SMITH: Okay this is Kim Lady Smith and today is July 3rd, right?
SMITH: 2008 and I am interviewing Sandy Hatfield at Three Chimneys Farmfor the oral history project on the horse industry at the University of Kentucky. Okay I'm going to wait until that noise stops.
HATFIELD: Okay. --(laughs)-- Sorry.
SMITH: That's okay, it's, that's fine. Okay.
HATFIELD: There you go.
SMITH: Okay. Sandy if we can start with you just telling me your fullname and when and where you were born.
HATFIELD: My full name is Sandra Louise Hatfield and I was born uh,March the 20th 1958 in Glenwood Springs, Colorado.
SMITH: Colorado, oh okay. What was your maiden name is that?
HATFIELD: That is--
SMITH: --that is your name--
HATFIELD: Hatfield. Yeah.
SMITH: Okay. Okay Colorado. Uh, and tell me about your parents.
HATFIELD: Uh, my parents were both from Oklahoma. Met when they were1:00on, each on vacation with their families and was very interesting. My mother lived Oklahoma City and my father lived in Ponca City which is very northern part of the state. And they fell in love and got married. I'm the baby of three girls. Um, my oldest sister is eight years older than I am and my second sister is six years older than I am.
HATFIELD: Um, they had moved to Colorado about two years before I wasborn. And um, we lived there, my, we lived on a dude ranch--
SMITH: --oh, okay--
HATFIELD: --and my father took people back in the high country to huntand we had horses in our front yard and cabins and um. They divorced when I was almost six and I stayed with my, all three of us stayed with my mother um, in Denver. And then, um, lived with her for awhile and then we went one Christmas to my fathers and um, she sent a note saying 2:00that she couldn't afford to care for us anymore so we lived with my dad and my stepmother. Um, and the next year at Christmas we went to visit my mother and she sent my two sisters back and took me and moved out of state. So um, my sisters and I were separated when I was, was in uh, second grade.
HATFIELD: So, but we um, spent most the summers with my father and mysisters, but being a lot older than I was I was kind of the little hang on kid so.
HATFIELD: But my dad um, worked a number of jobs. He grew up in thegrocery business. His dad was a grocery man but uh, finally bought a farm and started farming which is what he always wanted to do. We ranched and raised Angus cattle and had Quarter horses and wheat and alfalfa hay. So I grew up doing that every summer.
SMITH: Now where was he?
HATFIELD: Ponca City, Oklahoma.
SMITH: Okay, so he was back in Oklahoma?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And my mother at that point was back in Oklahoma too,also.
SMITH: Okay, okay. So you didn't spend a whole lot of time in Colorado,3:00you moved back--
SMITH: --what, when you were 8?
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah.
SMITH: Okay but when you were in Colorado other than maybe when you werein Denver you were also around horses on the farm?
HATFIELD: Um, yeah, once my father had the ranch, bought the ranchactually from my stepmother's father when he retired. Um, I was around Quarters, we had running Quarter horses. And so I grew up in the Quarter horse business. I never really watched any Thoroughbreds except the Kentucky Derby like most people. And didn't really know anything about Thoroughbreds until I came to Lexington.
SMITH: Do you remember some of your first experiences as a child aroundhorses?
HATFIELD: Oh, I mean I rode ever since my father bought me a littletiny western saddle and I probably rode, you know, not for long after I could walk and there's pictures of them taking me back to camp um, on the back of a saddle and I'm in the jeep in a, in a, you know,--
HATFIELD: --crib and so I was always outside when I was growing upbut I did--my mother's not a horse person at all. And um, she was at 4:00the house with my grandmother and a horse stepped on my foot. I was out playing around the horses when I was little and she didn't have any idea even how to pick the horses foot up. And finally the horse, you know, munched another piece of grass and moved on, she took me to the hospital and I guess my bones were so little that it didn't break anything and the ground took the concussion so, but my mother was uh, from then on was frightened of horses and she's, was always frightened of every work, all the work I did with horses.
