just haven't been people that have gone in for business much. But when it comes down to God-given talent, voices and athletic ability, I don't think there'll ever be anybody close to the Inkspots, you know.


MRS. MANLEY: One of their records, I -- I just keep the -- their records on all the time, you know, and I've got that one of Bing out when -- after he passed on.


MRS. MANLEY: Has -- so many of his beautiful -- "I've Got the World on a 108:00String," "Thanks,"--you probably don't even know these songs--"Down On the Old Ox Road," "How Deep is the Ocean?" "My Honey's Loving Arms," "Please," "Some of These Days," --

W. MARSHALL: You're right, I don't.

MRS. MANLEY: -- [inaudible] -- but they were classics. They were songs that are so superior to this -- what they're writing today calling songs. So it's just not --

W. MARSHALL: Did -- did you follow -- follow Jackie Robin--- Robinson's progress at all during that year, 1947?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, well, of course I had to be interested in how he did, you know. And I -- I heard -- always heard about how unpleasant some of the other ballplayers and the fans made it for him, you know.

W. MARSHALL: Do you remember any stories in particular?


W. MARSHALL: Do you remember any stories in particular to pass on to me?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, nothing that I would want to quote, but -- the--- I understand a lot of the fans in many of the cities were using that term, "nigger", which is not supposed to be used, you know. And -- and there were -- oh, I understand he -- he had a very unhappy time of it. There's no question 109:00about it. And I -- I understand he had a quick temper, too.


MRS. MANLEY: That he -- he would -- which it -- some of the things he went through, I guess it was enough to arouse his temper, you know, to make him kind of angry, hot and bothered.

W. MARSHALL: There are a couple of teams that threatened to strike, the Cardinals in particular and the Phillies. Did you know about that?

MRS. MANLEY: No. No, I didn't know that.

W. MARSHALL: Okay, we'll talk about that after, too.

MRS. MANLEY: I didn't know that. Threat--- if a*Negro played on it.

W. MARSHALL: That's right.

MRS. MANLEY: Let me see. Did I ever hear that? You know, you're going back so far. My memory's not too good nowadays. W. MARSHALL: Well, I've had that --

MRS. MANLEY: It never was too good. In fact, I've always -- I keep the paper and pencil handy to make notes.

W. MARSHALL: I'd -- I'd be [inaudible] so I'm just -- I just want to -- I wanted to -- I'm trying just to -- to pick your memory.

MRS. MANLEY: Now that you -- now that you've brought that up, I believe I did 110:00hear once that -- I think it was the Phillies, wasn't it?


MRS. MANLEY: I think I did hear once that the Phillies -- W. MARSHALL: Robinson had a terrible time with the Phillies.

MRS. MANLEY: -- that the Phillies were very unhappy about it. Uh-huh.

W. MARSHALL: Yeah, Ben, you mean Ben Chapman? Because --

MRS. MANLEY: No, I don't remember. I think I do remember that the Phillies were very unhappy about it. Umhmm.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. You -- there was also another player that was signed at the same time that -- he's almost been lost in the shuffle. He played for the -- your team for a little bit of time. He's a pitcher named John Wright.

MRS. MANLEY: He never played for me, I don't --

W. MARSHALL: He didn't play?

MRS. MANLEY: -- think, it -- it was Baltimore he came from. Right. Umhmm. Yeah, the -- well, there were a couple of others after Robinson and Newcombe and Campanella. There were a couple of others that did well.

W. MARSHALL: [Inaudible].

MRS. MANLEY: In fact, I'll tell you the truth. As I said, after the five thousand dollars from the Giants, it was a bargain basement rush by all the teams to get -- get all the Negroes they could for this lousy five thousand 111:00dollars. And, of course, the poor Negro teams, they had to take it because they guessed it was one of those things [chuckling] --

W. MARSHALL: You had -- you had three major players. I mean, three that -- that -- that really made it big. We've talked a lot about Monte Irvin and some about Larry Doby and a little bit about Don Newcombe, but maybe we could talk just briefly about each of them. Well, why don't we just start with Don Newcombe and -- and what you recall about him and --

MRS. MANLEY: Well, the funniest thing about Newcombe [chuckle] -- Newcombe came to the door -- this -- the book has it that he w--- came to the office, I think, but he didn't, he came to my apartment. I didn't know Newcombe, but this fellow that brought him was one of our rabid fans and I knew him and it was during the war and I was -- talk about war conscious. Boy, I mean my life was completely given over to the war effort. I told you I was wearing a uniform, serving on 112:00the gasoline panel. So I was strictly a -- a citizen who was very war conscious. And here's this great big fine looking boy at the door, and then this man I knew was one of our fans. And we were leaving for camp the next day. Of course, everybody always knew when the Eagles would leave for camp. It was a big event in Newark. We -- we left from this Negro hotel and all the fans used to gather around. So he says, "Miss Manley, this -- th--- I brought you this boy. He wants to go to camp with the Eagles." So I said to him, "Well, where -- what does he do?" He said, "He's a pitcher." And my first words to Newcombe, "How is it a big, fine looking boy like you isn't in the service?" Because that's all I had -- and Newcombe's answer to me, I remember it like it was yesterday, "I've been in and out. I knew what to do." That was his answer. 113:00So I said, "Well, the -- the team is leaving in the morning," and I said, "I'll tell Abe that you -- you were by. I won't promise you he'll take you, but if you want to be there, [inaudible]." So when Abe came in I told him that this fellow that we knew had brought this boy up. He'd been pitching on a l--- little semi-pro team out -- right near Newark, in Elizabeth is where he lived at that time I think. And I said, "Abe, he is a great big strapping fellow and he might be of some help." And I -- but, of course, that -- that was Abe's department anyhow. I had nothing to do with it. So sure enough Newcombe was there the next morning and Abe took him. So he didn't look like anything in camp. He was absolutely next door to nothing. And that year -- [Mackey?] was the manager and we ended up -- oh, no, we kept -- kept Newcombe for the year, and that year Newcombe went to Cuba and they sent him back home. Cuba or Puerto 114:00Rico, I don't know which one. But they didn't really keep him. He couldn't pitch. And he just never did impress us as a -- much of a pitcher. But apparently Rickey -- he's had so much experience with developing players, and he evidently felt like, well, the fact that he was as big and strong as he was that he could throw hard and they were going to show him what to do and how to do it and what have you. And he took him and put him right on the farm team. And I think he was on Rickey's farm team two or three years before he brought him up.

