SUCHANEK: All right, the following is an unrehearsed interview with Mr.William B. Keightley, for the University of Kentucky Libraries, Charles T. Wethington Alumni Faculty Oral History project. The interview was conducted by Jeffrey Suchanek, on November 28th, 2005 in Mr. Keightley's office in Lexington, Kentucky, at Memorial Coliseum.
SUCHANEK: Mr. Keightley, the last time we, we were talking about, westarted going through some of the players from the sixties, and I wanted to take up again where we left off, with some of these, some of these players and, and what you remember about them, maybe little anecdotes that you think people will be interested in, in knowing about these, these fellows, and I wanted to start with the . . . with the sixty, with the '64, '65 season, and there was the first season that Pat 1:00Riley played, and I was wondering what you could tell me and what you could remember about Pat Riley.
KEIGHTLEY: Well, you know, well Pat was from upstate, New York, and Idon't know if we discussed or not actually we . . . was able to recruit Patrick through a guy that had interest in him that was a, was a bartender, or owned a bar, and . . .
SUCHANEK: Here, in Lexington?
KEIGHTLEY: No, no, in Schenectady.
SUCHANEK: In s . . . okay, Schenectady.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, we had, there was someone in this area that was familiarwith that guy, and . . . and Pat was a friend of this, this man and his family and . . . 2:00of course when Pat came here, I guess he was not like a . . . someone from New York. Of course he was from upstate, he was more like a, a, a country person . . . and . . . yes he came here as a freshman and I do recall, and we, you know, of course we had freshmen teams back in that, in that era. I do recall . . . the apprehension that was on Christmas night of his freshman year. Everyone had to be back and Pat missed the (chuckle - Keightley) the hour that he was supposed to 3:00be back and did not arrive until, oh, a couple of hours later, but of course back then, you know, you traveled by rail mostly instead of by air, and he had missed some connection but everybody was concerned that Pat you know, might, might be homesick and not coming back, so I remember the relief that everybody felt when Pat walked through the door (Chuckle - Suchanek) coming in, I believe it was on Christmas night around nine o'clock, and . . . yeah Pat, Pat was a, you know, didn't . . . acquire his demeanor until long after he left here when he had . . . played in the NBA and then, was a radio announcer, or did color in, in Los Angeles for the 4:00Lakers, and he became kind of the Hollywood style young man that everybody perceives him today, but . . .
SUCHANEK: But you knew him different.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . but I, I know that still beneath that is Pat Riley, and a fact,we were getting ready to have a reunion in February this year of that, that group again. This would be what, the fortieth, the fortieth . . . year since, since that team was put together, and we are looking forward to having them all back in here, in, in February of this year and hopefully Pat will be able to attend. He is, he's always attended any, any reunions we've had, and I usually get to see him at least one 5:00time a year somewhere our paths will cross.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. What kind of player was he?
KEIGHTLEY: Pat was a, was really a, a great athlete. He, he was a goodfootball player in high school and was just a, a great athlete and he had a, a-a-a, he was a tremendous leaper for his size, and he had a, a great, great junior year, and then they . . . Coach Rupp took the team to Israel . . . between the '96, let's see - between - no between the . . . s-s-sixty-five, '66, I guess in between the '66, '67. He 6:00took the team to Israel and Pat injured his back and he did not have the great senior year that everyone expected. In fact, I, I don't think he ever totally recovered from that . . . through his pro career, but he, he was a, a tremendous player and he was a good team player, as was, well that whole unit had tremendous chemistry and . . . every player on that starting five and I don't want to just . . . talk about the starting five because what made that team really what they were was, we had many, many good athletes on that team that were role players and accepted their roles, and, and 7:00. . . that, that's actually what made that team as, as great as it was.
SUCHANEK: You had Louie, Louie Dampier on that team.
KEIGHTLEY: Louie Dampier.
SUCHANEK: Larry Conley.
SUCHANEK: Tommy Kron.
KEIGHTLEY: And Thad Jaracz, and then we had some really greatsubstitutes, we had . . . Jim LeMaster whose son Preston is, is playing at, or and playing here at, at the present, and Tommy Porter, Gary Gamble, Larry Lentz, we, we just had a lot of, of . . . great role players, Cliff Berger . . .
SUCHANEK: Brad Bounds.
KEIGHTLEY: Bradley Bounds, that's him, yes, the bounder and . . .
SUCHANEK: Steve Clevenger.
KEIGHTLEY: Steve Clevenger from up in Indiana . . .
SUCHANEK: Gene Stewart.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . who now makes his home in Danville.
SUCHANEK: Gene Stewart.8:00
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, Gene Stewart from Indiana. . .
SUCHANEK: Bob Tallent.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . that was a, but, but they were, they were all good solidathletes and good players and were able to give the starting five a good workout everyday in practice.
SUCHANEK: Mr. Keightley, e . . . talk a little bit about how recruiting haschanged over the years from the sixties to the present day. It seems to me, you know, back when Adolph Rupp was . . . was recruiting and coach here, he didn't have . . . you know, too many out of state players, at least . . . f . . . west of the Mississippi coming to Kentucky, but that's all changed now.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I don't, I'd, maybe we might have mentioned it a little bitearlier, you know, speaking of eastern Kentucky . . . of course . . . well yes, we had 9:00Larry Conley and, and he probably was the only one of that group that was a starter from eastern Kentucky but . . . the reason now that it has changed is basketball with the . . . African-American athlete playing such a huge role in the game today nationwide . . . at one time you could perfect your game by yourself, but today with the, with the game having changed to where it is, it is running and leaping and, and . . . you, you can't go out and work on a two-handed set shot or a, a lay up by yourself, you have to play the game the year around in, in order to succeed and on 10:00this . . . my opinion also, one of the, the things that's happened to Kentucky basketball that I wish had not have happen, is the consolidation of the small schools over the state. See Indiana still has not done this to this day, and this, this year two-thousand and five, they still have small high schools in communities where there is tremendous community pride and, not only that, it affords a kid an opportunity to go out and participate and play, whereas if you threw together about five of those high schools, you would still only have about fifteen guys able to stay 11:00on the squad, where if you had five high school still represented as an individual . . .
