0:00

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: He is very excited about the progress, I think.

HUGHES: Good.

LANE: I hope so. We'll have a great book next July is when we'll celebrate for the big celebration--(Hughes coughs)--and we're going to, to install an interactive exhibit out in the lobby, so--

HUGHES: Oh really?

LANE: --you can come in and people who are from your area and, and touch Gateway, and it will pull up your history.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: It's--

HUGHES: Cool.

LANE: --really going to be very neat.

HUGHES: That's interesting.

LANE: Yeah, I think it's going to be great.

HUGHES: Good.

LANE: Um, but today we are establishing, uh, here with Dr. G. Edward Hughes who is president and CEO--correct me--

HUGHES: Correct.

LANE: --of Gateway Community and Technical College.

HUGHES: Correct.

LANE: Correct. Your web site's good. (Hughes laughs) No, I knew that, I'm just kidding, your web site is good, by the way. I--

HUGHES: It's getting better.

LANE: --I like, uh, the fact that--

HUGHES: It's getting better.

LANE: --when I click in, and I've checked with all the colleges, you know, there is your welcome, you know, you start with the first things first, so that's good.

HUGHES: Good.

LANE: That's very good. I, I enjoy that. But we're establishing a baseline history for the ten years of KCTCS, uh, the first thing I 1:00would like for you to do, because you have a very rich history with the community college system, and KCTCS, is to review your professional career, uh, you know, where you've been, and what led you to, to--

HUGHES: Prior, prior to--

LANE: Gateway.

HUGHES: --Kentucky?

LANE: If you wish, that's fine.

HUGHES: Uh--(clears throat)--well my, my, my education career is I have a bachelor's degree, master's degree in psychology. Uh, went to, uh, uh, I started my teaching career in, uh, in Western Tennessee, uh, teaching human, what then was called human services, and then I taught psychology. Went and got a doctorate in higher education at Southern Illinois University, and then joined, uh, the second year of a brand new community college in Arkansas--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --Northeastern Arkansas, called Mississippi County Community College, where I stayed there for five years. Was a teacher, division chair, and then I became a dean of the college of uh, up in upper state 2:00New York near, uh, Lake Placid, New York--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Saranac Lake, New York is--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --is, uh, one of the coldest places on earth, I'm here to tell you.

LANE: Beautiful but cold.

HUGHES: Beautiful.

LANE: Yes, yes.

HUGHES: Uh, and when I was the dean of academic and student affairs there, and then, in 1985, I came--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to Kentucky.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, and was the president of Hazard Community College. From 1985 until two thousand and tw-, one--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --in December 1st 2001 became president, CEO of the Northern Kentucky Technical College District--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --which then was changed fairly quickly to the Northern Kentucky Community and Technical College District--

LANE: District.

HUGHES: And then, in two thousand--at the end of 2002, we, uh, renamed the college Gateway Community and Technical College, which of course it 3:00is--

LANE: It is today.

HUGHES: --today.

LANE: Because--

HUGHES: So--

LANE: --because there was no community college in Northern Kentucky--

HUGHES: Gateway--

LANE: --early on.

HUGHES: Gateway or Northern Kentucky Technical College was one of three of the fifth of three of the fifteen vocational--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --schools--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that were merged with, uh, thirteen community colleges in '97--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --to create KCTCS.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: We had three of those. There was not a complementary community college, because Northern Kentucky University--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --which was created initially as, as a, uh, a university center, a University of Kentucky Center--

LANE: Um-hm, one of the centers.

HUGHES: --uh, one of the centers in 1968 became a university.

LANE: Ah ha.

HUGHES: It was a community college--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --so it was the community college for Northern Kentucky.

LANE: For the area, um-hm.

HUGHES: Then, in '68, when the community college system was created with UK, one of the deals was that Northern Kentucky would receive a 4:00Northern Kentucky university. So in '68, NKU became a university but maintained the community college role.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: So that was maintained through, really as a part of higher education reform in '97.

LANE: In '97.

HUGHES: And the idea was that eventually, the technical college at Northern Kentucky would become a community and technical college, and the university would relinquish its role as the access community college for Northern Kentucky.

LANE: And pass that to UK, at that time.

HUGHES: Well, it would pass that to KCTCS.

LANE: Oh, I see.

HUGHES: Because this would have been--

LANE: It's later--

HUGHES: --this would have been--

LANE: --later.

HUGHES: --part of the higher education reform.

LANE: The reform. That's an interesting, uh--

HUGHES: So, if you talk--

LANE: --series of events.

HUGHES: --to people in Northern Kentucky, there are some people who would say, you know, I've, I, I, I, I'm a community college graduate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and you say, "Well, when did you graduate?"

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And they say, "1975." What they're thinking is that NKU was the 5:00community college--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --did offer the associate degrees.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: They still offer two associate degrees in technical program.

LANE: They do.

HUGHES: Radiography and, there's another one.

LANE: I, I don't think--

HUGHES: It's a technical--

LANE: --I've heard that.

HUGHES: --program.

LANE: Right. So those, those co-exist well today.

HUGHES: Yeah, and, and, and, it's doing well, so why change it. I, I would say that the, uh, and I'm probably into other issues--

LANE: That's fine.

HUGHES: --but just to tell you, Northern Kentucky University had a new president in 1997--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --Jim Votruba.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, one of the things that happened shortly after Jim got there is, uh, a regional--what was called a regional planning--and Jim out of that, came the, uh, real strong belief, led by Jim Votruba that Northern Kentucky University really needed to become a regional urban 6:00university--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --with special emphasis on civic engagement--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, what now has become regional stewardship, uh, and, in order for that to occur, the development of a freestanding community and technical college needed to occur. So, you can go back in some of the documents in the, uh, mid-nineties, uh, which was, what was called Forward Quest. The Forward Quest, uh, planning document indicates that Northern Kentucky should have, and should be developing a, uh--

LANE: Community.

HUGHES: --community college. And so, it took a little, you know, it was, all the stars lined up.

LANE: Yes, they did, didn't they?

HUGHES: They had that in Northern Kentucky, and then we had, uh, the, the, uh, higher education reform--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --which was sponsored by a legislator, the lead sponsor was, was--

LANE: --Jim Callahan--

HUGHES: --was Jim Callahan--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --from Northern Kentucky.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: Uh--

LANE: What do you hear about him--

7:00

HUGHES: Well, Jim's all--

LANE: --these days?

HUGHES: --Jim's--

LANE: I know, he's been very ill.

HUGHES: Well, his Parkinson's is getting worse.

LANE: Oh, I'm sorry.

HUGHES: Uh, uh, Jim is a member of our foundation.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Uh, Jim received, in, uh, two-thousand and--(sighs)--two or three, I think it was 2003, he received the first honorary doctorate--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --uh, from our institution--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and I believe it was the first one offered by the System.

LANE: Yeah, I think you're right, I believe I've--

HUGHES: Well we--

LANE: --heard that.

HUGHES: --we, we tried pretty hard--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --to make sure that quote the, the, if you will, if Paul Patton was the father--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --of the community college, KCTCS, Jim was the midwife.

LANE: Yeah, he sure was.

HUGHES: And, uh--

LANE: I've heard--

HUGHES: --so we--

LANE: --I've listened to extensive interviews--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --that he gave in 2002.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: And he's very passionate about this, and--

HUGHES: Yes he is.

LANE: --and, and, uh, saw that it got done.

HUGHES: Yeah, yeah.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: That's--

HUGHES: So, that's kind of a--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --long way around--

LANE: No, no, that's good.

HUGHES: --to get sort of where we are positioned, and--

LANE: 'Cause you're--

HUGHES: --and--

LANE: --yours is a unique history.

HUGHES: It is, and where my relationship was, uh, from '85 until two- 8:00thousand--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --one, at the community college in Hazard--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --during it's, probably biggest growth that it's ever had--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --uh, from one school--one, one, building to four campuses, from six hundred students to four thousand, so, uh, with, with multiple foundations and all that kind of thing. And so, I was actually hired by Charles Wethington--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --in '85 to lead that institution.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: So I pro-, I probably, I believe this is correct, that currently, as we sit here today, I've pr-, I have the most senior tenured public college president by tenure in that position, in Kentucky.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I think I am a half--

LANE: --I think you are--

HUGHES: --year ahead of Pat Lake.

LANE: Is that right?

HUGHES: Uh, so I've been around on both sides, saw it with the university, was in Hazard when we merged the community college and the technical college there--

9:00

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --Dr. McCall came down and named me the--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I guess the president of both--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --or the director of both.

LANE: I re-, that's in the record.

HUGHES: That was one of the early ones.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, the Hazard, uh, Hazard was the site of one of the earliest, uh, KCTCS board meetings that was very significant--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --uh, in the development of, uh, of really the big notion that we would merge these institutions, but we never called them mergers.

LANE: Oh no.

HUGHES: We would cons-, --

LANE: That word was not used, was it?

HUGHES: --the--

LANE: That's an interesting point.

HUGHES: --uh, the, the use and the, the, uh, I will tell you that, uh, the, uh, resolution of that board that day, to, uh, ask the president, I'm close to this, ask the president to, or authorize the president to engage in discussions about consolidation--

LANE: --consolidation--

HUGHES: --occurred in Hazard--

10:00

LANE: In Hazard.

HUGHES: --in a boardroom--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --one of our boardrooms out--at a recess--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --when Dr. McCall and--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --several people came together and said, "We're headed down this road, what can we do to solidify this right now." It was hot, we got to get it done, and they literally crafted that resolution, which you probably have--

LANE: Right there.

HUGHES: --uh, about consolidation and passed it that afternoon. Uh, so it's kind of ir-, ironic that, you know, I was there for a long time, and then, and then had the opportunity to go to Gateway, to s-, to, to really kind of start that.

LANE: That consolidation.

HUGHES: Yeah, yeah.

LANE: And those were community-initiated, even though the board approved--

HUGHES: That's correct.

LANE: --approved the--

HUGHES: That whole--

LANE: --process.

HUGHES: --that whole process--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --got--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --got solidified right then.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And, and the board passed that resolution--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and then [clicking sound] uh, like we do on a lot of things, when you're flying by the seat of your pants--(Lane laughs)--then, then after the board was over, we said, "Oops, now what do we do?"

LANE: Now what? Yeah.

HUGHES: So then we put that process of community-led forums and, and--

11:00

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --and that sort of thi-,--

LANE: The four steps.

HUGHES: Yeah, the four steps.

LANE: --the four steps--but that happened right there.

HUGHES: It happened right down--

LANE: You watched it.

HUGHES: --I remember it as clear as a bell.

LANE: One of those moments in your memory--

HUGHES: Oh yeah.

LANE: --the historical moments, yeah, very important, uh, to the tone with, in the--within the communities. Had it been mandated, there would have been much different tone--

HUGHES: Oh much, oh sure.

LANE: --much, much different tone.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: But, you know, that keeps the community and, and the community college and technical system, just put it simply.

HUGHES: Well, it was the only way we could probably have pulled it off, uh, I mean it did, it did provide input that was important for both the colleges, but it also gave the System which was a very fragile system--

LANE: Yes, it was.

