SMITH: Okay this is Kim Lady Smith and, let's see here, get this levelright. And today is July 30, 2008 conducting a second interview with Sandy Hatfield at Three Chimneys Farm for the University of Kentucky's project on the horse industry. Okay Sandy, as I told you I listened to our first interview just this morning again and um, so I wanted to, to go back to a couple of things that we talked about the last time we--
SMITH: --got together and one of the things was about the sales. I knowwhen you first came here in 1980-81--
SMITH: --you were at Spendthrift--
SMITH: --in the summer and those were the days of the, the big July--
HATFIELD: --uh oh--
HATFIELD: Yeah it was, I mean it was, it was a event um, you know,everybody dressed up to come out, it was all in the evening, it was, you know, it was like a big gala and uh, you know, a couple of years later the prices got a little crazy, that was the year, guess it was 1:00'82 that the uh, that the horse sold for so much money, the ten million dollar horse that they didn't have the number--
SMITH: --right, right--
HATFIELD: --didn't have enough numbers on the tote board and uh, but itwas, it was an event and that just kinda--I think July's pretty early for a young horse too, you know, it makes more sense really to sell a yearling in September.
SMITH: Oh, okay. Now a lot of these events, these ac-, parties andthings they were happening in the evening at farms versus being at the Keeneland sales.
HATFIELD: Well the sale was at night--
SMITH: --oh okay--
HATFIELD: --was at 7:00 at night.
HATFIELD: Yeah. It wasn't a day sale like the September sale is. Soit's, it was like Saratoga is now.
HATFIELD: Saratoga sells in the evening and it's, it was the same thing.The sale didn't start--you showed horses all day and then you took a couple hour break and then they came back and the sale started at 7:00.at night.
SMITH: Oh, those are long days.
HATFIELD: Yeah, --(laughs)--that was long, yeah, if you were working itwas a long day, you were, if you were, 'cause you were getting there, 2:00you know, 4:30-5:00 in the morning, bathing horses, cleaning stalls, getting horses groomed, and then you'd start showing horses between 8, about 8:00 in the morning and then show horses all day, you usually stopped about 5:00 and then uh.
SMITH: Now during the sales were you working them--
SMITH: --at that--
SMITH: --even the first year?
HATFIELD: Yeah, I worked 1980, I worked at Spendthrift and uh, that wasmy first introduction to Thoroughbreds really at all other than seeing them on TV. But I did work the sale, went out and I, I didn't show horses at that time, that was my first year. So I was a groom and, you know, topped horses off and then the showman took 'em--and most all of them were showmen, most all of them were men that showed the horses and they actually, John Williams brought guys in from Maryland, from up east, from where John was and, that showed horses.
HATFIELD: And uh, they would show the horses and we would, as we broughtthem out of the stall we would pick their feet and make sure that they were, manes and tails were brushed out, they didn't have straw on 'em and then they would, these guys that the, during the sale would take 3:00the horse up to the show ring and hand him over to the person that shows 'em in the sale ring.
HATFIELD: And I remember I was so thrilled because we were really verybusy and Spendthrift at that time was right at the edge of the sale where you walk up
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: They were, we were right there, our barn was and the guy wasbusy and I'm sure, you know, he just needed to get back to the barn, but he let me lead, I took care of a colt and he let me lead my colt back to the barn by myself and I was just so excited that I got to do that and I remember, I try to remember those things as I've gotten older and become a boss, how exciting those little things were that people let you do, um.
SMITH: You need to check it?
HATFIELD: No, I just, you need to move that, it's making a buzz. Um, soI try to remember that, yeah, sometimes it's not exciting to us 'cause we've been through it so many times, but, you know, it is exciting even, it's like in the breeding shed for somebody to take a stallion and to get, and to breed the mare for the first time, you know, it's a lot of adrenaline, I mean, it's really very exciting and those are the things that catch people and get them into the industry too, I think. 4:00
SMITH: That's true, I could imagine that.
HATFIELD: So, and then I came back the next year and here I am. --(laughs)--
SMITH: That's okay. Now you've worked with yearlings a lot in yourcareer so you've been to a lot of sales now, they've changed quite a bit--
SMITH: --over the years. How would you describe the difference betweenthe hay days of the '80s and today?
HATFIELD: Um, well I think it got crazy, it got out of hand in the 80'sand I think we see a little bit of that um, recently with the, you know, seventeen million dollar colt that never started and --(coughs)- -and certainly its been those core people that paid that kind of prices, the, you know, the Ashford's and the Maktoums. But they really propped up a lot of people in the '80's when the market fell out, you know, they were still here, they were still buying horses, they still had money and people sometimes, I think, badmouthed those guys, but if they think about it they're the ones that kept the business going, if it hadn't been for the Maktoums and Coolmore, yeah, there would have been 5:00a lot of people out of work 'cause people--there wouldn't have been a market for those horses, you know, and they say bad things about people coming in and buying land here, but, I mean, how many jobs did, does, the, do the Maktoums support here or Coolmore, you know, the taxes they pay on their land--
SMITH: --and they're pretty good jobs, I mean they--
HATFIELD: --oh, they're wonderful jobs--
SMITH: --they pay well--
HATFIELD: --they're wonderful jobs, but people worry about, you know,the lands going to, you know, it's not owned by an American and it's owned by a foreign investor so. But they do, they do a lot of things and they continue to do a lot of things for the industry.
SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: They contribute a lot of money to things that people don'tknow they contribute to too. A lot of charities, a lot of, you know, a lot of endowments that they give to universities and --
HATFIELD: --um, that, are anonymous--
SMITH: --they invest in the community--
HATFIELD: --yeah, that are anonymous donations, they don't make a bigdeal out of it. Of course, their pocket change is a little different than our pocket change. --(both laugh)--
SMITH: Yeah, a little beyond my--
SMITH: --ability to comprehend.
HATFIELD: Yes it is, definitely, yeah it's hard to comprehend those6:00things.
SMITH: Yeah, that they could pay that much for a horse.
HATFIELD: And then they, it still--I've been doing this a long time andit still amazes me that people pay so much money for a horse that's never had a saddle on its back.
HATFIELD: Never been ridden, nev-, I mean, it's just amazing that peoplepay that, I mean, they're pay-, you know, obviously a lot of its paying for bloodlines and potential, but--
HATFIELD: --but, but still it's crazy to me but hey that's.
SMITH: I think I read somewhere um, Sheikh Maktoum was saying that uh,getting a Native--was it Native Dancer, no wait a minute, Northern Dancer--
HATFIELD: --Northern Dancer--
SMITH: --um, was like collecting art.
HATFIELD: Exact-, yeah, that's--yeah, sure, sure, yeah, yeah. --(laughs)--
SMITH: If you look at it that way.
HATFIELD: Yeah, I wouldn't pay that much for a Picasso either --(bothlaugh)--, but somebody does.
SMITH: Well, now today, we were just talking before we started the, thetape the Fasig-Tipton sale, the numbers were still high, at the high end,--
SMITH: --do you see these same people still helping maintain the7:00industry.
HATFIELD: Oh, I think so, I think so, most definitely. Not so muchmaybe at the Fasig-Tipton sale here but you'll see 'em in Saratoga and you'll see 'em definitely in the first two, two days for sure and then they will leave but um, you know, John Ferguson will stay and they'll have their people here that are buying horses for 'em so they definitely are still one of the top, you know, buyers if not the top buyer in the yearling sales.
SMITH: Okay, so even though the uh, economic outlook is kinda iffythey're still there.
HATFIELD: They are still there yeah, yeah.
SMITH: All right, okay. Um, another thing that, that we talked aboutin our last interview and, and has come up in several interviews I've- -including Mack Miller when I first, my very first interview almost two years ago--uh, the problems with the sales when it comes to ethical behavior. Um, I don't know how illegal the activities actually were, but getting commissions on selling horses and buying horses, was a 8:00little bit off. Now it seemed to be more prominent in the '70's and '80's than today is that?
HATFIELD: I think so, I mean, when I was at, at Calumet, you know, theywent, when a lot of that became public record um--
HATFIELD: --the things that were being done, one of the things that theyreally-- [buzzer rings]--
SMITH: I'll stop.
[Pause in recording.]
HATFIELD: I forgot what I was saying.
SMITH: I'll get you back, I took notes, lets see we're recording again,yes. Oh, we were talking about the sales and uh, the problems with uh, some of the ethical issues.
HATFIELD: Oh, right, anyway one of the things that they really slammedum, Calumet for was that J.T. was getting a commission from buying a horse and selling the same horse, I mean, he'd get commissions both ways, he'd get commission from the seller and a commission from the buyer which is basically unethical, whether it is unlawful or not--
HATFIELD: --I don't know. You know, and certainly there were some9:00issues with steroids and that kind of thing um, with the horses. And I think people are less likely to do that now um, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of surgeries on the horses to correct a, you know, an issue but almost all those are, are declared now--
HATFIELD: --you know, the, the x-rays are there, they didn't have a, arepository where you had all the x-rays, each person would have to pay for having their horse x-rayed if they were interested so. I mean the Maktoum's if they were interested in twenty horses they'd have to have twenty sets of x-rays taken
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: There wasn't a repository where you could go and have yourveterinarian look at those, those x-rays. Um, obviously when scoping became a big thing, you know, you have to do that and. But it's, I think it's changed a lot, I think people are, people got to the point where they wouldn't buy horses from people because they knew when they took the horse home, you know, in two days it wasn't gonna be the same horse they bought--
HATFIELD: --you know, their ankles were blowing up, or their knees wereblowing up or--
SMITH: --so certain people would get a reputation.
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah, so, and people that, like Mr. Clay that didn't10:00have that reputation that was always very straight forward and, and, you know, he was very honest, I think that's why he's gone on and done so well.
SMITH: Um-hm. Trust matters.
HATFIELD: Yeah, I think it does and I think the, you know, maybe theolder you get the, the more it matters. And people know, you know, that what Mr. Clay tells them is the truth or what people they hear at the sale from the people are true. Mr., Robert has always said that anybody can walk into any barn and ask any groom any question--
HATFIELD: --because it doesn't matter, you don't have to, you don't haveto worry about it cause you're, you're telling the truth.
SMITH: Um-hm. I'm gonna follow that, that line of. of thinking for afew minutes--Mr. Clay does have a very strong reputation for integrity. I was reading an article the other day that they referred to him as the Felix Unger --(both laugh)--of the horse industry. Um, what is it, what makes that stand out so much in this industry, why is that? 11:00
HATFIELD: You, you know, I just, I mean people don't always do thingsthat are underhanded or illegal, but when, when their bottom line is the most important thing to them you're, you're libel to do things that aren't, that you shouldn't do and even though certainly, you know, meeting the bottom line and making a profit is important to us--this is where Mr. Clay makes his living and my, me too. Um, you know, I think honesty is more important to him and being ethical and we are in meetings all the time and, and, he talks about that--
HATFIELD: --that, you know, it's, it's much more important to be honestand forthright than to make an extra buck or a quick buck because what goes around comes around, you know, that's what my dad always told me--
HATFIELD: --you know, no matter whether you see it or not if somebodydoes something that's not right it'll come back to 'em--
HATFIELD: --and I think it's very true.
SMITH: Well it's a philosophy that seems to have worked well for Three,Three Chimneys.
HATFIELD: Oh, I think it has, I think it has and I, you know, we have a12:00lot of places in this town and, and definitely Mr. Clay is, is one of the places that I'd always wanted to work.
SMITH: Yeah, I think in the last interview you said that Three Chimneyswas the only other farm you'd have left Gainsborough for
HATFIELD: Yep. Yes.
SMITH: And that's why?
HATFIELD: I think that's one, the main reasons why, I mean, I, it'sa great place to work, they're great people, Dan is a great person, Robert's a great person, you know, I've heard nothing but good things about them and there's a lot of places that you can work, not because they're not, you know, unethical or dishonest, but there's also people that you have to work with everyday that might not be the kind of people that you want to work for or you, you know you have a different, different philosophies or different personalities.
HATFIELD: Um, but I knew Dan and I knew Robert and I knew Robert's wife,she and I are on the board of Big Brothers and Big Sisters together at that time and I, I knew that they were good people.
SMITH: Now how did you meet Dan? -------------(??)