SUCHANEK: You have fifty.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . you would have seventy-five kids.
KEIGHTLEY: So, you know, those kids that . . . developed that now nolonger has an opportunity and it's more so, I'll say, in eastern Ken, and even western Kentucky is the fact is with the consolidation of the small schools into one large one, they have no means to go back to their homes after, after practice, may - they may live 25 miles from the high school, we will say in Johnson County or Pike County, you may live twenty or twenty-five miles from the school whereas if they 12:00had not consolidated these kids could have walked home and, and . . .
SUCHANEK: So they're just not able to play.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . they, they're just not able to participate in, in, you know,intramural things and, and tryout for, for some things or whatever, that, you know, the profession may be. I mean it could baseball or I'm talking about athletes, and even academics, dramatic . . . things of that nature, you, on the, that is something that you had to do after the academic hours and that no longer is available to these kids that live a, a, a distance from the school, and . . . I, I think that has made a, a huge difference in the state of Kentucky because transportation is a, is a real 13:00problem, especially for youngsters up in eastern Kentucky.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. And how about . . . the reason I, I thought about this,we were talking about Pat Riley. How about pro . . . pro scouts these days, as compared to the end of the sixties, did you . . . in the sixties, were there that many hanging around or . . .
KEIGHTLEY: No, you (unintelligible) now it was a rarity, you ever saw a proscout. Now, you know, if you play a big game like we're going to play Saturday, they'll probably be fifteen scouts here, and . . . that too has had an effect, made coaching somewhat more difficult.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, explain that.
KEIGHTLEY: Huh, for the fact is, most kids today think that they're going tobe a pro basketball player if they come to a, a major college, a high profile college. 14:00Their goal is to be a pro basketball player and that's wonderful, you, you got to have a dream. But, you know, the fact is and a proven figures are only one percent of them are ever going to make it, but the kids keep that dream, and, and that, that is good, but when you have a big game and you have fifteen pro scouts in an arena with 23,000 fans, each one of these kids starts to think a little bit about himself that the eye is up on me, I've got to make an impression and sometimes it, it's difficult to keep them focused as a team, so it, it makes it a little more difficult to coach so . . .
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Out of the, out of the coaches that you've . . . workedwith, or seen in action, who, who dealt with that the best? 15:00
KEIGHTLEY: Well, you know, he, that's a difficult question, Jeff, I'll tell youwhy is, as I say, Coach Rupp wasn't, basically wasn't bothered with it at all, and . . .
SUCHANEK: But starting with Joe B. Hall, when . . .
KEIGHTLEY: With Joe B., it started to pick up and it has, it has gainedmomentum mostly since, I'll say . . . the, the nineties is when it really exploded, about the time that Rick came here, it, it just exploded. Scouts just came out of the woodwork because . . . the African-American athlete was becoming more prominent every day in, in the sport of basketball most especially, and . . . so . . . 16:00
SUCHANEK: Do you think . . . Coach Pitino's having been in the NBA as a,as an ac . . . as a coach before that also brought scouts?
KEIGHTLEY: I . . . I, possibly in, in that period yes, yes, I, I'd say so, and thenof course, Tubby does, really does a good job with it. I mean, he realizes that these kids, you know, want, want to be a pro player, but he tries to keep them . . . keep the, keep them focused and, and keep them within the realm of possibility instead of the realm of impossibility. But . . . and all, you know, we've got, we've gotten many guys out there sells that's in the scouting business. Well I shouldn't say . . . yeah, 17:00we've got George Felton that was a, an assistant here, we have . . .
SUCHANEK: Rex Chapman.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . Gregg Polinsky, we have . . . Randy Embry, and locally wehave a guy by the name of Jim Mitchell that was a high school coach, and I believe he coached at Eastern Kentucky for a period of time and . . .
SUCHANEK: Rex Chapman was a scout wasn't he?
KEIGHTLEY: . . . and Rex Chapman whom I just visited with this weekendin, in Kansas City . . . so Dwane Casey at one time was a, was a . . . pro scout so they, they come to practice from time to time and . . .
SUCHANEK: Are they allowed in practices?
KEIGHTLEY: What's that?
SUCHANEK: Are the scouts allowed in practices?
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yes, yes, they, they can yes, yes, I mean, you know, you18:00don't, as I say . . . it's a, it's a situation where you have to, have to cooperate, really, because, you know, if you would shut a scout out and say in a school like here in Kentucky, well that, that would be used against you in recruiting, they'd say, "hey, you know, your coach won't let anybody come and see you, why you want to go there?" I mean that's what the other college coaches would be . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . would be saying.
SUCHANEK: Sure. Well, it's kind of like a double edge sword, like you said,it's, it's hard for coaches, it makes coaching more difficult.
KEIGHTLEY: It does!
SUCHANEK: But on the, on the other hand, the more pro players you haveplaying in the NBA from your school, you use that as a recruiting tool as well, don't' you?
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yes, you can use that, especially if you have them, you19:00know, like now, like we have Tayshaun Prince is playing really well, yes. That's good. We got Keith Bogans in now, you know, but speaking of that, we can use those two kids as, as a, so to speak a poster child for staying in school. See, the big problem with all of this is, is kids as we're right now involved with the Randolph Morris situation, the big problem is having them to try to leave school too soon, when they are not ready, and, you know, I know it's, it, it's, it's big money, and I'm sure that I would be considering it myself had I the ability of many of these young men, but still, the, the . . . obvious to most of us it's around the game every day is 20:00when a kind might be ready and when he is not. Now, if you, we are not talking about a scout, they're, they are not the ones that really pull the kids out, they come and evaluate them. The, the, the people that, that are difficult are the agents. (Phone ringing sound) They are just a, they are just a parasites that, and they don't care about the kid, every kid they can put on their list, or if they can sign him, if they got fifteen kids, they really don't care which one gets to the pros, just as long as they get one of them. And now they got the kid tied up (phone stops ringing).