HATFIELD: But my dad is a great lover of animals and horses and I'm surethat is where I got most of my love of the horse.
SMITH: Um-hm. Now he raised Quarter horses?
HATFIELD: Uh-huh. We did but mostly had running Quarter horses andcattle horses.
HATFIELD: We had a few babies.
SMITH: Okay. So and that's how your dad made his living?
HATFIELD: Um that, uh well, and was also a federal park ranger. Heworked at a big lake called Kaw Lake that was in Oklahoma and went 5:00up into Texas, I mean Kansas. And he uh, drove the boat, so he gave tickets out on the lake.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: Even back then it was hard to make a living as a farmer --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Yes, yes. Even, even in Oklahoma.
HATFIELD: Right. Even in Oklahoma. And they've since sold thatproperty. My father's, and stepmother, are both in their eighties.
HATFIELD: And uh, both, are both retired and sold their last piece ofland a couple years ago. Sold their last 80 acres a couple years ago.
HATFIELD: So. But I got, I was going to school in Still-, Stillwater atOklahoma State. And uh, my sister worked for the uh, Vo-Tech Department and there was a gentleman there by the name of Dr. Jim Rudolph who was doing his doctorial thesis and met my sister. And they were just starting their equine program at Murray State University and he was in charge of the equine program. And so he talked to me and I visited 6:00the college and they offered me a full ride scholastic scholarship to come to Kentucky and go to Murray. So that was, that was how I got into Kentucky. Moved there my junior year, didn't know a soul. Put my Quarter horse mare in the trailer and, and drove out there. And between my junior and senior years in college a friend of mine, Todd Lewis, who was from Louisville said, "Let's go to Lexington and get a horse job." So sure, and I got a job at Spendthrift Farm in 1981--1980.
HATFIELD: And that was my first introduction to the Thoroughbredbusiness, then that was, that was the place to work in the 80's. We, you know, still had the July sale at night. And just fell in love with it. Fell in love with all the horses, all the people.
SMITH: What was your job?
HATFIELD: I was a yearling groom. Took care of four yearlings.
HATFIELD: And we walked, hand walked everything. Um, every morning the7:00whole farm would come and we would walk all the yearlings. Met John Williams who has been a mentor of mine uh, throughout my career. A wonderful, wonderful man taught me a lot. And went back to school, graduated in 1981 and came back and worked at Gainesway, same thing. I groomed yearlings.
SMITH: Okay. I'm going to take you back a little bit.
SMITH: Um, so you got a scholarship to Murray, so you were a goodstudent?
HATFIELD: I was a pretty good student. Yeah, I graduated high schoolwhen I was a junior.
SMITH: Okay, um.
HATFIELD: So laid out a year and um, worked.
SMITH: Did you know, what did you think you wanted to do when you werein high school, what was your plan?
HATFIELD: I don't know if there was one --(laughs)-- it certainly wasn'tworking in the Thoroughbred business --(both laugh)--. Um, you know, I didn't know, I didn't know and then I wanted, thought I wanted to be a vet. I was pre-vet at Oklahoma State.
SMITH: Okay. And when you came to Murray what was your expectation?8:00
HATFIELD: I was pre-vet then also.
HATFIELD: And as, you know, as you know I was paying out-of-statetuition and they, the only school in Kentucky, obviously they don't have a vet school, you had to go to Auburn and there's very few positions. And as I got more into the social scene at Murray State, my grades started slipping a little bit and uh, you know, I decided that maybe that's not what I wanted to do. And after I came and spent the summer at Spendthrift I really wanted to be a yearling manager. That's what I wanted to do when I graduated from college, that was my, that was my goal, was to manage the yearlings. To go to the sales and do all those things that yearling managers do.
SMITH: Now 1980's, early 1980's would that be an unusual job for a woman?
HATFIELD: With yearlings, no not really.
HATFIELD: Not really. My first um, assistant, yearling manager was awoman by the name of Vivian Smith at Spendthrift that summer. And I actually worked for her later on, she was yearling manager at Crescent 9:00Farm. I went there after Gainesway.