HUGHES: --we were extremely fragile--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --there were still, there were still a lot of talk about going back into the next General Assembly and undoing this.

LANE: Yeah. Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, and so if there was any opportunity for that idea to ferment 12:00in a community not to, to mandate it, that would have probably been the death nail of the System.

LANE: It probably would have been.

HUGHES: But this was, we, we were able to, uh, give ourselves some cover--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --if you will--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and a great deal of support from the communities.

LANE: From your communities. Let's go back a little bit. You're, you're, uh, the president at Hazard, and when did you first hear about the separation of the community colleges from UK? It had been band-, bandied about for years. But what was, what stands in your memory there?

HUGHES: When did I first hear about it?

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: When I first hear about it? Probably, I guess I heard about it at about the same time most everybody did, the spring of ninety, probably the spring of '96.

13:00

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Uh, after Paul was in office.

LANE: Um-hm. Did you hear his inaugural address?

HUGHES: I heard it, but I, I wasn't there there--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --for--

LANE: Gotcha.

HUGHES: --uh, I've known Paul Patton for a very long time.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: We worked together--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --on Leadership--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --East Kentucky, uh, helped start that, and was a big supporter of, uh, of Paul's, knew him personally, and, uh, worked behind the scenes--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --politically.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, you can't do political--I don't think you can successfully as a president.

LANE: Yeah, it's tough.

HUGHES: Uh, but I think it's probably in the sp-, probably around then. He--

LANE: Did you attend the meeting--I'm sorry to interrupt you.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: Did you attend the meeting that I just learned about from, I believe, Pat Lake, uh, when Paul Patton was lieutenant governor, there was a meeting convened of the community college presidents at the Lieutenant Governor's Mansion. That's the first I had heard of that, 14:00uh--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --I wondered if you recall--

HUGHES: Yeah, but I--

LANE: --that.

HUGHES: --I don't remember the impression, uh, you know, Paul was a work-force, was--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --in charge of Workforce Development.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: Uh--(sighs)--and the reason that doesn't stand out, I remember we had the meeting, but the reason it doesn't stand out is really the first time I heard him really talk about--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --separation.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: But I'd known Paul, we'd worked together, so I knew his concern and interest was about work-force, was about--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --what are you guys doing with the technical--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --colleges and that sort of thing.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: Uh, he was very pro-community colleges.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, and I'm sure that throughout our, our many discussions, we talked about possible solutions--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --to that.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: So, I don't--that to me isn't a--

LANE: --wasn't a--

HUGHES: --it wasn't the seminal--

LANE: --watershed meeting--

HUGHES: --moment.

LANE: Okay. Go ahead.

HUGHES: Uh, I guess that seminal was some time in that, when I heard him 15:00say, uh, that he would stake his, his governorship on higher education--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --reform.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: And that he was very concerned about, uh, the universities, you know, he was talking about the universities and research, and all of that.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And then he kind of slips in, uh, and this whole issue of work- force development we need to get straightened out, you know, that kind of discussion and--

LANE: You knew him well enough to know--

HUGHES: --and I knew him well enough to know--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that that was the issue--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --not the university research, because--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --he was, he came from, he came from the grassroots.

LANE: Um-hm, yes.

HUGHES: Not that he doesn't understand research, but he saw it face-to- face as a county judge, and--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and certainly face-to-face with the Economic Development Cabinet--

LANE: Oh yeah.

HUGHES: --which he was asked to run by, by, by Brereton--

LANE: Exactly.

HUGHES: --and did a fine job as--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --as, as I remember.

LANE: I felt--

HUGHES: Uh--

LANE: --I was thinking about that this week, with--

16:00

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --the elections, that that--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --was a, that was a positive relationship, I think, between governor and lieutenant governor, a useful--

HUGHES: Oh yeah.

LANE: --position for our lieutenant governor.

HUGHES: Yeah, and, and, you know, and someone once said to me that being the governor in the state of Kentucky is, uh, like, like, like being the head of a hundred and twenty counties.

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: And you have a hundred and twenty counties hitting you. Well, he understood that.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: And they were hitting him from, what are you going to do about jobs--

LANE: That's it.

HUGHES: --uh, and so I, I, I, got an inkling like, uh oh, he's gonna-- (Lane laughs)--do something.

LANE: This is gonna happen--

HUGHES: What's he gonna do? And then--

LANE: --it's gonna happen.

HUGHES: --I knew him well enough that he would bring together whatever he'd want to call it, a blue ribbon committee--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and then, of course, he did.

LANE: Yes he did.

HUGHES: And, uh, you could kind of see pretty quickly where that was headed.

LANE: Yeah, the Commission on Higher Education--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --Institutional Efficiency and Cooperation.

HUGHES: Oh yeah, I mean it--

LANE: All right, all right. And then he engaged some national consultants.

17:00

HUGHES: Oh yeah. (clears throat)

LANE: And, uh, so you, you were observing and--

HUGHES: Oh yeah.

LANE: --and knowing probably what he was thinking--

HUGHES: Yeah, I--

LANE: --at this time.

HUGHES: --at that point, once he had the commission, it--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --when you looked at efficiency, cooper-, cooperation, that kind--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that just, that was, he's going to do something with the community colleges, the vocational schools, adult ed, he is going to do something.

LANE: With it all. How were you--how did that strike you? Uh, were you confident that he, he would do it well?

HUGHES: I, well--

LANE: Or what, was there--

HUGHES: I, I--

LANE: --anxiety and fear?

HUGHES: No, no, I, I don't know that I--I thought he would bring the vocational schools under the University of Kentucky.

LANE: Ah ha. Where at, where the community colleges were already.

HUGHES: Yeah I thou-, I always knew that Paul felt very good about the community colleges, uh, I mean I knew that. Uh, he was concerned about the vocational system.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And, and, in many times during the fight, he would say that to us, but he said that to me and others in Eastern Kentucky early on, uh, 18:00and probably in hindsight you should have seen it, we should have seen it coming.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, but I really thought the vocational schools would come under the University of Kentucky, I thought that's what he was gonna do.

LANE: Okay, okay.

HUGHES: And, and, because he was a UK graduate--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --you know, the whole nine yards.

LANE: Would, would he?

HUGHES: That--

LANE: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --and I figured that's what was gonna happen, that we were probably going to merge these institutions somehow, and, and, really, I thought where I was in Hazard, it would be very positive--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --because while we had a good relationship with the technical college or the technical school, I, we didn't do that much together.

LANE: Together. How close were you, how, what proximity there?

HUGHES: Two miles--

LANE: Two miles.

HUGHES: --three miles as the crow flies--

LANE: Gotcha.

HUGHES: --five miles as the--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to drive.

LANE: Um-hm, so you were, you were--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --right there together. Uh, did you--were your programs overlapping, or--

19:00

HUGHES: No.

LANE: --did you all each do your own thing?

HUGHES: Did--we each did our own thing.

LANE: Yeah, yeah. What was the mood on your campus, at Hazard--(Hughes laughs)--during that lobbying effort--(Hughes coughs)--of '95, '96? Now he's, he is into it now, he's made this inaugural speech, he has--

HUGHES: He--

LANE: --he has commissioned the taskforce, they've studied, and now he's decided what he's probably going to do. In April of '97, Ed Ford called them Patton's, quote, worse than hell, visits to community colleges.

HUGHES: I was right there.

LANE: How did it go, how did it go in Hazard?

HUGHES: Well, in Hazard, I think we were one of the first--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, we weren't the first; we were one of the first.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, we talked about, I remember, we, uh, we knew he was going to come--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, we certainly had a message for him.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: The community was very much supportive of the community college staying with the University of Kentucky--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, there was a sense that, uh, we, we understood that we'd be 20:00pulled away--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --probably.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, there was a great deal of community, uh, support, uh, to keep us with the university, uh, virtually all cost, even to the point of one of our marketing, uh, our, one of our marketing, uh, tools at, at Hazard was, "We're the University of Kentucky in Your Backyard."

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: And I still have a--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I still have a license plate cover that says that--(Lane laughs)--okay?

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: So, we marketed--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --ourselves as "The University of Kentucky--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --In Your Backyard."

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: We had advertisements would end, "We're the University of Kentucky in Your Backyard." Uh, so we had marketed ourselves--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --for a long time as the university.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, we had a very strong relationship with the medical center because we had the rural, the Center for Rural Health--

LANE: There.

HUGHES: --there.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: So we had lots of connections in the community, and the faculty enjoyed being able to say they're part of the university. So, I'd say 21:00the mood was, was, no you're not going to take us, and hell no, you're not going to take us--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and we're going to do everything we can--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to convince you.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, I do remember the day, uh, quite well, I remember him coming in, uh, I had told the faculty and staff and the assemble people before he came--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that it was my, uh, request that we be civil--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that, uh, he is the governor of the state and we want to hear what he says, and he will, uh, be answering our questions, and I, uh, really, as president, I was asking people to be very civil--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and respectful.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, during the meeting, uh, somebody did get a little out of control and I do remember standing up, the Governor was talking and, and I remember simply standing up--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, to kind of let--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --somebody know--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you are out of line.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And things calmed down, people were respectful, but they were 22:00very forceful--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --he was very forceful.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: Uh, we were in a very small auditorium, so it was very close quarters--(Lane laughs)--it was packed. (Lane laughs) Uh, and, uh, I remember going home saying, "I want to tell you, he is the gutsiest guy I've ever seen--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to walk into the lions--

LANE: --in the middle of it--

HUGHES: --literally to walk into the lions' den."

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, I remember people putting their arm around him and saying, "Governor," walking out with somebody who I won't say, but walked out, put his arm around him, and walking the Governor to the car, and he said, "Governor, you can do a lot of things, but try to take this community college away from the University of Kentucky, they're gonna, it's, it's gonna cause you all kinds of problems."

LANE: Get you.

HUGHES: It's gonna get you kind of thing; I mean that was the message.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, his reaction was, "I, I really believe this is what we need to do, and you elected me to move forward,"--

LANE: Wow.

HUGHES: --and I'm going, wow, that's--

23:00

LANE: Wow.

HUGHES: --pretty impressive.

LANE: Do you think he expected--(Hughes coughs)--this kind--

HUGHES: He knew--

LANE: --of response?

HUGHES: --he knew exactly what he was getting to.

LANE: He knew what he was getting to and he was ready for the fight.

HUGHES: And I think he started in Eastern Kentucky, which was his power base.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: And that's why I think we were--

LANE: Well it's--

HUGHES: --one of the first.

LANE: --that's interesting, yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, uh, and, and, you know, throughout that whole very difficult session--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --we had mo-, multiple meetings with the Governor, I remember several breakfast meetings with--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --with Dr. Carr--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --uh, and the other presidents--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and just Paul Patton--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and, uh, uh, Skipper Martin, that was it, that's all who was in the meet-, meeting.

LANE: Hmm. Hmm.

HUGHES: And he would say, you know, "When I get this done, when this is done, Ben Carr is still gonna be your chancellor."

LANE: Really.

HUGHES: "You're still gonna be," you know, and--

LANE: He was saying it's going s-, --

HUGHES: It's--

LANE: --you're--

HUGHES: --he said--

LANE: --still gonna be okay.