HATFIELD: I, you, you know everybody in the industry, I mean, you13:00certainly knew who he was because of Three Chimneys. And he and I really made the biggest connection when I went to work for W. T. Young at Overbrook and--when it was W. T. Young Farm--and when the manager left and Melvin Cinnamon came to Overbrook, I was the first woman that had ever worked for Melvin and Dan was, had worked for Melvin at Calumet. So it was, we kinda became closer friends at that time just cause we had that in common and he realized how, how interesting it was that Melvin finally had a woman that was working for him --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Yeah I think you told me that uh, Melvin had told Dan not tohire women.
HATFIELD: Yeah, exactly
SMITH: And, and, now what again was his reasoning?
HATFIELD: You know, women aren't supposed to work with horses. Womenaren't, you know, women will just cause trouble and, you know, women are always, you know, looking for one thing and, I mean, Melvin had a different, different view of it, and uh, it was, I mean, I, I probably said that the first time we talked, I mean, one of the greatest 14:00compliments to me as a horse person was when Melvin left Overbrook Farm he told me when he found a, a, you know, a place that he was gonna be that he wanted me to come work for him and for, to have Melvin Cinnamon say that to a woman was, was, you know, I thought quite impressive--
HATFIELD: --and really is something that I'm very proud of.
SMITH: Um-hm. You know, I have heard that from people who have workedwith women over the years they have--they might have been uh, hesitant at first, but are not so much now.
SMITH: They, they appreciate their hard work.
HATFIELD: Right. Yes, yeah, I mean the work ethic is, is very importantand I think a lot of women have--well, a lot of men do too--
HATFIELD: --but I think women have a connection with horses.
SMITH: Now I have uh, heard that from a num-, a number of people, why doyou think that is?
HATFIELD: I don't know, you know, whether it's the motherly instinct orwhether it's the second, you know, sense that women have about things. Um, women don't have to be macho, they don't have to prove themselves 15:00in that way. You know, a lot of people are, you know they're big animals and you gotta, you know, man handle 'em and really, I mean, it's much more about finesse handling a horse than it is about brute strength.
HATFIELD: And women are very dedicated and very loving, you know, withfoals or yearlings and--
HATFIELD: --um, you know, it's just a personal opinion but, you know,you can look now, you know, there's a lot of women that work with horses and you look at the incoming vet students--
HATFIELD: --you know, the majority of them are women.
SMITH: Right, right.
SMITH: Well, now I'll put this back on you, when I was here last timeum, there was a young woman that came in and you told me that she was the first female you had hired to work in the stallion barn--
SMITH: --now what took so long?
HATFIELD: Well I'd worked with other females, I mean, there were peoplethat were hired at, at Gainsborough um, girl by the name of Heather and a girl by the name of Lisa that helped me in the stallion barn, but I didn't hire them they were already there. You know it's, it is very 16:00difficult to find a girl that wants to work with stallions, there're not very many of 'em because it is a, a dangerous profession um, and a lot of women that want to work with stallions want to baby 'em too much. They want to feed 'em treats, they want to goo-goo on 'em, they want to kiss 'em on the nose and I do, I kiss all mine on, I mean, you know, there's a little bit of that, but a little bit of that goes a long way with a stallion. Pretty soon they're mouthy, if you don't have a carrot or a peppermint and they're trying to bite your fingers off and--
HATFIELD: --so it is hard, and it's hard for a lot of guys to workwith women I think, in the, in the stallion barn I think. You're in a very sexually charged atmosphere and that was one of the things I told Veronica is that, you know, you will be hearing a lot of things that are a little off color not that you need to, you know, take a lot of grief but, you know, you're in a very sexually charged environment and that's part of it--
HATFIELD: --and uh, you know, a lot of women don't like that part of it--17:00
SMITH: But in the last interview you indicated that the men seem tohave accepted defin-, seem to accept you pretty easily in the stallion barn for.
HATFIELD: I think so. I think I've been doing it long enough now thatmost the men that I work with in the stallion barn already know me, know who I am, and know um, what I can do so I think it's easier and it's also easier--well not easier, I mean, I think it was hard for these guys to accept a woman as a boss 'cause that's just--
SMITH: --when you came to Three Chimneys?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. But it worked out fine, you know, um.
SMITH: Did anyone not want to work with you or?
HATFIELD: I mean there's certainly people that aren't here now that werehere when I started, whether that's the reason or not I don't know, they certainly wouldn't, didn't say that to me but --(laughs)--you know, and that happens anywhere you go.
HATFIELD: There's attrition, you know. Things are done differently and,you know, I'm very detail oriented, not a very, not a micro-manager but 18:00I do want things done a certain way and I want the barn to look good, I want the horses to always look good, want the people to look good, and I think what we, what we do down there we're on show all of us, all the horses, all the people, all the time--
HATFIELD: --so it's very important that we present that uh, face tothe public.
SMITH: Um-hm. All right, well, let's take you to when you uh, came toThree Chimneys; you said it was in 2000?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. January of 2000.
SMITH: Now who was the stallion manager before you?
HATFIELD: Wes Lanter.
SMITH: Okay. Now why did he leave?
HATFIELD: He is um, he's gotten a job at Overbrook.
HATFIELD: He's the stallion manager at Overbrook.
SMITH: Okay. So had he left by the time you came?
HATFIELD: He had, um, Dan Rosenberg called me up and said he was lookingfor someone and did I know someone and I said--(Smith laughs)--I said, "How about me?" and he said, "Well I don't think we can afford you." 19:00And I said, "Well, let's talk about it." So, there were some, certainly concessions I made to come here. But being at Gainsborough for as long as I was they were getting less and less stallions, they really weren't interested in the stallion market, I don't think. Um, they made a big commitment when they bought Hansel.
HATFIELD: Everybody else had been a, a homebred.
HATFIELD: They bought Hansel they paid a lot of money for him and he wasa flop as a stallion um, and--
HATFIELD: No, no he just was not a good sire--
HATFIELD: --he just, his babies just didn't, you know, and it's a hardmarket there's a lot of stallions out there and very few of them make that top, you know, there's only ten that are top ten sire's--
HATFIELD: --out of, you know, four hundred we have standing in thisarea. That's not, you know, counting all the others that stand all over the United States, but they made a significant investment, they were gonna really get into the stallion market and when that happened they lost interest very quickly--
HATFIELD: --in that part of it. So we stood stallions for other people20:00but for--well not for other people, but for Sheikh Hamdan and Sheikh Mohammad. And I knew that if I was gonna be a stallion manager I needed to go some place that was in the stallion market, you know.
SMITH: Now uh, how many stallions did they have at Three Chimneys atthat time?
HATFIELD: At Three Chimneys? The first year I was here they had ten ortwelve and we were full. In 2002, we had fourteen.
SMITH: Oh. So by that time Three Chimneys had a pretty good reputation.
HATFIELD: Oh yeah. I mean, Seattle Slew had been here, you know, Slew ofGold was here, Capote, I mean they had a great reputation for stallions
SMITH: So you saw it as a challenge?
HATFIELD: I, cha-, I don't know if it was a challenge it was a--I leftGainsborough to do more. Um, I loved my job at Gainsborough, I loved the people, I loved knowing all the horses and, you know, getting to do 21:00uh, a little bit of everything but, you know, we had three stallions--
HATFIELD: --you know, four stallions and, and, you know, they, someof 'em weren't breeding very many mares and so it was a, you know, I wanted to do more, I was very bored--
HATFIELD: --over there.
SMITH: All right, so what was it like when you came here--your, yourfirst few weeks, what was it like?
HATFIELD: Oh, well, you know, we were getting, it was getting ready toget started. Um, Silver Charm had just come, getting him ready for the breeding shed, he hadn't--
SMITH: --what time of year did you come?
SMITH: Okay, oh.
HATFIELD: January 1st. Um. So getting him ready, he hadn't covereda mare yet they'd been working with him and hadn't got him to cover a mare yet so that was a, a interesting proposition. He wasn't the easiest horse to breed. But just getting everything organized, getting the people organized, you know, you always had to kind of wait it out and see how everybody works together and then try to implement some 22:00change without ruffling too many feathers.
SMITH: Was there anything you wanted to change immediately or were therejust, anything major?
HATFIELD: No, not that I remember, I mean, you know, other than doingsome cleaning. --(both laugh)--Reorganizing things and, and making sure, I mean, one of the things I, you know, water buckets have to be cleaned every day, you know, the waters outside need to be cleaned, when your horse is turned out he doesn't go out with straw or, on him, you know, people, you never know when somebody's gonna come and look at a horse out-, outside and you can explain mud, they just rolled in the mud, but if there's straw in their mane and tail that's just because you were too lazy to get it out. It's different if it's a broodmare, you know, and your, and you've got one person turning out twenty mares or, you know
HATFIELD: You got one guy to three or four horses, you know, they cantake another five minutes and get the straw out of his, you know, mane, make sure his feet are picked.
SMITH: So about how many people actually worked for you in the stallion23:00barn at that time?
HATFIELD: Uh, right now there's seven. I'd say there were probablyclose to that, maybe a few less.
HATFIELD: Um, but it worked out all right. I mean, you know, it's likeI said we had some people that left, that moved on and hired some great people. Shane was here he worked for Wes and uh, he stayed and Tom Wade stayed and Carlos stayed until Seattle Slew left um, but there's always attrition when you go to a new, new position.
SMITH: Oh well, just from what you've told me about the many jobs you'vehad in the industry it seems that people move around.
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah and I think at the, at the lower level, groomslevel it's much easier to move around. Um, I mean, you can find people that have probably worked at, you know, ten, fifteen farms.
HATFIELD: You know, it's like, you know, I moved around betweenSpendthrift, Gainesway, Crescent, Overbrook in a short period of time-- 24:00
HATFIELD: --and then when you went to North Ridge, you know, I was therefor six years, I was at Gainsborough for eight and that's really-- there's very few people like Dan Rosenberg that spends, you know--
HATFIELD: --twenty or thirty years at a place.
SMITH: Um-hm. So, um, you'd mentioned Silver Charm--
SMITH: --had just come here--
SMITH: --and having some problems, what were some of the challenges youhave with stallions. I'm not, when we talked the last time we talked about the danger associated with the mares, but what are some of the issues--and we talked about Seattle Slew and, and uh, his sons having uh, libido problems--
SMITH: --but, uh --(both laugh)--other than libido problems what--
HATFIELD: You know that, libido problem is probably your biggest problemyou're gonna have. It's, it's something you just have to work through, it is very heritable uh, when I first got here I went to Dan and asked him if I could use Capote as a teaser. And he said you know you can as long as it's safe. And we did, we started taking horses outside to 25:00tease mares as they were coming in.
HATFIELD: I think libido's your biggest issue.
SMITH: So if I understand this right Capote wouldn't get excited.
SMITH: But the mares, you'd find out if the mares were in heat.
HATFIELD: Right. Well, you could take him over there, he saw, he sawten mares before his mare was ever, before he ever presented to his mare to be bred
HATFIELD: So you're getting, you're getting him thinking about it--
HATFIELD: --you're getting his blood pumping. That's the same thingJohn Williams did with Seattle Slew when he first started riding him. It was just to get him, get his blood flowing get him, you know, get him warmed up--
HATFIELD: --get him, get him going .
SMITH: So explain that, is that when they were at Spendthrift?
HATFIELD: Um-hm, um-hm.
SMITH: Okay so that was--now I understand you all ride some of thestallions and that wasn't done very much so why did he ride?
HATFIELD: Just to get him, get him in better shape to get his bloodflowing, to get his adrenalin pumping and just, you know, to try to get him, get him ready. I mean, obviously if you're in better shape you're more interested in sexual activity and the same things with uh, true 26:00with some horses. I mean, if they're overweight it hurts their back to breed mares, it hurts their hocks, you know, to rear up and, and breed a mare so the better condition you can have your horse in, the better it is for him physically and mentally.
SMITH: Now how much of it was a challenge, would that have been achallenge say for Seattle Slew who had a very, probably a very large booking?
HATFIELD: He did and he got better as he got older, his libido waspretty good by the time I got here--
HATFIELD: --he really wasn't very much of an issue. I mean, his son SlewO' Gold, Capote, I worked with Seattle Song over at North Ridge, he had a poor libido too and there's a couple of Seattle Slews sons in town that have poor libido. It's just something you learn to work around.
SMITH: Oh, so what was Silver Charms issue?