SMITH: Okay. All right so--
HATFIELD: --there were a lot of women. Sam Ballenger was the broodmaremanager, one of the broodmare managers at Spendthrift. Aveen Campion was there. There were a lot of women but no, you know, you didn't even think about women working in a stallion barn--
HATFIELD: --back then.
SMITH: Okay. So you spent the summer at Spendthrift and that was yourfirst introduction--
SMITH: --to this area as well?
HATFIELD: Oh yes, yeah. We did come on a field trip and I can'tremember if it was I, when I was a junior or senior at Murray. They brought the, some students up here and I toured some farms, but I think that may have been even when I was a senior.
SMITH: Did you go to the races?
HATFIELD: Hmm, I don't think we did, no.
HATFIELD: No not that summer. It would have been, you know, I can'teven remember when we came, what time of year it was. It was a few years ago. But I do remember we came up here and I've been trying to get them at Murray to, to come up and they have been coming up a couple 10:00of years. I know that--
HATFIELD: --Jim Rudolph has since retired out of that position but Ido know the gentleman that is in charge of the equine program now, Dale [Editor's note: Dale Barnett] who was at Midway and he has been bringing students up a couple of times.
SMITH: Sounds like it would be a good idea.
HATFIELD: So, it really is because you have no idea. If you, if youwork in the Quarter horse business, I mean, you just have no idea that this is even here. I think that's helped KEMI, the Kentucky--
HATFIELD: --Equine Management Internship Program has helped bring a lotof young people in from out-of-state to introduce them to this and, I mean it's, it's quite an eye opener when you drive down these roads and see all the farms and, um, it's an amazing place to live.
SMITH: Now had you had, had any experience with Thoroughbreds--
SMITH: --before you came here?
SMITH: Okay, just Quarter horses?
HATFIELD: Just Quarter horses. Um-hm. I mean, when I went to schoolat, at, you know, Murray, if I, you know, if vet school didn't work out, you know, my ambition was to go back and work in Oklahoma, work on a Quarter horse farm. Purcell, Oklahoma was the Lexington of the 11:00Quarter horse business and that was really what my plan was, was to come out here, go to school, get a degree and go back and work in the Quarter horse business.
SMITH: Now did you ever have any association with Quarter horse folksin Kentucky?
HATFIELD: No, I didn't know a soul when I moved here.
HATFIELD: Not a soul --(laughs)--.
SMITH: And Murray's a different--
HATFIELD: --Murray's a different-- ------------(??) when I came hereI knew, you know, I knew Todd and I made friends that summer at Spendthrift so I had, had some friends when I moved here in 1981 full- time but--
HATFIELD: --um, when I first moved to Kentucky I didn't know, didn'tknow anybody.
SMITH: Yeah, I can say the same thing.
HATFIELD: Yeah --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Um, so when you came back after you graduated--
SMITH: --you went to Gainesway--
SMITH: --is that what you said? And what was your job there--
SMITH: -- and who hired you?
HATFIELD: Yearling groom. Dr. Chris Cahill hired me.
HATFIELD: Uh, and um, Todd also got a job there and he quickly movedover to the stallion barn, so he, he was running stallions. Todd is 12:00probably, he is my, he is my oldest friend and he is married and has a daughter, lives in Massachusetts, he has gotten out of the horse business--
SMITH: --oh, really--
HATFIELD: --and he is a um, physical therapist.
SMITH: What was his last name?
SMITH: Okay. So when you came here did you, did you live in Lexington,did you get an apartment?
HATFIELD: Uh-huh. I lived in Lexington. Uh, we had, Todd and I hada house.
HATFIELD: Um, and uh, it was very funny 'cause Todd and I have alwaysbeen friends, never been romantically involved but we lived together for years and uh, it was always very interesting to see people's reaction when they found out that we lived together but, you know, weren't romantically involved but uh, he was a great roommate, he is, he is still a great friend.