W. MARSHALL: Right. He was with [inaudible] and Montreal and a bunch of other teams.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, he -- he literally didn't know a thing. Now the other boys that Rickey took, he brought them right up because they were all ready to step in the majors. And, of course, in the case of Doby, when -- when [Bill] Veeck called -- Abe had told me that Veeck was going to call because Veeck's head scout had been scouting the Negro baseball ever since the integration happened and had decided that Doby was the best looking of all the -- the Negro players. 115:00And Abe had come one day and said to me, "We could be getting a call any day from Bill Veeck. He wants Doby." So sure enough the next day Veeck called and, of course, I was expecting the call and I said, "Well, what did you plan to give me for him, Mr. Veeck?" He said, "I plan to give you ten thousand dollars." I said, "Well, I'm not a millionaire but I am financially secure, I think, and ten thousand dollars looks like ten cents. I know very well if that was a white boy and a free agent you'd give him a hundred thousand. But if you feel you're being fair offering me ten, I guess I'll have to take it." He says, "Well, if I keep him thirty days, I'll give you five more." I said, "Well, [inaudible] I appreciate it." So I said, "I've got to call my husband. We're partners. He's in Washington." I said, "I'll promise I'll call you right back." So I called Abe and I told him. Abe said, "Effa, we couldn't let Larry 116:00go for that kind of money. That's ridiculous." I said, "Abe, what can we do? We're just in no position to bargain. It's just one of those things that just -- " So I pleaded so hard. Abe said, "Well, if you want to do it, okay." And I called Veeck back and he sent a fellow east to get Abe -- Lena Horne's first husband, I think it was William Horne then. He sent him east to get Doby. And I remember the last thing I said to Doby, I said, "Doby, keep hitting the ball out of the park. That's the important thing everybody wants to see is a home run." So it's -- it's -- the -- the whole story has been just one of those kind of things where the strong have taken advantage of the weak. And, of course, that's true of life. I learned that all through life.

W. MARSHALL: Did -- did either you or your husband know Veeck? Had -- had they known -- had you known -- MRS. MANLEY: Veeck?

W. MARSHALL: -- Veeck previously?

MRS. MANLEY: No. No, didn't know him.

W. MARSHALL: You had any -- much contact with him since?


MRS. MANLEY: No. I sa--- one day I went to a ballgame when his team was playing in Yankee Stadium I think, and I went down to his box to talk to him. There was a police standing at the entrance of the box to keep anybody from bothering him, and I told him who I was, so he went there and I as--- I went down to ask him how Doby was doing. He said he was doing very good. He was quite satisfied. So that's been about the --

W. MARSHALL: Extent of it?

MRS. MANLEY: -- extent of our conversations.

W. MARSHALL: When did -- when did Doby join the team -- the -- the Eagles? He was a second baseman with you, wasn't he?

MRS. MANLEY: He -- he played second base most of the time, yes. The -- the year? I couldn't tell you the exact year. He was with us when we won the pennant I know. I -- I can't remember the exact year, but it must have been late in the `40s. Of course, we won the pennant in `46 --

W. MARSHALL: So, around `45 or so.

MRS. MANLEY: -- and he was with us. It b--- might have been -- been around 118:00four or five, yeah.

W. MARSHALL: It was -- he was kind of a -- kind of a -- or probably still is a sort of an introverted person, isn't he?

MRS. MANLEY: Very, very quiet. Quite a nice gentleman. No -- one of those -- in fact, all the boys on our team were nice. We didn't have any roughnecks. No -- no hard to handle problem boys. They were -- I guess they -- I guess when they got around Abe Manley they figured that they -- no, they were just nice fellows. All those at -- I look at all those pictures. Davis, Hooker and -- [inaudible] on all of them. They were all just nice fellows. Harvey, Day. Some of them my heart just aches for. That Leon Day. Oh, p---

W. MARSHALL: A great pitcher.

MRS. MANLEY: -- oh. He -- he played every place on the field except catch. The only thing he -- I don't mean he filled in, he played them. Every position. But he was such a magnificent pitcher that we ended up using him entirely as a 119:00pitcher. But he is one of those tragedies of being born a few years too soon. Earlier --

W. MARSHALL: But when you -- when -- were you the one that talked to Doby?


W. MARSHALL: Were you -- you the one that first broke the news to Doby that the Indians wanted him?

MRS. MANLEY: Let's see. I don't know whether I was the first one -- no, I doubt it. I imagine Abe was the first one to tell him.

W. MARSHALL: Did you talk to him -- y--- you mentioned you did talk to him and told him, "Keep hitting those home runs." What was his reaction?

MRS. MANLEY: Yeah. Well, the last -- the last thing wh--- when he -- what did he -- I guess he must have come to the office to get what money was due him or something I suppose, because I was the last one to saw him -- to see him. And when he was -- I -- going out the door I remember saying to him, "Keep hitting the ball out of the park." [Chuckle] So he tried to. But he was -- he was a lovely gentleman. I knew his mother, too. And, in fact, Abe and I were godparents for his first baby. I got a picture up there on the wall th--- that --


W. MARSHALL: So you've had quite a bit of contact with him since then?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, it -- it -- we always had a friendly relationship with all the players. This -- this picture on the wall, it was snowing that day, we went to Patterson for the christening -- the baby's christening, and so -- it's one of the -- I -- I like pictures. I get a big kick out of looking at pictures and they all have a story behind them. This picture here--this is off of the record completely, don't --

W. MARSHALL: Do you need me to [interruption in taping] --

MRS. MANLEY: Did you ever hear of Florence Mills?

W. MARSHALL: I don't think I have.

MRS. MANLEY: We -- we've never had -- there's been no other entertainer like her, black or white. She was really in a class all by herself.

[End of Tape #2, Side #1]

[Begin Tape #2, Side #2]

MRS. MANLEY: -- huge stage singing, and she was just something else. Funny thing. She went to Europe and just set Europe on fire and came back and wasn't back anytime before she was dead. She had an operation and she really didn't need to bad. But now where -- where the Florence Mills thing comes in, her 121:00sister got a job during the war entertaining soldiers. So Maude, that was Florence's sister, she came to me to ask me to lend her the bus to take the entertainers to the camp. Fort Dix was in New Jersey.