SUCHANEK: Because they get a percentage of the contract.
KEIGHTLEY: That's right, and, and now the kid is, you know, he is, well heis doomed; but these are the, these are the slick talkers that can get a kid in, into 21:00trouble, now there are some really reliable responsible agents that . . .
SUCHANEK: Who, who would they be? Who, who do you respect as far asagents go?
KEIGHTLEY: Well, you know, what I, I would, Jeff, I really wouldn't want togive a, a . . . names because of . . . there is a, you know, there is, number one, personally I'm not really that well acquainted with any of the . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . any of the agents, but I know that there is some (cell phoneringing sound). Oh, it's (unintelligible) I expect I better . . .
SUCHANEK: Do you want to take that?
KEIGHTLEY: I expect I better get it.
SUCHANEK: Okay we're, we are back on.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes sir.
SUCHANEK: All right. What can you tell me about Thad Jaracz?22:00
KEIGHTLEY: Well Thad . . . as a local kid played at Lafayette High School fora guy that played at the University of Kentucky, Ralph Carlisle. He was about six- five-and-a half.
SUCHANEK: Well you played for Ralph Carlisle didn't you?
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes sir. He was about six-five-and-a-half and he was afarm boy from out here on Harrodsburg Road about where . . . Beaumont Centre is located now, and . . . he was a, a real (unintelligible) had great coaching, was very 23:00sound fundamentally, and . . . he, he was, at that, at that time he was really quick inside for a kid that was six-five, and Thad was a very, very hard worker, very unselfish, and . . . after Thad graduated here, he, he went into the service and made a career of it.
SUCHANEK: Oh really!
THIRD PARTY: Real quick because I got a meeting that . . .
SUCHANEK: Where is Thad Jaracz now, do you know?
KEIGHTLEY: Thad Jaracz lives in, in . . . Oldham County.
SUCHANEK: Oh, does he!
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I see Thad two or three times a year, still. Got an interestin high school basketball and he had a daughter that was a, I believe a, a, a good 24:00athlete who played at Oldham County, and so, yeah, I see, I see Thad from time to time, he is still good ole Thad, but he made his career, he was a . . . maybe a captain in, in the Air Force.
SUCHANEK: Okay, mm-mm.
KEIGHTLEY: And he made a career out of it and really I don't know whatelse he does to supplement his retirement but . . .
SUCHANEK: Well, if he put in thirty years, that probably be a pretty goodone.
KEIGHTLEY: I, that's certainly (unintelligible) I'd say maybe he don't have todo much (Chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek)
SUCHANEK: Is, is he farming, do you know?
KEIGHTLEY: No, he is not farming.
KEIGHTLEY: That's, that's over.
SUCHANEK: Okay (chuckle - Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: He is like myself (Chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek), after,after he got away from here he knew there was another life, other than farming 25:00(Chuckle - Suchanek and Keightley)
SUCHANEK: Now was he, was he, did he ever consider a pro career, or, orwas his talent . . .
KEIGHTLEY: I, Thad, probably was a, was a, a good player but probably notlarge enough for . . . the pro caliber that it would take, because he definitely was an inside player, you know, and back in those days, if you were inside player you were inside player and he went, he went against... all the big guys and held his own but . . . the pros then, you had the Will Chamberlains and Bill Russells and, so Thad would have been just about a good guard size. So he, he never really seriously considered it, I'm sure.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Now, that's also been a, a big change in the collegegame from the sixties to the present day is the size of these kids that are coming in. 26:00It seems like, you know, you have guards that are six-seven, six-eight that, is just unbelievable that, how, how skilled they are.
KEIGHTLEY: Oh well yes, yes. You know I, I guess the first really big guard,even in college that, that I really can recall was Magic Johnson.
SUCHANEK: Right, he is the one who started it, really.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, that's right, and that was back in the seventies and, wellthese athletes today in, in all sports, it, it's amazing people really don't realize the size of these guys. You know, this year I saw a stat in, in the newspaper about . . . NFL players, of, of players that weighed over three-hundred pounds in, in the fall 27:00training for the NFL there was over four-hundred athletes . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . that tried on a different pro teams was on their, theirpractice squad that weighed over three-hundred pounds, and . . . you know, back in the sixties . . .
SUCHANEK: (Whispers) Hi!
THIRD PARTY: Mr. Keightley.
KEIGHTLEY: Hey Bobby.
THIRD PARTY: How are you doing?
KEIGHTLEY: All right. Great kid.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah but, it's, it's of the size of these, of these athletes it justmind-boggling, like this weekend . . . Austin Kearns who is a local, local kid that's a baseball player. Now Austin is a, is a pretty good size young man, he weighs two- 28:00thirty-five, about six-four-and-a-half, but Austin was married this weekend, and . . . his, his best buddy . . .
SUCHANEK: Well I think the Reds will be happy to know that (Laughter -Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yeah, (Chuckle - Keightley), he got married and, and hisbest buddy was in town, Adam Dunn. If you could see Adam Dunn you, you'd think he is six-nine, he is one of the . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . biggest guys only they list him about . . .
SUCHANEK and KEIGHTLEY: six-seven.
KEIGHTLEY: But, but he is just big all over. He is so big you'd think . . .
SUCHANEK: Oh he is . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . he couldn't play anything.
SUCHANEK: Oh yeah, he is like a tight end.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, and, but you know, that, that in basketball, it don't makeany difference, we play, you know, a small school we will say for instance like Liberty, they had, they had three guys that were over six-nine, the tallest would be 29:00in six-eleven, and I can remember when I was in before I was at the University the . . . the tallest player that I thought would ever lived was a guy named George Vulich that's back in the, back in the forties and he was six-nine (Chuckle - Suchanek). And all they, the, the, the, there just wasn't that many big kids.