HATFIELD: And uh, but we got a little duplex over off of AlexandriaDrive. The first place we lived in that summer, Todd and his girlfriend Karen and I had a trailer over by where the Sam's-- 13:00
HATFIELD: --um, is and lived in a, in a trailer.
SMITH: Tight quarters. --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: Tight quarters yeah and he had a German Shepherd and shehad uh,, two Australian Shepherd's so it was a tight, tight quarters --(both laugh)--.
SMITH: Those are three big dogs --(laughs)--.
HATFIELD: Yes, yeah, but he still had his German Shepherd when lived onAlexandria Drive.
SMITH: Okay. And you both worked at Gainesway--
SMITH: -to begin with?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And I worked for Jim Power was uh, the yearlingmanager. Robin Barry was his assistant.
HATFIELD: Um, you know, Joe Taylor was there, Mr. Gaines was there. Um,uh, Bates Newton. I don't know if you run into him in your travels.
SMITH: The name is familiar.
HATFIELD: Bates Newton was there so I met a lot of, probably met thebest horseman I've ever seen there, his name was uh, uh, oh, Jeff and his wife Re-, was, and her name was Renee and of course now their last name has escaped me [Editor's note: Dunlap], but he--
SMITH: --it will come back--
HATFIELD: --he taught me a lot, he taught me a lot.14:00
SMITH: What was his job there?
HATFIELD: He was a, yeah, a stallion groom--
HATFIELD: --but he would come and help us. His wife, Renee, workedwith, with me um, ---------(??).
SMITH: So you were working with yearlings ------------(??)?
HATFIELD: I was working with yearlings. Yeah--
SMITH: In what capacity, what was your job?
SMITH: As groom?
HATFIELD: Yep. Was the yearling groom.
SMITH: Did you prepare them for sales or?
HATFIELD: Yeah, uh-huh, went there, you know, right after I graduatedfrom college and went through the September sale with them. And moved uh, so I was there, wasn't even quite a year and I moved to Crescent Farm which was right across the street.
SMITH: Okay, now why did you do that?
HATFIELD: I had some friends there and, and uh, just another opportunity.I worked, started working with broodmares and yearlings. Broodmares and foals and became a barn foreman and uh, did that, it was uh, it was very interesting. That was my, it was hard work, you know, we got there in the morning and teased and worked for Hooper Roff--
HATFIELD: -- was the farm manager at that time.15:00
SMITH: How do you spell that last name?
HATFIELD: Um, R-O-F-F.
SMITH: Okay. It's Crescent Hill?
HATFIELD: Dunlap, Shane.
SMITH: Jeff Dunlap --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: --Jeff Dunlap --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: Um, Crescent Farm.
HATFIELD: And, went there and, I mean, worked my tail off, you know,--
SMITH: --describe a typical day--
HATFIELD: --weed eated, mowed. Huh?
SMITH: Describe a typical day.
HATFIELD: Typical day during the breeding season was come in themorning, tease the mares, uh, turn out the mares that didn't have vet work, do the vet work, clean stalls, there were three of us that took care of three barns so, you know, we were taking care of 30 mares. Um, three of us, 30, maybe more, barns were, yeah the barns were about 20 stalls a piece so we mucked a lot of stalls and then when we were done, we mowed. Uh, drove a bat wing in the evening--
HATFIELD: --after we brought the--
SMITH: --what's that--
HATFIELD: --the mower with the big arms that fold down. Since I could16:00drive a tractor --(both laugh)-- being from a farm, farming community. Uh, but we would bring the mares in and, and feed them and then get on a tractor and mow until, you know, before dark. And, but uh, it was--
SMITH: --long day.
HATFIELD: It was a long day; it was a lot of fun. Moved over to a mareand foal barn and one of the friends I had met at Spendthrift, um, two of them actually worked there. A girl by the name of Cheryl Goodman who, we're still friends. She no longer lives here either and Vivian Smith who had worked at Spendthrift, she was the yearling manager at Crescent.
SMITH: Who owned Crescent?
HATFIELD: Uh, the Johnson's, they still do I think. Linda Johnson whoactually used to be married to Brownell Combs, it was very interesting, it's a small world. She married Johnson.