HATFIELD: You know, I think um, I wasn't here when they first startedworking with him so I don't know what happened, but I think the longer, for the most part the longer that the horse is on a track-- 27:00
HATFIELD: --sometimes the harder it is to let them realize that it'snot a bad thing to get, to show that sexual aggression because they've been, so long, been told no. When they're yearlings and they're at the show you don't want a horse to drop down and show, you know, show his sexual prowess as you're trying to show him.
HATFIELD: You know, so people use water buckets, water, they spray theirpenis with water, they walk 'em around or some people even flip 'em with rags that, you know, as they--
HATFIELD: --and they learn that when they drop down and starts getting--
HATFIELD: --you know, sexually ready that somebody's gonna come overand, and pop their penis with a rag, well that doesn't make them very interested in doing that.
HATFIELD: So I think the longer that a horse is, is away from that,being told no-no-no-no-no, to bring him in and say it's okay.
HATFIELD: And I think you have to be very patient and very quiet andthere's things that you let him do in the very beginning that you might 28:00not let him do later. I mean, there's certain things he can not do, he can't charge, he can't bite, he can't strike at people, but if he wants to, if he is scared, he gets up on the mare sideways--
HATFIELD: --we'll straighten that out later. He gets up without anerection, you know, I certainly don't want him to do that in his second year, but the first time you're in there he's, he's still frightened. He knows he's supposed to do something, but he doesn't know what it is.
HATFIELD: So if they don't have an erection, but they still want tomount the mare at that point that's okay, he's, at least he's getting on the mare.
HATFIELD: Now let's maybe wait and get a little bit, you know, so it'sa very step process and it's very--Dan Rosenberg always said you can't push a rope--
HATFIELD: --and it's very true. You have to wait till they're ready oryou're wasting your time.
SMITH: So how does that um, patience fit in with an owners desire to getthis horse breeding quickly?
HATFIELD: But in the, in January you're not worried about it.29:00
HATFIELD: You're not gonna breed till February.
SMITH: So you're just getting 'em ready.
HATFIELD: You're just getting 'em ready. I mean it's the same thing,you know, Mr. & Mrs. Chapman when we got Smarty Jones. I, I called the Chapmans the day that we bred Smarty the first time that he covered a--it was a test mare, you know, that's what we have, we have mares that we've actually taken their ovaries out that we can bring into heat and they're older mares so we can teach the young horses on. These aren't thor-, these usually aren't Thoroughbred mares, they're not mares that are gonna get pregnant, it's not mares that we're, we're in a hurry to get bred. Um, they're mares that we've taken their ovaries out bring them in chemically--
HATFIELD: --they're quiet, you know, if he gets on her sideways, they'renot gonna care. So I called the Chapman's to tell them that he'd, you know, covered the test mare and, and Mr. Chapman said, "Oh", he said, "I just don't understand." He said, "That is the silliest thing I've ever heard. You had to show him how to do that, doesn't he just know?" He said, "I think that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard of." And I said, "Well Chappy, I won't ask you about your first time if you 30:00don't ask me about mine." And he, "Oh, oh here, here's Pat, okay, I understand now," you know.--(both laugh)--So, you know, we all learn, we're not all, you know.
SMITH: Absolutely, Absolutely.
HATFIELD: We all weren't great lovers the first time.
HATFIELD: So it is just a, it's a, just a--and some of 'em get it rightaway, some of 'em are in there for, for fifteen minutes.
SMITH: Um-hm. Now have you had any um, stallions under your care thathave just not been able to breed?
HATFIELD: Um. War Emblem was here, he quarantined here to go to Japan,but I didn't have anything to do with his problem. Um, so I was not around that, you know, part of his career, but um, really most of the stallions I've been around, like I said other than libido, I've had horses with injuries, Saratoga Six came off the race track he had a, a fractured sesamoid in a front leg and he had uh--I don't know if you 31:00saw Barbaro's leg with a plate and all the screws.
HATFIELD: Saratoga Six had one of those in his front leg so his, hispastern was fused and we, you know, it was very scary at first for him to get up and down--
HATFIELD: --on the mares, we hobbled all the mares, so I've dealt withhorses that have had some physical limitations. Seattle Slew, you know, when he had his neck problem. And older stallions, you know, they get, their backs start bothering 'em and you do things like, you know, bury the mares, you can bury their hind feet, get 'em down lower where he doesn't have to rear up so high.
SMITH: Okay, okay. Now what about the mares, now I know that as you'reworking with stallions, so you're not responsible for the mares, but do you get mares with particular problems?
HATFIELD: Um, sure--
SMITH: --that cause a problem for you in the breeding shed?
HATFIELD: --sure, I mean, you get mares too with they're fresh off theracetrack that have a, A bad leg.
HATFIELD: Or mares that are uh, or maiden mares that have never beenbred before that don't, that are scared, mares that uh, don't show to 32:00the teaser, mares that have torn cervixes, mares that have urethral extensions, mares that have--so there's things and as long as we know those things when they bring 'em to us--
HATFIELD: --it makes my job a whole lot easier to know that. .
SMITH: So how involved are the vets in the breeding operation?
HATFIELD: In my part?
HATFIELD: Very limited.
SMITH: Okay. So by the time they get to you?
HATFIELD: By the time they get to me uh, the mares hopefully havebeen checked, they're ready to be bred. I mean, that's their responsibility--and the, and the mare owner wants them only here once too. They don't want to take them away from their baby, they don't want to breed 'em anymore than they have to, they have to pay the van to take 'em here they have to pay the vet, you know, again to palp her, they have to, you know, it's always a danger to put a mare on a truck and travel her to another farm. Um, and it's always, you're always risking injury, illness--
HATFIELD: --you know, the more times you breed her the more likely she33:00is to get dirty--
HATFIELD: --so, you know, we, we think that the mare's ready. Andthat's why we tease 'em, we make sure they're all in heat--
HATFIELD: --when they come here. Um.
SMITH: Do most farms still do that?
HATFIELD: Tease mares?
HATFIELD: Oh, yeah.
HATFIELD: There are a few that don't, they don't have a--they're smallfarms, they don't have a teaser, they're just going off what the vet says. But most every farm will have a teaser that he--otherwise how do you know whether your mares in heat?
SMITH: Right. Right.
HATFIELD: Otherwise you're checking every mare every day to see if she'sgot a, you know--
HATFIELD: --she's ready to be bred. So, I mean, you know, they take theteaser to every mares stall and she starts showing estrous, that's when they have the vet check her.
HATFIELD: Wouldn't be any reason to check a mare that's not in season so,you know, the--most farms, 97% of 'em tease their mares every morning.
SMITH: Now the stallions, are they checked over by a vet on any kind ofregular basis or?
HATFIELD: We do um, I take morphologies from the stallion's semen once34:00a week and Kathy looks at it here in the vet lab. So she's looking at morphologically normal sperm um--out of a hundred how many of them are normal, how many of them have droplets, how many of them have crooked tails, how many of 'em have bent tails, how many of 'em are, don't have tails at all, how many have bad acrosomes, how many--so we're making a, making a scale and um --(pause)--if you look right here she gives me a chart.
SMITH: Oh, oh. Hmm.
HATFIELD: We do that once a week. We do cultures, stallion culturesevery two weeks.
HATFIELD: Um, we collect the stallions at the beginning of the year,most of them--that was another interesting thing, we'd usually do the older horses and any new horse we'd do a semen evaluation, we actually use those test mares again and actually collect it in an artificial vagina they, what they use in Quarter horse business or Paint horse 35:00business to collect the horse--
HATFIELD: --to, to freeze and ship the semen. You do that same procedureand then we do analysis on the, on the sperm. How much volume, how many sperm per cc, how many--so you're doing that whole evaluation.
SMITH: So you're really keeping up with just how fertile they are.
SMITH: Hmm, hmm. At what age generally do the horses start being less,the stallions?
HATFIELD: Less fertile?
HATFIELD: At, usually in the twe-, in their twenties you see a dropoff, in their early twenties. Some horses, I mean Seattle Slew was an exemption, you know, he was saddling mares at twenty-seven. Mr. Prospecter or Danzig, some of those horses even Storm Cat until this past year was, was really good. Excuse me--but you can definitely see a down turn as they, as they age into their, usually in their early twenties.
SMITH: Okay, okay. Hmm. Well um, lets talk about Seattle Slew, now, so36:00he was, he was the, he was the champion here when you came. Who else was here when you came? Seattle Slew, Capote?
HATFIELD: Um, he was here, Capote, Wild Again, Miesque's Son, JoyeuxDanseur, Slew o' Gold, Silver Charm, Atticus.
SMITH: Did you have Dynaformer?
HATFIELD: Dynaformer, Rahy
SMITH: Okay. That's a big roster.
HATFIELD: I think we had, I think we had twelve stallions the first yearI was here.
SMITH: Now was Seattle Slew still the highest priced at that point.
HATFIELD: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: He was.
SMITH: What was he going for then? Do you know?
HATFIELD: You know, I think that first year um, I want to say 150-175-200, um, it got more later on, probably the last year he bred simply because the limited, the book was so limited.
HATFIELD: But I hadn't been here, I don't know, maybe two or three weekswhen the rider brought Seattle Slew up and said he's not traveling well and uh, that's when we noticed that his equilibrium was off and uh-- 37:00
SMITH: --so he was still being ridden--
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And that's when we had the vets come in and check himand ended up that he did have a compressed spinal cord.
HATFIELD: We bred him that first year before the surg-,--we didn't dosurgery that year um, but we did the surgery the end of that breeding season, the first surgery.
SMITH: How complicated was it to breed him when he had the compressed?
HATFIELD: Um, their equilibrium's really off and he actually--theyinjected the facets in his neck through the first year, they would have um, Dr. Barry Grant come from California to inject the facets in his neck um, to relieve some of the pressure uh--but he would actually walk like a crab, he would walk at a, at a, almost in a U shape. Now it was very interesting that he would walk that way and then he would straighten up and then he would reverse and go the other way. So it got to the point where, I don't know ---------(??)--I don't know if you've seen a breeding session, but-- 38:00
HATFIELD: --there's five people that work in the breeding shed. There'sone that holds the mare, one that brings the stallion in, one that uh, puts the mares left front leg up um, so she does-, can't kick, or doesn't kick as hard during the breeding process, there's one person on the off side um, of the mare holding her tail out of the way and actually help make, supporting the stallion during the breeding process and then there's a person that enters the stallion into the mare and makes sure that he ejaculates and gets the dismount sample that we look at. Um, it got to the point that he, he would go so far the other way that you would actually have to enter him from the other side.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: Um, which is very strange when you've been doing it for, youknow, ten years the other way --(both laugh)--but we made it through and he, he really had a pretty good fertility that year uh, it was uh.
SMITH: Do you remember how many mares he was bred to?
HATFIELD: No, I don't, I can, you know, I can look it up--
HATFIELD: --but I don't remember off hand. Um, it was still a very39:00limited number
HATFIELD: And then he had surgery after that.
SMITH: Now was the surgery done here?
HATFIELD: It was done at Rood & Riddle, although they did bring BarryGrant down and Dr. Ran-, Norm Rantanen came and they brought their whole crew actually from U. C. Davis down to do the surgery.
HATFIELD: They did it at Rood & Riddle, but um, they did have theirteam, they had the anesthesiologist from Ohio State come down.
SMITH: Now who would have, who was Slew's uh, vet normally?
HATFIELD: Dr. Morehead.
HATFIELD: But Dr. Morehead's not a surgeon.
SMITH: Okay, okay, okay. Um, so how, how did the surgery go?
HATFIELD: It, it went, it went well um, they put two what they callbaskets in um, in their neck, it stabilizes their neck and they actually use bone marrow from their hip to fill that basket and then that um, goes, calcifies around that place so it, it's like this around their spinal cord.
HATFIELD: So it, it keeps the, the, that part stable. And uh, he had40:00that basket put in and then two years later he had another basket put in.
SMITH: Okay, so the first one worked well but wasn't?
HATFIELD: It did and, and it certainly helped, um, he was never turnedout in a paddock again. Um, he was hand walked, Tom hand walked him and grazed him, but was never um, turned in, loose in a paddock again.
HATFIELD: Afraid of him hurting himself, you know, running stumbling,his still, equilibrium still wasn't very good so.
SMITH: How did he react to all that.