KEIGHTLEY: But all of the sudden, and . . . there are just big kidseverywhere.
SUCHANEK: How much difference in talent is there between the playerswho, who play for major programs like UK, and those who play for smaller programs like Liberty. Is there that big a difference in talent? 30:00
KEIGHTLEY: It, it, it . . . that, that margin there is every year Jeff. It's, it'sgetting to the point where basketball used to be a, a sport where if you were better than the team one night, you probably were better than they were to where every time you played them. But that, that situation no longer exist and it, as I say, it narrows every year because today you can have one mediocre night and some smaller, lesser schools, you know, perceived by the media and the public, they, they, they can take you down as . . . as like for instance sometime within the last week, you know . . . 31:00
SUCHANEK: Well, I was watching the d . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . the Drexel ball, yes.
SUCHANEK: . . . dre . . . yeah Drexel, almost . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, hey Heart!
THIRD PARTY: What's up?
SUCHANEK: I'd, I tell you that's just, just because you've lived a while(Chuckle - Suchanek and Keightley) that's it!
KEIGHTLEY: That coffee keep me going buddy.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, we were talking about Drexel almost upsetting Duke?
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's . . .
SUCHANEK: And then they almost beat what was it UCLA? The next night. . .
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, they, they beat up, yeah . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . and then, and then the following night they . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . yeah by three.
SUCHANEK: And, and, and then the following night they lose to Penn(Laughter - Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, right. See that's, that's, yeah that's, yeah. You knowwhat, I just telling somebody I want to talk about you for a second now, having just known you, you know, probably for six weeks or whatever, but, but I, I told, I don't recall who it was I was speaking with about how well rounded you were, you know, 32:00you're a person that keeps up with politics, you keep up with sports, you keep up with world events . . .
SUCHANEK: Well they . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . and you know what? A . . . God knows I'd never be like youbut, it, it's, it's just wonderful, I try to do the same thing, I try to know a little bit about . . .
SUCHANEK: Well it . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . most things (Chuckle - Keightley) but, but it's amazing . . .
SUCHANEK: I'm a, I'm a mile wide an inch deep (Laughter - Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, there a mile wide an inch deep, but, but you know, Ithink it's amazing that you know, you're a man that's got to deal with people in all walks of life that you know, how, how much you know about sports, I think that's, that's wonderful . . .
SUCHANEK: Well t . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . because I . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . I like it (Chuckle - Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: . . . well yes, but I, I was getting to say I'm focused on it, youknow, that one thing mostly, and, and most especially basketball and baseball, but 33:00you, I mean you keep up, you know, I probably, I, I'll bet you that people from over there doing the same thing that you are doing, I'll bet you couldn't find another single one that would know what Dexel, or Drexel did just last week, I'll bet you (Chuckle - Keightley).
SUCHANEK: Well (Chuckle - Suchanek)
KEIGHTLEY: I think that's amazing.
SUCHANEK: Well, it was amazing to me that they gave Duke and, andUCLA such good games and then the following night they lose to Penn (Chuckle - Suchanek) I just . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah Penn that, that gives no scholarships.
SUCHANEK: No (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley)
KEIGHTLEY: And I don't know if Drexel does or not.
SUCHANEK: You know, I don't know that, I don't know that.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I, I don't know. I know it's a school that you always thinkwell, you know, you don't have to get ready for them.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, well . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Well at one time you didn't, but now you do.
SUCHANEK: Yeah you do, right, yeah.
KEIGHTLEY: Because back to talking about these kids in the, in the . . . howthe gap has closed between the haves and the have not . . . kids are, are coming 34:00out of high school now, they want to play just the minute they hit the campus, and therefore the, the . . . the smaller schools can recruit these kids . . .
SUCHANEK: Because they are going to get playing time.
KEIGHTLEY: That's right and then . . .
SUCHANEK: And I think - you know, we were talking about the pro scouts .. . I, I don't think you could play anywhere at any college program and if you're any good, the scouts will find you.
KEIGHTLEY: Oh yes, they will. I know there is . . . the, there is some playernow, well, within the last maybe ten or twelve years it was maybe perceived as one of the top players in the country went to one of those schools up east on, you know, 35:00non-scholarship and had, gosh his name has escaped me and I really, I, I know he did, he did go to the pros but I can't remember his name and don't know if he still there. But I, you know, everybody would liked to have had this kid. He was an honor student and averaged about thirty a game in high school and he was about six-ten, but I, I can't recall his name.
SUCHANEK: I'll ask you about more individual players as we go, but . . . justoff the top of your head, I want to ask you some general kind of questions, like . . . in your memory, who was the, who was the best, who was the best basketball 36:00player that you've seen here at UK, all around?
KEIGHTLEY: Well, you know, I, this, I don't know if I have used this beforewith you or not, I, I've, I've been asked often you know, who was the best player, and . . . like Coach Rupp would say, he would never answer that because he would only make one happy and a, and a whole bunch unhappy, but you know, there has been many really good, good players and . . .
SUCHANEK: Name them.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . you know, not, not, not lay them out there in any, any order. . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . the . . . as, as I may have said, the best, to you, the bestshot maker that I've ever seen was Cliff Hagan, as a shot maker. But . . . as far as, 37:00as great players, of course, I, I never got to see Aggie Sale play, but I, I did play an alumni game with him at, at one point back in the forties, when I first came out of service, and I know Coach Rupp always said privately that Aggie Sale might have been the best player he ever coached, but, as I say, I was mesmerized playing him in a, in a, just a, an alumni game with, with Aggie and he was probably thirty . . . eight, forty years old at that time. But there have been, you know, so many . . . as I . . .
SUCHANEK: I mean there have been a lot of great athletes come throughhere. 38:00
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, and I, you know, I think, you know, through the yearsyou had . . .