HATFIELD: I can't remember what his first name was, I want to say Dickbut I don't know if that's right.
SMITH: Okay. Now this would have been what, '80?
HATFIELD: Yeah. Uh, and that was my first introduction to stallions,17:00I, we also took care of the quarantine barn so any new stallions that would come in would go there, any lay up horses would go there.
HATFIELD: And uh, so I took care of stallions and Hooper came down oneday and they were short handed, asked me if I wanted to come up and help in the breeding shed. So I went up and, and did that and helped him a couple of times. And that was really my first taste of the stallion barn. Um, I didn't take care of any stallions; just went up and helped them in the breeding shed.
SMITH: Um-hm. --------------(??)---
HATFIELD: --and really liked it, I really enjoyed it.
SMITH: Now it's very unusual for a, a woman to be involved, is there,was it unusual for him to have asked you to help out?
HATFIELD: Um, you know, Hooper really, I think he was one of the, one ofthose people that he didn't really care if I was a woman or not. Uh, he knew that I could do it and he needed, he needed the help. He did tell me later on that I had gone to him a number of times and asked him if I could come to work at the farm and he didn't hire me because I was 18:00a woman and he was afraid, because a lot of the boys that were worked there were country boys, and he was afraid that, you know, the sexual harassment and them giving me a hard time and um, you know, finally he gave into me pestering him I think --(both laugh)--. And it worked out great, I met some great guys and uh, and we became friends, actually saw one about six months ago that I worked there with.
SMITH: Now how long where you there?
HATFIELD: I was there probably about a year, um.
SMITH: Now is that common, I mean it sounds like you and some of yourfriends--
HATFIELD: --I think you--
SMITH: --would go from farm to farm.
HATFIELD: I think, you know, I think they do still the grooms whenyou're first getting into the business, you know, you get a better offer, more money. I actually came out here and applied for a job when they just had a few stallions, they had Nodouble and they used to keep his mares here because he had a fertility problem. And I was going to take care of the mares that went to Nodouble 'cause I knew the stallion manager here. And they wouldn't give me $5.00 an hour so I didn't come to work here --(both laugh)--. But uh, you know I learned a lot at 19:00Crescent, I worked hard. I did move over to the yearling department
HATFIELD: And worked, um, worked there.
SMITH: Now at that time were you still thinking you wanted to be ayearling manager?
HATFIELD: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: Um, left there and went to W. T. Young's farm. It wasn'tcalled Overbrook then, it was just called W. T. Young Farm. And there was a fellow that worked there that I had also met at Spendthrift. He, his name was Stanley Barnes, and he's not working with horses anymore either, he sales insurance.
HATFIELD: Uh, but went to work there and we did everything. They didn'thave stallions but there were just a few of us that worked there, it was a small, real small farm at that time. I think we had three barns and so we did the mares and the foals and the yearlings and I also rode. Um, Mr. Young's daughter-in-law, Barbara, Bill Young's--
HATFIELD: --wife uh, rode hunter jumpers and I rode.20:00
HATFIELD: So um, I rode her horses' everyday for her and took them overfences, for her.
SMITH: So had you been doing that, previously?
HATFIELD: I, I mean I'd been riding ever since I was little and I usedto exercise our stallion, our um, race horses, Quarter horse race horses when I was young.
SMITH: Did you ever compete with horses and hunter jumpers?
HATFIELD: Oh, I did when I was in college.
HATFIELD: I mean, we had, did, you know, the equestrian team. Uh, I wasthe vice-president of the Horseman's Club. I was vice-president of the Rodeo Club when I was in college. Um, but I rode everyday, it was, it was a lot of fun. And they were just building the new office and the barn. Actually um, the manager there left and Melvin Cinnamon came to work there.
HATFIELD: And he had been the manager at Calumet and when J.T. Lundycame, um, he left. Along with Margaret Glass and so Melvin came and he had never worked a female. Never, when he, are you, are you planning 21:00on talking to Dan Rosenberg?