HUGHES: --he would say, and I remember one time, he said, "I need,"--be careful with this, please--"I need you all to help raise up vocational technical--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --education in this state."

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: I mean he said that.

24:00

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: And so he was saying to us, I know what you guys are, this isn't a, uh, a reduction of your status, we're going to elevate--

LANE: Um-hm, yeah.

HUGHES: --the status of these vocational schools, and blend them together, uh, of course, and we were, we were saying that's not going to happen, the best way to have that happen is leave us with the university and move them in.

LANE: Bring them in.

HUGHES: And his point--

LANE: Why do you have to take us apart?

HUGHES: --why do we have to take us apart?

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Why do you have to be--and his reason was, because I don't think it will work as well. You will always be a stepchild--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --of the university.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Ten years later, really it wasn't ten years, two years later, three years later, it was pretty apparent he was right.

LANE: Hmm. Because the new System was successful, even then, you think.

HUGHES: I think we all s-, --(clears throat)--

LANE: It was growing.

HUGHES: --I think we all saw the potential--

LANE: I see.

HUGHES: --far greater than--

LANE: What you were.

HUGHES: --what we were.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I think we, uh, Margaret, I think we saw that we had always 25:00wanted more autonomy--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and more independence--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and more ability--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to respond, uh, to local needs, and we were beginning to see that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --could happen.

LANE: Right. So, at what point did you, you realize, yeah, this is gon-, it is gonna happen?

HUGHES: At what point?

LANE: At what point--

HUGHES: Oh--

LANE: --and in all of the--

HUGHES: Oh--

LANE: --the fight, shall we call it--

HUGHES: (clears throat) Uh--

LANE: --and it was, it really was.

HUGHES: --no, I, I think I knew it was gonna happen when, when, when the Governor showed up on campus.

LANE: Really.

HUGHES: And mean that's--

LANE: If he is going to do that--

HUGHES: --if he's gonna do that--

LANE: --he's gonna make this happen--

HUGHES: --and he had already announced he's going to--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --every community.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: You're not going to do that--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --I knew him well enough that he's not going to do that, if he wasn't moving forward.

LANE: Real serious about it.

HUGHES: Yeah. I thought that we would be--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --I thought that we had enough power in the university and the-- in, really in the communities, not, I shouldn't say--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --in the university--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --in the communities--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --uh--

LANE: Because those--

HUGHES: --with--

LANE: --communities enjoyed that affiliation--

HUGHES: --with, well--

LANE: --with UK.

HUGHES: --and we, with the ag, I thought we would get ag--

26:00

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: --on our side, the medical center's on our side--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: -- -----------(??) on our side, because--pharmacy, because in fact, we hadn't been enlisted throughout history to, to pull people together when the--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --when they threatened to--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --close of the medical--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --schools, or the dental schools--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --and I really felt like that would happen, and I think one of the surprising things, uh, to us, in my, me in retrospect, uh, thinking about it, probably the medical, probably those other colleges at the university, uh, didn't put up as much of a fight--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --uh, as, as we thought they might.

LANE: They might.

HUGHES: Uh, because in the end, while we did, as you probably know, while we did prevail in the senate for one night--

LANE: (laughs) Yes.

HUGHES: --and our currently ----------(??) our--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --lieutenant governor--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --elect was Paul Patton's front guy running all the behind 27:00stuff. Jack Conway was--

LANE: Yeah, Jack was--

HUGHES: --running it.

LANE: --right in the middle of it.

HUGHES: He's in the middle of it.

LANE: He was.

HUGHES: Uh--

LANE: --wrote a lot of the--

HUGHES: --and we beat him one, we beat him in the house--uh, senate--uh, we knew we were going to lose--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --the fight, but--

LANE: Did you?

HUGHES: Oh I think, I think the handwriting was on the wall.

LANE: You felt like you had to fight though.

HUGHES: We had no choice to, to fight.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: We were--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --part of the University of Kentucky.

LANE: Yeah, and they, not an inconsequential fact is that they had just won the NCAA basketball tournament in March of '96.

HUGHES: I hadn't--

LANE: I mean--

HUGHES: --I had forgotten that.

LANE: --remember that? That, that was just part of those, those stars and bars--

HUGHES: Well--

LANE: --if you will, you know--

HUGHES: --yeah, yeah, the other thing is, I mean--

LANE: --that's pride.

HUGHES: --you know, uh, the--

LANE: That's Kentucky pride.

HUGHES: --the per-, the person who hired us was a--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --was, who had--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --hired us all--

LANE: --Yeah.

HUGHES: --virtually all of us--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, was now the president of the university--

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: --and had done a marvelous job as president of the university--

LANE: --and had come from the community colleges himself.

HUGHES: --and, you know, I think we all felt that was not going to be to our advantage, but--

LANE: Hmm, hmm.

28:00

HUGHES: --history has shown that it was--

LANE: Isn't that interesting.

HUGHES: --to our advantage and to the university's.

LANE: Well, I don't, I--

HUGHES: It's why I say that Paul Patton is arguably the best governor--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --one of two of the best governors we had in the last century.

LANE: Did you, uh, at, were you able to attend the Trusteeship Conference that CPE held in the last--

HUGHES: Not the last one.

LANE: --the one they usually have--

HUGHES: No. I didn't go to the last one.

LANE: --the past one. Uh, one of the speakers said that, it was David Williams.

HUGHES: Yeah, well, arguably it is, I mean--

LANE: In his--

HUGHES: --Bert Combs and he--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --are the two--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --that absolutely, uh, I cannot, and, and, you know, I remember very well, uh, Paul's, uh, second inaugural--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --where we were, higher education folks were there, and--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --he celebrated, we were at the ball and all, I, I still think, and I told Paul, I still think that was the best speech he ever gave in his life.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: It was a marvelous speech, it was--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --it was, uh, it was uplifting, and visionary, and we had been around for a year or two--(laughs)--uh, you know, and, and you could 29:00begin to see some real changes, and it was a marvelous speech and, and--

LANE: Momentum was with you.

HUGHES: --for the, for that, for that time--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --uh--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --resources were good--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --uh, yeah it was a pretty exciting time--

LANE: Yeah, I, interestingly enough, I interviewed Lois Combs Weinberg, Bert Combs' daughter--

HUGHES: -----------(??).

LANE: --last week and, and of course, in the UK Board of Trustee minutes, there's the letter from Lois to, to the board, during all this time saying, I think maybe, don't do this out of respect for my father, because he and I always disagreed on this subject. And she told me that again. But I always felt they might be better off on their own.

HUGHES: And, and, and yet, Bert had he, you know, had, had he been alive, would have said, the reason I put them under the university, I, I mean I've heard him say this--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --the reason they put them under the university, was for the protection--

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: --of the university--of, of the community colleges.

LANE: Of the community colleges.

HUGHES: And he was right.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: We now, you know, thirty years later, needed to get out from 30:00under the university--

LANE: Right, but--

HUGHES: --so that we -----------(??)--

LANE: --for that time--

HUGHES: --for, there's no question that Hazard probably would have been picked off by Eastern and, or Morehead--

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --uh, I mean, I mean they were very powerful presidents of these universities.

LANE: Um-hm, and at the time, and the '97 reform, uh, Edward Breathitt was chairman of the UK Board of Trustees, and he always said, "Bert Combs established that and then, it was up to my administration to help implement those things."

HUGHES: That's right.

LANE: So he had a s-,--

HUGHES: He had a stake.

LANE: --a great deal of pride--

HUGHES: Oh, of course.

LANE: --and a stake there so, uh, you know, when you look at all the factors it, the whole situation is fascinating, and had it not been, as you say, and many others say, for Paul Patton's resolve and stubbornness, and vision, it may not have happened, and, and there were other, many other factors as well, but that, that seems to be the major one.

HUGHES: Oh it was, it absolutely was.

LANE: Um, Pat Lake mentioned a 1997 Sunday morning meeting--(Hughes 31:00laughs)--convened to hammer out some key points for House Bill 1, do you recall that one as well?

HUGHES: Oh, I remember that well.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: It was a Satur-, or a Sunday, it was all day--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --yeah, I remember it well. Uh, the presidents met by themselves--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, over at--what was the French Quarters Suites, it still may be--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --the French Quarter Suites.

LANE: I think so.

HUGHES: Uh, we really did meet by ourselves, and we determined at that time, that, in all likelihood, this was gonna happen.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: The bill had already been crafted--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --the bill had actually already been filed; they'd been working on it. There were components of House Bill 1, uh, and I would encourage you, if you have not, to go get the original bill--

LANE: The original bill.

HUGHES: --the original filed bill.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Because the original filed bill is s-, vastly different--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --than the one that was passed, and it's vastly different in several key components that, uh, and it, and I, and I may be even 32:00before the original bill, it was the draft bill, but I'm not sure which one of them. Uh, there were components of the original bill that were just unacceptable to the presidents.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, for instance, the make-up of the boards of directors--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --of each of these colleges--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --at, at one draft was going to be, uh, uh, elected or I mean appointed by the county judge, county judges.

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: Uh, we said to them, "You want to get politics into, or--

LANE: --out of it--

HUGHES: --out of it."

LANE: Oh, truly, truly.

HUGHES: Um, one of the, uh, one of the, uh, issues was the, uh, board, the original boards were going to be free standing fiduciary boards, uh, again we said, "You're going to get politics into--

LANE: --in or out--

HUGHES: --or out of it."

LANE: What's your point here?

HUGHES: You know, if you're going to have a sy-, system, uh, we needed 33:00certain things--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and so I, we listed a series of priorities--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, that we eventually were invited into the leadership, uh, offices, uh, and this happen to have been in the house side.

LANE: House.

HUGHES: And we sat with Jody and--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --Jim, and--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, probably five or six others, and the presidents, and we provided them a list of, of things that we thought were important to either remove, or include--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --uh, there was some discussion and consternation that, uh, when asked, uh, what were our most important--

LANE: Oh--

HUGHES: --I, I respon-,--

LANE: --it's hard, hard to--

HUGHES: --I responded with four or five, and several of my colleagues said--(Lane laughs)--"But I thought we weren't going to do that," and I said, "Well, what we said was, we'd have a list."

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And these were the most important things.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: So if we couldn't get them all, what were the things? We were in negotiations.

LANE: We sure were.

34:00

HUGHES: Uh, I think to, to, uh, well you haven't asked, and I think it was, uh, I think it was interesting that throughout the latter stages of the process, the presidents really coalesced and became a group--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --that were negotiating directly with the General Assembly.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: We were testifying before committees. I remember Pat, myself, uh, Richard Green, I believe, from, uh, Jefferson, and maybe one other, it might have been Debbie, uh, from, uh Prestonsburg, Debbie Floyd, we actually, I can remember testifying before the House Education Committee, the Senate Education Committee, uh, I remember David Karem saying several times, "Be careful what you wish for."

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: He's a senator.

LANE: Now was--

HUGHES: So he--

LANE: --your chancellor with you?

HUGHES: No.

LANE: Simply the presidents.

HUGHES: It was the senate--

LANE: All right.

HUGHES: --and it was the presidents.

LANE: All right.