W. MARSHALL: Yes, I knew that it was.

MRS. MANLEY: And I couldn't use the bus for anything but the ballplayers. We had -- the license called for just strictly transporting the baseball team, nothing else. But I hired the bus for her all summer. And after the summer was drawing to a close, what was it? Forty-two dollars a week I think it was then. And we had no problem at all. The entertainers were delighted to come and go. We met at this certain spot in Newark and they were always there right on time and several of the entertainers married soldiers you know. [Laughs]


MRS. MANLEY: You know, they met soldiers down there. So we're -- the -- the 122:00program was just beautiful. And I really don't know anything that -- in my life that I've enjoyed much more. And we carried it on for the entire duration of the war. And there was never any problem getting the entertainers to show up and -- in fact, you didn't have to tell them. After that first day, they all kn--- and the army always had dinner for us when we got down there. I went down with them almost every week. I enjoyed seeing them and -- and the entertainers -- the Negroes, as I said, as entertainers -- you know, when it comes down to singing and dancing -- some of that's in my scrapbook, too, the pictures. The -- one of the papers -- I never ex--- that's another thing, William, that's so funny. I have never asked for publicity but it seems to have always followed me. I said I guess my very inception, being born like I was, you know, with that scandal attached to it, there must have been something in my horoscope 123:00because the publicity has just always seemed to be around me for some reason. And now, I -- this -- this Sporting News story has started a terrific amount of controversy, me complaining about that committee disbanding without naming these really and truly wonderful, outstanding, great Negro ballplayers just doesn't make any sense at all. And this last letter just about a week or two or ago from the president of the baseball Hall of Fame telling me he was -- wait a minute, I think I'm going to put my hand right on it, telling me he was in sympathy with me over that plaque deal. And I would -- that would just be the most wonderful thing that ever happened if I could get that -- [interruption in taping] This was a le--- the one that -- this is the first letter I got from the president of baseball Hall of Fame. He was a long time answering. I had 124:00written him asking would he ask the committee -- well, anyway the answer will tell you about it. "Please excuse my delay in -- in answering your letter of June 25th. I have many excuses which I will not bore you with at this time. I will be glad to bring to the attention of our board of directors on August the 7th your request that a plaque be hung in the Hall with the -- the names of a few of these really outstanding great Negro ballplayers of the past. With all good wishes --" Now that's from the president of the baseball Hall. And since then I've had a -- quite a lot of the letters telling me they're all in favor of the plaque. Now whether the plaque will actually get hung or not -- do you think there's any chance of it getting hung?

W. MARSHALL: Yes, I do.

MRS. MANLEY: I mean these -- these big -- these big time guys bringing it to 125:00the board of dire--- now the board of directors -- he brought this petition of mine and what they did was expand the commit--- veterans' committee from sixteen to I think eighteen or twenty or something. They put four or five more men on. The only Negro on it is Campanella which I don't expect much cooperation from. I saw Campanella when he was out here once when he was on that committee and I said to him, "Campy, how in the world have you missed naming Mackey?" He admits that Mackey taught him all he knew about catching. And Mackey was th--- managing my team the year we won the pennant and he was one of the -- I mean just great, great, great ballplayers. And he -- Campy's answer to me, "Oh, yes, Mackey." That -- just that I -- I just got the feeling he didn't have much 126:00voice or something. I --


MRS. MANLEY: -- don't know what in the world.


MRS. MANLEY: But it just doesn't make any sense to me that -- that those kind of fellows should be completely ignored if they were going to -- I -- as I said to them when I wrote -- I wrote this to them -- the letter I wrote to the commissioner. I said, "Dear Commissioner, I've just received a letter from Mr. [inaudible], historian of baseball's Hall of Fame, telling me you were going to set up a committee to review the entire system of naming members to the Hall of Fame. I am sure the committee will do a good job and will make the correct decisions." Paragraph. "The reason for this letter, I have been very unhappy with the job done by the Committee on Negro Ballplayers that has decided to disband after naming only nine men, two of them theirselves, and issuing a 127:00statement to the newspapers that they had completed their job. How could they honestly feel they had done a complete job while ignoring men like Mackey, Wells, Lundy, etc., etc., etc. It would have been better if they had never been set up." I really do feel that way, that -- really. "I am sure you have heard by now that I am pleading for a plaque to be hung to be in the Hall with the names of some of these great Negro ballplayers of the past. The names should be listed alphabetically so as not to show any preference. Is this asking too much? Please give some thought to my request." Now the commissioner himself has never answered. But one of the members on his committee, [Reischler?], one of the --

W. MARSHALL: Yes, I know him.

MRS. MANLEY: -- [inaudible], well, he wrote me. Just a few days ago I received it, and they're talking about it. I mean I've -- I definitely have them talking. There's no question about that. They are -- they are definitely 128:00wondering when -- when Effa Man--- and I think they may feel like this move they made might shut me up, named -- add these additional men to the veterans' committee, you know, might be a good way to shut --

W. MARSHALL: It might.

MRS. MANLEY: -- Effa Manley up, because I really don't see -- now the on--- the ace in the hole that I've got is your Sporting News. Now when that editor came out with an editorial, "A Furious Woman," and I -- I just read you the -- it's -- the copy's in there.

W. MARSHALL: Great. I've got that. Right.

MRS. MANLEY: But he has written me, oh, several times and asked me please to keep him informed -- The Sporting News. "Dear Mrs. Manley, Thanks very much for your letter of August 15th which included a copy of the letter you received from Clifford [inaudible]. I was pleased to see that progress is being made and that your efforts are starting to bear fruit." Now, that's just -- that's one 129:00letter. Here's another from The Sporting News. "Thanks very much for your -- " Oh, no, that was -- that was the copy of that letter -- let me see. Here's another from Sporting News. "Just a note to thank you for your letter of July 29th. I, like you, am anxiously awaiting word on just what the Hall of Fame people did regarding the plaque for the great Negro players of the past." I mean he is in my corner, I believe, and just how far he'll go or what he'll say or what he can do, I don't know. But I don't think there's any question, any time the editor takes time to sit down and dictate a letter and have it sent to you, he must be interested. Otherwise he'd just turn it over to one of his writers, you know, and --

W. MARSHALL: Right. Right.

MRS. MANLEY: -- yeah. Because I've just have enough dealings with newspapers to 130:00know how they react. But this correspondence is all directly from Mr. Spink himself saying that's he's interested. And the last one he sent me, I can't seem to find it. He -- where he said he was -- th--- gave me the feeling that he was very anxious to know what's happening. Now what -- what he could do, I don't know. Of course, naturally, they do--- the -- the Hall won't like unfavorable new--- newspaper publicity. That's --


MRS. MANLEY: -- that's understandable. Boy, let me --

W. MARSHALL: Let me --

MRS. MANLEY: I'm involved in something very interesting and I'm just dying to know how it's going to turn out. And it's getting this plaque hung on the Hall --

W. MARSHALL: Well, as --

MRS. MANLEY: -- with the names of some of these great Negro players.