HATFIELD: Well he'll tell you all about it because he also worked forMelvin at Calumet.
SMITH: I have interviewed uh, Ted Bates.
SMITH: He told me about him too.
HATFIELD: Yep. I met, that's how I met Mr. Bates. And I met uh, Imet a lot of people through Melvin. But, you know, when Mr. Young hired him he said, you know, "Melvin you can certainly do whatever you want to. You can hire and fire whoever you want, but give them a chance, give, you know, give them, give the people that are there a chance to, to show you what they can do." And we became fast friends. Um, Melvin actually, when Melvin left he was going to get another job and he wanted me to go with him and I had planned on doing that. And actually working in the office with the new foreman and he got ill and died shortly thereafter, but, I mean, that was a big thing to me. For a man that had never been around women, never worked a woman and told Dan Rosenberg not to hire women.
SMITH: Did he?
HATFIELD: Um, for him to say that to me was a, was one of the biggest22:00compliments I ever got.
SMITH: What do you think changed his mind?
HATFIELD: I think just seeing me and knowing me and realizing that, youknow, I was a hard worker and it didn't really matter if you were a male or a female. I think that, that made the big difference to him.
SMITH: Now what did you do um, at the W.T. Young farm, you said youhelped--
SMITH: --exercise the horses and?
HATFIELD: I, you know, we, we would get, come in the morning and samething. Tease the mares, do the vet work, get the horses out, you know, clean stalls and then I'd ride for a couple hours. She had two horses that I, that I had. I had fences set up in the front and I would go and school them over fences for her and, and just ride them or, you know, just ride them around the property, keep them in shape and then come back and get the horses up, you know.
SMITH: Did you ever break yearlings?
HATFIELD: I did. I broke yearlings at North Ridge, which is where Iwent after I left W. T. Young's.
SMITH: Okay. You've been to a lot of farms.
HATFIELD: Yeah. Um, I was at North Ridge for eight years. I've been inLexington since 1980, I've been here for 25 years so--
HATFIELD: --it's um, 28 years, so it's been a.23:00
SMITH: So how long where you at, at the W.T. Young farm?
HATFIELD: You know um, I asked somebody that, I called Gainsborough theother day and asked them if they still had my resume 'cause it has all the dates on it and, you know, I would say I was at, at W.T.'s for a year or two. Um, I met my husband when I was working at Crescent and we didn't marry until I was at North Ridge.
SMITH: What's your husband's name?
HATFIELD: Greg Magruder. M A G R U D E R.
HATFIELD: Um, I met him uh, picked him up at the barn at Keeneland --(laughs)-- at the, at he yearling sale --(laughs)--.
SMITH: He's a horseman?
HATFIELD: He was, he is uh, he was a bloodstock agent at that point oftime. Had lived in England a number of years and had just moved back to the states.
HATFIELD: Um, so um, left there and went to North Ridge. Was at North24:00Ridge for about seven years.
SMITH: Now let's, let's take you up to where you left W.T. Young.Now at this time you'd been in the business of a few years. What did you learn in that time period and who, who do you think were the most important mentors that you had?
HATFIELD: Um, well, I mean, gosh, you learn a lot. You know, you'rearound the vets, you're around the horseman, you know, and when my first summer at Spendthrift, Cheryl Goodman and Vivian Smith, I mean those girls taught me a lot. Rachel Smallwood she still works at, at Shadwell, she's still here. You know, I had never been around a Thoroughbred. I didn't know anything about what to do, how to groom a horse like you're supposed to groom a horse. You know, how, I never crossed picked feet, I mean, you know, and when you swept a barn, you swept it. I mean there wasn't any straw, there wasn't--they, all those girls taught me a lot about what it means to be a, a, a good horsewoman.
HATFIELD: And uh, how to take pride in, in your barn and your horses,25:00you know, you want the shiniest horse in the barn. You want your horse to, to look the best and those, those women taught me that. Um, Sam Ballenger was there as I said she was a, a great mentor and she and I worked together again at North Ridge. She was a brood-, came over there and was a broodmare manager. --(coughs)-- Um, but, you know, I think, you know, you work hard and, and, and people respect you and for it, um.
