SUCHANEK: Okay, why don't we go ahead and, and get started then Mr. Keightley, I wanted to talk a little bit more today about . . . finish our discussion on, on . . . Coach Rupp. We had talked a little bit ye . . . last Friday about his re . . . his recruitment of . . . African-American players, why, why do you think that he had, he waited so long to recruit African-American players . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Well, I . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . here, in Kentucky.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . he, he, he, again, I, I think it's the, the time line, you know, you, the, the south was, was segregated, and not only that (clears throat) a . . . as I, as I stated earlier, you go up east to the New York City and marquee coaches up there, Claire B. and Joe Lapchick, hey, they didn't, you know, they didn't recruit 1:00African-American players either, and . . .

SUCHANEK: And they didn't have to go so . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . speaking of that, huh, huh, Jeff, I did, since we started talking about that the other day, I had, you know, I had a little, a little history on this thing, on the timeline and, and how Coach Rupp handled each of the years while he was here, and this was perpetrated by charges made in, you know, it, was one of them was by a columnist that I respected but it was obviously, it was obvious that he did not know Coach Rupp and this being today is a political analyst, George Will, and, and then another one was by a guy, Curry Kirkpatrick that wrote for Sports Illustrated and another publication or two and . . . he, after, after his charges which 2:00he, he really was not acquainted with Coach Rupp, he, he fell victim to his own circumstances by double dipping and doing a few things that . . . caused him to be relieved from his position, so, yet that's the kind of people that want to, want to classify people, and, but . . . he, if it's permissible, I'd, I'd kind of like to go over this, this thing with you.

SUCHANEK: Sure, go ahead. I forgot to do my introduction. This is an unrehearsed interview with William B. Keightley for the, University of Kentucky Library, Charles T. Wethington UK Alumni Faculty Oral History Project, the interview is conducted by Jeffrey Suchanek on November the 8th, 2005 in Mr. Keightley's office here in Memorial Coliseum in Lexington, Kentucky. Okay, Sir.

KEIGHTLEY: Well, as I stated earlier, Coach Rupp had a black player on his 3:00first three teams at Freeport, Illinois from 1927 to 1930. The player's name was William Mosley, now and from 1938 through the 1940s, Coach Rupp (phone ringing sound) - well I better get this might be Jeff . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . I don't know, did I tell you he, he had . . . conducted coaching clinics from 1938 through the forties at Kentucky State University which was a, you know, an all-black school.

SUCHANEK: Right, mm-mm.

KEIGHTLEY: And, and then in 1948, Coach Rupp selected the first black player to be named to the United States Olympic basketball team, and the player's name was Don Barksdale, 1950. Coach Rupp was a guest speaker for the National 4:00Champion Paris Western High School, all-black school; 1951, we play Saint Johns in Lexington. Coach Rupp requested that sports editors for the Lexington Herald write a column asking all fans to be courteous, respectful to Saint John's Sallie Walker; the game went without incident. 1950s, University of Kentucky played any and all teams that had black players. 1957, President Frank Dickey and Coach Rupp petitioned the SEC to integrate their basketball and football programs. They were unanimously voted down. In 1958, the University of Kentucky played Seattle University with all-American Elgin Baylor to win their third NCAA championship; 5:001961, President Dickey and Coach Rupp again petitioned the SEC to integrate their athletic programs and were unanimously voted down. 1963, Coach Rupp recruited Wesley Unseld; 1964 he recruited Butch Beard, in 1966, he recruited Perry Wallace; 1966 he recruited Howard Porter, in 1967 he recruited Felix Thurston; 1967 he recruited Jim Rawls. In 1967, he recruited Ron Thomas, 1968 Jim McDaniels; 1968 Jerome Perry; 1969, he recruited Tom Payne, in 1969 and 6:00seventy, Darryl Bishop and Elmore Stevens, walked on to play for Coach Rupp. Both were on football scholarships at the University of Kentucky. In 1970, coach Rupp recruited Darnell Hillman and . . . he, he turned pro. In 1972, of course, Coach Rupp retired, but he then became general manager of the Kentucky Colonel and the Memphis Tams, which were part of the ABA, and he negotiated the trade to bring Ron Thomas back to Kentucky for the Colonels. So, you know, that's, that's kind of the history of what he tried to do at recruiting wise, and, you know, that 7:00thing, of course, that national timeline, now the south was not segregated but it was a lot of violence at that, at that time, and . . .

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, Mm-mm. Well do you think that was part of the reason perhaps is, is that he, he knew he had to take his team to places like Starkville, Mississippi, and . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Oh well absolutely, yes, yes. I, I know, I know why he personally about two years ago, there was an all-American from UCLA here and his name was Willie Naulls who is now a minister, and Willie played for John Wooden. They played here in the UKIT and Willie was telling me how Coach Rupp came down to the Lafayette Hotel to be certain he was being treated the same as every 8:00other member on that team and could receive the same services.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, what year was that?

KEIGHTLEY: This was 1954.

SUCHANEK: Okay, mm-mm.

KEIGHTLEY: Willie Naulls. He was a, was an all-American at UCLA.

SUCHANEK: And I think, probably at that time . . . you probably . . . African- Americans probably couldn't get served at places like this . . .

KEIGHTLEY: That's right, that's . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . Phoenix Hotel.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . absolutely right, and they could not, yes. And, you know, Coach Rupp did these things and, and really . . .

SUCHANEK: Why doesn't he get the credit?

KEIGHTLEY: He, he, he just, you know why he doesn't get credit for having been . . . potentate of the Shriners, the Shriners Hospital, they treated every kid of all creed, color, whatever.

SUCHANEK: Well how do you think this, this . . . perception of, of Coach Rupp has, has lived on and on since then?


KEIGHTLEY: Well, it's, I, I tell you . .why... as I said the other day, it's obvious now, most people writing about it, didn't, didn't know Coach Rupp. But it, it's the, the little tidbits, you know, it came from us playing Texas Western.

SUCHANEK: Right, I mean, every March, it seems like, you know . . .

KEIGHTLEY: That's right, yeah.