W. MARSHALL: -- as an educated observer, I would think it wouldn't be too difficult for them to put a plaque up.


MRS. MANLEY: Well, that's the thing of it. I -- I'm not asking them to put the pictures because I know that's out of the question. You know, when there were -- and in that story that you have there from The Sporting News, he quotes me where I said I would settle for, I think, it says thirty, but I could name a hundred. Well, that's true. I mean there's no que--- and you're too young, as I said, to have known anything but, boy, I'm telling you that old-time Negro baseball was so superior to the white major league baseball so it's just no -- get the -- the things that -- that -- this base stealing that Lou -- that Lou --


MRS. MANLEY: -- Brock and Maury Wills and all those, that was part of our game. A boy wouldn't think about getting -- this Monte Irvin. There's a picture there of him stealing home after he was on the Giants. Stealing home in one of the World Series games. That was part of our game. They didn't think about getting on a base and waiting for the coach to tell them whether they could run or not [chuckling] or any of that kind of stuff, you know. It was a 132:00matter of -- [interruption in taping] -- running one mile a minute.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. After Robinson was signed, you started having difficulty drawing people to the -- through --

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, definitely.

W. MARSHALL: -- the turnstiles because as the -- the attractions were now at -- entering the major leagues and --


W. MARSHALL: -- this was of course a --

MRS. MANLEY: Our fans used to go --

W. MARSHALL: -- a big challenge.

MRS. MANLEY: -- as far as Baltimore to see the teams play that was Robinson on, yeah.

W. MARSHALL: And you talked to your husband and said, essentially, "I just don't think we can do it anymore." Can you tell me a little bit about that?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, common sense just -- I could see that -- how things were going. And, of course, I didn't have the gambling background or even the instincts that Abe had so, of course, we just didn't see eye to eye on that. He was a definite gambler and that's the way he had made his money and then he was just willing to gamble a little more. And I guess he felt maybe the -- the 133:00fa--- the fever would die down. Maybe the Negroes would come back to their own which it -- I -- I feel that it was not too smart a reaction on the part of the Negro fans to desert completely. But on the other hand, I could understand it. So I -- I just -- I had very little conversation with Abe about it, but I did try hard to get him to quit that next year because we dropped another twenty thousand dollars, and that's not to be sneezed at, you know. And even -- and in those days money was very different than what it is today. But he wouldn't quit that first year. But the second year he agreed to throw in the towel.

W. MARSHALL: And the other teams in the league [inaudible] first.

MRS. MANLEY: So I told you, at --


MRS. MANLEY: -- the same year we quite, the -- two other teams in our league decided they couldn't take it either. So -- and as I told you, the western 134:00league decided to take them --


MRS. MANLEY: -- in.


MRS. MANLEY: And they got this Negro dentist to buy my team, which I was so thrilled about.

W. MARSHALL: Art Rust?


W. MARSHALL: Art Rust, R-u-s-t, feels that the signing or the defection of Satchel Paige from the Negro leagues really was the telling blow. In other words, he went to the Indians and had a great year in 1948 --


W. MARSHALL: -- and helped them win the pennant.

MRS. MANLEY: Oh, no. We -- we felt it right in the beginning. The --


MRS. MANLEY: -- very first -- in fact, it -- it -- it didn't -- we didn't wait -- I mean it didn't start when the -- when Robinson went in the majors. It started when he went in the minors. They started deserting us right from minor league days. They went to see him on the minor league teams. No, we immediately -- it -- it was an immediate thing. It wasn't a thing that took time to happen.

W. MARSHALL: Did you have much contact with other major league owners during this period? In other words, you -- you were contacted by Veeck and you had 135:00dealings with Horace Stoneham with the Giants with Monte Irvin and, of course, Branch Rickey. Did you have much contact with other owners?

MRS. MANLEY: No, I don't think I had any contact with any other owners.


MRS. MANLEY: Just those who actually wanted to -- some of the members of my team. No, there were --

W. MARSHALL: Okay. What -- what did you and -- and your husband do after the team folded?

MRS. MANLEY: Well, Abe didn't live a great deal longer, --

W. MARSHALL: `52, you said.

MRS. MANLEY: -- you know, and -- and -- I really do -- I don't know whether that -- the folding up of the team helped to aggravate his trouble or not, but I don't think it helped any. They say that your mental attitude has a lot to do with your physical health, you know. He died with prostate trouble really. In 136:00fact, his heart gave out, and they operated -- had to operate on him and -- and it looked like he was doing all right. I told you I had a sister who was a registered nurse, and she came over -- after he had the operation and she came over to Newark to see him, Mother and Dad and her. And when she got ready to leave, he broke down and actually cried -- everybody was crazy about her. She was one of those wonderful nurses that actually took their nursing seriously, you know. So he felt so badly that Mother said, "Well then, Ruth, bring him back over to Philadelphia with you." And Mother and Dad went back that day. And the next day I drove him and Ruth to Philadelphia. And I thought he was -- we all thought he was improving and I came back to Newark to pick up some more clothes, but the next day he -- he just -- his heart gave away, you know. It 137:00was -- I think that the -- the breakdown of the baseball irritated him. Now whether that could have effected his physical being, I don't know, but he didn't live much longer.

W. MARSHALL: Did he just go into retirement, or did he go into --


W. MARSHALL: -- other business ventures?

MRS. MANLEY: No, he just went into retirement that -- th--- we quit in `48 and he died in `52, so --

W. MARSHALL: Did you have any other business ventures going on while you were owning the club?

MRS. MANLEY: No, Abe had invested in -- heavily in real estate and that was really our --

W. MARSHALL: That sort of kept you going.

MRS. MANLEY: -- long--- yeah. Uh-huh.

W. MARSHALL: Sure. Okay. Do you have any comments, or is there anything that we haven't covered, actually this morning and this afternoon? [Laughter--Mrs. Manley] Any ground, that you know, that as far as -- again, we're talking in terms of -- of Negro baseball and then the Negroes br--- breaking the color 138:00barrier. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like to talk about?

MRS. MANLEY: I think you'll probably find maybe some interesting things in the -- this -- these things I've given you.