HATFIELD: Uh, you know, I think he handled it pretty well uh, all thingsconsidered, I think for the most part he knew that we were all trying to help him and the second time we did surgery, or the first time we actually got a sling and put him in the sling and hung the sling from the rafters down in the barn so he could, could get used to being lifted up and having that weight on him. That was one thing that we really um, was important because most of the time when a horse hurts 41:00himself he wakes up and he's hanging in a sling and he doesn't know what's happening or what it's about. I mean Ruffian was a perfect example. Um, Alydar was another example when he broke his leg, I mean he just was, he, you know, that's not, they're not meant to be hung from the ceiling. --(both laugh)-- You know, Barbaro was the exception that accepted it so well. Um, but we did that and we would go in there, you know, two and three times a day and, you know, tighten it up a little more and synch it up a little more so he could get used to it. Was a, was a long process of trying to think of everything we could think of um--
HATFIELD: --so he'd be comfortable.
SMITH: Now was he still in the main stallion barn at that time?
HATFIELD: He was in the two stall barn.
HATFIELD: Yeah. We moved him out of the main stallion barn. The firstyear he was in, stayed in the main stallion barn um, but then when we were doing the surgery we moved him out of there to keep him away from the public, you know, with the tours and everything and to keep him out of that.
SMITH: Okay, so he was off-limits on the tours at that point?
HATFIELD: Um-hm, um-hm.42:00
SMITH: Now was he a pretty, what kind, what was his temperament at thattime when you came here?
HATFIELD: He uh, --(laughs)--he, he's not a very loving horse um, hehad a nasty streak. Uh, he very much, he and Tom Wade were uh, bonded. Tom Wade was basically the only person that took care of him a whole lot uh, he knew Tom, Tom knew him. He could--
SMITH: --Had Tom been with him a long time?
HATFIELD: Tom, Tom had been with him since Spendthrift. He took care ofhim at Spendthrift and when they brought the horse over here the story is that they told Tom that if he got on that truck and left Spendthrift that he didn't have a job and, you know, Robert Clay's message was well you've got a job when you get off the van at the other end. So he, he took care of Seattle Slew for twenty years.
SMITH: Hmm. That is a long time.
HATFIELD: Yes, it is a very long time.43:00
SMITH: So he was good for Mr. Wade, Tom Wade?
HATFIELD: Yeah, for the most part, I mean he was still a jerk, I mean,the horse was a jerk, but, you know, Tom knew him and he knew Tom and it wasn't like they were, you know--
HATFIELD: --best friends but they understood each other and--
SMITH: Hmm. Now did Tom work with any other horses?
HATFIELD: He did, he rubbed, when they were in the main barn he rubbed astring of horses, he took care of Silver Charm and then when they moved over there --(coughs)--he just took care of Slew.
HATFIELD: And at one point we moved Slew o' Gold in there to give um,Seattle Slew company.
SMITH: Yeah, that's his, one of his son's or grand-?
HATFIELD: One of his sons, uh-huh--
HATFIELD: --sons, his first, out of his first crop.
SMITH: Okay and that was the first horse here wasn't it--
SMITH: --the first stallion?
HATFIELD: Yep, yep. Slew o' Gold's pretty easy going and nothing muchbothered him so it was, he was a quiet companion.
SMITH: That's probably a good thing.
SMITH: So you got him through the first surgery and he was back in thebreeding barn the next year?
HATFIELD: The next year uh, he didn't cover mares, he covered mares thenext year.
SMITH: It, it was a year wait?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. A year recovery.
SMITH: Okay and how did that go?44:00
HATFIELD: Um, okay. He was um, you know, he still had some problems hestill had some issues, he was still, his equilibrium was still bad , we still had to uh, get the mares to stand still, we tranquilized all of his mares um, to get them to stand still. Bred a, bred a very limited book. I think he only bred twenty mares that year.
SMITH: Okay, did they all go into foal?
HATFIELD: No, but he was, his fertility was very good.
HATFIELD: His fertility was always very good, yeah. Um, Seattle Slew'ssons, fertility is not usually an issue it's usually a libido issue, but he had, he had good fertility.
SMITH: Hmm. And what happened next with him?
HATFIELD: The next thing we did after that breeding season and I'mnot sure we even got all the way through that breeding season, um, he started getting, having more and more problems and they went in and did another surgery with another basket in a different place on his neck.
SMITH: So it was the same kind of surgery just a different--?
HATFIELD: Same kind of surgery just in a different place. And when theydo it they have to go through the front of his neck.
HATFIELD: Um, so it's a, it's a, it's a interesting, very interestingsurgery and very complicated and they say when you're dealing with spinal cord it always is, but um.
SMITH: Now if they hadn't done that, was it a life threatening problemor was it just a?
HATFIELD: I, I mean sooner or later sure, but, I mean, we had Capotehere who had the same sort of problem. Um, we did radiograph his neck, he did have compress-, compressed spinal cord , we did what we call miliogram.
HATFIELD: And his owners decided that, he was twenty, and they decideduh, twenty-twenty one, they decided at that age that they weren't going to put him through the surgery. And he was retired and, and we turned him out and he, you know, he came up every day like all the rest of the horses, but he didn't breed mares anymore and he lived another four years.
SMITH: Okay, okay. But Seattle Slew, they wanted to keep breeding?
HATFIELD: Yeah, and, you know, the Taylors said that they thought thatit would help his quality of life.
SMITH: And how old was he at that point?46:00
HATFIELD: Oh, in his--
HATFIELD: --early twenties.
SMITH: Okay, okay.
SMITH: All right. So the second surgery was he, did he breed after that?
HATFIELD: He uh, he left here after that. He went to Hill 'n' Daleafter that.
HATFIELD: That next year uh, during that, that year we had startedbreeding horses and uh, they moved him on April the1st. Actually it was really funny that Ray Paulick, who was the editor of the Blood Horse, when it came out that we moved him, Ray Paulick called Margaret and asked her if it was an April Fool's joke. Um, and he died May the 7th. He was at Hill 'n' Dale for thirty-seven days.
SMITH: Hmm. Did Tom Wade go with him?
HATFIELD: Oh, yes. Tom Wade went with him and there was another groomhere that went with him.
HATFIELD: --went with him. It was very sad, it was a very sad day itwas um, I mean, the horse was ill um, he was recovering from surgery 47:00and it was a sad, sad day for everybody to see him get on a van and leave here after, after being here for seventeen years.
SMITH: Yeah I, I can imagine that. Sad for the horse too.
HATFIELD: It was sad for the horse, I think it was, I mean certainlyhe, he knew Tom and he knew the Taylors, but it was a different barn, different surroundings, he wasn't in the same place he'd always been. Um, moving a horse of that age is very stressful even in good circumstances.
SMITH: Now how old was he when he died? Twenty-seven-
HATFIELD: --twenty-seven or twenty-eight.
HATFIELD: So it was, it was sad.
SMITH: Um, so when we lost Seattle Slew who was here then, who was the,who were still here as stallions at that point?
HATFIELD: Oh. You know, I'd have to get a stallion book out, but um. Imean, Silver Charm was still here, Dynaformer, Capote, then we'd um, I 48:00think maybe Miesque's Son had gone on, we had fewer stallions then we, than we had had.
SMITH: Who was your best stallion at that point?
HATFIELD: Probably Rahy.
SMITH: Now how many of your stallions just in general um, over the yearshere at Three Chimneys are owned in partnership, are any of 'em owned outright by Three Chimneys, syndicated, what's the?
HATFIELD: The, probably the horse that we own the most of right now isRahy, we own half of Rahy with um, Gainsborough, with Sheikh Maktoum.
HATFIELD: Some of the horses we own part, pieces of, some of the horseswe don't own any of.
SMITH: Okay, they just pay you to keep them here and breed them.
HATFIELD: --(swallows)--And we get what we call, it's called breedingrights that we can sell those or breed our own mares to 'em.
HATFIELD: And we've also started a stallion fund and some of the horsesare owned by, the stallion fund may own seven shares or a quarter of the horse or something like that. Which is a group of people that 49:00come in and they invest in this, in this fund and out of that fund we buy stallions.
SMITH: Okay. Sounds complicated.
HATFIELD: It is. --(both laugh)--
SMITH: Does um, when you have a stallion here I assume that with eachstallion there's a different kind of a contract--
SMITH: --with the owners, now are there certain things Three Chimneysinsists upon in terms of making sure they have some--how the animal will be cared for and those kinds of things?
HATFIELD: I, well I mean we're the syndicate and the stallionmanagers for the most part so the daily care of the horses are our responsibility.
SMITH: It's up to you.
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And we, we limit our horses' book um, you know,between 110-120 so we're not breeding 130-180-190-200 mares. Um, Mr. Clay really believes that that's not only bad for the horse, but you're saturating the market.
HATFIELD: So we don't routinely show like Coolmore, Ashford does, a lot50:00of farms routinely move all their horses to, to the southern hemisphere breeding season, to Australia, New Zealand, Brazil, Chili. We have done it in the past, we did it again this year for the first time in a long time, but its on an individual basis. We have to have a, you know, feel good about the farm he's going to, have some control on how many mares that he's being bred to, how many covers he has 'cause the seasons are shorter down there so, you know, it's, it's an X number of mares or Y number of covers which ever comes first.
HATFIELD: And what they do basically they lease that horse from us withthese restrictions for southern hemisphere breeding.
HATFIELD: And most of the time the stallions that we get here are arelationship um, just like the Chapman's, they kept part of Smarty Jones. The, the people that want to sell their horses outright, we don't have as deep of pockets as some of the other horses and other farms and we don't routinely ship horses to be bred out of the country so, you know, obviously Sheikh Mak-, the Maktoum family can spend a lot 51:00more money on a horse than we can because we have to be able to recoup our money. So if somebody just wants to sell a horse outright, we're probably not gonna get the horse as was the case with Fusaichi Pegasus and Street Sense, those horses were, we were probably the second horse underneath those people.
HATFIELD: Fusaichi Pegasus went to Coolmore, Street Sense went toDarley, and they bought those horses outright.
SMITH: Right. Okay, okay. Oh, you need to, it's after three you haveto do something.
HATFIELD: Okay. Hello [answers phone]
SMITH: Okay, um, well I have to ask you about getting Smarty Jones. Youwere, were here when that deal was done, so how did that change things?
HATFIELD: Ah well, we've always done public tours and that wasdefinitely a relationship uh, decision the Chapman's made. They wanted 52:00to continue to own part of the horse and have some um, control over what happened--they didn't want him to be bred to more than X number of mares, they didn't want him to shuttle, they wanted him to be available to the public um, to visit him. And every farm that I think they talked to said we will do that, but we're the only farm that had always done it. We'd always been open to the public, we'd always let people in to see horses, be it Seattle Slew or Silver Charm. Robert feels that that's very important, that we let the public in, um--you know, the two dollar betters what keeps our business going and, you know, the more people we can get interested, involved the better off we all are. And people drive by here and say they're really pretty, but they don't understand all the work that goes into it.
HATFIELD: So and again, I mean, we were the, and its, its very true, Imean, Dan Rosenberg said it--it's like the star high school basketball player and there they are at home and, you know, Tubby Smith and Rick 53:00Pitino and, and, you know, all the good college coaches, Coach Kay, you know, they're all there in your living room one at a time coming in telling your parents why your son should come to our college. And it's the same way when they're, you, they're looking for a stallion. You know, there's maybe ten or twelve stallions that you really look at, and, you know, conformation, pedigree, and race record. And some of those, you know, maybe four of those horses you already know-- they're owned by the Maktoum's or they're owned by Juddmonte, they're owned by Coolmore, they're owned by Lane's End and, you know, they're already going somewhere. And there's those that don't maybe have the conformation or the pedigree that you want. And there's some that people are just looking to sell to the highest bidder, which we talked about before, for us that's usually not the horses we get 'cause we--it helps now with the Stallion Fund that we have cash readily available but um, you know, we just don't have as deep of pockets as some of the 54:00others so it really has to be a relationship. And when Robert and, went, and Dan and Mark went to talk to Roy and Pat Chapman, really, everything they wanted to do lined up with what we already do. And they wanted to be involved, they wanted to still retain part of the horse and, and even, we were the first ones there and I think--she was here not very long ago and I think she said they talked to either six or eight other farms that came in and did the same pitch that we did and she said, you know, it was just, they, she knew, she said," I almost didn't want to talk to anybody else after I talked to Robert." But she said, "I knew that I had to," but, she said, "this was the best place for him," and she, you know, she says, "I'm so glad we moved him here."