HUGHES: Now, the chancellor might have been in the room--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --but we took the front and center--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and, uh, I have to say that, in retrospect, that probably one 35:00of the things that began to pull the presidents together--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --as a group, uh, of leaders, apart from the chancellor and the university president.

LANE: Exactly.

HUGHES: We became spokesmen for the community colleges, not the university, uh, and--

LANE: Because your governance before had been Council on Higher Education--

HUGHES: And UK Board of Trustees.

LANE: --UK Board of Trustees, the community colleges, so would you characterize your relationship with the other presidents, w-, was it competitive?

HUGHES: No.

LANE: No.

HUGHES: No, no, we never were really competitive.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Uh, the, the, the thing about, uh, the System under Charles Wethington is, uh, you knew who the boss was--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and you knew he was very consistent--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --but we really did share a lot of information.

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: It wasn't competitive. Uh, that was the good thing about, I think the System--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --and it was one of the things that we wanted to maintain.

LANE: Um-hm.

36:00

HUGHES: If we're really going to be a system, don't set up individual colleges, or I would have to compete with Southeast--

LANE: Of course.

HUGHES: --and Prestonsburg.

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: Because our areas overlapped.

LANE: Exactly.

HUGHES: Uh, and to their credit, they removed some of those things, uh, and the, and the four statutory, uh, actions--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --are ones frankly that we agreed to.

LANE: Um-hm. I have that list, but and we--

HUGHES: We actually agreed to those--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --I remember.

LANE: Yeah. So, so your, the house, it, it, well let's, let's skip to--

HUGHES: Oh.

LANE: --the time on that, the bill is signed.

HUGHES: Oh God.

LANE: Well, the night before the final bill was approved.

HUGHES: Well, we win, we win in the senate--(Lane laughs)--we w-, we get, we get, we get Senator Blevins to vote--(Lane laughs)--the way we've been asking him to vote--

LANE: That was a story in itself.

HUGHES: --yeah, you all--

LANE: --wasn't it.

HUGHES: --you've heard that story, I'm sure from Pat.

LANE: Uh, I have.

HUGHES: Yeah, I can still see it, I can still see them working on Sonny (??), and Sonny working on, on Blevins, and he goes back in there, 37:00and he, and he, and he votes, and, uh, boy we were elated, and they adjourned and I went to the--(Lane laughs)--I went to the hotel and, I guess I went to the Hyatt, I stayed at the Hyatt that night, had a friend who was the front desk, uh, guy, and he said, "Boy you're getting home late." "Yeah, we had a great night." I remember the guy sent me a, uh, one of these little splits of champagne up to my off-, my--

LANE: Oh my gosh.

HUGHES: --my room, he said, "Congratulations."

LANE: Congratulations.

HUGHES: And woke up the next morning, get there, and found out that--

LANE: It has--

HUGHES: --we had a compromise.

LANE: --it has been compromised.

HUGHES: And it was like, wow.

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: I remember Dr. Wethington meeting with those--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --of us who were there, in an ante-room off to the side of--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, uh, second and third floor, and saying, I mean he looked, he looked like he had been up all night, which he had--

LANE: He probably had, yeah.

HUGHES: --and, uh, said that he had done the best he could, and--

LANE: Wow. Wow.

HUGHES: --we were all shell-shocked--

38:00

LANE: I'm sure you were.

HUGHES: --I remember going to Hazard, and I saw of my board chair, we lived on the same street, and I saw my board chair that night, and, uh, of course we hung around until all the stuff was done.

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: And--

LANE: Just to be sure.

HUGHES: --we--just to be sure it wasn't going to be changed again, and, uh, I remember Bill Engle saying, "Are you okay?" I said, "I am more tired than I have ever been in my life." We had been at it for three or four weeks straight.

LANE: Sure you had.

HUGHES: Uh, but I, I will tell you that they signed the bill--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, I told Patton that, uh, well I guess it was the day after he signed it, I told him that, uh, this had been a political issue, and that, uh, we would make it work. I was, I'll be right there to make it work.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Uh, and I said to him, uh, "This is like being traded from the Kansas City--(Lane laughs)--Athletics to the New York Giants."

LANE: Huh.

HUGHES: If you understand baseball in old days--

39:00

LANE: A little bit.

HUGHES: --the Kansas City Athletics used to be--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --a major league team that was a farm system for the, for the, and, and I meant that, and I, you know, it was political, and he understood and he said to me, "This was a political fight, it's over, we need to move on."

LANE: Move on.

HUGHES: And to his credit--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that's what he did.

LANE: Yeah, he did. He set--

HUGHES: Uh, he could--

LANE: --about to assist--

HUGHES: --he--

LANE: --in making it work.

HUGHES: --he could have been very vindictive, uh, I mean I--Pat Lake, Bruce Ayers, myself, Roland Watson were absolutely out front against him on this, we were ab-, we were frie-, I was a friend of his--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I was absolutely opposed to that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I made those strong statements publicly, I testified against it, the whole nine yards, and to his credit, he did say and he do--and he did what he--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --he said.

LANE: Yeah, he did.

HUGHES: "We need to make this work now and I need you, and Pat, and 40:00others who are on the ground to make it work," and we said, "We will make it work for you," and we did. I think the ten, ten years have proven--

LANE: I think so.

HUGHES: --that we've--

LANE: You're still here.

HUGHES: --we've worked hard to--

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --to make that work.

LANE: All right, so, during that, there was a year and a half, and I am calling that the transition time, the early days--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --before Mike McCall came on board as president--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --there was a lot of work done, and--

HUGHES: Oh yeah.

LANE: --you had your, some interim presidents, Jim Ramsey, and Nelson Grote, and Jeff Hockaday--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --what wa-, what, what was happening with, with Hazard, uh--

HUGHES: (sighs) Well--

LANE: --at that time?

HUGHES: --well, we, you know, we were trying to, we were trying to figure out what we were going to be doing--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --with the vocational schools.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: Uh, and in Hazard, we actually set up a, uh, joint committee of the board chair, and vice chair of the community college, in a similar positions of the advisory committee there.

LANE: Right, right.

HUGHES: We began meeting, uh, to f-, with, uh, Connie Johnson (??) who was the vocational director and myself.

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

41:00

HUGHES: And we began meeting to see where we could begin to collaborate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --cooperate.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, it was driven by the community, uh, the leadership, it was very visible, uh, we kept meeting, and we met a few times with our, our faculties, uh, I remember, we, uh, we actually took our entire faculty and staff to the vocational school. That was the first thing we did--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --we took everybody--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --and we learned about the vocational school--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --as opposed to them coming to us. It was very, it was very strategically and symbolic that we went to them.

LANE: To them.

HUGHES: Okay.

LANE: Had you called her before? Had you called Connie Johnson?

HUGHES: He was a he, Connie--

LANE: Oh I'm sorry.

HUGHES: Oh yeah, yeah.

LANE: Had you called Connie--

HUGHES: --we called--

LANE: --when you went home and--

HUGHES: Well, it, this came, this came out of our meetings--

LANE: --the bill was signed?

HUGHES: --you know, this cam-, uh, did I call Johnnie (??)?

LANE: I'm just thinking.

HUGHES: Probably not.

LANE: When, when you went home and you, everything had changed--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --and you knew what was going to happen, you didn't, you just kind 42:00of--you knew somebody would contact him.

HUGHES: Yeah, and then what, what we did was our board chair, and vice chair, and their board chair, vice chair, we, we eventually had a, we had, had a meeting at the Chinese restaurant--(Lane laughs)--uh, uh, and then from that we had, we began to involve more faculty, more student affairs, and decided what would be good for us to go visit them, and then to go, us to visit--for them to--

LANE: --come visit--

HUGHES: --come visit us, because many of them had been coming to our-- they were our students, frankly.

LANE: Ah ha.

HUGHES: Many of the faculty were students; we did have a bridge program with their--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --LPN program.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: That was really the only--

LANE: The only collaboration.

HUGHES: --collaboration we really had, uh, so from those early days, we began working more closely, uh, tried to do some, some planning that might, uh, involve the transfer of students--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --through that first year and a half, uh--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --it's interesting, Connie and I came to the System meetings, but we didn't come together.

43:00

LANE: You didn't.

HUGHES: No, and I don't know--

LANE: In those first meetings--

HUGHES: --and, and looking--

LANE: --I understand--

HUGHES: --at why--

LANE: --everybody sat on different sides of the room.

HUGHES: Oh yeah, everybody sat--one sat there, uh--

LANE: Um-hm. (laughs)

HUGHES: --in the meantime, I--

LANE: I hear that from everyone.

HUGHES: --I had been the convener of the community college presidents.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Okay, that was a--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --was sort of an unofficial, official position.

LANE: You were the convener.

HUGHES: I was the most senior, so I was going to be the convener, and I had been the convener--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Ironically, uh, Earl's--Earl, uh, Wittrock was the convener for the fifteen technical colleges.

LANE: Really.

HUGHES: Earl was at--

LANE: Wittrock.

HUGHES: Wittrock.

LANE: The first time I've heard that name.

HUGHES: Earl Wittrock. Earl was at Northern Kentucky Technical College. So, Earl--I would convene the community college presidents--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and we actually kept meeting, aside from--

LANE: Did you?

HUGHES: Oh yeah, we kept meeting to, to map out strategy.

LANE: Of course.

HUGHES: They were meeting to map out strategy--(both laugh)--I don't know what strategy, we--

LANE: We shall meet.

44:00

HUGHES: Okay, and I remember Earl and I would call each other, and we'd say, well we're having a meeting, you're having a meeting, why don't we get together and talk and see if we could have some common meetings together. And then the two of us arranged for our presidents and directors to get together off (??) site Ramsey and--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --Hockaday and--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --all that--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --just so we could talk about issues. I think we had one meeting, as I remember, uh, but Earl and I were on the phone often, uh, talking about things, uh, talking about issues, and of course, their big issue--well, they had a number of issues--(laughs)--but their big issue was title, title--

LANE: Is that right?

HUGHES: --meant a lot to them. They were called directors and we were presidents, uh, they were paid much less than we were--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and they knew it.

LANE: They were state employees.

HUGHES: They were state employees--

LANE: You were faculty and administration.

HUGHES: --but their title was very, very important to them.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Uh, the, uh, and, and I'm not sure which one, whether it was 45:00Hockaday, or whether it happened under Hockaday, or whether Mike did it, uh, I think it was under Hockaday that the titles got changed.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, and that was a big important thing for them--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to be considered presidents.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Uh, otherwise, they were, you know, directors and presidents, it looked like they worked for us.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: There was a lot of symbols--

LANE: I can see that.

HUGHES: --going on.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh--

LANE: On the other hand, as someone had said in one of the interviews, in some cases, uh, the community college faculty had higher degrees, and some cases, really not, but, but there--

HUGHES: That's correct.

LANE: --there were both situations.

HUGHES: There were both situations. (clears throat)

LANE: So the degree may or may not have been a factor, but the title was the big thing in their mind, and sa-, then salary, do you think next?

HUGHES: Oh it's--yeah because--

LANE: Pay?

HUGHES: --because they were making significantly less than we were.

LANE: Less. Um-hm.