MRS. MANLEY: Now this -- this column by Jim Murray that appeared in the Los Angeles Times was a very good column. He -- I -- he's the one I told you who said when he came here he said he'd been driving around for an hour trying to locate the place. And a newspaperman located here in Los Angeles, you know, that! I understand this was the first part of the city that was built and I don't think there was any planning. They just cut and built any way they wanted to, oh, boy. And so that's a very good story, though. Extremely good. I've had a lot of photostats made of it because I -- a lot of people I really wanted to see it. He's -- he's giving a lot of credit for -- I'm -- it may be one reason I'm so happy about it, he's giving a great deal of credit to the Manleys 139:00for having set up -- organized the Negro baseball league. You know, before then this -- this barnstorming deal was a very -- even they were wonderful teams, it meant that it was a weak foundation, you know, because the teams had no understanding about taking players or whatnot. So that's a very good story. And I really think -- now, if you don't have the time right away to actually read the book through, look at the pictures. There a lot of very good pictures, and each one underneath of it has a -- a little caption that kind of tells you a great deal, you know. So you -- you would have to time to look -- just --

W. MARSHALL: I'll read it -- I'm going to read it tonight.

MRS. MANLEY: Just like -- well, it -- it's not -- it's a short one, so you won't have --

W. MARSHALL: I'll read it tonight.

MRS. MANLEY: -- too much trouble reading it. But it -- I think it's fairly good. There -- there -- there are some things that haven't been covered, but on 140:00the whole it -- it's just what the title says. Negro Baseball Before Integration. And one chapter the guy put in that -- and one -- one lucky thing, from the minute we went in the baseball business in 1935, I immediately started clipping out any interesting newspaper stories and putting them in this box. So when we were forced to quit, I set up a card table in one corner of my living room and made up this scrapbook. And the -- the newspaper clippings had the name of the paper, the name of the writer, the date of the story, the whole deal so that you didn't just have say such and such a thing was in the paper. He's actually put the name of the paper and the whole thing, you know. And they were good articles or I wouldn't have bothered to cut them out. So there's -- quite 141:00a lot of that's in the book. And, in fact, that's what I think gave him the courage to write it because when I first suggested to him that I'd like to see a book because this present generation doesn't know we ever existed, he said, "Oh, writing a book requires so much research and takes -- you have to do a lot of traveling and oh, boy." So he wasn't a bit enthusiastic about it. But after he looked at my scrapbook and ruined it, oh, boy, the --

W. MARSHALL: Ruined it?

MRS. MANLEY: Oh! So many of the s--- the things he cut out, the pictures and what have you, so I didn't mind. Well, nobody wants your scrapbook after you're gone, you know that. Who wants your scrapbooks or your trophies or your things? So the scrapbook is a wreck now, but there are a few things left in there. But I think you'll find the book fairly interesting. And let me see. Is there anything I can -- this is a funny thing. See that desk over there?


MRS. MANLEY: I had forgotten all about -- that was a -- a desk and that piece 142:00of furniture, and when this book deal came up it made a perfect place for the book. This is my desk over here that I've always used, you know.


MRS. MANLEY: And this thing I had completely forgotten. Then one day when I was wondering what to do about the orders for the books and where to keep the different things, I said, "Well, I'll be darned. This was a desk over here." So I opened it up and it was perfect. So I -- I -- after you go I bet I'll think of a lot of things I should have said to you.

W. MARSHALL: Well, I would like to --

MRS. MANLEY: See, this is from the fellow who wrote the book. I think this must be the -- the photostats that I asked him to make of -- oh, this is -- no, this is about the copy of the letter where we've ordered the second printing.

W. MARSHALL: How long will that take?


MRS. MANLEY: It takes them 45 days to print -- print a lot. His -- his -- in this letter that he sent me -- oh, this is the letter that he sent to Arch. And this -- this -- or these letters that we're sending out to people ordering the book like these now, we're telling them about two months. We're sending them a -- I think it's a --

W. MARSHALL: Well, on behalf of the University of Kentucky and -- and myself in particular, I'd like to thank you very much for participating in our oral history program.

MRS. MANLEY: Well, I -- I -- I hope I've been some help. This was the press release that they sent out. The -- the National Baseball Hall of Fame. And I don't think there's any question about it since all this hell I've been raising has caused them to reorganize this veterans' committee. And this one of the original -- let me see. Where is that paragraph? See, he didn't copy the whole 144:00thing. Now there -- there was one paragraph where they said that the -- I'll be darned. He deliberately didn't put that -- let me see if he sent me the original copy back that I gave him to make these photostats from. That looks like the original one. Where it said that -- there was a paragraph that said that no members of the committee could elect themselves. So that was a slap at Monte and [inaudible] because they were members of the committee when they elected them.

W. MARSHALL: Sure. Sure.

MRS. MANLEY: But I don't see that.


W. MARSHALL: Hmm. You were born in 1901, is that correct?

MRS. MANLEY: 1900.

W. MARSHALL: 1900. And where?

MRS. MANLEY: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

W. MARSHALL: In Pennsylvania, okay.

MRS. MANLEY: March 27th.

W. MARSHALL: Okay. Well, I'm going to flip this off.

[Interruption in taping]

MRS. MANLEY: My conversation with Bill Veeck the day he called and said he wanted Doby, the last thing I said to -- after he said if he kept him thirty days he'd send us another five thousand dollars, I said, "Well, now, Mr. Veeck, there's one more thing I want -- want to take up with you. Please promise me you'll never give Larry less than five thousand dollars a year." I said, "We're paying him about four and I didn't want to think he was going to get any less." He says, "Well, I'll promise you." And he did. And that's why he put him right on Cleveland. He never spent one day in the minor leagues. And none of those boys except Newcombe, he needed minor league training, but the rest of those men 146:00were all ready to step right in the majors. And he put -- Doby went right in on the Cleveland team and started right in playing very good baseball.

W. MARSHALL: Yes, he did.

MRS. MANLEY: So that -- that -- that's just a -- this statement of Lacy's that we didn't have any of them ready, that's ridiculous.

[End of interview]

0:29 - Early organization of Negro League baseball

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Partial Transcript: Well, uh, uh, my husband was the one who really became interested in the baseball.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses early attempts to organize Negro League baseball, including those of her husband, Abe Manley, and of Rube Foster.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Brooklyn Eagles; Dodgers; Negro National League; Organization of negro leagues; Rube Foster

Subjects: Brooklyn Dodgers (Baseball Team) Ebbets Field (New York, N.Y.) Negro leagues Newark Eagles (Baseball Team)

3:04 - Abe Manley's affinity for baseball

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Partial Transcript: We also talked a little bit about why your husband owned the team. I mean, he just became interested quite suddenly.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses her husband's affinity for Negro League baseball and the Philadelphia or Darby Hilldales. She also gives her thoughts on the abilities of African American athletes.