SMITH: Now he's been here three years?
HATFIELD: Got two year olds this year.
SMITH: That's right. I've read about them.
HATFIELD: Start, bred his first season in 2005.
SMITH: And he's having some, they're having some success.
HATFIELD: Yes. He's had, I think five starters now and two winners.
HATFIELD: So, you know, it, it's with any horse and one thing about this55:00business and now people are very fickle and if you don't have good two year old winners, you know, it takes a long time for your name to get back up there.
SMITH: So now that he has does that increase?
HATFIELD: Well, you know, we're still a long way from the, February the15th, into the breeding season so we'll have to wait and see how the rest of the, you know, year goes and how he does and.
SMITH: Has he been a pretty--what's his temperament like?
HATFIELD: Uh, he's pretty much a prima donna. He is, very much, it'sall about Smarty Jones. --(Smith laughs)-- Um, he handled it all very well. We ask him to do a lot um, you know. I think there's been, other than Christmas Day um, there's somebody here almost every day of the year to see him. Derby, I mean Derby, Thanksgiving, people, you know, people come to see him and it's amazing how many people still plan their vacations around coming to see Smarty Jones. Um, you know, 56:00it's been four years since he won the Kentucky Derby, but that whole connection with, you know, his trainer getting killed, with John's service, with Stewart Elliott, with the Chapman's um, the horse getting hurt as a two year old, you know--
HATFIELD: --he fractured his skull. All those things uh, really madehim such a, a--people loved him and identified with him as, you know, a horse that overcame a lot. And the people overcame a lot, you know, his owners were reformed alcoholics, Stewart Elliott was, they kept Stewart Elliott through the whole Triple Crown even though he wasn't, you know a, one of the top jockeys. So I think that he really touched a lot of people and people still--
HATFIELD: --you know, really uh, think a lot, think a lot of him.
SMITH: Now how has it changed your work as stallion manager to have thisinflux of visitors, it's, it has changed significantly right? 57:00
HATFIELD: It has changed significantly. We probably had um, eight toten thousand visitors a year before Smarty. Um, we've enlarged our office, we've enlarged our parking lot, we've hired a, a tour person, and really, we always did tours and the tours aren't the hard part its, now it's the number of emails we get and the number of phone calls we get. Ann comes in the morning, she came in Monday morning, she had 357 emails of people wanting tours. Um, you know, people are calling, all that, the logistics of scheduling and talking to people, calling people back--
HATFIELD: --emailing people back is the big part, when we get mail, hegets birthday cards, father's day cards and Easter cards and Christmas cards and uh--
SMITH: --now the tours--
SMITH: --the tours are free?
HATFIELD: Tours are free. We do 'em five days a week, Tuesday throughSaturday. Um, we don't do 'em during the sales. Before Smarty we took three months off and we don't do that now, we do them twelve months out of the year.
HATFIELD: Right now the tours, every, all the Saturday tours are booked58:00through the end of November.
SMITH: So even during breeding season?
HATFIELD: We took December through February off, we used to takeDecember, January, and February off--
HATFIELD: --from the tours, but we don't do that anymore.
SMITH: So now that puts you in a position of being something of a publicfigure, an ambassador, a spokesperson, whatever you want to call it.
HATFIELD: Yeah. I, I mean, I think that UM, you know, we used to do thetours and we still obviously do the tours on Saturday, Ann doesn't work on Saturday. Um, and we still do a lot, I try to, you know, Ann lets me know if there's a special group or something that I need to go down and talk to and--I think you do, you become a spokesman not only for Three Chimneys but for the Thoroughbred industry as a whole and Ann is also in that, you know, role.
SMITH: Do you enjoy that?
HATFIELD: I do and I think that's why I like the stallions, I mean, Ilike talking to people, I like showing off our--I love what I do and it's very wonderful for me to be able to tell people that.
HATFIELD: Um, I've definitely done something that most people would59:00not have thought a woman could do and I think that that's real, real important for young women to knowthat if they have something they want to do if they work hard enough they can do it.
HATFIELD: Um, and I do like talking to people, I love sharing my storyand the story of the horses and the industry, how many good things it is.
SMITH: ------------(??). Now let me ask you about Dynaformer --(Hatfield laughs)--, now ever since Barbaro there's that very strong interest in Dynaformer and he's getting a little old?
HATFIELD: He's twenty-three.
HATFIELD: He's twenty-three.
SMITH: He's still breeding.
HATFIELD: Uh-huh, he is. Um, he is probably our most aggressivestallion, he always has been. He was, started out down the road at Nathan Fox's farm. Started his first career out at $3,500. Really's come up the hard way, he was a fairly good race horse, but not a great race horse--
HATFIELD: --and he's basically made it on his own, you know, as he gotbetter, he got better mares and he, you know, moved his mares up. Um, and he's a, he, he's a interesting horse that, you know, you do, some 60:00days he's in a bad mood and you do what you have to do and you, you know, leave him alone. I mean, we handle him differently than we do some of the other horses and um.
SMITH: Um-hm. Now has he gotten more popular in terms of people wantingto breed with him since Barbaro?
HATFIELD: Well, I mean, he was a great sire before Barbaro. He's just,I think more in the public eye.
[Pause in recording.]
SMITH: --(Hatfield laughs)--I know you're working. Okay.
HATFIELD: So I mean, he, Dynaformer's always been a great sire he justbecame more in the public eye.
SMITH: Oh, so it really hasn't changed anything?
HATFIELD: And he was, he was, I mean, his stud fee was $100,000 beforeand it was gonna move up to probably a hundred and a quarter the year Barbaro won the Derby. So it moved up to $150,000.
HATFIELD: So, it wasn't like he was $3,500 and then the next day hewas $150,000.
HATFIELD: It was an incremental thing and he, you know, he had just been61:00coming up the ladder.
SMITH: Okay. Well it sounds like all your stallions have very distinctpersonalities.
HATFIELD: They do and I think that's why I really like working withstallions, you get to know each of 'em individually, there's a lot of puzzles um, to figure out, you know, when you're getting ready to breed 'em, when the mares come in if you've got a tough mare, if you've got a problem mare--
HATFIELD: --if you've got a horse that may have a, may have a problem.Again I like talking to the people, I like, you know, you're real close with your crew 'cause you're around them all the time unlike maybe a broodmare or yearling manager when you've got, you know, hundreds of horses to take care of and you, you go in and see, you know, say hi to everybody, but you don't really have a, a close relationship with them.
SMITH: Now um, one of the things and as I've been reading about ThreeChimneys um, talking about the staff retreats and dif-,--is the management style here different in any significant way from what you experienced before?
HATFIELD: Um, I, I think we're definitely, the managers are more involved62:00in the decision making, but when you have an absentee owner um--
SMITH: --um-hm. Like Sheikh Mohammad.
HATFIELD: Like Sheikh Mohammad, Sheikh Maktoum. Um, even when I workedat North Ridge the Groveses were, were really, they didn't live here they lived in Minnesota. But I think as I become a manager and moved up the ladder obviously your opinion is much more important than when I was just grooming horses. So I think you have to take that into consideration, but I was very limited in the, any decision making at, at Gainsborough um, other than in my little area.
HATFIELD: When we do uh, you know, when we go to Robert's pool houseand we all talk about strategy for the farm and the future, when Case came in and was gonna come to work at the farm we all went over and were in a meeting and talked about how it was gonna change and how we were gonna work it all out. I mean, that's very impressive that Robert 63:00wants to know what we all think.
SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: So, I think that's, that's the big difference. And I don'tknow how Lane's End does it or how Three--
HATFIELD: --Taylor Made does it um, but I, I appreciate beingappreciated.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah.
HATFIELD: And it makes a lot of difference that, you know, you may beable to go somewhere and make more money or work less or, you know--
HATFIELD: --but to me being appreciated and being asked my opinion andactually listened to uh, is important.
SMITH: Has that uh, impacted your own management style?
HATFIELD: Uh, yeah, I mean, I think I've always been a pretty much a,ask peoples opinion, I think I've always been that way. So I think it, maybe this management style just suits me better because that's the way I manage. Even if you're a groom you may see something that I don't 64:00see or you may have an idea that I don't know or I've never thought of or, you know, so lets try it. It's just like with Rahy this year he was having a little trouble staying up on his mares and Oscar said, you know, when we bred so and so at such and such farm we buried his mares. And I thought well we tried that with, with Seattle Slew and it didn't work. Well, this horse has a different breeding style and we did it and we bred him the mares the rest that way the whole year, you know. So, and I don't--I try not to micro-manage, I try not to be in there-- those guys are good enough horseman that they ought to be able to--
HATFIELD: --to tell. I don't run my hand down every horses leg everyday. If I, if I did I don't need people like that working for me I need just somebody, you know--
HATFIELD: --a groom. Um, and I try to mentor, I try to help I thinkif you talk to Shane Glass who's the assistant, my assistant, he will tell you that I've helped him in his people skills 'cause he was sorely lacking in them when I got here. --(both laugh)--Uh, so I think I'm a 65:00good teacher.
SMITH: Hmm. Have you uh, in your mentoring phase uh, or activities,are there many people who have left and gone on and have been helped by your training? You talk about people who you, who were mentors to you.
HATFIELD: I think um, probably the most uh, person that has gone on anddone really well is Billy Drury who is the stallion manager at Adena Springs. Uh, Louise Teater worked with me at North Ridge and she went on to gallop race horses and, and I think maybe, though she didn't become, she didn't work with me in stallions, but we train, we broke horses together and.
HATFIELD: Uh, when I left the training barn to go full time over to thestallion barn at North Ridge I suggested that they let her take over the training barn and, you know, she always second guessed me no matter what I did, it was--oh I didn't feed enough hay, I didn't do this, I didn't do that right, why are you doing this, why are you putting that 66:00bandage on, you know--and it's always easy when you can second guess somebody if you're not the one that has to take the heat for it and when I left I told her that, I said, It's not gonna be as easy as you think it is." And sure enough in about three days she was calling me going, what do I do about this, and how do I handle that, you were so right and I'm so sorry I gave you such a hard time for three years. --(both laugh)--But and that's what I tell people, you know, it's easy when you're not the one that has to make the decision and I try to let those guys make decisions down there, you know, what do you, what kind of bandage do you think we ought a put on.
HATFIELD: Why do you want to put that on, I don't know you guys wantto turn out early today or you wanta, you know. I'm happy to make the decision and I don't have a problem making any decision, but you're never gonna learn if you don't, if you're not able to make decisions and if you have a manager that makes every decisions than how are you ever gonna know what's right or what's wrong.
SMITH: What do you look for in people you hire?
HATFIELD: I just did that, I just hired somebody I hope I made the right67:00decision. --(both laugh)-- Every time I do it I think, second guess myself too. I hired a young man straight out of college to be my night watchman. [phone rings]
[Pause in recording.]
SMITH: That's all right. We were talking about what you look for in uh,hiring people?
HATFIELD: I think the most important thing I look for is somebody thatwants to do it, not, doesn't just want a job 'cause there's a lot of people out there that just want a job. Um, it's like the night watchman, there were a lot of people that just wanted a job and this, obviously they want a job or they wouldn't be here, but I, I look for somebody who's dedicated. I really try to move people up on the farm.
HATFIELD: I mean, I think for the most part the stallion barn is kindalike the, you know, the place the, you know, the people aspire to work, at least they used to be that way when I was a groom. Um, those that are interested obviously. So I try to move people up, there's um, a 68:00couple guys, two or three guys down there, that have moved up either from the broodmares or the yearlings--
HATFIELD: --and that helps because you already know their work ethic--
HATFIELD: --you already know who they are, what, what they, what they'reabout. But I look for people that, that want to work, that get along well with others --(laughs). We are so concentrated down there and you have to work so closely. It's not like you have two people in a twenty stall barn.
HATFIELD: You know, each guy takes care of two horses. So in a sixstall barn there's three guys.
HATFIELD: They have to get along um. And, you know, one bad apple canspoil the whole bunch is very true, --(both laugh)--is very true.
SMITH: Absolutely, absolutely.