SUCHANEK: . . . ESPN wants to run footage of that 1966 . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, it was, yes.

SUCHANEK: . . . championship game with Texas Western . . .


SUCHANEK: . . . which was an all-black team.

KEIGHTLEY: It wants to surface.


KEIGHTLEY: And . . .

SUCHANEK: Against Kentucky who was all-white . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, yes.

SUCHANEK: . . . and of course Texas Western won that game.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, and, and . . .

SUCHANEK: What do you remember about that game?

KEIGHTLEY: Well, I, you know what? The thing we played Duke the night before, and I believe we maybe defeated Duke by four to six points, and . . . of course Texas Western won their game, I don't really . . . Don Haskins was a, was a 10:00coach at . . . Texas Western, but they had not received any national publicity, and, and you know, at, back then, I guess, maybe somewhat like it is today, if you get a lot of ink people think, think you're a lot better, but . . . it was very easily to tell in the game that Texas Western played that, you know, they were a quality ball club and they were a very serious threat, and, but you always, we had, that was such an outstanding team and - our team, we, we had all kinds of confidence that, we, we could, we could handle the game okay, not overconfident but we, we could, we could survive it. And then we had . . . Larry Conley, of course there was always two 11:00days between the semi finals and the finals, Larry Conley became ill, and Pat Riley had strained his back. Well, we did not have that, that much depth and somewhere, right here, I'd . . .

SUCHANEK: I've got a roster. Is that what you're looking for?

KEIGHTLEY: I'm trying, looking for something, I s . . . still have the . . . Oh, you got it.

SUCHANEK: I've got the roster.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I've . . .

SUCHANEK: But I don't, I don't have the game stats.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . I've got the . . . yes, I've got the . . . over here somewhere, in this basket, I have that . . .

SUCHANEK: The stats . . . from that game?

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, uh-huh, the, the official stats of the game. But, you know, and, and I, it, it wa'n't, it wa'n't in our mind that we counted how many, you know, African-American players were there. Hey, you know, there was already, as 12:00far as we were concerned here at Kentucky, you know, people are people, you don't, you don't classify them, yeah, we're not, we're not putting one race against another race, we, you know, it was just, these are young men playing against young men, and . . . it was not perceived any other way. The only people that tried to perceive it someway that was, was again a guy like George Will who I respect. I think he is a, a really a good political analyst, and I think he is a, he is a great sports fan.

SUCHANEK: Mm - yeah.

KEIGHTLEY: But . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . baseball fan, anyway, mm-mm.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . but sometimes, sometimes you know, the pin runneth away (chuckle - Suchanek). Sometimes, (chuckle - Keightley) the pen will say things that's not true, and . . . so . . . I know Dave Kindred who is, you may know 13:00Dave Kindred, he is, he was another respected writer for the Courier Journal for a great number of years and then went to Washington, I believe, for the Washington Post, and he has a tape of Coach Rupp's life. He interviewed him, like you're interviewing me, and he has Coach Rupp's life, and nowhere in that tape does he make any racist statement of any kind in his, in his taped version of his life, and Dave Kindred says he doesn't understand why people don't come to him. Maybe, maybe they are afraid they'll find out the truth. So . . . yes it's a, you know, it's a, it's a . . . another writer, he was sports information person here and, and a real, real 14:00great writer for the old Lexington Leader. That was the afternoon paper before he became sports information director here, was Russell Rice, and he's written numerous articles on it . . .

SUCHANEK: Well we, yeah, we got . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . and he just lay, he just like, you know, in fact he and I came about the same time and, you know, we . . . we were the w . . . with, with a man then who was comfortable with himself and o . . . none of us ever heard, this is all, it, it, it really bothers me that we got people that want to perceive it that way, but you know what's like politics, you, you . . . you perceive it however you believe to start with, and if a, if a person makes one little mistake, boy you like to go out and 15:00beat on your chest and, and point look I didn't vote for him . . .

SUCHANEK: What . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . and then hoping really that he does fail (laughter - Suchanek and Keightley)

SUCHANEK: Well how was it when Tom Payne came on the team? Did . . . di . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Well he, he was a . . . Tom Payne, his first year here, academic-wise he, he had to lay out, he played with the . . . we had a team here locally, Marathon Oil, and he played with that team what would have been, you know, his f . . . his freshman year. Now his first year here, he was just really a part of the team, there wa'n't anything . . . anything any different, he was married and he lived in Cooperstown, and one of my best buddies today (phone ringing sound) he really, really helped Tom a lot because you know, Tom was married and he had 16:00no, no way, and any support other than on his scholarship - let me get this thing.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah . . . now Tom, as I say, lived, they, they lived in the apartment that was side by side, and Tom used to, used to take them food (unintelligible) to Tom Payne and his wife and they befriended them in every way possible, and we had, you know, we had a lot of big people at that time, we had Jim Andrews, and Mark Soderberg was still here, and then we had Tom Payne, and Tom was a, was an, a skilled player, but he was a, a, just a, a clean-cut human being and you know, you, you would never, you could not tell at that point that he 17:00would go off of the beaten path somewhere along the way, which happens every day.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. How long did he . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . with many, many people.

SUCHANEK: How many years did he play here?

KEIGHTLEY: He actually just played one.

SUCHANEK: One year, okay.


SUCHANEK: Yeah, then what happened to him?

KEIGHTLEY: Well he, he left here and he was going to play pro ball. I, he, you know, I guess the academics may have been part of the problem, but . . . he, he left here and he, he needed to make money, because he'd become a family man and then, and, he, he . . .

SUCHANEK: He wound up in prison, didn't he?

KEIGHTLEY: . . . tried to play pro ball and, and that didn't pan out, so he just started, after he got away from here, you know, college is, and I, I think sports 18:00especially, in spite of all the atrocities you see that some of these kids get themselves into, sports is good for young people because it, it gives them some discipline that otherwise they wouldn't have. That is if the institution had emphasized discipline, and I've always been proud of the fact that, that we, that we do that.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. He wound up in, in the penitentiary, didn't he?

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, and you know, I guess, Jeff, I guess he is still in there.