46:00

HUGHES: Uh, and all of the sudden now they were colleges--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --because, you know, on the day they changed, on the day they signed the bill, uh, Northern Kentucky Vocational School became a college.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Well, colleges have presidents.

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: So, it was important for them to be in their community as a president, uh, and that, and that took some, some time for that, I think to resonate--

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: --and get resolved within the System. That, that was a symbol that needed to get fixed. Like I said, I don't remember whether it was Jeff or--

LANE: --which one did it--

HUGHES: --early Mike did it. Uh, I think it was Jeff, but I'm not sure. I remember many of those meetings where we would have joint meetings--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and then we'd have separate meetings.

LANE: Um-hm. You'd go a--you'd have yours.

HUGHES: Yeah--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --we'd go off--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --and have our own.

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: Yep.

LANE: I don't know if I have that date, but that, that is an interesting factor. But that seemed to help solidify--when you think about those two different worlds coming together, frankly it's amazing that it happened.

HUGHES: Oh yeah. I mean, I--

47:00

LANE: And it took some time, and some, some--

HUGHES: --I--

LANE: --hurt, some scars.

HUGHES: --I ca-, I can tell you that when Mike came, after Mike got here and we had the consolidation--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --board meeting--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --resolution--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, we talked about and he came down and announced that I would be the president of--

LANE: And CEO.

HUGHES: --both of them--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and CEO of the district and--

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: --and I remember we had a, we, we, he did the announcement at the vocational school--

LANE: Did he?

HUGHES: --technical college.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --and, and I remember thinking about what I was going to say to them.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Here was all the vocational faculty, uh, I knew very few of them, but I knew some of them--

LANE: And Earl, Earl was--

HUGHES: No, no, this was--

LANE: --was he then?

HUGHES: --Connie--this was back in Hazard.

LANE: This was Connie, I'm sorry.

HUGHES: And, uh, Connie had retired.

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: I believe, at this point, Connie had retired, yes.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: So there was a vacancy.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: (coughs) And I--

LANE: -----------(??).

HUGHES: --stepped in to make--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --the vacancy.

LANE: Yeah, yeah, that's--

HUGHES: And I don't know the in-, I don't know the background of the retirement or anything.

48:00

LANE: Sure, I understand, that--

HUGHES: But, but Connie--

LANE: --happened several times.

HUGHES: --Connie had been there a long time.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Okay--(coughs)--and I remember--(clears throat)--thinking what am I going to tell this faculty? They've got to be--and this staff-- they've got to be really nervous--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you know.

LANE: Of course.

HUGHES: Even though I'd a good reputation in Hazard and tried to work--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --with people, I think I had a, uh, I knew, they knew of me, so it wasn't some guy from--(laughs)--you know--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --Wisconsin, or something--

LANE: Right. (laughs)

HUGHES: --uh, unknown.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: And I remember telling them, uh, a, a, about a story that I had heard, uh, about a guy who had a Christmas party, and in the middle of the Christmas party, his upstairs toilet stops up. So, he calls his plumber, and this was a doctor who is having his Christmas party in his house. And the plumber came, and, and, he goes up, and, two minutes later he comes back down and he says, "Your, your toilet's fixed. That will be, uh, eight hundred dollars." Eight hundred--I mean, you 49:00know, "That will at, a hundred and fifty dollars." "Hundred and fifty dollars. For two minutes? Well, that equates to like eight hundred dollars an hour or something."

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: And he said, "That's more than, that's more than I make." And the guy said, "Yeah, I know, I used to be a doctor, but now I'm a plumber." (Lane laughs) And I said--

LANE: Yeah, that's a good one.

HUGHES: --to them, I said to them, the reason I'm telling--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you this story--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --is, there's more to the story--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --is--(Lane laughs)--that what you're doing and have been doing at this college, this good college--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --is very important. You are producing the plumbers and the construction, and the road builders, and that's what we're gonna continue to do, we're going to figure a way to even improve on that. But I wanted them to understand, I understood that what they were doing--

LANE: --was important--

HUGHES: --was very important--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and in, in retrospect, uh, and, and people have said, that helped them understand that I, at least, understood--

LANE: They were.

HUGHES: --something.

50:00

LANE: And you respected them.

HUGHES: And then I told them a little bit about my own personal history--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --uh, to try to let them know, I didn't come from some ivory tower--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --of--

LANE: And I'm sure they thought that of some of the presidents.

HUGHES: --and, and, I think most of us tried to do that.

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: I don't know how successful we were, but--

LANE: Well--

HUGHES: --we tried to do it, because the blending of these two cultures was very, very different--

LANE: It--

HUGHES: --it was very difficult.

LANE: Two different worlds, uh, when you list the differences--

HUGHES: (clears throat) Yeah.

LANE: --the differences there.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: All right, now, when was the first time you met Mike McCall?

HUGHES: Oh, I met Mike McCall in, uh, Maysville? No--yes, Maysville.

LANE: When he was a candidate?

HUGHES: Oh no, no, I met Mike McCall, I met Mike McCall when he was a candidate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that's right, I met McCall when he was a candidate--

LANE: Because it was a very inclusive pro-, --

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --proce-,--

HUGHES: That's the--

LANE: --process--

HUGHES: --first time I met him--

LANE: --I understand.

HUGHES: --I met he and the other two candidates.

51:00

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Uh, when he was a candidate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and did not know him, uh, well, uh, I knew the other two candidates, and thought Mike probably is going to get the job.

LANE: Is that right? You knew the other two.

HUGHES: Um-hm.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Uh, I was surprised Jim Ramsey didn't stay, I thought Jim--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --would stay, I, I--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --really enjoyed--

LANE: --Um-hm.

HUGHES: --the time with Jim.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I knew Jeff wouldn't--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --Jeff was our--

LANE: Right, right, right.

HUGHES: --and I knew Nelson wouldn't--(clears throat)--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --but, uh--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --and I knew Nelson quite well before, because I was at, he was at Morehead. Uh--

LANE: I had a great visit with him last week.

HUGHES: --uh, is his health doing okay?

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Good, good.

LANE: Yeah, he, he was just, he was so worried, so dear--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --and worried. He said, "You know, now I won't be able to remember a lot of dates." I said, "I don't either, I have--

HUGHES: You have a cheat sheet.

LANE: --a cheat sheet." But he just--

HUGHES: Yeah, I--

LANE: --he just took me through two hours, it was wonderful.

HUGHES: --yeah, I, I've, so I, you know, it was pretty clear, it was between he and one other--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --candidate. You know--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --the, the third candidate was good, but just--

LANE: Yeah--

HUGHES: --was not--

LANE: --not there--

HUGHES: --going to fit--

LANE: --not there.

52:00

HUGHES: --in our, in my mind, and, uh, then the time I really met him was in Maysville, uh, when he and Carolyn came in and, uh, and I think his one daughter came in the hotel. It was, either had been snowing and rainy, and, uh, it was his f-, he was [clicking sound] had been named president--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and I think this was his first meeting with the presidents.

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: Uh, and we literally were waiting for him, or we were sitting there drinking beer and eating pizza, or something--(Lane laughs)--and I remember him coming in and I've been pretty jovial most of my life, and I remember, you know, making some jokes about his family, and how he'd showed up here--

LANE: Oh yeah.

HUGHES: --in Kentucky and my God they actually have shoes, or something like that--

LANE: Yeah, right.

HUGHES: --just to kind of--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --break--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --and--

LANE: --break the ice, and it was snowing--

HUGHES: --just to--

LANE: --and he's--

HUGHES: --just--

LANE: --from South Carolina.

HUGHES: --just to kind of break the ice, and--

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --and 'cause I'm, I'm sure that, he's never said it, but I'm sure that somebody coming into that System, knowing the history--

53:00

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --knowing the fact that at least some of us had fought pretty darn hard--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to make sure this thing didn't--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --happen--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --uh, even though it was a year and half already gone--

LANE: Who are they, and what are they going to think?

HUGHES: --yeah, what are they going to do, and--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and, uh, you know--

LANE: Are they going to beat, beat up on me, or--

HUGHES: I just figured, I'm one, that's the way--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --that's the way I am and, and, uh, uh, and to his credit he, he took us at who we were, and what talents we had--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and said, "You know, that was then, this is now, let's move on."

LANE: Let's move on.

HUGHES: "I am expecting you to help build this System."

LANE: That was his, that's what he said to you the first time he met with you.

HUGHES: Yeah, I think, I, I might, my sense--I don't remember the exact words, but my sense is, we're in this, you know, since it was the-- we're in this together--

LANE: --together--

HUGHES: --and, and I really need the expertise of the people here in this room.

LANE: Yeah, and he did--

HUGHES: He sure did.

LANE: --he certainly did. (Hughes clears throat) Gosh, uh, because you were your own entities, but yet you had become, you had--a, a different 54:00unit than you had been--

HUGHES: And I will tell you--

LANE: ----------(??).

HUGHES: --the first year and a half, was very difficult. We didn't--

LANE: Really.

HUGHES: --have many staff at the central office--

LANE: No.

HUGHES: --we didn't--

LANE: Now this is the year and a half before he came--

HUGHES: --yeah--

LANE: --or after? Before--

HUGHES: --before--

LANE: No. Oh.

HUGHES: --I mean you think about--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --we didn't have many staff, we didn't, we, we were, we were trying to manage using Workforce Development people, and community college people, and university people, and, and, you know, the university was moving on--

LANE: Yeah, they were.

HUGHES: --uh, that--not that they were mean to us or anything, but they were moving on, they had a new mission, uh--

LANE: Well, actually Jackie said, Jackie Bondurant who was there at, at Breckinridge Hall--

HUGHES: Hmm.

LANE: --said the minute that bill was signed, said, "We sort of, sort of became, uh, outcasts or something of the sort."

HUGHES: Sure they did, sure they did--

LANE: On campus it would have been much different than for you all.

HUGHES: Yeah, I'm sure they did.

LANE: Yeah, but they did move on, so you were--

HUGHES: So, we really--

LANE: --in the middle building this new plan--

HUGHES: --I mean we were flying by the seat of our pants--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --we had, you know--

LANE: A new board.

HUGHES: --we had a new board--I mean we had a board, we had a board that 55:00didn't know how to be a board.

LANE: That's exactly what they say, so you aren't saying anything they haven't said.

HUGHES: I mean--

LANE: Richard Bean and Cynthia Read said, "We didn't know what we were doing."

HUGHES: I remember, I remember the chair of the board, God love her, at one of the meetings, announcing a, a, a committee off--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --the top of her head--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and it was all the faculty and staff on the committee with one appointed board member and it was to look at some internal thing.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: It was like, oh my gosh, you never, you know--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --you never--

LANE: Yeah, -----------(??)--

HUGHES: --ever, off the top of your head name a, a committee, you say I'll take it under advisement. Well, and a year later, uh, I know Dr. McCall once said to us his first, one of his first jobs would be to train the board.

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: And, and I think one of the reasons he was here is the board saw that they needed training and he trained the board.

56:00

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, because certainly one of the rules around here has always been this is by board, and I need to have of the, the, the, uh, the relationship of the board and it's not unlike the rule I have at my place--

LANE: Exactly.