SUCHANEK: You mentioned Wah Wah Jones, of course he was beforeyour time.
KEIGHTLEY: Well I, he, he is physically Wah Wah Jones the greatestathlete that ever played at the University of Kentucky, I don't know if we discussed that or not.
SUCHANEK: A little bit, yeah.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, Wah Wah was the greatest athlete and baseballmay have been his best sport, although he was an all-American in the other two and then you had . . .
SUCHANEK: Beard, he had Beard.
KEIGHTLEY: Ralph Beard man, to this day, he is . . . he will be seventy-ninehis birthday, and he comes in from time to time and I wish that you could witness how quick he is with his hands today. He likes to walk up to you and show you how to play defense, you know (Chuckle - Suchanek). My gosh, his hands are so quick you can hardly see them move at, at, at the age of which he will be seventy- nine, his birthday, and it, it's amazing so you can imagine how quick those hands 39:00were when he was 18 years old, and . . .
SUCHANEK: Of course Dan Issel played here.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah - oh yeah and, you know, you go, you go through theyears, all of the great ones, of Alex Groza, Wah Jones, then . . .
SUCHANEK: Louie Dampier.
KEIGHTLEY: You, oh yeah, you have, yeah you have Louie Dampier, butworking your way up to him you had, of course Bill Spivey, gosh only knows how great he could have been. You, you had Bill Spivey . . . and . . . then you, you move on through the fifties, of course you had Hagan, Ramsey, and (Phone ringing sound) Lou, Lou Tsioropoulos was a, was a good, was a good player. Lou Tsioropoulos was also a, a member of that team he was a fine player and than, and 40:00you know, we moved on through the, the (unintelligible) findlin five with (phone stops ringing) Adrian Smith and Vernon Hatton, and then you got to the sixties the, you know, you, you had Cotton Nash three-time all American (Phone ringing sound) then you had the . . . the, the Rupp's runts, all five of those guys, you move on, you got Dan Issel, Mike Casey, Mike Pratt, all of them were, were great players, and (phone stops ringing) . . . you get into the earliest seventies, Jim Andrews could have been one of the greatest players that ever played the game, but . . . Jim . . . at times was a little bit, was a little bit lazy (Chuckle - Keightley), but what a great 41:00human being he was, and had more talent, he was six-eleven.
SUCHANEK: When did he play?
KEIGHTLEY: He played and he graduated in '72.
KEIGHTLEY: Seventy-two. He'd run the floor like a six foot guard, couldshoot the ball from anywhere, still holds a rebound record for single game here, he got thirty against, I don't know, Georgia, I believe, one night, the next game out he got two (Laughter - Suchanek), but what a great human being Jim Andrews was and what a, what a great player, you know, he'd really - but it takes some time, you know, it takes people time to mature, but Jim has had a great life, so all is well 42:00(Laughter - Suchanek). But . . . you know, and then you move on, you had Kevin Grevey and Jimmy Dan Conner . . .
SUCHANEK: Goose Givens.
KEIGHTLEY: And then, g . . . and (unintelligible) their senior year, you hadGoose Givens and Rick Robey, and James Lee, and, and . . . Mike Phillips, you know, and then of course Kyle Macy came into that mold, and you know, it just goes on and on and in, into the eighties, you had, of course Kenny Walker who was really one of the all time greats, and . . . and then . . . we had, then it moves on up, you know, and then Rick came in, you had the c . . . 43:00
SUCHANEK: How about Mel Turpin?
KEIGHTLEY: Mel, oh yeah, Sam Bowie, we don't want to, we don't want toleave the, the demon out, Sam Bowie. Sam Bowie, Melvin Turpin, yeah, they are (Chuckle - Keightley), that's, that's the early eighties. They, they were two dandies and Jim Master who, who was a guard and he was here in practice yesterday. We had . . . you know, the golden era of, of basketball, the way it really started out and was for many years was more of a game of finesse, but that began to change . . . you know, back about with the seventy-eight team, because, you know, we used to be accused of being really pretty brutal. 44:00
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, very physical, and the game began to change.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. And that's true, isn't it, it, it has changed.
KEIGHTLEY: It, oh it did, yes, yes and it is now. My gosh! You know I, I - weall, we all critical of officials, but I don't know really . . .
SUCHANEK: They could call foul on every play, couldn't they.
KEIGHTLEY: I, I here could, just like I was watching a football gameyesterday. They called holding on a play. There is not a play run that somebody is not held in football. You can call it at any time, you just got to be sure that you see a man that's actually holding, but you can't see them all.
SUCHANEK: Well, I can remember back in the sixties and seventiesbasketball was referred to as a non-contact sport.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, it's right, yeah, if there was body contact somebodyfouled.
SUCHANEK: That's right!
SUCHANEK: And now, e . . . it's, I mean, you know, we ta . . . talking aboutthe difference in players over the t . . . over, overtime, you know, we, we talked 45:00about earlier in one of our sessions about, you know, if you, if you looked at weights you were going to get muscle bound. Now all of these players are lifting weights, they all weigh two-hundred-twenty, two-hundred-thirty pounds. It's a . . . it, it, it, the, the, you know, their, their body mass, their, the, the physicality of them, they, their, their specimens basically to look at them, and I don't know if I could survive on the court today physically, banging with these players.
KEIGHTLEY: You know, at, at one time that's weight training. See, that, thatonly really started back in the late sixties to a very minor degree and then by the, by . . . by the late seventies and early eighties, that was when it really, it mushroomed. 46:00I know at one time I can't recall which, which year it was, but we had eight basketball players that could clean and jerk three hundred pounds, eight basketball players, and the football team had four (Chuckle - Suchanek), and you know, we just had a bunch of . . .
SUCHANEK: That, that might be true today (Laughter - Suchanek andKeightley).