Keywords: "Negros"; Abe Manley; Athletic ability; Baseball fans; Hilldales

Subjects: African American athletes Baseball Negro leagues

4:23 - Effa Manley's role as business manager of Newark Eagles

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Partial Transcript: You had, then, um, a great deal to do with the ball club as far as its operation is concerned, and how did this come about?

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses the management of the Newark Eagles and her role as business manager. She talks briefly about her acceptance as a woman within the Negro National League. She also mentions her reaction to Jackie Robinson's and Don Newcombe's departure from the Negro National League.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Acceptance of women; Carrie Jacobs; Eddison Thomas; Education; Equipment; Eric Ellidge; Management of Newark Eagles; Renaissance "negro" basketball team; Spring training

Subjects: Baseball--Management Major League Baseball (Organization) Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues Negro National League Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Newcombe, Donald Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972

10:13 - Branch Rickey's recruitment of Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, and Don Newcombe

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Partial Transcript: Uh, after Mr. Rickey did what he did, was when I really started talking a little bit. I mean, when, when, now when he took, you know he took those three...

Segment Synopsis: Manley shares her feelings on Branch Rickey's recruitment of Jackie Robinson, Roy Campanella, and Don Newcombe. She talks briefly about Major League baseball's reluctance to accept African American players or Negro League teams. She also touches on baseball records.

Keywords: African American athletic ability; Baseball records; Farm League

Subjects: African American athletes African American baseball players Campanella, Roy, 1921-1993. Major League Baseball (Organization) Newcombe, Donald Pitchers (Baseball) Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965 Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972

12:20 - The birth of the Negro American League / competition between the Negro National League and the Negro American League

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Partial Transcript: Now you mentioned before the organization of, um the two leagues that primarily the negro ball clubs were, um, working through booking agents.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses the beginnings of the Negro American League and how competitive it was with the Negro National League. She talks about the 1946 Newark Eagles team and the Negro League World Series.

Keywords: 1946 Newark Eagles; Abe Manley; Booking agents; Dr. Martin; East-West all-star game; Negro League World Series; Pat Patterson; Schedules

Subjects: Baseball Irvin, Monte, 1919- Negro American League. Negro leagues Negro National League Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965

16:44 - Salaries, scouting, rosters, and contracts

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Partial Transcript: What are we talking about as far as salaries are concerned? Let's say, in the '40's.

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes the average salary for Newark Eagles players and Abe Manley's role in deciding them. She talks about the informality of scouting for the Negro Leagues. She also notes that every Newark Eagles' player had a legally binding contract.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Contracts; Frank Mathis; Pat Patterson; Rookies; Rosters; Salaries; Scouting

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players--Salaries, etc.--United States Doby, Larry Negro leagues Negro National League Newark Eagles (Baseball Team)

22:53 - Traveling conditions for Newark Eagles players / Manley's friendship with Joe Lewis

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Partial Transcript: What, um, were the road conditions like for the ball players? I'm sure that since you didn't travel with them, but you heard a lot of stories, I mean sure.

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes the conditions of the hotels where Negro National League players stayed. She states that they were adequate and not as bad as others described them. She describes how she and her husband stayed with the team in "colored" hotels. She describes an incident in which Joe Lewis gave her his suite and stayed with friends, also mentioning her friendship with Lewis.

Keywords: "colored" hotels; Abe Manley; Hotel accommodations; Hotels; Joe Lewis; Negro National League players; Women in baseball

Subjects: African American baseball players African Americans--Social conditions Baseball players Negro National League

25:45 - The integration of Major League Baseball / Monte Irvin as a candidate for breaking the "color line" / competing for players with the Mexican League

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Partial Transcript: ...Now he was the boy, had the negro, had the owners of the negro teams been asked who to break down the prejudice...

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses the integration of Major League baseball. She describes the agreement among Negro League team owners that Monte Irvin was a good candidate to break the "color line" in Major League baseball. Marshall mentions that there were reports of Monte Irvin's reluctance to be the first African American in Major League baseball. Manley also discusses the Mexican League's taking Negro League players, including Ray Dandridge and Satchel Paige. She shares an anecdote about Satchel Paige's crush on her.

Keywords: 1944; Gus Greenlee; Homestead Grays; Integration of Major League baseball; Joe Williams; Mexican League; Salaries; Salary negotiations

Subjects: Baseball team owners Dandridge, Ray Integration Irvin, Monte, 1919- Liga Mexicana de Beisbol Profesional Major League Baseball (Organization)--History Negro leagues Paige, Satchel, 1906-1982 Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965 Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972 Washington Homestead Grays (Baseball Team)

33:09 - Negro league baseball forgotten

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Partial Transcript: One time they had Newcombe on with me, prime time on the big channels...

Segment Synopsis: Manley expresses her distress that "black baseball" has been forgotten. She also tells of the difficulty she had in finding a publisher for her book, Negro Baseball Before Integration. She attributes that difficulty to the epilogue's detailed outline of every Major League baseball record that was broken by an African American baseball player.

Keywords: "Smokey Joe" Williams; African American businesspeople; Baseball records; Books; Negro Baseball Before Integration (Book); Publishers; Reggie Jackson

Subjects: African American baseball players Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues.

35:41 - Attitudes of Negro League baseball players / the Newark Eagles' acquisition of Pat Patterson

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Partial Transcript: There was no such thing as dissatisfaction on the team. The boys, honest to god, were not working, they were, they loved it.

Segment Synopsis: Manley asserts that trades were uncommon in the Negro League because there was no dissatisfaction among players. She does discuss the trade of Murray Watkins for Pat Patterson, describing Patterson as a wonderful player. She also describes how skeptical the fans were about this trade.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Attitude; Baseball fans; Baseball trades; Dissatisfaction; Murray Watkins; Pat Patterson; Salaries; Trades

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players--Salaries, etc.--United States Negro leagues

38:38 - Winter employment for Negro League players

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Partial Transcript: The first year we had the team, 1935, I was very unhappy about the boys not having any work in the winter.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses her role in creating opportunities for Negro League baseball players to play in Puerto Rico and Cuba during the winter months. She also asserts that, aside from Pat Patterson, very few players had winter employment outside of baseball.

Keywords: Brooklyn Eagles; Employment; Off-season; Pat Patterson; Puerto Rico; Winter; Winter ball

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players Cuba. Irvin, Monte, 1919- National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Negro leagues Newark Eagles (Baseball Team)

41:49 - The story behind a 1938 photograph of Effa Manley in the dugout

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Partial Transcript: How often did, uh, did you meet as owners? In other words...