SUCHANEK: Yeah, I think so, and I think he is very ill . . . the last time I heard. You know I, I, just in a few sessions we've had, you've got former players and . . . alumni coming in here all the time to talk to you. When did that, when did that all started. Did Tom Payne ever come back and, and kind of hang . . .

KEIGHTLEY: No, I have, I have not seen Tom Payne but, but one time and, and did not converse with him at that time.


SUCHANEK: Okay, uh-huh.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, no, I did not see him in.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Let's, let's get off . . . the, the issue of race with . . . with Coach Rupp. I think we've covered that pretty well. I want to know more about Coach Rupp as a coach. Did the players like him?

KEIGHTLEY: Well, they, they, the players respected him. Now, I'm going to tell you, it's . . . athletics is no different from . . . private enterprise out here, or working at Toyota or wherever, when, you know, the coach is a man that's going to make demands on you, and you, you're going to have to do things you don't like to do. Now as, you know, and, you, you, you can't disagree with it but you would like to, so therefore he can't say, boy, well, as Otto Graham one time said, the worse, the, the . . . worse compliment you can pay to a coach is, the boys all love him 20:00(Laughter - Suchanek). That's the worse compliment you can pay to a coach. Yes, they're going to be demanding, but they are, you, you also, it's a, it's a tight rope. You have to keep the respect and hey, they respected Coach Rupp.

SUCHANEK: You know, you often hear . . . especially in baseball, somebody will refer to a manager as a player's manager.


SUCHANEK: And then always, doesn't always work out very well.

KEIGHTLEY: No, that means that the players are running the clubhouse, or the prisoners are running the institution.

SUCHANEK: So, under Coach Rupp that wouldn't happen in here.

KEIGHTLEY: No, I, that would not happen, no.

SUCHANEK: Okay, uh-huh, okay.

KEIGHTLEY: No sir, and he had his, Harry Lancaster, who was his assistant for many years, was the enforcer of disciplinary measures.


SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Now back then it (Phone ringing sound) - go ahead.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I told you, he is sixth in seniority and, you know, he is up there about three-hundred-fifty-thousand a year with his per diem, which you or I could live off of.

SUCHANEK: Right (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley). Well you know, they fought hard for those, for, for, for that money.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes sir, yeah (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley), yeah.

SUCHANEK: You know, and they say nobody pays to see an umpire (Laughter - Suchanek). How about . . . Coach Rupp . . . half time? Was he a s . . . was he a screamer?

KEIGHTLEY: Huh, yes, he, he was, yes, as I told you the other day, like somebody, they were ahead, whatever, fifty to six or whatever, and some, 22:00somebody had four to six points but you know, that's when he was really funny too. Oh yes, he w . . . he was, he was very demanding, very demanding, but we won the games on fundamentals because we executed better than other teams, and as I said earlier, of course (clears throat) in the sixties, the game had changed to the fact you did have some people shooting the, the jump shots in, in the early years you had none of it.

SUCHANEK: Well, I wanted to . . . cover that today too. You know in, in the deca . . . decade of the sixties and especially the late sixties, you had . . . you had Coach Rupp, and you had other, other coaches who . . . let's say were o . . . old school, and . . . people like Hank Iba, Woody Hayes . . . John Wooden, Frank 23:00McGuire, Al McGuire . . .


SUCHANEK: And . . . and Ray Meyer at DePaul . . . how did . . . wa . . . was it difficult for them to relate to . . . the students, especially in the mid to late sixties, the players, because it was a different era.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, it was a different era, but . . . no I, Jeff, I, I don't think it was difficult for them to relate because it goes back to what we s . . . spoke of earlier, these, these fellows, everyone of them you've named, had respect because they'd survived the years and had been successful and when a man is really being successful, we'll say like Henry Ford, it's hard to second guess him when you try to 24:00make another automobile and say yours is better. After a man has been in it and prove what, what his product can do, and that's what these coaches they had a product and, and they had sold it to the players through the years and the players that you recruit to come in, is that by and large is going to join your system and those that don't, they, they have to hit the road, but they respect these, these guys because of the . . . the success they had. You know even in, in the sixties, it was a different era but respect still was very much in the scenario of, of every day activities . . .

SUCHANEK: Because . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . it hadn't completely left the scene.

SUCHANEK: . . . because you know, in, especially in the later sixties with the war protest, it seemed like, you know, there was a, a, the, the, the younger people were rebelling against . . . this quote, unquote, this system . . .


KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, the system, that's right.

SUCHANEK: . . . right, and, and I was wondering if that, if that also carried over you know, to the, to the athletics.

KEIGHTLEY: Well, unequivocally I could say no it did not, because that was, and, and again, of the, the gentlemen that you've named I don't think they ever had any problems in, in the sixties. Maybe, maybe the younger coaches may have had problems, I can't speak for them because, you know, I, I, I'm not aware of it, but, by the same token, these people that you've named, oh I, they, they had, they had no problems, because there was still too much respect to be infiltrated by those that don't care . . . well, well I guess they, they care but to upset the system that you have.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. How about you as during that, that era of the sixties . 26:00. . being in charge of the equipment in the equipment room and, and court time and that kind of thing, you had mentioned, in one of our earlier sessions that today players come in at, at all times of the day to shoot around or to, to get in their weight work or whatever, back then, did you ever . . . did you notice a change in the, the attitudes towards the student athlete, toward the commitment towards improvement, self improvement?

KEIGHTLEY: W . . . well it, in . . . I, in the sixties, you know, we were pretty much regimented because they still had Coach Rupp and even when he retired they had Coach Hall and it was pretty much like when I was in the marines, we had, we had a system and, and the young folks had, they, they didn't have much 27:00choice but to come in and, and operate as we had been, again . . . nobody was going to upset the, the machine that we had, or that Woody Hayes had up at, at . . . Ohio State. His philosophy, you know, he, he was a, no, he was different from Coach Rupp, because Coach Rupp wouldn't hit somebody with a bounds marker . . .