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes you could (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek). But. . . this you know, this, this was a, a, an in . . . incredible thing, it, it probably was about the '82 team that was, that we had all that physical strength. We had . . . I think Lavon Williams was may, maybe still here, and Tommy Heitz, and Charlie Hurt, Derrick Hord, Bret Bearup, there is five of them right there, and then there is 47:00(phone ringing sound) I don't . . . Oh no, this days they don't, they don't need me (unintelligible) it's a, it's a cell phone number . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . I have never seen before, yes. (Phone stops ringing). But .. . that, that has made a, a tremendous difference in, in . . . the way the game is played, but I mean right now, you know, you go out there, you see a body checking, you see a, why I see them reaching out (Phone ringing sound) and grabbing jerseys and you know, most of the time you get away with it, occasionally they, you, you'll, you'll get a call and then, after watching all this other physical stuff you . . . 48:00are critical of calling a picky foul like holding a jersey. (Phone stops ringing)
SUCHANEK: Right, right. I can remember, even back in the . . . the mid-nineties, Jamaal Magloire was, was . . . you know, the, the opposing guards did not want to drive in the lane because Jamaal Magloire was there.
KEIGHTLEY: Oh yeah, yeah!
SUCHANEK: And, and he would hammer you, and that used to be, even ina pro game, like in the sixties or seventies, people like Walt Bellamy and, and those people, if you went in there, you knew there was going to be a price to be paid.
SUCHANEK: But the other players didn't play like that.
KEIGHTLEY: No, no, there is always one guy that, yeah (Chuckle -Keightley).
SUCHANEK: That's right. But now they all play like that.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, they, they, that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah bud. Youknow, Magloire, even . . . I know the talking to some of our kids that was, are in the pros, you know, he they, he, he still carries that tag. You go in there, by golly, you 49:00gonna pay for it.
KEIGHTLEY: (Chuckle - Keightley) Yeah, he is, he, he was a physicaldude, I can tell you (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek)
SUCHANEK: Who was the best, who were some of the best practice playersyou can remember?
KEIGHTLEY: O-o-o-h gosh there's . . .
SUCHANEK: Oh I guess there is some guys that just don't like to practice,right?
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, that's, that's right (Chuckle - Keightley). The practiceplayers we've had, you know, we've had through the years, so many really, really good players that were, practice was about it, although they were capable of being a starter anywhere else, a . . .
SUCHANEK: Well, some of those Rick Pitino teams, I mean they, the, the,the five on the bench could have been starting for the other team.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, a lot, yes, yes a lot of them, yes you're right. Yeah50:00there have been . . . many, many great practice players, even on the . . . on the Rupp's runts, there was Steve Clevenger . . . Gene Stewart, Tommy Porter, Cliff Berger, that's, you know, I'm just picking one, one team.
SUCHANEK: Sure, mm-mm.
KEIGHTLEY: Jim LeMaster, all, all of those guys were, were capable players.
SUCHANEK: I mean in, in, in essence, I guess, on some of those teams . . .that was their game, because they weren't going to play much come Saturday . . .
KEIGHTLEY: No, that's, that's true.
SUCHANEK: . . . and so, you know, to them that was, that was, that was . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . the game, was the practice.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's, that's right. We had . . . you know, even there, we51:00talked about that '78 team with, of course, James Lee was the sixth man but . . . you know, you had . . . Lavon Williams was on that, on that team, and . . . Danny Hall, and we used either - most of that time we used either Mike or Rick in, in at center, and then occasionally we would play both of them at the same time, but, you know, with, in practice they played against each other and . . .
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, and made each other better, right?
KEIGHTLEY: . . . and Ja . . . and I tell you somebody else that was in thatgroup was Jay Shidler, and, you know, we were starting Kyle Macy and Truman 52:00Claytor but you had . . . Jay Shidler, you had . . . I tell you who was a great practice player was Dwane Casey, Freddy Cowan, and they, they were all on a, on the national championship team so . . . there, there've been, well you, you got to have, that's the reason you got to have a well balanced squad, you know . . .
SUCHANEK: Who were some, who were some of the worst practiceplayers?
KEIGHTLEY: Well (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek) boy, boy that'shard to say. Yes, it's hard to say, I, I, I tell you Jeff, I don't believe I'll go in for that one (Chuckle - Suchanek and Keightley) because those guys might still be around (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley).
SUCHANEK: Oh, I think . . .53:00
KEIGHTLEY: Really I, I can't say that . . .
SUCHANEK: I, I imagine some of them . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . some of them may be . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . some of them might agree with that.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . some of them were un . . . some of them were under-achievers, let's put it that way.
SUCHANEK: (Chuckle - Suchanek) Okay.
KEIGHTLEY: And . . . and, of course, we, we really don't intend to have toomany really bad practice players because we try to keep our squad pretty much primed to . . . you know, each, each year in recruiting now, which most of the time, you will recruit four players a year. Of those four players, at least three of them need to be capable of being a starter at some point, so it . . . that, that would leave you, you know, with, with . . . twelve guys at the end of four years that, that you 54:00thought should have been able to have helped you as a, as a starter, now that means you got . . . you got seven that's on the bench that maybe thought they should be starting.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Well if they don't think they sho . . . they should bestarting, they shouldn't be here.
KEIGHTLEY: They shouldn't be here.
SUCHANEK: That's right.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, that's - we didn't recruit them to come here to sit, we, werecruited them to come and play, and that's another thing that's kind of hard to sell to, to - well you just can't sell them that way.
KEIGHTLEY: You, you got to make them feel that you know, hey, one thingabout Coach Smith, and ever other coach I've ever been with, and all of them have been successful, they never told a kid he was going to be a starter, you know, that's one thing you can't do. You can tell him, you know, you, it's, it's possible, you know, you should, we've got a spot that you can play next year, but when you come 55:00in, you've got . . .
SUCHANEK and KEIGHTLEY: . . . to earn it.