HUGHES: --these are my--

LANE: --you understood that--

HUGHES: --board members, and we understood that.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, and I think if you look back, we look back after that first year, maybe a year and a half at a, had a board meeting, and it was like, it was like night and day--

LANE: --night and day--

HUGHES: --it was so much better and the same players were there.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: It was just, it was much more organized, the board meetings--

LANE: Did that happen when Mike came--

HUGHES: When Mike came.

LANE: --or did any of that happen before he came on board--

HUGHES: No.

LANE: --as much? Okay.

HUGHES: Not really.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Because you think a year and a half--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --we went from Jim--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --Nelson--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --Jeff--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you know--

LANE: Too many changes.

HUGHES: --to an aborted, remember we had an aborted--

LANE: Oh, the search.

HUGHES: --search.

LANE: You certainly did.

HUGHES: And then, the board asked Jim Ramsey to apply and didn't hire 57:00him.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, that's how--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --that's how immature the board was--

LANE: I see.

HUGHES: --as, as a board, not--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --individuals, not--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --foolish, but as a board.

LANE: A higher ed board.

HUGHES: Yes.

LANE: A board of--some of them had been board members at other institutions--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --or organizations--(Hughes clears throat)--or corporations.

HUGHES: They had, they had to have some time--

LANE: -----------(??).

HUGHES: --to get together.

LANE: Of course they did.

HUGHES: And they had to have somebody to help do that.

LANE: And nothing stopped, because you had to, you had to build that plane while you were--

HUGHES: Oh yeah, we had students--

LANE: --putting the wings on as they say.

HUGHES: --we had students in our classes--

LANE: You sure did, you had policies, you had staff and faculty whose personnel system you were building.

HUGHES: Absolutely.

LANE: Yeah, so there were--

HUGHES: So it was a--

LANE: --massive--

HUGHES: --very--

LANE: --there was a massive amount.

HUGHES: --very stressful year and half to two years.

LANE: And you just took a deep breath and said--

HUGHES: I don't even think we took a deep breath.

LANE: Did you not?

HUGHES: I, I think we were so immersed in it that it's a blur; it's a complete blur.

LANE: And the budg-, the first budgeting process. I talked to Ken Walker this morning, who--

HUGHES: It's just a blur.

LANE: --who detailed that for me, is that right?

HUGHES: Just a bl-, I don't, I'm not sure how we got by, got through--

LANE: Is that right?

HUGHES: --some of this stuff.

LANE: Is that right? And then, after Mike came, how long did it take 58:00till you were able to take a breath and think, okay, well this, I think maybe we will--

HUGHES: Well--

LANE: --last a year.

HUGHES: --there, there, there're two--

LANE: Or was that immediate?

HUGHES: --there're probably tw-, now, now, there were probably two times that, uh, are critical, and you've heard probably one of them, uh, the famous, uh, board meeting, uh, a famous, uh, uh, presidents' meeting in, uh, Western Kentucky--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, where he had met with the, uh, Governor--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, to, and, with his goal of, uh, merging--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and consolidating, and the Governor had said, "It's to-, too soon." And so from what we thought we were going to do that day-- (laughs)--which was to map--

LANE: Two agendas.

HUGHES: --strategy--

LANE: Two agendas.

HUGHES: --yeah, to, to, to map strategy we ended up really doing the first strategic planning--

LANE: Um-hm, visioning.

59:00

HUGHES: --the very first visioning--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --we said, "What should a community technical college look like for 2000--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --in the next century?"

LANE: Have you heard the shirt story?

HUGHES: The shirt story.

LANE: I'll tell you a story and we will commit to record, this is something Tim Burcham told me. You had assembled--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --that staff had prepared two agendas, yes--

HUGHES: Yes.

LANE: --consolidation--

HUGHES: --that's correct, that's correct--

LANE: --no consolidation--

HUGHES: Yes.

LANE: Mike McCall was meeting with Paul Patton--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --and had to fly in at the last minute.

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: The signal was, if he had on a certain color shirt, consol-,--

HUGHES: Oh, oh, I didn't know that.

LANE: --get the consolidation agenda out, had on another one, get the other agenda out.

HUGHES: I didn't know that.

LANE: It was that tight.

HUGHES: Yeah, I mean--

LANE: And that's, that's a defining moment.

HUGHES: --and, and, and I remember when he got off the plane and came in, he, he was visibly shaken.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: And it wasn't, it wasn't the little plane ride over, but he was physically shaken, and it took--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --uh, it took a couple of hours for that to wear off, uh--

LANE: Hmm. That--

HUGHES: --we knew something was, was up, right away, I mean if you, I 60:00don't know if we, I knew, I think some of us knew something was up.

LANE: So, do you think, do you think, in general, and I will ask him this, but that the vision of the group and Mike McCall was, we will go forward with the consolidation--

HUGHES: Oh, we were going to merge, we just weren't going to use the--

LANE: No--

HUGHES: --we--

LANE: --we're -----------(??).

HUGHES: --the strategy was going to go--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --we had to back up--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --it wasn't that the Governor said, "No," the Governor said, "Not now."

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: Okay?

LANE: That, that's what I understood.

HUGHES: And, yeah, and, and that was clearly the message, but I think, when, if I were in Mike's shoes, you come in to talk to what then had been a narrowed down group--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --by that time, we were getting close to the sixteen we have.

LANE: Yes you were.

HUGHES: Okay? Uh, it was, it was designed to be, that retreat was designed to be the first time his team, mostly his team, we still had some others--

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: --mostly his team--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --was going to take a crack at what could this thing look like, 61:00and, uh, I think we ended up still doing that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --it was the first real effort that I can remember, the reason it's important, I think, is it's the first time, to use my baseball analogy, it's the first time we hit a knuckleball.

LANE: Hmm, um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: A lot of curves thrown at us--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --a lot of fastballs--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --but this one was one that kind of came in, we--they might have thought there was two agendas, uh, but we--

LANE: ----------(??).

HUGHES: --we really thought we were going to be moving down this direction, everybody was fired up hearing each other--

LANE: And it was how we're going--

HUGHES: --it was how--

LANE: --these are going to be--

HUGHES: --and it--

LANE: --the nuts and bolts of it.

HUGHES: --and it wasn't, we hit the knuckleball, uh, and we hit it well, we just weren't sure we hit it well, be--and, and, my, my point is, we felt--I remember feeling really good about that meeting when I went home--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --it was a long drive--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to, to, uh, Hazard.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And I remember going home and saying to my wife, "This, this is 62:00probably an important meeting, I've, I've got a feeling that this is first time we're coming together as a real leadership team."

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --because, these can get to be pretty tedious meetings.

LANE: Sure, sure.

HUGHES: And, y-, we were faced with so many struggles that you'd come away from those meetings thinking, gosh, are we doing anything right--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --because we were fixing so much all the time.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, that was the first time I came away from the meeting thinking we spent the majority of this time thinking about the future--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and what it could be, and we still have, and I'm sure we still have--I know we still have the list of what community college could look like--

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: --moving forward--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I think there is still that list--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that's out there.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And it's still, uh, and it's still a good jumping point, off point to go back and review.

LANE: It sure is, isn't it?

HUGHES: And I remember saying to Sarah, boy this is really one of the, 63:00this, this could have been a really important meeting--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --because it's pretty clear that we were headed down this road, we're going to get there, probably stronger, but we've had to take a detour.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I felt pretty good about that. I'd say the second time--this is hard to say--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --the second time we really knew we were bonding, I guess bonding--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --or we were really a team--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --is when Mike made his last hire of new presidents--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that replaced all of the--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --vocational directors.

LANE: Ah ha.

HUGHES: And, by that time, he had replaced a couple of community college--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --presidents who were problematic.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: When we got to the point where it was Dr. McCall's leadership 64:00[clicking sound] team, both staff-wise--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --and the presidents--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --we, I remember we, we really did celebrate that with him, that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, 'cause I believe he began the meeting, the retreat saying, "It's been x number of years getting here, but we're here, this is us."

LANE: And he used--

HUGHES: We are--

LANE: --red-letter day--

HUGHES: --we are the team--

LANE: --and, didn't he? That term, this is a red-letter day.

HUGHES: --we are--this is the red-letter day, we are the team--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --this is what--

LANE: Wow.

HUGHES: --will move us forward.

LANE: Wow.

HUGHES: This is the group, we're here--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --you're all, you know, and I, and I believe we, I'm, I'm not sure which memento he pulled out for that one, whether that was the, the hour-glass, or the--(Lane laughs)--or the compass, or what.

LANE: Did he give you all those?

HUGHES: Yes, he did.

LANE: 'Cause Richard Bean says, "He pays us in trinkets."

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: He loves that.

HUGHES: Yeah, and, and I, that wasn't, that, those are two times I don't remember the date, if you probably but, those are the two times when--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you saw us actually moving--

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --toward that. Uh--

LANE: That's encouraging.

HUGHES: --I, I think the other time, uh, I will tell you, just looking 65:00at that logo--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, I giv-, I give a lot of credit to Bryan Armstrong--

LANE: Yes, yes.

HUGHES: --uh, utilizing the Internet--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, utilizing, uh, different options, different, uh, uh, different, uh, examples and getting people to buy-in, and vote, and being very visible about that, and coming up with that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that stood the test of time--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and, uh--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --it was an example, a very important symbol, uh, of the new System being inclusive, that came because people voted online, and all of--I don't know if you know the history of that.

LANE: Uh, Jackie Bondurant was--

HUGHES: Good.

LANE: --was part of that team, and--

HUGHES: It's an important part of the history, because it was the way we did that.

LANE: The process, yeah.

HUGHES: You know--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --if you think about what happened to us to create KCTCS--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you know, the vocational system, nor the community colleges wanted it to happen.

66:00

LANE: True.

HUGHES: They wanted to stay, and we wanted to stay.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: Okay? So--

LANE: -----------(??).

HUGHES: --here, everything was a shotgun wedding.

LANE: (laughs) Yeah.

HUGHES: Well--

LANE: That's, that's--

HUGHES: --if you won't like, the analogy if it's a shotgun wedding, we agreed on what the engagement and wedding ring was to look like.

LANE: Look like.

HUGHES: We agreed to do that.

LANE: And--

HUGHES: That is ours.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: And that was the first symbol--

LANE: That's a symbol--

HUGHES: --that was--

LANE: --the first--

HUGHES: --ours.

LANE: --symbol and let's describe--(Hughes clears throat)--the ------- ---(??), it's the circular logo with the higher education columns, and then the book--

HUGHES: The book and the gear.

LANE: --and the gear representing all of those.

HUGHES: Yes.

LANE: You're right, that's fascinating.

HUGHES: It is. That was ours.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: The name was given to us, the wedding was forced, but the symbol we created, and, and, and I give an awful lot of credit to Bryan Armstrong--

LANE: Yeah, yeah, he--

HUGHES: --for that process.

LANE: --he's truly--

HUGHES: That was an inclusive process that, then Dr. McCall brought, and, and we were using some of this in the community college, but his RSVP process.

67:00

LANE: Oh yes.

HUGHES: We were using a similar thing in--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --the community college--

LANE: --all right, yeah.