SUCHANEK: (Laughter - Suchanek) Or his fist.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . but, but I always remember a statement that Coach Hayes made and, and this carries with me to this day. He said - he was talking about statistics. He says, "statistics always remind me of a man who drowned in a river that's averaged depth was three feet," (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley) I, I, that's, that's the way I feel about it and now, now today we keep a wealth of 28:00statistics, and . . . I . . . as how I, I don't think one of those stats ever shot the ball and, and hit a three pointer at the buzzer (Laughter - Suchanek). I think it's still a player (Chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek). But I, I don't think that I - oh yeah, you like it in, in baseball you want a batting average, yes, but we'll talked about, you know, turnovers and rebounds and, a, you know what, maybe, maybe you didn't get a rebound but, maybe you blocked off two people so the other guy could get the rebound. So you get zilch when it comes to a statistic. The other guy gets it, but you're the man responsible, so that's kind of the way I view this sea of statistics.

SUCHANEK: How about Coach Rupp's relationship with other coaches? 29:00Did he have, did he have a, a, a rivalry with, with any particular coaches?

KEIGHTLEY: No, I, he, he, ne . . . maybe Bob Hickey at Saint Louis might be one, and then . . . a little, he always called him Little Cliffy Wells at Tulane. Now back in, back in the, the late forties Tulane was a basketball power.


KEIGHTLEY: And . . .

SUCHANEK: Yeah, I was going to mention to you too that in the, in the early sixties you had Georgia Tech and Tulane as part of the SEC.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, well, and, and Whack Hyder was a little bit of a nemesis because Whack beat him three or four times and he beat him in, you know, in the coliseum here the, to break that hundred-twenty-nine game win streak or whatever, and he had a little hard time beating Whack Hyder and . . . then . . . another one that 30:00kind of got under his skin a little bit was Ray Mears at Tennessee because you know, he'd, he was a coach that held the ball who didn't have a, didn't have a shot clock and he, he d . . . he didn't want to, well he wouldn't, he wouldn't get in to a running game with you and you couldn't run if you couldn't get the ball and they wouldn't shoot it so we could get it. So that kind of got on Adolph nerves a little bit.

SUCHANEK: Kind of like that four-corner offense.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah that, that Dean Smith, yes, yes, yeah I, I haven't forgotten that one in 1977, and there, there is a, there is a guy who was a great person too, Dean Smith.

SUCHANEK: Now when you play these other coaches at Coach Rupp had a little rivalry, would he try to get the troops, the, the, the team up a little bit more to, to beat that team?

KEIGHTLEY: Oh yes, oh yes, oh yeah, yeah, you've got, yes, you've got, like 31:00Coach Rupp used to say, "you can't take a team and right before you go to the floor in the locker room say, well, boys, tonight is the night, you got to lay it all on the line," he said, "you can't do that every night out, you got to save a little bit for some night when you need a little extra," (Chuckle - Suchanek) and if you preached that every time out, they don't pay much attention to it, so yes, that, that's, that's true.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Did you ever hear him give any kind of 'Win one for the gipper' speeches?

KEIGHTLEY: No (Laughter - Keightley) no, no-o-o, not that kind. That's . . . one of the funniest that I, that, of course I wasn't in the locker room to hear this one, but . . . one of the funny ones that, he, he would come up with, you know, this was with the fabulous five and Wah Jones is a good friend of mine, and Wah was a 32:00member of the fabulous five, but . . . Wah's brother Hugh went to the service and he came back and went to the University of Tennessee. So, they are going down there, going to play Tennessee, and Hugh Jones was, was really a, a pretty good player and Coach Rupp got the, our kids in the locker room (chuckle - Keightley) and, and he is telling them, he said, "well fellows tonight we are down here in Knoxville, Tennessee, and you know those orange, oranges will be coming at you from all angles and they will just try to beat your butt off and everyone of them is an SOB except your brother, Wah (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley).


SUCHANEK: I guess Wah Wah tells that one, doesn't he (Laughter - Suchanek)

KEIGHTLEY: (unintelligible) yeah, yeah.

SUCHANEK: So . . .

KEIGHTLEY: And, and, and then another, you know, talking about that, another one, well he - we were, speaking here a while ago of the Barksdale, Don Barksdale who, who was a heck of a player but he and a guy that played . . . up at NYU joined the fabulous five, and they played a game here on Stahl Field, to decide who would go to the Olympics. Well we'd played the Phillips Oilers. Now when I say who would go to the Olympics, it was already been predestined that, that (Phone ringing sound) the fabulous five was going to go - I'm going to let it go.



KEIGHTLEY: The fabulous five were going to go and, and the Phillips Oilers, but Bud Browning, (Phone stops ringing) Bud Browning was coaching the Phillips Sixty-Sixers and, as I say, they set the court up out on Stahl Field and they, they played it of the night, and the Oilers won, Cliff Barker got a broken nose and the Oilers beat the fabulous five 52 to 49. Well, after the game was over, Adolph, they came to the locker room. Now, Bud Browning was the coach of the Oilers so that made him the head coach, and Adolph was going to have to be the assistant, but Adolph says to the, to the players, "well fellows, I want to thank you SOBs for making me an assistant coach for the first time in my life." (Laughter - Suchanek 35:00and Keightley). Yes, but . . .

SUCHANEK: How about in your own life in the 1960s, you had mentioned before that your daughter Karen was born in 1962.


SUCHANEK: Working at the post office, these tremendous social and cultural upheavals during the sixties . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Oh yes, yes.

SUCHANEK: . . . you know, the, the Kennedy assassination in '63, the war in Vietnam, beginning, I don't know how much you were on campus at that time to see protests and that kind of thing.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, oh yes, yes.

SUCHANEK: . . . you know, the . . . the culture changed amongst the young people, you know, the bell bottom pants, the long hair, the hippie kind of movement, the peace movement, that kind of thing, the burning of the ROTC building, going to the moon, you know, civil rights . . . there was just a - that decade 36:00was just chock full of, of change in, in society and, and, and, and things happening around the world, and, how did that af . . . how did you, how did you live in that decade and, and I grew up in that decade, but, you know, being at that time I guess you were what, fort . . . in your forties . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, right.

SUCHANEK: . . . what was that like?