KEIGHTLEY: And if you, and, and that happens to . . . some of the otherschools that, that try to . . . other schools will use that method to try to get good players for a year, and really, it, it, it works to their disadvantage, yes, some times they get them for, for a year, and it . . .
SUCHANEK: I think . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . doesn't work out, because if you promise a kid he is goingto play, his academics most of the time go down the drain and . . . and then, then he is at the end of the first year when he is, really was not ready to play, he is unhappy that he didn't, didn't . . . mature and play the way that he thought he was going to and then he blames the coach because he didn't play better, it was the 56:00coaches fault and . . .
SUCHANEK: I'm thinking . . . it seems like John Calipari at Memphis,recruits a lot of those, these kinds of players.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes he does, he does that.
SUCHANEK: You know that they'll stay a year or two.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, he is, he's got a pretty good bunch of those right now thathe seems to be playing pretty well at this time, but yes he did, he did that at UMass., and those schools are the . . . not necessarily, you know, pointing a finger at Memphis, but there are, there are schools that recruit different type athletes.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Oh I think that's true with U. of L., as compared toKentucky as well.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah well, and, and definitely Cincinnati.
SUCHANEK: Mm, right, exactly.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes.
SUCHANEK: Of course, now that Bob Huggins is gone . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, that . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . they might change.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . that may, yeah that can change.57:00
KEIGHTLEY: But, you know, there's, but, of course, Denny Crum alwayssaid, you know, and then, and you can't dispute it that, that he, that he is, was an educator and the fact education helps you prepared for a livelihood and he was, he was teaching them to be pro players and therefore, you know, they would earn the livelihood by playing pro ball, so you can't, you know, you can't question that theory.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. What I was referring to though, was more of a, it'snot likely that Coach Smith, and Coach Pitino will be going into the same house recruiting the same player (clears throat). It, it seems like, you know, we've, they're recruiting different kinds of players . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes.
SUCHANEK: . . . than we do here.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes, yes.
SUCHANEK: We are not in competition a lot of times for the same players, I,58:00I . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . is what I am saying.
KEIGHTLEY: No, that, that's, yeah, that's a, it's a rarity, yeah, it's a rarity.
SUCHANEK: No, Mike Shu . . . you might see Mike Krzyzewski coming outof the same house that Tubby Smith is going in.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, you could, you could do that one, or Roy Williams. . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . yes, in fact we, you know, we do, we do recruit a lot of thesame players, but . . . also these schools we are talking about, they like players that's going to stay.
KEIGHTLEY: Like stay for the duration, for the four years, it's, and it, thatmakes recruiting more difficult, then, then it used to be. It's hard to . . . it used to be you could recruit the top athlete in the country or a basketball player in the country when he came to college, he was going to stay, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't 59:00going to the pros, and a lot of our tradition has been built on that type player that definitely was not going to go pro, because the pros at that time, oh they had, maybe, twelve to sixteen teams and there wasn't that . . . many . . .
SUCHANEK: Opportun . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . positions available.
SUCHANEK: Right, Uh-huh.
KEIGHTLEY: And, and . . . and . . . now today you got that fine line, you wantthe very best athlete you can get, but you would like for him to stay, so it makes it really more difficult to recruit and keep the tradition where it has been, because they . . .
SUCHANEK: There is continuity.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . yeah, the continuity is, is just, is, is difficult, because of, ofthat situation with the pros. 60:00
SUCHANEK: Can you really compare different era players, could you com .. . could you compare, is it fair to compare players from the sixties with players from the s . . . from the eighties and the nineties and . . .
KEIGHTLEY: Oh I think I . . .
SUCHANEK: Do you think, do you think, you know, Tommy Kron and LouieDampier could play today?
KEIGHTLEY: I, yes, they, they, they, they could play today. They, yes, that,that entire team, they could play today. Now as to, if they could achieve that same success, you know, that, that would be the question because of the size of today's athletes. Now we did . . . in, in that tournament that year beat a great Michigan team that had a lot of size, but . . . I, you know, I don't know if you could go out there 61:00all season long and, and do that, that thing or not. So, yes you, you know, each, each era changes now, just like society, it's, the same, I know like, baseball, you know, we, we talked about that last year, the home runs dropped off considerably and, and we are not certain exactly why.
SUCHANEK: No, I think we are (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley).
KEIGHTLEY: But (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek) anyhow, it's, it's justdifficult to, to say how it, one era would, would . . . fare if they had to play today. I don't know, of course . . . the fabulous five, many games they, they, they took over a 62:00hundred shots, and you today know that they, sometimes I believe the last game we played we only take maybe fifty-eight or something like that, and . . .
SUCHANEK: And that's with the shot clock.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's with the shot clock. But . . . the, the shootingpercentages have definitely gone up over what they were, say in back in the forties, because we won a national championship in a game where we shot twenty-seven percent . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . against Kansas State, I, it was against Kansas State, wonby, by ten point, but we shot 27 percent. But, by the same token, I, I, and I think that 63:00group, each one of those starters on, on that team back then could play today. It's just a fact that shooting percentages have im, improved, although there is one, there is one shooting percentage that definitely has not improved, is foul shooting.
SUCHANEK: Oh, it's been terrible.
KEIGHTLEY: It is terrible today whereas it used to be really, really good.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Why do you think that is?
KEIGHTLEY: It all goes back to fundamentals. But . . . yeah they . . . each -now I, I will say this, I do believe that our 1978 team could play with any team in any era. I do believe that, because we had the size, we were physical, and we had 64:00sound fundamental skills and I, I'm not certain that, that 1978 team might not be one of the university's best.
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. How about . . . this is the last question for today,comrademi - comradery among, among teams, what, what, what team stands out in your mind as having the best . . . the, the players got along the best and they had the best comradery.
KEIGHTLEY: Well they, there's been, there has been a number of Jeff, of . ..