HUGHES: --not quite like that--

LANE: Right, right.

HUGHES: --but it was very similar, and we found that was very inclusive, and that process rolled out the RSVP also said, "We're gonna include people in appropriate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --decision-making--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --for the System."

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: Uh, very important, because--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --more the vocational sys-, system than the community colleges, but voc ed was controlled from Frankfort.

LANE: Sure they were.

HUGHES: We were less controlled than that, but we still felt controlled--

LANE: Of course.

HUGHES: --from UK.

LANE: So the differences, characterize the difference in that, the old structure for you as a community college, and the new one with KCTCS, is it, uh, responsiveness, getting a new program on the, up and going, uh, is it respect, is it all of those?

HUGHES: I think it's all of those, I think the System was created and developed to support the colleges--

68:00

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --okay?

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: We had to have--because we believed, one of our tenets back in--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --House Bill 1, was keep us together as a system, don't break us up--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and don't create mechanisms that allow us to be broken up, like these--

LANE: -----------(??).

HUGHES: --independent--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --boards, bad--

LANE: Okay.

HUGHES: --deal, okay?

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: But, when we created the System, what we didn't want is system control, we wanted respect--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --we wanted autonomy--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --I mean, I remember David Karem saying, "Be careful for what you wish."

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: We wanted autonomy, we wanted program approval, we wanted accreditation--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --to continue--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --and all of those things. We wanted more responsibility, and I think, by and large, we have more responsibility at the local level than we did under the other systems, and we have greater degree of responsibility, and I think greater degree of respect within higher education--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --for what we do.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: The interesting thing, ten years, uh, later--

69:00

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --is, I think the sixteen colleges are better positioned within the state, certainly within their region--

LANE: Of course.

HUGHES: --but within the state, as well as the ninth entity being KCTCS.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I think both the System and the individual colleges are a much stronger--

LANE: --stronger--

HUGHES: --more respected--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --well-thought of--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --component of higher education and work-force in adult ed in this state than we would have been without the System.

LANE: The System has enjoyed a great deal of growth, programs, students. The last statistic I heard was ninety-five thousand, uh, ninety-two, ninety-five. Um-hm.

HUGHES: I think it's ninety-two thousand.

LANE: Yeah. (Hughes clears throat) Would you--do you think you would- -that would have happened because of, of, uh, the needs in work-force when--if you had stayed? Is that a fair question, if you'd stayed with 70:00the university?

HUGHES: Oh.

LANE: Do you think it's a product of our times?

HUGHES: Uh, I--

LANE: -----------(??).

HUGHES: --you know, that's a great, great question, I haven't ever thought about that, quite like that. Uh, the individual systems would have been unable to deal with the work-force crisis that's hitting this state--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --uh, we would have been, I, I, I can give you an example from Hazard. We recruited American Woodmark to come and build a plant, uh, they build the cabinets the--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --they had a plant in Virginia, they could have just stayed in Virginia, I mean their home was Virginia. But we recruited them. This was after House Bill 1.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: We recruited them because I was at the table representing vocational education, adult community education, I was there representing--

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: --and I had members of the staff of all of those, I was the single point contact, and if you ask Paul Patton, he was asking for 71:00a single point of contact for the industries and businesses in this community.

LANE: Good example.

HUGHES: Had--and that--and we got that.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I mean I was able to say to the president of W-, American Woodmark when he came that I would be--on the day he announced he would move that plant or create a plant, Eastern Kentucky, at Hazard, that same day, I would tell him who on my, at my college, would be his main liaison to develop the work-force he needed for his plant. And I did, I did that--she ended up working for him by the way. Uh, I couldn't have done that--

LANE: No.

HUGHES: --and I--

LANE: --except by going back--

HUGHES: --and I, and I, what I said to him was, "I have all the resources of both of these institutions--

LANE: --Right here.

HUGHES: --and fifteen others in the community coll-," well, twenty-seven others--

LANE: That's a very good example.

HUGHES: --in the community, and I could not have said that under the university--

LANE: No you couldn't.

HUGHES: --or, nor to that president, Connie Johnson would have been 72:00there saying, here is what we can do for you--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --I'd have been there saying, here is what we can do for you, even though we would have not have said, yeah, don't listen to them, we would have been saying separately--

LANE: You were competing.

HUGHES: --ah, don't listen to them. (Lane laughs) And to that president--

LANE: Yeah, yeah.

HUGHES: --he is only--it happened to be a he--he only wanted to know where he was getting his work-force trained.

LANE: That's it.

HUGHES: Period.

LANE: That's it. Great example.

HUGHES: So, it, it wouldn't have happened otherwise.

LANE: Great example.

HUGHES: We would not have ninety-five thousand, we would not serve five thousand companies or whatever it happens now without that, there's clear in my mind that it's not, it's not even possible under the other systems, it's only possible under this one.

LANE: Discuss the, if you would--(sighs)--work-force training, and liberal--a good liberal arts education. Do you know what I am getting at? There are those who say, gosh, you don't want to become just trainers for a specific job, it's so important for students to have a good liberal arts education, how are you dealing with that in your 73:00sch-, in your--

HUGHES: Well, at Gateway what we deal with it is, is, uh, we happen to live in a, in an interesting community-region that, uh, has a P-16 Council--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that's quite good.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: It's been, been touted as one of the earliest and if not the, one of the most effective in, in, in Kentucky. Uh, but we've been dealing with this issue by simply saying you have to be able to, uh, work in a modern world, which means you need to have liberal arts soft skills, i.e. the soft skills--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --teamwork, writing, math, all of that.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: So we've been talking to high schools for a long time about their graduates' need to be ready to come to college and go into a four-year, graduate from us, and move on through transfer, or be prepared for work.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And so the same skills that you need to be in a liberal arts, 74:00it's the same skills you need to be in a technical work-force.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: That's been a fairly easy sell at my institution at Gateway. Uh, what is, what, what's, what's critical though, is, and what we've tried to deal with, is that we're in the business of learning--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and if you focus on learning, it doesn't matter whether it's English literature--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --or welding, it's learning.

LANE: It's learning.

HUGHES: You may have to deliver the subject differently--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: -- there's different time periods or whatever, so let's focus on the learning and that allows me to say to the university, what do you need our kids, our, our students rather, to know in order to be able to transfer--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --to the un-, in-, industries, what do you need our students, graduates to be able to do in order to work. So it's focus on learning--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, that's to, that's how we deal with it.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, when I went to Gateway, Northern Kentucky Technical College, 75:00uh, I found a, I found a, uh, one of, within the first year or two, found a speed bump cartoon in which, uh, speed bump, uh, it was a cartoon and showed a college, and what it was about, it said, "School of technical cure--careers you got to go down here, school of liberal arts you got to go there." So I took the cal-, the cartoon and I merged it and I changed the arrows to point into the same institution, and I changed the name to Gateway.

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: Well, Gateway, Northern Kentucky Tech, and I said, "You know, you worry about will we become the community college, and will we somehow no longer be the technical college," and I said, "We're both, we're both the path for liberal arts--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and the path for technical careers," and we still use that speed bump--modified speed bump cartoon--to talk about, it doesn't really matter.

LANE: It doesn't matter, it's learning.

HUGHES: It's learning, and we got to do both of it, and we got to both 76:00of it well.

LANE: Um-hm, you can't separate them, really. You can't say, I'm going to be a welder, so I don't need to know about--

HUGHES: You, you talk about welding--

LANE: --things.

HUGHES: --my, uh, my example when I go talk to parents, uh, and we talk to parents, and we talk to students, but, you know, we talk to them about what are the needs to get into Gateway--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --because we've had to re-, we've had to re-engineer people's thinking--(laughs)--about, about technical education, we've always had to do that, that somehow, if you are not able to go to a real college, you can go to--

LANE: --yeah--

HUGHES: --a community college--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --or a technical college--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and get a good job.

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: Well, all higher education is about getting a job, or a career.

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: Uh, and I rem-, I, I tell people that, you know. I ask them what's the oldest vocational college in America, and people give me different answers--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and I remind them it was Harvard.

LANE: (laughs) Yeah.

77:00

HUGHES: It was a vocational school.

LANE: Yeah, to start with--

HUGHES: Yes it was.

LANE: --it sure was, I remember that.

HUGHES: You know, and, and, so, they go, "Harvard--

LANE: Harvard? Are you sure?

HUGHES: --Harvard? I haven't thought about that." Yeah, I'm sure because--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --it was to train ministers to go into the wilds and--

LANE: That's it.

HUGHES: --and save those heathens.

LANE: That's it.

HUGHES: Uh, now, back to, back to your answer, back to my point, I use welding as an example, I say, "Do you realize you have to read at a high level, you have to understand mathematics at a pretty high level--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --you have to be able to take directions and communicate, because you can sure burn up a lot of product--

LANE: --mess up--

HUGHES: --if you're using the wrong welding--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and the wrong materials--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and how do you know that? You've got to be able to read the technical manual." So, if you think you're going to get in to the welding program with an eighth grade education, you're not. You need to be able to graduate from high school, and by the way, when you get into the welding program, and you finish, and you go out there, you will get these kind of wages--

78:00

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --with full benefits.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And people start, oh wow. So, we've had to use that, I think all of us have had to use the notion, the technical work-force education is just as legitimate--

LANE: Oh yeah.

HUGHES: --as the college.

LANE: Good, I, I think that's--

HUGHES: I think we've had to do that.

LANE: --and you know those thoughts exist, so you're--

HUGHES: -----------(??).

LANE: --learning how to deal with it, I, I heard someone say, about the welding analogy. I can do it, but I want to know it.

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: And that, that's the difference in solving problems--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --thinking creatively--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --I heard the--

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: --the, uh, I guess the president of the Kentucky Association of Manufacturing--

HUGHES: Um-hm.

LANE: --speak at one of the educational forums and he said, "We, we need critical thinkers team, team players--

HUGHES: Um-hm.

LANE: --uh, yes they can be good technically, but that's only part of it."

HUGHES: And we have to train our vocational--we have to train our counselors and our parents, we have--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --to educate them--

LANE: Yeah, we do.

HUGHES: --that the factories of today are not the factories of the fifties.

79:00

LANE: No, they are not.

HUGHES: --and we're talking very high level skills that people, if they have them, these companies are paying lots of money--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --for those people.

LANE: I heard someone say, in one of--I think it might have been at the trusteeship forum that Goldman Sachs and Google are two companies who only hire liberal arts educated students, they work a year, and then they send them for their technical training.

HUGHES: Sure, that's about right.

LANE: Isn't that interesting?

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: Fascinating.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: So that's illustrating what we're saying.

HUGHES: Yep.

LANE: What do you think about this, uh, new home for--

HUGHES: I, I--

LANE: --for the System office?

HUGHES: --well I, I mean, it was, it sure beats where we were--

LANE: You were--and, and, and this whole System office was scattered--

HUGHES: We were--

LANE: --in two different--

HUGHES: --we were scattered--

LANE: --counties.

HUGHES: --so we, it was important to have a home. I think the real trick is that, uh, uh, in our next ten years, I hope that in ten years we look back and we see this not as the, uh, place where everything 80:00comes from that's good, but the, the, the, the place where all of us who are out there, all those sixty-five campuses--(laughs)--that we talk about, and the sixteen colleges are supported.