Segment Synopsis: Manley tells the story behind the famous 1938 photo of her wearing a cap and jacket in the Newark Eagles' dugout.

Keywords: New York Evening News; New York Post; women in baseball

Subjects: Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Women

46:49 - Baseball and rationing during World War II

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Partial Transcript: Let me switch to, uh, World War II. And, uh, as I understand it, there were around...

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses the effects that World War II had on baseball, including the African American players' willingness to volunteer for military service. Effa Manley's war efforts are also discussed, specifically her role on the Gasoline Rationing Panel.

Keywords: African American soldiers; Baseball during World War II; Effa Manley; Gasoline rationing; Gasoline Rationing Panel

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Rationing--United States World War, 1939-1945.

50:53 - Reasons for Major League baseball's banning of African American players

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Partial Transcript: What, in your estimation, uh, you mentioned just recently--just now--that it was kind of accepted that the majors didn't want blacks to play in their midst.

Segment Synopsis: This lengthy section provides insight from both Marshall and Manley on some of the explanations for Major League baseball's refusal to accept African American players. These include fear that African Americans would break white players' records, distaste for African American fans, and a reluctance to take players from Negro League teams. Manley gives her opinion that everyone had just accepted that there would be two leagues, one black and one white.

Keywords: African American baseball fans; African American baseball players; African Americans and alcohol; Baseball records; East-West games; increased security; Reggie Jackson

Subjects: African American baseball players African Americans--Segregation African Americans--Sports Major League Baseball (Organization) Major League Baseball (Organization)--History Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Ruth, Babe, 1895-1948.

60:28 - Abe and Effa Manley's departure from the Negro Leagues / trading Monte Irvin to the Giants

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Partial Transcript: The integration took place in '46, and I begged Abe to, in '47, to quit.

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her and her husband's exit from the Negro Leagues, including how they spent large sums of money to continue after integration, and how they sold the team. She discusses trading Monte Irvin to the Giants in detail.

Keywords: Dr. Young; Integration in Major League baseball; Jerry Tesler (??); Signing; Western League

Subjects: Integration Irvin, Monte, 1919- Major League Baseball (Organization) Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues New York Giants (Baseball Team) New York Yankees (Baseball Team) Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Newcombe, Donald Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965

65:57 - The establishment of the United States Baseball League / Branch Rickey's taking of Negro League players

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Partial Transcript: Let's, let's go back to 1945. Um, that's the year Branch Rickey set up what he called his United States Baseball League.

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her reaction to Branch Rickey's announcement of the creation of the United States Baseball League, at a meeting that she attended. She talks about the reaction of the Negro League team owners and their decision to ensure that Rickey's league could not play on their fields, in hopes of preventing its success. She also describes Rickey's strategy of taking the players from the American and National Negro Leagues instead.

Keywords: Attorney Shackleford; Dr. Martin; Negro National League; Tom Wilson; United States Baseball League

Subjects: African American baseball team owners Baseball players Baseball team owners Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro American League. Negro leagues Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965

71:16 - Hardships faced by the United States Baseball League

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Partial Transcript: But I don't think he ever got the cooperation of our established Negro League teams.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses why the United States Baseball League was unsuccessful.

Keywords: Ball parks; Baseball parks; United States Baseball League

Subjects: African American baseball players African American baseball team owners Baseball team owners Negro leagues Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965

73:13 - Manley's relationship with Branch Rickey and booking agents

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Partial Transcript: You said you had some really, pretty good relationships with the Dodgers and with Branch Rickey.

Segment Synopsis: Manley discusses her and her husband's professional relationship with Branch Rickey before, during, and after he tried to start the United States Baseball League. She also discusses her and her husband's differing opinions on the role of booking agents in Negro League baseball.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Booking agents; Farm system in baseball; Integration of Major League baseball; Only the Ball was White (Book); United States Baseball League

Subjects: African American baseball players Integration Major League Baseball (Organization) Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965

79:18 - Chandler's commissionership / Jackie Robinson's tryouts for the Major Leagues / Minor League Baseball

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Partial Transcript: Also in 1945, while we're talking about that year, that's the year that Happy Chandler became Commissioner of Baseball...

Segment Synopsis: Manley talks about her indifference to Happy Chandler's position as commissioner of Major League baseball. She also talks about Jackie Robinson and other players' tryouts for Major League baseball teams in 1945. She describes her failed attempt to speak to the president of Minor League baseball in 1944 about integrating the Minor Leagues.

Keywords: Baseball presidents; Joe Bostic; Sam Jethro; Sam Lacy

Subjects: Chandler, Happy, 1898-1991 Integration Major League Baseball (Organization) Minor league baseball. Negro leagues Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972

83:18 - Superiority of Negro League baseball players to modern (1977) Major League players

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Partial Transcript: And I'll tell you something else; honest to God, I feel like our ball players were so superior to the present days ones so it's not even funny.

Segment Synopsis: Manley expresses her belief that, because of their skill and their love of the game, Negro League players were far better baseball players than the current (1977) Major League players.

Keywords: "satisfied"; Hank Aaron; Joe Morgan; Reggie Jackson

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball Baseball players Major League Baseball (Organization) Negro leagues

86:13 - Reaction to Jackie Robinson's signing by Branch Rickey / advocacy for the hiring of African American salesclerks at Blumstein's Department Store

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Partial Transcript: Let, Let's move on to next year, 1946. Um, and that was the year, of course, that Branch Rickey signed Jackie Robinson.

Segment Synopsis: Manley briefly describes her reaction to Jackie Robinson's signing to play Major League baseball. She discusses at length her work to pressure Blumstein's Department Store in Harlem to hire African American salesclerks.

Keywords: African American employment; African American salesclerks; Blumstein's Department Store; Citizen's League for Fair Play; Reverend John H. Johnson

Subjects: African Americans. Integration Major League Baseball (Organization)--History Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972

91:11 - Manley's family history and connection with the African American community

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Partial Transcript: Now, I got to tell you my story, because I know you're looking at me and looking at Abe's picture and, you know, you're wondering what in the hell is my story.

Segment Synopsis: Manley shares her family history and the reason for her deep connection to the African American community. She tells how she was raised "as a negro", and describes her social circle as an adult as being made up almost entirely of African Americans.