SUCHANEK: I mean some, sometimes you just got, you know, like whatwas it, three or four years ago, they . . . we had sort of a dysfunctional team it seems like everyone was going in different directions and sometimes the chemistry just isn't there.
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, it's, it's you know, it has to do with the . . . you know, the65:00individuals you recruit and, and yes that, that team was of, was a bad mix, but, you know, we finally got our, finally got her in order you know, it, it takes a while, you, you, you got to let a kid finally s . . . seek his own level, and when he does, he finds out that he don't fit this program and, but yeah, the, the chemistry of . . . of the, back again to the . . .
SUCHANEK: Fabulous five?
KEIGHTLEY: . . . the six - yes that, that was, that was huge on that team.The chemistry on our 1998 national championship team was . . .
SUCHANEK: Scott Padgett and that group?
KEIGHTLEY: Yes, oh that, you know, and, and the chemistry on the group66:00of kids we have now is good, is really good. The players all, you know, they care about each other, and it's just a matter now of us getting all of the pieces of the puzzle put together and it, it will happen, I can, you know, I can see every day that, that people are beginning to accept the roles, much like I was speaking of Berger and LeMaster and Tommy Porter and, and that, that group on the, with, with Kron and Conley and . . . that it will, it, it will happen. Of (Clears throat) the teams with . . . with . . . strong leader like Dan Issel always had, had good, good chemistry, and . . .
SUCHANEK: Who is leader on this year's team?67:00
SUCHANEK: Is that, is, has this year's team, has a leader emerged?
KEIGHTLEY: It has, it has . . .
SUCHANEK: Or is it, that's still being sorted out?
KEIGHTLEY: It's . . . right now . . . Ravi Moss, of course he is a senior and agreat student and a great human being. It's, it's a fact that he is . . . he's got to get them all under his wing, but, you know, we have a kid like . . . Rondo, Rajon, he, he, he is a, you know, he is a, a, extremely likeable young man and in fact, this team really, really does have good chemistry, like . . . Bobby Perry that just came through here and you, and a little, little Brandon Stockton the guy that's a great student, was Mr. Basketball in the state, never sulks, don't get to play, works hard in 68:00practice, and can play. He can play . . .
SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, he could ha . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . like the other night, he can shoot the ball.
THIRD PARTY: Here is your paper.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, he could, he could have . . .
KEIGHTLEY: You know this . . .
SUCHANEK: I think, I c . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . this, this team has unlimited possibilities, and of course,and when I speak of this team, I, I got to keep in the back of my mind, and hopeful that we can get the Randolph Morris thing straightened out, because he is a very likeable young man, and . . . and the other, the other, two big guys, the, the older big guys they are, they are very coachable and very . . .
SUCHANEK: They are just not . . .
KEIGHTLEY: . . . could yes, they, they . . .
SUCHANEK: . . . as, as talented.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . yes, they, and, and . . .
SUCHANEK: Gifted, I guess.
KEIGHTLEY: . . . you know what, they, they work hard as anybody in69:00practice, and, and they, they don't, they don't cause any chemistry problems, and there is not, not anybody on the team that does.
SUCHANEK: You know, the, the, speaking of, of chemistry and comradery,the, the, the two guys I en . . . I have enjoyed the most watching play was Erik Daniels and Chuck Hayes.
KEIGHTLEY: Uh-huh, yes.
THIRD PARTY: Steal an orange from you.
KEIGHTLEY: Thank you.
THIRD PARTY: Governor.
KEIGHTLEY: Governor, you're feeling better?
THIRD PARTY: A little bit. I'm still not all the way back yet though.
KEIGHTLEY: Hey, getting ready for a meeting?
THIRD PARTY: I guess so, yeah.
KEIGHTLEY: Okay. (Chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek)
SUCHANEK: But I enjoyed watching Chuck Hayes and Erik Daniels. Theyseemed like they knew exactly where the other one was going to be.
KEIGHTLEY: Oh yeah, yap, oh yeah, yeah. And you know what, yeah Imiss those two young men, I really do.
SUCHANEK: They, they had fun playing together.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they, they were, you know, great humanbeings. Erik Daniels, you know, was a kid when we recruited him I thought, man 70:00we wasted a scholarship (Laughter - Suchanek)
SUCHANEK: But he made himself a player.
KEIGHTLEY: He made himself a player and you know, I truly, truly miss himbecause he came in here every single day and would sit maybe for twenty to thirty minutes and joke around and you know, have, have a big time, and I just saw, you'd, you saw it in the paper where he might be one of the prime candidates to be called back up. You know he played in that CBA or whate. . .
SUCHANEK: Oh I didn't know that.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, I saw it in, I believe in yesterday's paper . . .
SUCHANEK: Who is it by?
KEIGHTLEY: . . . he gave a run down and, and he is averaging like twenty-two points and playing for Fayetteville.
SUCHANEK: It was about a month ago we saw him in here.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, uh-huh.
KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, and, and he is such a, you know, I really miss him71:00(Chuckle - Suchanek). He is from Cincinnati, and boy his mama, his mama runs him, I can tell you.
SUCHANEK: Well, you know, his, his battery never runs out, does it.
KEIGHTLEY: No, it do'n't. But you know, he, he was, you're right, and whata, you know, he was a joy to watch.
SUCHANEK: Yeah, I'm guessing he probably would be one of your betterpractice players too.
KEIGHTLEY: Oh God, yeah, because, you know what? He can handle the,the ball as well as any guard, and, but he, you know, he understood the game, and, and Chuck Hayes is, in that league he is playing in the same league is averaging about fifteen points and almost thirteen rebounds, and Chuck could play his way on, it's going to happen (Chuckle - Suchanek).
SUCHANEK: Well . . .
KEIGHTLEY: It's just a matter of time.72:00
SUCHANEK: Why don't we stop here for today, and then next time we'll, wewill talk about the seventies, all right?
KEIGHTLEY: Oh okay, okay.