LANE: Yeah, that's good, good way to think about it.

HUGHES: And, and the, the good news is [clicking sound] we have this, the bad news is we have this.

LANE: Um-hm, um-hm.

HUGHES: You know, it's--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --it, it can become a headquarters--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --I don't think it will, I don't think we're going to allow that, where you know, you sort of have to go to the mountain top every once in a while?

LANE: Gotcha, gotcha.

HUGHES: Uh, to a convening point.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And I, and I think we're working real hard to make sure that's it's not a mountain top experience in, in the negative way, you know, we're a f-, where all knowledge comes from?

LANE: Gotcha.

HUGHES: But it's a convening place where we can learn from each other, where we can truly collaborate, uh--

LANE: Hmm.

HUGHES: --and truly be a, a system of best practices that we learned 81:00something at Gateway, and Gateway learned something at Paducah, and, and we truly learn--

LANE: --you share--

HUGHES: --that this is the resource base, this is the place where we can convene those resources.

LANE: Interesting.

HUGHES: Yeah, I, that's just my hope--

LANE: So that's hope for the next--

HUGHES: --that's my hope--

LANE: --ten years.

HUGHES: --for the next ten years.

LANE: Anything else for the next ten years?

HUGHES: (sighs) Gosh--

LANE: -----------(??) things?

HUGHES: --well yeah, I kind--

LANE: You're going to be real tired after I've drained your brain. (laughs)

HUGHES: No, no, no, no, I, I, I think we've, I think we have hope that, uh, we can finish the consolidation around work-force--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: I think there are pieces, uh, that still are in the state, that, uh, often a, uh, a CEO of a major company or a minor company--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --might still have to deal with two or three--

LANE: Yeah, yeah--

HUGHES: --people--

LANE: --yeah--

HUGHES: --that are dealing with technical--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --work-force. I am not talking about the universities either--

LANE: No.

HUGHES: --I'm talking about the area technology centers--

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: --I'm talking about adult ed--

LANE: Right.

HUGHES: --uh, we have not, we have not consolidated all of the right 82:00services--right programs, I'm sorry--uh, that still exist in, in the resources of the commonwealth. Uh, we still have several that are hanging out there.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: And I would hope, over the next ten years, we would find a way to collaborate and consolidate those--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --so that the presidents and the president of this system can truly be called in by a governor and have all the resources to deal with, from adult ed and literacy--excuse me--literacy needs to technical needs, to programs that move on-, online--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --that move people to higher levels--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --of education, to, uh, specific work-force training, and we have a couple of piece--and, and, and deal with truly deal with the pipeline issue from age sixteen up.

83:00

LANE: Yes, okay.

HUGHES: We still, we're still disjointed as a system. I hope that over the next ten years we can, can collaborate, con-, consolidate--

LANE: Make that--

HUGHES: --merge--

LANE: --more seamless--

HUGHES: --make that happen, um-hm.

LANE: --more seamless.

HUGHES: Yeah, and it, you know, it's just, it goes back to your earlier question, could I have done what I did with American Woodwork--Woodmark under two separate systems, the answer's no.

LANE: Unh-uh.

HUGHES: Uh, where I happen to be now in an institution where we do two, where we do a, a very large county, we run the adult ed program. Well, that's perfect, I mean I can, I can bring the adult ed director, any vocational occupational program, testing, assessment, you name it, I can bring them all to the table.

LANE: --to the table--

HUGHES: In those counties where I don't have that individual, I've got to negotiate--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --now we develop good relationships so that negotiations are over.

LANE: Sure.

HUGHES: But it would be nice to be able to, be able to have that, uh--

84:00

LANE: So that, that's a good goal for the--

HUGHES: --I--for me I--

LANE: --for the next ten years.

HUGHES: --for me I hope that we can do that.

LANE: Well, and I think, it--

HUGHES: I--

LANE: --well and you--

HUGHES: --the other goal--

LANE: --look at the Cabinet for Economic Development--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --and--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --and the different entities that are dealing with bringing, bringing jobs and companies--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --to Kentucky to improve our lot--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --and your hope, there's a hope that those folks work more together--

HUGHES: Right.

LANE: --with you all at the center probably.

HUGHES: I, I, I would like to see us continue our, our, our reputation building--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, focused on the--we, we spent the first, large part of this first ten years just getting this system up and running--

LANE: Yeah, right, yeah.

HUGHES: --I'd like to see the next ten years really focus on the, the colleges of the System, and that's why I said that and, and this, this be the central point of support--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --really.

LANE: Developing strengths, and, and becoming more strategic perhaps 85:00in programming?

HUGHES: Becoming more strategic and, and, and, and realizing the dream that we're a system. The reason we are a system is to share resources--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --to share our expertise--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and figure out how to do that across the commonwealth. And I'm not saying we haven't done that, but we haven't fully realized that--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --yet, and I am not sure we could have.

LANE: No, considering what you've done.

HUGHES: What we have done in ten years is pretty phenomenal.

LANE: I think so.

HUGHES: I mean, I did write the current president, or current new, uh, governor a note, and, and, and congratulating him, I've known him for a long time, and saying simply that, you know, if you look back at the body of work that have, that's, that's KCTCS it's a pretty impressive set of achievements, and it's a, it's a big asset for him--

LANE: Yes it is.

HUGHES: --as he wants to pu-, move his vision of Kentucky forward--

86:00

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --and I'm sure that, you know, that, that we will good partners with him, and I was just reminding him, you know, we're a big asset for you.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: Uh, and we are a whole lot more mature than we were--

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: --ten years ago, so use us.

LANE: That's right.

HUGHES: Use us.

LANE: And that, that was a smart thing to say, and it's so true.

HUGHES: Right it is.

LANE: It's so very true.

HUGHES: It is.

LANE: At, we, I, this is most enjoyable for me, I know you need to get on the road, is there anything else you would like to, uh, to say for the, the ten-year wrap-up?

HUGHES: (coughs) No, I, I mean I, I've been very fortunate in my, uh, career here in Kentucky, uh, you know, with, with the University of Kentucky, uh, we were able to do some things at Hazard where we merged a private college--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --Lees Junior College.

LANE: Yes, you did.

HUGHES: That was very unique--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, and allowed us to do some things that we would not have been able to do in Eastern Kentucky--

87:00

LANE: Oh.

HUGHES: That occurred successfully under the university, uh, then saw this, and clearly we're in a different, we're in a different league today.

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: Uh, the fact that there are states now that look at Kentucky.

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: When I go--

LANE: Doesn't that feel good?

HUGHES: Well yeah, sure does, I mean we, you know, there was a, there was a year in which Mike was the chair-elect of the board--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and I was the chair of the Presidents Academy--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --which is the, the, uh, AACC Academy that's made up of all community and technical college presidents and we do all the--two Kentuckians heading--

LANE: --national--

HUGHES: --two very visible national, uh, organizations in community colleges.

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: I don't think that ever happened.

LANE: Probably not.

HUGHES: Uh, and then--

LANE: Surely.

HUGHES: --and then, then, you know, you think about why did that occur, 88:00well, I, nobody knew Hazard, Kentucky, but they had heard of Kentucky, they've heard of, you know, I'm sure that helped--

LANE: You know it did.

HUGHES: --me get elected, 'cause I was elected by all the presidents in, in a ballot, and it certainly helped Mike within his, his peers in the board, I mean that wouldn't have happened--

LANE: No.

HUGHES: --without the strength of the sys-, of the System--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, and if that's what we did in the first ten years, and, and really, the first five of those ten years, we were just trying to figure out what we were--

LANE: Yes.

HUGHES: --becoming.

LANE: Definitely.

HUGHES: Or at least the first four, uh, my goodness, what could we become?

LANE: That's what I say.

HUGHES: What could we become? And, and not just to become a powerful organization in the state, but to really change lives.

LANE: Lots of lives.

HUGHES: I really still like changing lives.

LANE: I do too, I like that too.

HUGHES: Uh, because that's what we do, and it focuses on people, not an organization.

LANE: You're right.

HUGHES: Uh, I understand why we have higher education begins here, but 89:00changing lives is what we do--

LANE: We do.

HUGHES: --I mean that's what we do every single day.

LANE: The stories are wonderful.

HUGHES: They are, and they'll just get bigger and better.

LANE: Yes, they will.

HUGHES: They really will.

LANE: They really will.

HUGHES: And so in ten years, I hope that the next governor, if it's, maybe it's the lieutenant governor, in ten years looks back and, and sees that we've got a top twenty university, a top twenty research university, a top twenty--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --uh, urban university--

LANE: Um-hm.

HUGHES: --and the top that can be measured, community and technical college system, and I think we can clearly be able to do that.

LANE: That's a great goal--we will be approaching our 2020--

HUGHES: Um-hm.

LANE: --broad goal, too.

HUGHES: Um-hm.

LANE: Excellent. This has been great, I've enjoyed it.

HUGHES: Well I look forward to--

LANE: If, if you think of other things--

HUGHES: I will.

LANE: --please contact me, and I--

HUGHES: I look forward to--

LANE: --and I'll -----------(??).

HUGHES: --seeing this, this will be great.

LANE: Well, this is going to be great.

HUGHES: I am glad you're doing it.

LANE: But what, what we'll--

HUGHES: I'm glad you're doing this, and I thank--

LANE: Well, thank you.

HUGHES: --uh, Dr. McC-, uh, Wethington and the others are doing the--

LANE: Oh yeah, they're doing your individual--

HUGHES: The other histories.

LANE: --histories, have they been to your--

HUGHES: Yeah, I--

LANE: --your campus?

HUGHES: --I know more about Hazard than I know about, you know--

90:00

LANE: Gateway.

HUGHES: --the, the Gateway from '97 on--

LANE: Yeah.

HUGHES: --so I've asked them to talk to Earl and some other people.

LANE: Great. Well, we're, we're gathering just a--

HUGHES: Are you guys going to collaborate at all on that?

LANE: Oh yeah. We--

HUGHES: Yeah, okay, good--

LANE: --we did at the very beginning--

HUGHES: Cool.

LANE: --we're touching base, and--

HUGHES: Oh cool.

LANE: --and we have asked, as you know, your, your schools to send us our, the templates--

HUGHES: Yeah, yeah.

LANE: --of your, of your overall history.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: Because fully 50--

HUGHES: ----------(??).

LANE: --50 percent of this publication is going to be you all--

HUGHES: Yeah, I think--

LANE: --the sixteen units.

HUGHES: --they're working with you on that.

LANE: Oh yeah, Jackie, Jackie--

HUGHES: Yeah, yeah.

LANE: --is helping coordinate that.

HUGHES: Yeah.

LANE: Thanks for taking this time--

HUGHES: Good to see you.

LANE: --it's a pleasure to--

HUGHES: Thank you.

LANE: --see you--

HUGHES: Enjoyed it.

LANE: --and we'll see you again soon.

HUGHES: If I think of anything of value, I'll call you.

LANE: Please do.

HUGHES: Okay.

LANE: Bye now.

[End of interview.]

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