HATFIELD: Um, you know, don't hire a jerk, you know
HATFIELD: And the first, you know, I did a lot of--I mean, this isimportant to, to call references--
HATFIELD: --and, and talk to people that worked with 'em and know theirwork ethic. We work a lot. 69:00
HATFIELD: And I need somebody's that not afraid to work. Even thoughthere not taking care of very many horses, you know, we're here till 7:30 at night.
HATFIELD: We come in at 6:30 in the morning. Some of these guys--I workseven days a week during the breeding season. And so does Tony Burton and so does Rick, you know.
HATFIELD: It's, it's part of the lifestyle and that's what I tellpeople, young people that come and are interested in working in the horse business--the, the higher you get up the ladder the more you work it's not the other way around, you know.
HATFIELD: If you want to work out on the farm, if you want to be ahands-on horse manager, you have to be willing to put in the time.
HATFIELD: And that's what people ask me, you know, don't you want tobe a Dan Rosenberg, don't you want to be in the office--and I, I may at one time, but I don't now 'cause I'm not interested in talking on the phone.
HATFIELD: You know, I came and got this job because I love horses and Ilove people.
HATFIELD: I'm a very hands-on person.
SMITH: Oh, an organization that uh, I think you're associated with,70:00at least from everything I've read about you, the Kentucky Equine Management Intern Program--
HATFIELD: --um-hm, um-hm--
SMITH: --as well as Big Brothers--
SMITH: --and Big Sisters, those are the two that came up, but the um,intern program has that been a good?
HATFIELD: It has been. We're still really um, in our infancy, we'vebeen doing it a while, but I think every year we learn something. When I first came to town and Dan Rosenberg too, there were a lot of people that wanted to be managers and there was a lot of people standing in line to get $5 an hour jobs--
HATFIELD: --uh, and the, the influx of the Irish that came over um,those guys are now, almost all of them, are managers somewhere.
SMITH: Were they coming in, in the '80's, early '80's?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. Um-hm. Uh, and, you know, we don't see a lot ofinflux of people that want to be managers. A lot of the Hispanic people uh, are not managers, they want to be a groom or they want to be a foreman, but they don't want to be a manager because they don't like to tell people what to do. And, and it, in Mexico it's very class 71:00oriented and a guy that grew up in Mexico City doesn't want some guy that's uneducated that worked in the country telling him what to do although the guy in the country may be a much better horseman than the guy that worked in the city.
HATFIELD: So that's very difficult to overcome that with the Hispaniccommunity. Uh, so having KEMI, having those kids come in from all over the United States to come and get immersed in this business is really important. I think you can look and I bet 40% of the people are still here, they may not be out on the farms, like Beth who is our uh, accounting person--
HATFIELD: --she was a KEMI graduate.
HATFIELD: So I think it, it's an important thing, I think that fromOkalahoma I didn't know anything about Lexington, Kentucky. Leslie Jack who is our uh, uh, administrative person for KEMI--
HATFIELD: --our coordinator she goes and goes to the universities and72:00talks and, you know, hands out material and, and it lets people know if this is what they want to do, it's a lot of hard work and a lot of the kids that are juniors or seniors or just graduating from college have never had a job--
HATFIELD: --that work, you work it's a six days a week, it's 7-4,it's hot, it's cold, it's tiring, you're mucking stalls, you're not gonna come in and work for six months and be a manager, it's just not happening, you know. And if they come in and they can work hard they can make a living and they can make a good living and they can have a great job.
HATFIELD: And I think that it's been real important for us to show youngpeople that there is a place for them here. And they may not want to be a stallion manager, brood-, maybe they want to work in accounting or they want to work in the Blood-Horse or they want to be a nutritionist, they want to work at McCauley's or Woodford Feed or they want to work for the Blood-Horse or.
SMITH: Is there a need to bring young people into the industry?73:00
HATFIELD: Most definitely.
HATFIELD: Most definitely. And a lot of people ask us with KEMI whydon't we do internships at the Blood-Horse or at those places, but it's Kentucky Equine Farm Management Internship. I don't know anything about working at the Blood-Horse --(both laugh)--and, and, you know, we can certainly after you finish this program go on, but I think even if you work--and Beth made a good point, she came down, they just started a new class and they have um, a week that they go around and go to the different farms and go to the Blood-Horse and go to the Jockey Club and kinda give everybody an idea of what this is all about. Um, and Beth says it certainly helps her to have worked in the barn and know what's going on that, so she can look at those bills and she can say--oh well, yeah, what a, I know what that is and I know why they need it and I know--
HATFIELD: --you know, she has some idea. And I don't think you can be agood manager unless you've mucked stalls.
HATFIELD: You know, you don't know how long it takes, you don't knowwhat it takes, you don't know how long it takes you to groom a horse, 74:00you don't--you can learn a lot of stuff out of a book, but you can't learn how to be a horseman out of a book.
SMITH: Yeah. Yeah.
HATFIELD: So I think it's a great organization and I think we, everyyear we learn and um, there's a lot--we had a young man here for the foaling season--I, he say's, I don't want be, I don't want to work outside, I don't want to work in a barn I, you know, I, this is not what I want to do. Well, he learned that.
HATFIELD: And if he wants to a bloodstock agent he does know what ittakes to be, you know, when he goes and looks at those yearlings or those--
HATFIELD: --foals he knows how hard they worked that morning to get themall cleaned up, to get 'em ready.
HATFIELD: They don't come up looking like that, you know, somebody's,you know, gotten the mud off of 'em or given 'em a bath--
HATFIELD: --or, you know, painted their feet or held them for theblacksmith.
HATFIELD: So I think anything, it's just like any job, you know, themore you know about underneath you the better manager you are.
SMITH: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Hmm. Well, the other organization,Big Brothers Big Sisters does that have any relationship with, with 75:00horses or do you, is this just something you got interested in?
HATFIELD: I got interested in it, you know, you'd always heard of it BigBrothers and Big Sisters and I always thought it was a wonderful thing. I, we don't, my husband and I don't have any children. And it's a great way to give back. When I was at Gainsborough one of the guys that worked there, Jim Petrey, was a Big Brother.
SMITH: Do you need to get that?
HATFIELD: It's the blacksmith.
HATFIELD: It's never ending. --(laughs)--
SMITH: That's the job,
SMITH: As you're telling me. Um, okay, Big Brothers and Big Sisters.
HATFIELD: Anyway, Jim Petrey uh, who worked at Gainsborough had a LittleBrother and he brought him one day and I saw them interacting with each other. So I talked to Jim and got involved and became a Big Sister. Um, and during that time I also started working on, on the Board of Directors and Blythe Clay was on the Board of Directors at that time.
HATFIELD: So that's how I got to be friends with her. And uh, I got76:00more and more involved in the board and realized what a--the best way to change a child's life is a mentor and the best mentoring program in the United States is Big Brothers Big Sisters. It's been proven statistically to help children um, do better in school, to get along better with their peers, their teachers, their parents, they're less likely to use drugs, they're less likely to skip school um, and you, and they're, you know, changing children one at a time is you know you have to start somewhere.
HATFIELD: And uh, I mean I, I've seen it in the children, I've seenit--I now have my second Little Sister, she's, be a senior in high school next year, we've been together for six years. And I'm also the uh, for 2008-2009 I'll be the President of the Board of Directors for Big Brothers Big Sisters of the Bluegrass. So when people tell me they 77:00don't have enough time --(both laugh)--to uh, volunteer uh, it's hard for them to explain that to me.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah. As you were saying that I was thinking how in theworld does she fit that in.
HATFIELD: You know, and when I was--both of the little girls that I wasmatched with were horse crazy. Grace isn't so much anymore, but she certainly knows a lot about horses now. Um, and I bring her out here, you know, and I, during the breeding season, I mean, I go and I pick her up, we go have dinner and I come back here, she comes back to work with me and I take her home. I just had a yard sale Satur-, Friday and Saturday and she was with me all day--
HATFIELD: --both days, we're gonna have another one to finish the restof our stuff and she, you know, --(Smith laughs)--and it's not about spending money on 'em . People always say well I can't afford it, well you don't have to take 'em to Kings Island, take 'em to the park.
SMITH: That's right.
HATFIELD: It's just about spending time with them and, and it's a greatorganization and I think they do great work and those people work very 78:00hard too. Those, those girls and those guys that are the, the match support specialists and the people that are getting the volunteers and, and um, recruiting and fundraising. They work tirelessly; they're working Saturday's at the, at the Bowl for Kids Sake or--
HATFIELD: --at the park or, you know--
HATFIELD: --so. It's a great organization. And we uh, I think we helpa lot of kids.
SMITH: Now it does sound like you uh, um, keep yourself very busy.
HATFIELD: I do. --(laughs)-- Yeah, my husband tells me if I get homeearly I'm home at 6:30 or 7:00 --(both laugh)--. So, I mean, if you look at my desk there's a lot of stuff on it about horses and there's a lot of stuff on it that's not and I'm mostly involved with, involved with the, the uh, uh organization called Life Adventure Center.
SMITH: Okay --------------(??).
HATFIELD: Who is a, a--it started out as the Cleveland Home which is aplace in Versailles that I didn't know anything about as long as I've 79:00lived here until I was um, asked to, to become involved. And it was donated by John Cleveland. It was a home for uh, girls that, orphaned girls that's how it started out in the 18, late 1800's he donated the, the house and donated a large amount of money. And as there are no more orphan girls, I mean, there's no more orphans, you know, there's foster care, there's no more orphanages. It got into state placed girls um, that had, were in trouble--
HATFIELD: --in one way or another. And pretty soon it was going downthe drain. The, the foundation was being sucked dry uh, and we went to private pay, seven or eight years ago. Uh, and most of the girls came from out east, they were, most of them were girls that were adopted. It's amazing how much trouble they have even though you wouldn't think--they now have a loving family, they have a lot of abandonment 80:00issues um, a lot of self esteem issues.
HATFIELD: So a lot of those girls, it's a, it was a lock down facility,
HATFIELD: Um, they have a lot of problems with drugs and alcohol um,self-mutilation, uh, uh, so that was--and we were very good at it but we got to the point where we couldn't get a teacher to come in because they couldn't go to public school.
HATFIELD: Uh, you know, we'd be at a meeting and the phone would ringand the, the administrative assistant had to go because some girl had broken out of her room and she was on the roof.
HATFIELD: So um, in the meantime we'd been donated um, out in thecountry a large farm, about 600 acres. We started doing equine therapy and that's why I got involved.
SMITH: Ah, okay.
HATFIELD: And about five years, almost five years ago, we sold the housedowntown, closed the residential facility and went full time out at the farm. So, now instead of doing uh, we're doing prevention. 81:00
HATFIELD: So, we have uh, we have a high ropes and low ropes course--
HATFIELD: --challenge course, we have a mobile unit that goes out tothe schools that might work with the, a group of kids that are having trouble. You can, they can come to the farm and do the high and low ropes course. Monday they had a farm field day through the 4-H--
HATFIELD: --all the 4-H kids came out. So it's a new, it's pretty neworganization and it's just, we just hired a new executive director and it's just getting, getting rolling. But it's helping kids and adults with their day to day um, issues--
HATFIELD: --through communication and uh.
SMITH: It sounds like a good program.
HATFIELD: It is a, it's a great program, it's a great program, so.
SMITH: Another challenge.
HATFIELD: --(laughs)--Another challenge, yeah, so anyway.
SMITH: Okay, well, you know, I, many of the people I've interviewed, alot of the people in the horse industry give back in ways that I'm not sure people understand so uh, it's good to be able to talk about that 82:00in this as well.
HATFIELD: Yeah. We have a, a Charitable Giving Committee here at ThreeChimneys and I mean, you know, Robert does a lot, you know, we get a lot of letters, we meet maybe quarterly and we, there's a stack of stu- , you know, and you can't give to everything. Oh, okay. Got another one.
[Pause in recording.]
SMITH: questions, that's okay. Okay. Um, I'm gonna take you back touh, issues of being a female in this, in this business.
SMITH: How would you describe the opportunities for females today versuswhen you got started?