KEIGHTLEY: Well . . . you know what, it was a tumultuous time and also it, it was . . . was good also in the fact that the economy was beginning to, to . . . come forward enough where you can make a living wage and now, as we were talking about that first, and of course I had, was working here part time, and then I also, 37:00another, another fellow that I carried mail with and myself, we did a little, in the summertime when I wa'n't here, we did a little interior decorating, we had a little paint business going (Chuckle - Keightley)

SUCHANEK: Oh did you!

KEIGHTLEY: But, you know, it, at that time I guess, and, and, you're a little bit older and you see young people maybe not exactly taking the same route that you had, had laid out for them, and thinking maybe they didn't have much perception of what life was about and probably today they will tell you the same thing now today. You, you know, there is some of it you hated to see and, and then there was some you know, campaigning for things that, that probably was justified, but . . . you know, we were talking about the hippie generation, you know, today 38:00Jeff, I am talking about just right here, in Lexington, I probably know more old hippies than anybody in Lexington, and in fact I had a, a couple yesterday call me, they, they were intending to come by. But now I mean they're back in the mainstream, they don't have the long flowing hair and . . .

SUCHANEK: Right, they're . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . yeah, they, they're back to being . . .

SUCHANEK: Conservatives.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . where we, where we started, it's (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley), so, yeah they, they, yeah the college campus was somewhat of a turmoil and, but they . . . they had one leader here, the hippie movement did, that had more influence on them than the college president and anybody else, and his name was Carl May. If you wanted and, and the, the . . . police department, UK 39:00officials, if they wanted to do anything with that so called hippie movement, they'd go to Carl, and Carl was a bright young man and he, he didn't, you know, he didn't advocate destruction and all that. They were just wanting to be heard, but Carl would, would take care of whatever demands that, that the administration or the police would, would ask him to do. He'd, and, and they would listen to him.

SUCHANEK: Was he president of the student government or something?

KEIGHTLEY: No, he wasn't, he was just, he was just a (chuckle - Keightley) self appointed leader of that group (Laughter - Keightley). Yeah I'd kind of forgotten about Carl until we s . . . we s . . . started this little conversation, but he, he was a real great guy.

SUCHANEK: How did you get to know him?

KEIGHTLEY: I knew him because he . . . worked down at a little eatery down 40:00here on, on Woodland Avenue, Linahs, and he worked in there as, as a server and then, well, then I really, well I got to know him, I guess so, actually at the basketball games . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . I mean he was a avid basketball fan and that, that group would get tickets and sat together and they, of course . . .

SUCHANEK: Yeah they did, did, the hippie movement didn't, I mean they were all still basketball fans, weren't they.

KEIGHTLEY: Oh yes, yes, yes, that's right, yes, and, they, you know, the way you could identify them back at that time was by their dress, you know, we were still somewhat of a groomed (chuckled - Keightley) public function here, pretty well groomed but you know, the hippies were a little, a little shaggy kind of like Merle Haggard's 'I am an Okie from Muskogee," . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . did you ever hear the song?

SUCHANEK: Sure, Uh-huh.



KEIGHTLEY: That pretty well surmises that, that movement, but it, it was . . .


SUCHANEK: How about Coach Rupp and, and, and, we talked about discipline, him being a disciplinarian, did the players have to keep their hair short or, or . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Oh yes-yes-yes, that never, oh no that was . . .

SUCHANEK: So they kind of stuck out, as . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's right, yes, yes . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . far as athletes would . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . all this, yeah we . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . would . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . didn't . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . yeah, on campus you would . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . no, you, that, that was never a problem.

SUCHANEK: Okay, uh-huh.

KEIGHTLEY: Never a problem.

SUCHANEK: How about in, and I don't know how much you would want to talk about this but, you know, this is, as I say we signed that agreement . . . how about any, any kind of drug use on, on the team during that, that hippie, were you ever aware of any kind of disciplinary problems like that, or alcohol abuse amongst the athletes?

KEIGHTLEY: I, y . . . at, at that time, as far as drugs were concerned, I'd, I had absolutely did not know of any players that was involved in, in any, any kind of, 42:00of marijuana, or whatever drugs in, and . . . and of course alcohol, you, you, yeah, I guess, I guess kids have always drank a beer or two, not, not necessarily players but I'm, you know, probably somewhere along the line and somewhere when they're away from here, but the . . . the, the . . . here, if you are a, an athlete, and most especially a basketball player you're highly identifiable and you can't go anywhere that somebody don't know you. If you went, we'll say into, into a restaurant to eat today, not to a bar, a restaurant to eat where you can order a beer, you had, and you had a beer, anybody in there that saw you is likely they're going 43:00to say oh I saw so-and-so over at the Merrick Inn, and he had a beer.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, what . . .

KEIGHTLEY: See, he is not supposed to do that.

SUCHANEK: It reminds me just a couple of years ago when, when we had a couple of players try to get in a place . . .


SUCHANEK: . . . with fake Ids . . .


SUCHANEK: . . . like people don't know who they are (chuckle - Suchanek)

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's right, yeah, right, you know, you don't got the, yes (chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek) I, yeah, I know the kids, yeah, (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek).

SUCHANEK: You know like the . . .

KEIGHTLEY: But . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . like the bouncer is not going to know who they are.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, and, yeah, you can't, there is no way you can hide, you know, your identity. I am not a player but you know what I can't, Jeff, it's difficult for me to go to any place and, and eat, that, that . . .

SUCHANEK: Hhh, I'll bet!

KEIGHTLEY: . . . that don't wind up in some kind of (Laughter - Suchanek) you know, big, big discussion about is so-and-so doing and when is he going to be back and, you know, and how is the recruiting going at . . .



KEIGHTLEY: . . . and it's a . . .

SUCHANEK: It's a twe . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . that's the reason I, you know, that for lunch, I rarely leave here, rarely, because one of the kids will bring me a hamburger, or a chili dog or a soup . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . or something, because, you, you can't go to any restaurant, and you know what, that's, that's a great part about it. People really care, they want to know, and, by gosh, you know, they, they have, they have, they have a right to know, but I just don't want to have to educate all of them (Chuckle - Suchanek and Keightley).