Keywords: "Negroes"; Bertha Ford; Family; Interracial relations; John Marcus Bishop; Siblings

Subjects: African Americans Interracial marriage Manley, Effa, 1897-1981

96:46 - Jackie Robinson's signing / the downfall of Negro Leagues

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Partial Transcript: With this, this background in, in, in mind, then having, you know, always been...

Segment Synopsis: Manley reacts to the signing of Jackie Robinson, especially through the lens of her upbringing in an African American community, and as part-owner of a Negro League team. She talks about traveling as a white woman, although she considers herself to be part of the African American community. She also touches again on the strengths of Monte Irvin.

Keywords: Integration of Major League baseball; Interracial relations; Racial segregation; Traveling

Subjects: Brooklyn Dodgers (Baseball Team) Irvin, Monte, 1919- Major League Baseball (Organization) Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965 Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972 Segregation

102:47 - Commissioner Chandler and Branch Rickey's roles in the integration of Major League baseball

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Partial Transcript: Let, let me go back a little bit. Again, Commissioner Chandler did have a role in Robinson's signing.

Segment Synopsis: Manley expresses her belief that Happy Chandler could not have stopped the integration of Major League Baseball, even if he had wished to. Marshall asks about Rickey's speech asking African Americans not to "spoil" Jackie Robinson, and Manley reacts to this with surprise.

Keywords: Branch Rickey; Branch Rickey as a person; Integration of Major League Baseball; Mexican League

Subjects: Chandler, Happy, 1898-1991 Irvin, Monte, 1919- Liga Mexicana de Beisbol Profesional Major League Baseball (Organization) New York Yankees (Baseball Team) Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965 Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972

106:21 - Manley's perceptions of Jackie Robinson / Robinson's experiences in Major League baseball

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Partial Transcript: How, how well did you know Jackie Robinson, if at all?

Segment Synopsis: Manley gives her impressions of Jackie Robinson, though she states that she never met him. She expresses her opinions about the abilities of African Americans to conduct successful business enterprises and to make music. She describes what she heard about Jackie Robinson's treatment by white baseball players and fans. She describes Robinson's temper, as it was rumored.

Keywords: Benjamin Chapman; Ink Spots; Music; Racial Integration; Rumors

Subjects: African American athletes African American baseball players African American business enterprises Integration Philadelphia Phillies (Baseball Team) Robinson, Jackie, 1919-1972 St. Louis Cardinals (Baseball Team)

110:21 - Don Newcombe, Monte Irvin, and Larry Doby's entrance into the Major Leagues

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Partial Transcript: You, uh, there was another player that was signed at the same time, that...

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes three Negro League players who switched to Major League baseball shortly after Jackie Robinson did. She tells the story of how she met Don Newcombe the day before spring training. She describes Newcombe's rough start in baseball as a pitcher and Branch Rickey's role in Newcombe's development as a player. She describes the recruitment of Larry Doby by Bill Veeck and the negotiations related to Doby's exit from the Newark Eagles.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Johnny Wright

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players Doby, Larry Integration Irvin, Monte, 1919- Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Newcombe, Donald Pitchers (Baseball) Rickey, Branch, 1881-1965 Veeck, Bill World War, 1939-1945

117:32 - Larry Doby's career and personality / Leon Day

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Partial Transcript: When did, when did Doby join the team, the Eagles? He was a second baseman, with you, wasn't he?

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes Larry Doby as both a player and person. She describes her relationship with Larry Doby, as well as her role as his son's godmother. She also mentions Leon Day.

Keywords: Career; Godmothers; Personality

Subjects: Baseball players Day, Leon Doby, Larry

123:02 - Negro baseball players in the Baseball Hall of Fame

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Partial Transcript: Publicity has always seemed to be around me for some reason. And now, I, this, this, um, sporting news story...

Segment Synopsis: Manley talks about her campaign to have Negro League baseball players commemorated on a plaque in the Baseball Hall of Fame. She talks about Roy Campanella's reluctance or inability to advocate for the plaque. She discusses her disagreement with the disbanding of the Committee on Negro Ball Players, and expresses her feelings that their job was not done.

Keywords: "Campy"; Baseball Hall of Fame; Biz Mackey; Committee on Negro Ball Players; Dick Lundy; Plaques

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players Campanella, Roy, 1921-1993. National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Negro leagues

128:23 - Collaboration with Spink, editor of The Sporting News

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Partial Transcript: Now the ace in the hole that I've got is the sports...

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her correspondence with a member of the Spink family who was the editor of The Sporting News in 1977. She describes what she wants from the Baseball Hall of Fame. She also describes the style of playing that made Negro League baseball players special in her eyes.

Keywords: Baseball Hall of Fame; Editors; Playing style; Spink; The Sporting News

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Newspapers

132:11 - Challenges for Negro League baseball after Major League baseball's integration

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Partial Transcript: ...Okay. Um, after Robinson was signed you started having difficulty drawing people to the, to the...

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her feelings about selling the Newark Eagles and the collapse of Negro League baseball. She discusses her husband's decision to continue with the Newark Eagles for two seasons after the Major Leagues were integrated.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Art Rust; Minor leagues

Subjects: Cleveland Indians (Baseball Team) Major League Baseball (Organization) Minor league baseball. Negro leagues Newark Eagles (Baseball Team) Paige, Satchel, 1906-1982 Segregation

135:28 - Life after the sale of the Newark Eagles

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Partial Transcript: What, what did you and your husband do after the team folded?

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her husband's failing health after the Newark Eagles folded. She wonders if the selling of the team had anything to do with his health. She describes his health conditions and the circumstances of his death.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Death; death of Abe Manley; Health; Health conditions; Illness

Subjects: Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Newark Eagles (Baseball Team)

138:56 - Credit for organizing Negro League baseball / a scrapbook about Negro League baseball

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Partial Transcript: He, He's giving a lot of credit, maybe is one reason I'm so happy about it. He's giving a great deal of credit...

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes many of the newspaper clippings, magazine articles, and books about Negro League baseball that she has collected.

Keywords: Abe Manley; Scrapbooks

Subjects: Baseball Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues

145:19 - Negotiations with Bill Veeck over Larry Doby

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Partial Transcript: My conversation with Bill Veeck the day he called and said he wanted Doby, the last thing I said to him after he said if he kept him...

Segment Synopsis: Manley describes her conversation with Bill Veeck about Larry Doby's compensation. She also expresses her disbelief that Negro League players were unprepared to play in the Major Leagues. The interview is concluded.

Keywords: Compensation

Subjects: African American baseball players Baseball players Doby, Larry Major League Baseball (Organization) Manley, Effa, 1897-1981 Negro leagues Veeck, Bill

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