HATFIELD: Oh, I think they're much better. Uh, I mean, I think if youwent around you'd see a lot more females, certainly in management issues they are. Although I worked with a, an excellent person, her name was Susan Ballinger and she was a assistant broodmare manager when I was at Spendthrift, she ended up being a broodmare manager at North Ridge. And she was a, a very good horsewoman and uh, she left the business, 83:00you know, she just uh, it was a lot of work and it was a lot of time and, and a lot of hassle and she is a licensed massage therapist down at Hilton Head --(both laugh)--. So, she's playing golf and uh, giving massages. But uh, and as we talked, I mean, I think the influx of women vets have made people realize that women can do it, because it, you know, if you're gonna get a vet, most of them are women.
HATFIELD: So a lot, a lot of women in the industry. Um, I still thinkyour gonna, you've got a lot of hardboots that are, until those are gone, they're not gonna think a woman can do a lot of things.
HATFIELD: Um, stallion work is probably one of 'em and there's stillsome of my contemporaries that I can argue with them until I'm blue in the face that, that a woman can't work with stallions and--
SMITH: --Despite your success?
HATFIELD: Yes. And, you know, it gets to the point where I'm not gonna84:00argue with it. You know, I know, I know I can do it I've been doing it for a long time --(both laugh)--uh, but, but I do think it's easier. But I still think that if you want to do something that's not readily a woman job that you still have to work harder, you still have to give 110% and a guy may only have to give 90. Uh, you have to be willing to be--and I think you do if you want to be in any management position, you've got to be the person that is the go to person. If you've got a sick foal and it's 4:00 and it's time to go home and you've gotta date at 6 you're still gonna have to be the person to say wait I'll, I'll go with that vet and foal to the clinic or I'll stay and give his meds, or I'll, you know, the night watchman doesn't show up, you know, let me go home and change clothes get an hours sleep and I'll be back.
HATFIELD: You know, you still, you still have to put forth the effortand that's true whether you're a man or a woman.
SMITH: Right, but the thinking is that a woman wouldn't do it.
HATFIELD: Right. And I still think its hard and I, and it is hard if,85:00if you're married and have children. You have to have somebody's who is very understanding. I have a very understanding husband. He was in the horse business so he knows how hard it is and he also knows how dedicated I am. But, you know, when you have kids and they're sick and you've got to take them to school or you've got to go pick them up from school or, you know, and you've got the vet there and you're doing the middle of your rounds or you're in the middle of the breeding shed, unless you've got a husband that can back you up, it's pretty hard and, and that's why a lot of women vets, you know, leave the horse industry and go into, you know, small animal.
SMITH: Right, where they can control it better.
SMITH: When you have people negotiating to bring the stallions here isthe fact that you're a woman ever an issue?
HATFIELD: I don't think so um, and I actually think it was a comfortto Roy and Pat Chapman, I know it was to Pat. Um, you know, it's interesting that a lot of people were very taken back that I was, 86:00managed the stallions for an Arab.
SMITH: Right. Right.
HATFIELD: But really Sheikh Maktoum didn't really have much to do with myhiring and I'm sure if it bothered him it would have been easy for him to fire me or have me fired. But I think for the most part that I do a good job, the stallions are well taken care of, if you go down there and you need, look at the horses uh, you know that, that they're well--
HATFIELD: --well looked after, my, the fertility rates are good, there,you know, the horses are good breeders and certainly, you know, if you have a horse that has a fertility problem there's not much I can do about it other than management, you know, management style, I can't make him more, can't make him have more sperm, but I can utilize that sperm better so.
SMITH: Right, right.
HATFIELD: Um, so.
SMITH: When I first met you you'd made a comment about um, how somepeople will come into the barn looking for a manager and just overlook you completely because they don't expect a woman.
HATFIELD: Woman. Yeah.
SMITH: Does that still happen?87:00
HATFIELD: Um, sometimes, yeah. I think that I've been here long enoughand people know who I am now, ------------(??) I still think that's very strange that people know me, but UM, they, it doesn't happen as much as it used to.
HATFIELD: But yeah, they'd walk right past me. That was always a lot offun when they had to come back --(both laugh)--. And, and, you know, sometimes, you know, I talk very frankly about what I do
HATFIELD: And, I mean, I that's what I do.
HATFIELD: And, it's not, sometimes it's not very good dinner conversationtalking about a lot of this if, if people aren't interested--
HATFIELD: --and, and so, and you have to be interested I mean just likeVeronica, you know, she's very interested in all the intricacies and, and, of it.
SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: My husband says I've probably handled more inches of penis88:00than any woman in the entire world. --(both laugh)--
SMITH: That's probably true. And you're right people have to becomfortable listening to that. I think um, Alice Chandler's response about not going into the breeding shed was she didn't want to embarrass the men.
HATFIELD: And I think you have to have guys that, that get over that--
HATFIELD: --that I, that it's all part of it. And, and I guarantee youthat there's not nearly as much trash talk in my breeding shed as there is in a breeding shed with a bunch of men. Because those guys respect me and they still trash talk, I mean.
HATFIELD: Like I said it's a very sex-, sexually charged atmosphere and,and they joke around a lot and they say a lot of stuff, but I guarantee you it's not as nasty as if you go into a breeding shed when it was all men.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah. I can imagine that. --(Hatfield laughs)-- Okay um,there's another thing I've heard a lot about various superstitions. Was there ever any, any superstitions associated with having a woman in the--
HATFIELD: --I don't--89:00
SMITH: --stallion barn?
HATFIELD: I don't think so. There may be that I don't know anythingabout.
SMITH: But no ones told you?
HATFIELD: No, but nobody-, everybody's afraid to tell me --(both laugh)--Uh, no and I think a lot of people thought and still think to this day that a woman during her time would sexually arouse a stallion when, and you couldn't handle him. Which I'm sorry I think it's an amazing amount of bologna because if you took a dog in there that was in heat it wouldn't make any difference to the horse. Uh, but, I think that that's a, it's an old wives tale
HATFIELD: Yeah they ha-, they, the pheromones or whatever they say--
SMITH: --yeah, yeah--
HATFIELD: --but, I mean--
SMITH: You never had any trouble. --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: I never had any trouble no and if you think about it duringyour time of the month it's not when you're fertile anyway.
SMITH: Right, that wouldn't.
HATFIELD: You know, that's not when you're ovulating and that's what'simportant to a, you know, the stallion. 90:00
SMITH: You're putting off the wrong scent anyway.
HATFIELD: Yeah, exactly, putting of the wrong scent anyway. And like Isaid they don't get aroused when an in heat dog comes in there or a, or a giraffe, --(Smith-laughs)--you know, so anyway, its uh, but I don't know of any. I think mostly it was embarrassment and, and because it was, it's a, it can be a very violent--
HATFIELD: --situation, especially if you have a maiden mare in there,I mean, there's a lot of restraint on the mare um, and it, it can look very violent.
SMITH: What is your job in the mating?
HATFIELD: Depends on--what I do mostly I do, I enter and look at thedismount sample, but if we have enough people, I don't do that either. I like to do that, I like to be involved, but if we've got, it makes more sense for me to stand back and watch than--
HATFIELD: Um, and you can't, I, I can't see the whole thing either whenI'm in the middle of it.
HATFIELD: I can't get the big picture, but this year we had fewerstallions and we had, just had enough people to get the job done. 91:00
HATFIELD: Uh, now we do have two people running stallions. One goes andgets while the other ones in the breeding shed and then he may turn one out and then this guy brings it in. So occasionally there was a guy standing there, but he did have a role um, but when we had, when the barns were full and I had a lot of people I watched.
HATFIELD: And when I was at Gainsborough they wanted me to watch, theywanted me to stand back and--
SMITH: --and see how things--
HATFIELD: --even though we didn't have very, even though we didn't havevery many horses we had a lot of people,
SMITH: Okay. --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: And uh, they could afford a lot of people, but this year I hadjust enough people to get the job done with me entering.
SMITH: So you're pleased with your team, where it is now?
HATFIELD: Very pleased and, and this year um, I took two nights off,yep. I, the last couple years I've taken one night off so I get, you know, Shane was in charge on those two nights if something went wrong, you know, he fixed it or I did get a couple phone calls. But, but, you know, he's never gonna be a stallion manager if he can't make some 92:00decisions on his own and he may not do it exactly like I would but, you know, the mare gets bred and she gets home and nobody gets hurt and, you know, you can't be there every second.
SMITH: How longs Shane been with you?
HATFIELD: He's been here since I've been here.
HATFIELD: He was here, actually here a couple years before I was. Hestarted out as a night watchman.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: And night watched the stallions and then worked on theweekends in the barn and then gradually moved up and got into the--
SMITH: --um-hm, -----------(??)--
HATFIELD: --working days and rubbing horses and.
HATFIELD: And he was a, shortly after, I guess I'd been here about ayear, I moved him up into the foreman position and we worked on his people skills and then we moved him on up. And he, he, he's a great guy and he, he is very dedicated to Three Chimneys and we make a very good team.
SMITH: Yeah, yeah, it makes a difference.
HATFIELD: Yep. Yep.
SMITH: Well, let's talk a little bit about the industry in general'cause I know you're pretty passionate about the industry as a whole and not just your job. At uh, of course it may just be because I'm paying more attention, but it seems to me like the industry is at a 93:00pretty critical juncture um, and probably was before Eight Belles, Big Brown and those issues brought things to the public attention a little bit more. What do you see are some of the biggest challenges facing the industry right now?
HATFIELD: I think our biggest industry's the fan base,
HATFIELD: People going to the racetrack. Uh, you go to ChurchillDowns on Derby Day and you can't move, if you go to Churchill Downs on a Wednesday?
HATFIELD: There's not very many people there. If you go to TurfwayPark, there's not very many people there. Uh, I think we, we missed the boat. Uh, NASCAR got a lot--we thought people would always want to go to the races, we don't need to advertise. And you look at the job that NASCAR does?
HATFIELD: Uh, I think we missed the boat; we lost a lot of people toNASCAR.
HATFIELD: Um, they're very much fan oriented. Uh, also they have94:00drivers that are there all the time I think that if we were smart we'd focus more on the jockeys in the public eye.
HATFIELD: You know, very rarely do you have a horse unless he's agelding or Curlin which they can't retire--
HATFIELD: --run much beyond their four year old year. They're too,they're too valuable, uh, you know, you can't insure them for what they're worth, what if they get hurt--
HATFIELD: --you know. Uh, and the jockeys are there for years and yearsand years.
SMITH: Yeah, and they have some pretty interesting stories.
HATFIELD: And they do have some interesting stories and most of them aregood people with a, you know, a lot to say, they're very good athletes. Uh, you know, Pat Day, I mean, when you go to Keeneland how many of you bet on Pat Day?
HATFIELD: They bet on Pat Day every race because Pat Day was Kee-, youknow, was Keeneland's jockey and people knew him and they--he signed 95:00autographs and he's very approachable.
HATFIELD: Actually he met my little sister. I mean, he came out and mether and talked to her, shook her hand--
HATFIELD: --and uh, I mean, he's a very wonderful person. I think the,the catastrophic injury problem is a big problem and I think that they were really fast on polytrack, um
SMITH: --too fast--
HATFIELD: --changing, there's a lot less maybe catastrophic injury, butthere's a lot more soft tissue injury. They've completely changed the way that a horse--when they land their foot they don't slide in it, they stick. For California to go ahead and say it's a good idea to change everything to polytrack, they had too, to a synthetic surface I think maybe was a mistake. Uh, --
HATFIELD: --That's a personal opinion, obviously that's what this isall about.
SMITH: Oh, I've heard that from others.
SMITH: I read that.
HATFIELD: And uh, I mean, I think steroids because they've been in the96:00public eye with the bicyclers or the athletes or um, you, the baseball players. Steroids aren't illegal in the Thoroughbred business.
HATFIELD: They're not doing anything illegal giving a horse steroids.Is it good for 'em ,is it bad for 'em, does it make it better, but it's a level playing field. It's not that somebody's trying to hide that they're giving Big Brown steroids. If you, I think if you had looked at the horses in that field--
HATFIELD: --probably three quarters of them had steroids.
HATFIELD: Eight Belles didn't break down because she had, was onsteroids and when they did the autopsy, she wasn't on steroids.
HATFIELD: I think the, the, the, the general perception is, is, is thatthe general public doesn't know.
HATFIELD: And because we don't have a governing body with one voice,I think that's really hard because nobody knows who's gonna say or what they're gonna say or who's supposed to talk about it or who's not supposed to talk about it or.
SMITH: And you get a lot of different opinions out there from industry97:00leaders.