SUCHANEK: It's a twenty-four-seven job, isn't it?

KEIGHTLEY: It is, yes it is, if you're, if you're in public, you're on display, and that's no getting away from it and, and I guess, in my case, what's happened, I've been around, you know, so long there is no way that you can really hide your identity, and not that I would want to but, there, there is not, it's not that I, what I've 45:00done, it happened to be the position I'm in, which is, you know, a low profile position, but highly recognizable.

SUCHANEK: And, and you've got, you've got a lot of institutional memory.

KEIGHTLEY: Well, oh yes, yes sir, oh yeah, yeah. And all, again it (unintelligible) . . .

SUCHANEK: That's why I'm asking you about Coach Rupp (chuckle - Suchanek)

KEIGHTLEY: That's right, yes, but that's what I say, you know, life is, is just a collection of memories and it's too bad and for all of us that, that has to end at sometime, because you have a wealth of material and knowledge of things that other people may not have. Now you don't have sole knowledge, but, you, you, you just got more knowledge than most people are going to have.


SUCHANEK: Life experience, right?

KEIGHTLEY: That's right, that's, yeah, it's called life, that's what it is.

SUCHANEK: Back in the sixties, where were, where were some of the tougher places to go play on the road?

KEIGHTLEY: Well, in . . .

SUCHANEK: And has it changed overtime?

KEIGHTLEY: Well the, y . . . the tougher places . . . in the SEC was in the sixties, definitely Tennessee because they had the, they had the Stokely Arena and Tennessee was tough, Vandy has always been a tough place to go, and . . . in the, in the sixties was Babe McCarthy, Mississippi State was really tough, because Babe 47:00was a great coach, and he recruited a lot of Kentucky kids that . . . from the western part of the state that, you know, we didn't recruit here because . . . they never got much publicity, the kids in the western part of the state, Joe Dan Gold and and . . . guys of, Bailey Howell and people like that never got the publicity and they were All- American players, but they were unknown back in, in the sixties. The, the media has really cultivated the growth of athletics and . . . you know, it's, I guess with a lot of coaches it's a love-hate relationship. You, you need, you need the 48:00media, although back in the sixties the media, well, did not compare to it today, because you didn't have the TV. Now today, you know, you won't play a game that's not on TV somewhere at some time, even if it's delayed.

SUCHANEK: I was going to ask you, you know, especially in the seventies, I guess television was the, was the thing that really influenced college athletics. It really made it big time.

KEIGHTLEY: Oh sure! Yes it did, it made it and we, you know, we have to give them, give them credit for creating the interest.

SUCHANEK: I mean I, I don't, it's, it's rare, a rare UK basketball game, as you say, that's not on some place.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, it, it, you can get it, and . . . of course as a kid, I can remember, of course, just struggling to even hear a score, but . . . yeah the, the 49:00media has . . . well, okay, you know, today for . . . a big game, you may have a hundred and fifty people apply for media passes, and we will say in nineteen and . . . fifty, maybe you'd have fifteen.

SUCHANEK: (Chuckle - Suchanek) Yeah.

KEIGHTLEY: Now, every little publication, and I won't say is little publication, but every publication they would like to have media credentials, to see any, any big game, like when we play North Carolina, I, I suspect you can fill the lower arena with media people (chuckle - Keightley and Suchanek).


KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . yes, or Duke, yes, yes, so . . . but we have to give them 50:00credit for the - and I, I'll tell you an individual I'll give credit to and, you know, most people don't want to listen to him and he can get a little loud, it's Dick Vitale but you know what, he's been a great ambassador. There's no taking that away from him, oh I think we talked about him earlier.


KEIGHTLEY: Maybe, yes.

SUCHANEK: I don't know if we did it on tape or not but . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah we talked about him earlier because I was telling you, you know, about him always wanting me to send him some apparel, having his address and so forth, a long (unintelligible) key.


KEIGHTLEY: Sarasota, yeah I told you that. That's the trouble about having too much knowledge (Laughter - Keightley and Suchanek). You might want to tell it the second time.

SUCHANEK: You know, it, comparing, and this might not be a - ask me if you can compare . . . Tubby Smith with Adolph Rupp, it appears to me, at least on 51:00the surface from what I see, is that . . . Coach Smith and Coach Rupp . . . Coach Smith appears to be old school in that . . . well, is that a fair comparison?

KEIGHTLEY: Absolutely is! Yeah, he is, he is old school by today standards and, and oh what in, in, in the, the common, the common denominator here is . . . Coach Smith grew up in a large family and they had to be extremely disciplined and of course, of course Coach Rupp was disciplined and preached discipline, but yes, that's a, that's, that's a fair assumption, Jeff; he believes, he believes every day, Coach Smith in talking to the kids, keeps preaching to them about doing the 52:00right thing on the court, off the court, in the classroom, to be the very best person you could be and you've got to, you've got to believe in each other. He preaches unity, and, you know, you got, you got to help your teammates, you got to help your fellow students, and he, yes, he preaches that every day and that's, that is, that's a, a fair assumption.

SUCHANEK: And it seems like . . . when I say old school, especially on the court, and straighten me out if I'm wrong, it seems like Coach Smith recruits defensive players first, you know, he is, most players he recruits are absolute defenders and the scoring comes second, comes s . . . comes, comes secondly. 53:00And it seems w . . . is that a fair . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yes he, he is, he gets number one, he (Phone ringing sound) he tries to recruit . . .

SUCHANEK: Did you want to get that?

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, I better take it . . . oh Lord!

SUCHANEK: Anyway, we were talking about Coach Smith and . . . and . . . in his, his recruiting basically . . .


SUCHANEK: . . .defense.

KEIGHTLEY: Well, number one, he wants to recruit a good student, and first a good person, that, that's, that's . . .the first two requisite. And then he, he, you know, naturally he looks for the good athlete, and you can, you can, you can teach 54:00them to play defense, you can. Defenses just want to do it, and after you're exposed to him, you soon learn that you need to get ready to do that.