HATFIELD: And they end up talking to, to a trainer that's, you know,shouldn't be talking to anybody.
SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.
SMITH: What do you, in terms of breeding, um, now I know that you're notinto the pedigree--
HATFIELD: --(laughs)--no. Yeah.
SMITH: --you get them into the barn and you, once they're there youbreed 'em and that's that.
SMITH: But uh, have you seen changes in terms of horses that, the typeof horse that is bred to another horse or from your perspective on breeding is there a problem?
HATFIELD: I think you see a lot, I think you see a lot uh, less bone onmost horses. I mean, they're not as stout, they're, Seattle Slew with the, you know, small cannon bones and small pasterns and thick bone, you see a lot more delicate animals come in. Um, you see a lot more horses that come in that are injured. Um, but the type of one horse 98:00being bred to the other, no. I mean what, you know, what they talked about Eight Belles being bred, you know, four by two to Native Dancer or whatever it was. I mean the, Anne looked at that and if you looked at the horses in that field I think six of the horses in that field had closer breedings than Eight Belles did to Native Dancer so, you know--
SMITH: --now Eight Belles was bred here right?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. She was bred here. Um-hm, we own her mother. Um.
SMITH: Three Chimneys owns the mother?
HATFIELD: In partnership with someone else. So.
SMITH: That had to be hard.
HATFIELD: Yeah it was and, you know, but, I mean, she was certainly,the, we know her mother much better than we knew her. I mean she was here, we prepped her for a yearling sale, we sold her.
SMITH: Right. Right.
HATFIELD: You know. --(coughs)-- It's not like she was our back yardpet.
HATFIELD: And that's another misconception sometimes um, with people.99:00Um, so, you know, I can't say that --I think the elective surgeries that we're doing on the horses, the parosteal scrapings, the screws and wires--
HATFIELD: --are, are changing a lot because people don't know what thathorse was predisposed to
HATFIELD: Because that's not really what they would look like if youhadn't done that.
HATFIELD: And I think that's very hard on them, on the industry, I thinkthat's very hard on--
SMITH: --from a breeding prospective--
HATFIELD: --from a breeding prospective.
HATFIELD: It was very, you know, Bob Baffert talked about Real Quietabout how he had had, you know, screws and wires on both legs and so when you watched him walk you didn't know if that was really the way he walked so how do you know what kind of mare to breed him to or what his offspring are gonna do.
HATFIELD: Until you get enough on the ground that, you know, wow he'salways gonna throw a horse that turns out or he's gonna throw an offset knee or--
HATFIELD: --because you don't really know what he looks like.
SMITH: Um-hm. Now uh, Three Chimneys' of course is in the news with100:00Big Brown.
SMITH: And uh, it's far too soon you don't have him I know, this is a,there's controversy surrounding all of that but uh, you excited about getting him
HATFIELD: Very, very excited. And I think that, you know, he's racingthis weekend and I think if he comes back to his form hopefully it will be about Big Brown again and it will be not about Dick Dutrow and not about Michael Iavarone and not about steroids. You know, it'll be about the horse and that's really what it's all about. Um, it's a, and he's a great horse. I mean, you look at all the things he did that no, you know, he's only the fifth undefeated Kentucky Derby winner in history.
HATFIELD: He, he's, nobody's ever won from the twentieth post since 1875or whatever it was. I mean, he's done a lot of things that make him a, a very exceptional racehorse and I think people forgot about that. They were so involved in all the other garbage that they forgot about 101:00what kind of horse he was.
SMITH: And it has, if you don't win the Triple Crown then.
HATFIELD: Yeah, it's a, he's an amazing horse and he has amazing turn offoot. When you saw him pull away from those horses in the Preakness, when you saw all the things that Kent Desormeaux asked him to do that he did willingly--
HATFIELD: --and didn't lose his head about it.
HATFIELD: Uh, I think he's an exceptional athlete.
SMITH: Now if things go as planned he would be here after this year?
HATFIELD: After the Breeders Cup.
SMITH: After the Breeders Cup.
HATFIELD: Um-hm. So he should be here, I'd say the first week inNovember probably.
SMITH: So would you start breeding, I mean, just in a general schedule,I mean, I'm not ---------(??)
HATFIELD: General schedule we won't do anything to him, we'll let himdown for a month or so.
HATFIELD: Um, you have to get fertility insurance in place, you have todo a lot of things before you can start breeding him--
HATFIELD: --and we'd start working with him in December.
SMITH: Okay, okay. Now is he the only other stallion that's uh,scheduled to come in?
HATFIELD: Uh, no, we'll be getting another stallion by the name of Lewis102:00Michael.
SMITH: I don't know him.
HATFIELD: He's primarily a turf horse, he's a, a son of Rahy.
SMITH: Okay, so that, you're gonna have a pretty full--
HATFIELD: --we'll be twelve.
HATFIELD: Be twelve and you never know, we may have a, more, more, youknow --(both laugh)--they're always working, it's always, you know, looking for the next up and coming star so.
SMITH: When's the opportunity, right?
HATFIELD: Right, we still have another, you know, three or four monthsof horse, of racing and Saratoga and Del Mar and, you know, those, Keeneland in October and so you never know what star might come up. And I mean, you know, John Hamilton and Jason Litt and Case and Robert and Lincoln Collins and, they're always looking for the next up and coming young horse. I mean, that's their, that's really their job is to go out there and not only recruit mares to come here, but to, to look for stallion prospects.
SMITH: Um-hm. Well that's what this place was built on right? The ideaof being a stallion, is it a stallion boutique?
HATFIELD: They didn't really stand stallions until Robert had been hereabout ten years before he stood our first stallion. 103:00
SMITH: Okay, okay. Now I'll ask him some of those questions when I,when I see him. --(Hatfield laughs)--Um, I want to take you back to one thing we've uh, didn't talk about and then I'll let you, let you get done here. Uh, vets that you've worked with over the years, now I know that you say that they're not that involved in the stallion barn and of course um, you've got a vet on site here but uh, over the years who are some of the, the vets that you've worked with, that you've?
HATFIELD: You know, I think probably um, a Dr., Dr. Michael Osbornewho worked with me at, at North Ridge was a, was a wonderful person, you know, as far as his vets skills I, I, you know. Um, Dr. Larry Bramlage, Dr. Doug Byers--
HATFIELD: --Dr. Dave Fishback. Uh, you know Larry, --(coughs)--Larry104:00and Doug were both still um, teaching when I first met them and they would come down on special things that somebody had called them in to come down and look at, --(clears throat)--excuse me, and, you know, they're just such, not only are they great veterinarians that they're great people, they're very much--I mean, I was a groom and I would ask them questions and they would be happy to answer and, you know, they were never short, short with me they always were more than happy to help and we're still good friends. I mean, I looked at the resume I gave you and my references are Doug Byers and Larry Bramlage --(both laugh)--. So uh, uh. And Dr. Alex Harthill um, just so happened that he, my husband was working for ABC Sports and we were in interviewing him and I happened to go with my husband, it was at Dr. Harthill's office in Louisville. Went in and he asked me what I was doing and I said well, you know, we lost, North, I was working at North Ridge, but 105:00North Ridge was getting to close, they were selling out and he said, " Well, you know, I think there's a job that might be coming available, let me call about it and I'll have him call you." And two days later I got a call from Calumet.
SMITH: Well that's pretty quick work.
HATFIELD: So, yeah it was very interesting, I mean, and, and reallydidn't know Dr. Harthill very well and just chatting with him that small amount of time--
HATFIELD: --uh, you know, obviously he liked something and it, it openedup a huge door for me.
SMITH: Did you get to know him more after that, did you work?
HATFIELD: A little bit, he would come occasionally, we had a, at Calumetthere was a surgery unit and he would come occasionally and do some surgeries on the race horses or just come by, he and, and J. T. were friends and so I saw him occasionally.
HATFIELD: And Dr. Dave Fishback that does the broodmare work at,at Gainsborough. You know, I worked for a man over there um, Ian Wiedersheim who--
SMITH: How do you spell that because I think you mentioned it last time?106:00
HATFIELD: Its I-A-N and Wiedersheim I'd have to look it up for you
HATFIELD: I can find something that had his name on it.
SMITH: I can do that. But the first name is I-A- N.
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah, you would say Ian but its Ian was how hepronounced it.
HATFIELD: He was pretty tough, but, you know, I never saw Dr. Fishbacklose his temper with him, I never saw him, you know, get upset. I mean Ian would throw things down the isle and he would cuss and scream and tore cabinets off of shelves and, you know, doors off of cabinets and--
SMITH: --my goodness--
HATFIELD: and uh, yeah he was, he was quite an interesting fellow. Hewas very organized, you know, and a good, you know, had a lot of good qualities but, but Dr. Fishback would, you know, never saw him upset. He would come back at night and palp the mares for Zilzal and he's still over there now doing, doing, doing the work and he was there, you know, for a long time he didn't use an ultrasound for, for doing, 107:00looking at follicles and things like that, he would do preg check, but. He's just a wonderful, wonderful man, his wife's going through a second bout of breast cancer right now.
SMITH: Oh, that's tough.
HATFIELD: But he's a, he's a, wonderful veterinarian.
SMITH: Have you seen the veterinarians become more involved in generalin the industry since the 19, the early 80's?
HATFIELD: I think they are, I think with the, you know, the onslaught ofintegrity task force and, you know, medications um, I think they are. Larry Bramlage being the on call veterinarian for, you know, the horse racing I think has really brought the veterinarians to the forefront. And he does such a good job of doing that. And I think they are more involved um, just because, you know, we need some expertise.
HATFIELD: We can't, you know--and people listen to those people thathave those letters behind their names --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Yes they do, yes they do. Okay um, I'm sure there's some stories108:00I haven't asked you and if you think about them um, since I'm gonna be coming back around to do, to do some more interviews with some people around here--
SMITH: --if you think of something. Um, but a couple kinda finalquestions and all your years in working in the industry what accomplishments are you most proud of?
HATFIELD: Oh again, you know, certainly the Melvin Cinnamon one wasgreat to me, the um--and to be a, I think to be a role model for young women is certainly wonderful to, to think about that. I think to see the people that I've worked with do well is also a great thing. Um, professionally certainly, you know, personally being a Big Sister I think is very important, mentoring a young woman and helping her through her, her young life is important. Um, I think being a good person and, and showing that to other people in the industry and out of the industry is, is im-, is important. I mean I, I always, I mean, 109:00I'm a truth teller. People don't ever ask me what I, if, you know, if you don't want to know what I think please don't ask me, you know, --(Smith laughs)--and if you don't want to know the truth don't ask me. Sometimes that gets, people don't like that but that's, you know, that's my nature.
SMITH: Well that's true.
HATFIELD: And, you know, my father always said that, you know.
SMITH: Um-hm. In all the, the choices you, you've made in the industryis there anything you would have done differently?
HATFIELD: Oh I'm sure there was, but you know if I did it I wouldn'tbe where I am. Um, you know, would I have made, liked to go to vet school? Sure, and, but would I be where I am, would I know the people I know, would I, you know, would I be married to Greg. Probably not if I'd done something different, you know, I wouldn't be where I am so I don't regret anything. I think that's a waste of time.
HATFIELD: Um, so, no, I mean, I've worked for some great people, met alot of great people, been around a lot of really good horses and uh, I 110:00wouldn't, I don't think I'd change anything.
SMITH: So I think I may already know the answer since we've talked aboutthis, what have you enjoyed the most?
HATFIELD: Oh gosh, through all the years I mean, you know, I mean, Ilove working with horses. I mean that's why I do what I do. I love being around 'em. Uh, I love the people, I mean, I've made a lot of good friends. I knew absolutely nobody when I moved to Kentucky and, you know, I've made life long friends here.
HATFIELD: I mean, my best friend uh, is in Massachusetts now, doesn'thave anything to do with the horse business. So, I mean, certainly, you know, meeting people and making good friends and, and being around some good horses and, and hopefully helping those horses too--
HATFIELD: --I mean, I think that's important. I'm, my father was a goodhorseman and I think he taught me a lot of good horsemanship skills--
HATFIELD: --and I think that makes a difference, it's not the biggeststrongest person that's always the best horseman.
SMITH: Yeah. --(Hatfield laughs)--Okay, well we'll, we'll end with111:00that then.
SMITH: And thank you. I know this has taken a lot of your time.
[End of interview.]