SUCHANEK: (Laughter - Suchanek) Yeah right, or you're not going to play much.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, that's right, yeah, you're not going to play much.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, and it seems like . . . Coach Smith . . . recruits, recruits different players than, than some other coaches in, at prominent schools. It's almost like he goes after . . . and, and they're, they're talented players, but they may not be ranked in the top thirty but they're solid players . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Well . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . and I don't know if, if his philosophy is, he, he is recruiting players to play three or four years . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah well . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . rather than . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . that's . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . one or two?

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, it's, you know, there, there is some that go after the, you know, the marquee for one and out, but you know what, other than at Syracuse, 55:00that, that never got a championship, Carmelo Anthony but you, you know, most of the time you want to, you want to keep them at least three.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Do you go on many recruiting trips, at . . .

KEIGHTLEY: No, I, you know, at one time I did but now the schedule is changed so much that, that I don't. Now at one time, I went a lot.

SUCHANEK: W . . . under what coach or coaches?

KEIGHTLEY: I, I, I travel, I travel a lot with Rick . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . and, and Joe B.


KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, both of them.

SUCHANEK: Okay. Huh, one thing I wanted to do is, is just run some players names by you here in the, in the early sixties and, and just have you tell me what, what you can remember about them. I'm looking at the . . . (paper shuffling 56:00sound) oh let's see the first, the first couple of years you were there, you . . . Cotton Nash, what do you remember about . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Lake Charles, Louisiana.

SUCHANEK: What do you remember about Cotton Nash?

KEIGHTLEY: Well, I, I, I do, I remember when they were recruiting and he . . . was listed as, you know, as six-five when . . . actually he was six-six, but well I just remember, you know, he was the fair haired kid that was the great, great athlete, that not only he was a good basketball player but was, could have been a standout in any sport, and . . . I know to . . . get a commitment from Cotton, you know, was 57:00one of the highlights of Coach Rupp's career because Cotton was a three-time all American, and . . . he . . . we didn't . . . we wa'n't, he wa'n't surrounded by the greatest talent of any great player that we ever had here, and Cotton was a guy that never truly had a position because he could play all three positions and he, and he had to play, even now, as they would say, the five spot, the center spot. He had, he, he could play guard, he was a forward he could play any of those position that he was such a flamboyant looking young man and that long blonde hair - now when I say long, I am not talking about hippie long, I'm just talking about a full head, and 58:00he was a, you know, he was a matinee idol, that's, that's what you call him, a matinee idol.

SUCHANEK: (Chuckle - Suchanek) Did, did he act like that too?

KEIGHTLEY: No, Cotton no, no, no he is, he did not act that way. He still lives here, in locally.

SUCHANEK: Oh, uh-huh.

KEIGHTLEY: And . . . married a young lady from Mount Sterling, Julie Ritchie and, and he has one son is an attorney, so . . .

SUCHANEK: Now this is talking about the . . . sixty-three, sixty-four season, there was something called the Sugar Bowl tournament. Do you recall that?


SUCHANEK: How often was that played? Was that just one year or . . .

KEIGHTLEY: No, it u . . . it used to be played every year and now if it's - you know what I don't - we played in that one time since Tubby has been here, I don't 59:00recall which year it was . . .

SUCHANEK: Oh really!

KEIGHTLEY: . . . but it used to be one of the real big games every year, we played, when Coach Rupp was here we played Saint Louis there a couple or three years.

SUCHANEK: You lost to Notre Dame in s-s-s-s . . . in sixty-three - no-no, you beat Notre Dame in '63 . . . so I guess that's . . . that draws some pretty good teams.

KEIGHTLEY: Well let's see here now, maybe in, have you got in '62, have you got that one?

SUCHANEK: Huh, I don't have that year.

KEIGHTLEY: I believe I now, you know now I can't pinpoint the year but I believe in 1962 we played in that . . . yeah, we played in the Sugar Bowl and the game was delayed because they hade a heavy snowfall in, in . . . New Orleans, but 60:00the reason I'm picking this game out is, is the fact that we played, we played Duke and the score was tied going in to the last twenty seconds of the game, we had the ball, of course Cotton was on the team, but one of my, one of my very favorite people of all time, is right here at the University now, Terry Mobley, is a guard. Okay, we, you know, we get a time out and of course everybody knows that, that Cotton is going to get the ball, except Terry Mobley (Laughter - Suchanek). Terry made a shot to win the game (Laughter - Keightley).

SUCHANEK: Oh, is that right? (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley)

KEIGHTLEY: That's right! (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley). They won 61:00the game by two.

SUCHANEK: And that wa'n't the plan.

KEIGHTLEY: Yea-a-a-h, no, as I say everybody knew it but Moberly (Laughter Keightley and Suchanek). Well that, that was a, that was a good one.

SUCHANEK: Do you, do you remember any comments after that game?

KEIGHTLEY: No, no, no, no (Still laughing - Suchanek and Keightley) I got, I can imagine they probably might be able to make one up if it had not gone in (Rolling laughter - Suchanek and Keightley)

SUCHANEK: Well of course Larry Conley was on that team . . . in sixty . . . three, sixty-four.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, right, uh-huh.

SUCHANEK: And now he is a, I know he is a commentator for . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah right, yeah.

SUCHANEK: . . . Af . . . Jefferson Pilot of something like that?

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, yeah, JP and ESPN . . .

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. How about . . .

KEIGHTLEY: . . . occasionally he gets, he gets bumped by, you know, Vitale. Of course Larry likes to come back here I don't, this last year or the year before Larry was all set to come back here and Vitale decided he wanted to do it (Laughter 62:00Suchanek and Keightley).

SUCHANEK: What do you remember about Larry Conley as a player?

KEIGHTLEY: Well, what I remember about Larry as a player, of course, started back with his father who used to be an official, an SEC official and I always followed Larry really closely at Ashland, because of his dad, and I knew that his dad was also a high school coach at one time, and . . . Larry played on probably I think, the best high school team I've ever seen at Ashland, and of course Larry was a very intricate part of it, the fact being, it wa'n't that Larry scoring, it was his knowledge of how to play the game because he made everyone else twice as good as they would have been with, with his skills and being able to draw defenders to him and his 63:00uncanny ability to be able to pass.

SUCHANEK: So he was almost like a second coach on the floor.

KEIGHTLEY: Yes, absolutely and, and he was a skinny rascal back then, he was really skinny. And, and he is not too robust today but he was just almost pencil thin, but yes, he was like a, he was like a coach on the floor.

SUCHANEK: Was he a team leader?

KEIGHTLEY: A team leader. And you know what, he still is today. He is a, has, I am really proud of what, what Larry has accomplished.

SUCHANEK: You ever hear of this fellow called, last name of Ishmael? Do you remember if . . .

KEIGHTLEY: Charlie Ishmael?

SUCHANEK: Yea, uh-huh, Ishmael.


SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. What do you remember about him?

KEIGHTLEY: Well Charlie was from Mount Sterling and he was a outstanding football player, but . . . Charlie came in here and, of course Adolph 64:00liked guys play defense also. Now, now old, old Chili, that was his nickname . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . Chili Ishmael. Chili was also a, a very excellent long-range shooter and . . . but, but Chili came in here and was a little bit like a . . . compared to John Crigler with a fifty-eight team, he was the blue-collar worker, he was the nuts and the bolts and Chili was a, was really, really a, a good player.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. How about Deeken?

KEIGHTLEY: Ted Deeken, he played with Cotton and he was from Flaget, at Louisville. Ted probably, next to Cliff Hagan, was the most accurate hook shot shooter we ever had. I'll say the most accurate, the most flamboyant was Johnnie 65:00Cox because he brought the thing up from the floor, he was the old buggy whip (Laughter - Suchanek) and when it went in, you know, I mean people couldn't believe it. But, but Ted and his size was about six-four, six-five, and he could get in the paint, and he, he was a deadly hook shooter and was a, was really, back in those days a leaper, so, yeah, Ted, Ted was an underrated player because he was on the team with Cotton Nash.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm. Speaking of . . . it, it, it seems like back in the sixties, you didn't have very many people who would, who could dunk the ball. Of course I am not even sure that was legal back then.

KEIGHTLEY: No, it wa . . . it wasn't, yeah, that's the reason I, you know, I'm sure about old guys like . . . Chili and Deeken and I, you know, I know Nash could 66:00but no, nobody tried it because, you know, you couldn't do it, and you know I can't recall the exact year that, that . . . leaping became . . .

SUCHANEK: That, that became legal.

KEIGHTLEY: . . . that, that dunking became legal again, I, I really can't, but . . . now, hey, almost everybody does . . .


KEIGHTLEY: . . . and I don't see how some of these kids can get up there to do it.

SUCHANEK: Like Muggsy Bogues, remember Muggsy?

KEIGHTLEY: Ho Muggsy, yeah what five four or something (Laughter - Suchanek and Keightley) yes, yeah.

SUCHANEK: Tommy Kron?

KEIGHTLEY: Tommy Kron, yeah, Tell City, Indiana, you know, that, that's what made that, that team . . . that team so good was the fact you had two, two guards. See, Tommy, as you can tell in that picture up there of the Rupp's runt, see 67:00he is, he-e-e almost is the tallest player on the team, he'd about six-six and Thad was about six-five and a half, but Tommy was actually, played the point on defense and he, he was a tireless defensive stalwart and he, he was a, he was an underrated player on that team, well everybody on that team was underrated, because they, they have what they achieved. You know you had Louie Dampier who was a great, great shooter. Louie, Louie probably is the greatest shooter of all that bunch including Patrick. But, yeah, Tom Kron was a very intricate part of that, that Rupp's runts.

SUCHANEK: Huh, Embry?

KEIGHTLEY: Randy Embry, Owensboro, Kentucky, one of the last of the 68:00two-handed set artist. Saw him one day last week, he is now a scout for what pro- team, I don't know, but little Randy he is still going.


KEIGHTLEY: Yes, he's, he is . . . yeah he, he was . . . I saw him play in the state tournament, I don't, you know, Randy was about m-m-m five-ten maybe, and everybody thought he might be too po . . . small to play college ball but (clears throat) he was, he was probably about the size of Bobby Watson who played with Bill Spivey, and he was also from Owensboro. But, as I say, Randy was the last of the two-handed specialist and you, you couldn't let him draw, because if he did, 69:00she was going to go in.



SUCHANEK: Gibson? He was a forward on that team? Gibson?

KEIGHTLEY: Oh-oh, Mickey, oh Mickey Gibson, yeah way I had, yeah, I had to roll back the calendar here, yes. Mickey was from . . . originally from Carr Creek and he transferred to Hazard, and (clears throat) he was another one of the true leapers. He came in here with, with Conley and that bunch. They called them the cats and jammer kids and he came in with . . . with Conley, and . . . Mickey was a left handed shooter and we were talking about the dunkers and the leapers. He could jump over the back board.



KEIGHTLEY: And he was . . . he was a, a very good player. He finally left here, I believe wound up at Belmont College to play his last year.

SUCHANEK: Oh really? Uh-huh.

KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, he . . . but never, never, I haven't seen Mickey for years and years.

SUCHANEK: Why did he leave, do you know?

KEIGHTLEY: Well he just, you know, you just got players that either for academic reasons or other reasons, you know, just, just can't hack it any longer, and . . .

SUCHANEK: I mean did players back then, did they transfer because they weren't getting enough player - playing time (unintelligible) . . .

KEIGHTLEY: No, they . . .

SUCHANEK: . . . yeah the way they, they like to do today.

KEIGHTLEY: No, no, that, that wa'n't a factor back then like, like it is today, but . . . I . . . he, let's see, he played, I guess Mickey played maybe a year and a half. 71:00I know that, of course we had all those really, really good players back then, we hated to see Mickey go, and he played with Ishmael . . . also.

SUCHANEK: Mm-mm, yeah they were on the same team.



KEIGHTLEY: Yeah, he played with him.

SUCHANEK: Well, why don't we stop for today.

KEIGHTLEY: Whatever you say, Jimmy.

SUCHANEK: And . . .

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