SMITH: During that time were their others like Mr. Cinnamon who weren'tum, quite enamored with hiring women but changed their minds?
HATFIELD: I think um, I think it was coming to the point where therewere a lot of women in the business. I mean, who for, there weren't any, very many women working with the, with the mares. I worked with barren mares. And it was a lot of physical labor--
HATFIELD: --it was a lot of work. And, you know, he was, one of thingsyou'd think he was afraid of, was that I wouldn't handle the work. And 26:00uh, I did, I mean, I was there early in the morning and left late in the afternoon and, you know, those are the things I tell people coming up in the industry today. You have to be the first one there in the morning and the last one to leave and, you know, give 110% and--
HATFIELD: --people notice you.
SMITH: Did you feel like you had to do that more because you werea woman?
HATFIELD: You know, I don't think I did back then, I don't think I.
SMITH: Um-hm. Well it's my understanding that about that time periodyou were seeing a lot of woman um, working with horses--
HATFIELD: --um- hm--
SMITH: --in certain areas but, is this the time period, you tell me whatyour experience was, when you started to see fewer African Americans.
HATFIELD: Oh very few.
SMITH: More woman--
SMITH: --more Hispanics.
HATFIELD: Yeah. I don't think even Hispanics then
HATFIELD: I don't think there were very many, I mean, I think there werea few, but I don't think there were very many Hispanics um--
HATFIELD: --working in the business. There were a few AfricanAmericans, when I was at Spendthrift I worked with a number of African 27:00Americans and they were great teachers too. Absolutely. Um, Carl was at Spendthrift, I mean, he taught me a lot. Um, a guy by the name of Redman who, you know, I don't even know their last names, you know, taught me a lot.
SMITH: Did you ever come across Tom Embry?
HATFIELD: Um-um. No.
SMITH: Okay. Somebody I've interviewed, he used to work at Overbrook
SMITH: Some, but after you left, so.
HATFIELD: Yeah. Yeah. Because it was, it, even when I had left ithadn't become Overbrook yet.
HATFIELD: They were still trying to decide what they wanted to name it.
SMITH: So you left after Mr. Cinnamon passed away?
HATFIELD: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: Got new management in and decided maybe it was time for meto go somewhere else. Uh, so I went to North Ridge again working with yearlings. Rubbing yearlings, um, grooming, being a groom, worked my way up to being a barn foreman.
SMITH: Who was managing North Ridge?
HATFIELD: Dan Elliott.28:00
SMITH: Now wasn't that fairly new division in Kentucky?
HATFIELD: They had been around, gosh I don't even know how long, butit was a big farm and they had become one of the big yearling sellers. They dropped a lot of money. Ann Trimble helped them pick out their broodmare band. They were um, leading breeders a couple of years when I was there. Uh, also uh, Dan Elliott, Dan Hall was there.
HATFIELD: Who is now working for Adena Springs. He actually left NorthRidge and went to Adena Springs. He was a yearling manager there. Mark Roberts was there who also now works for; he worked here as stallion manager, worked, now works for Adena Springs, runs their Florida division. When Dan Elliott left, Dr., Dr. Michael Osborne came in.
HATFIELD: And uh, he was, I think he, you know, he was definitely oneof my mentors. He was a wonderful man and he passed away probably two years ago. He went over and before he came to North Ridge he ran the 29:00Irish National Stud and when he left North Ridge he went to work for the Maktoum's.
SMITH: Oh, okay.
HATFIELD: Um, uh, but he was--
SMITH: --was he a vet--
SMITH: --did he have that background?
HATFIELD: You know, I always thought he was, but I'm not sure that's,that's the truth, I'm not sure that he was, I'm not sure that's where the doctor came from. He has a daughter that's a veterinarian.
HATFIELD: And his son uh, Joe works with the Maktoum's in Ireland.
HATFIELD: Joe Osborne. Uh, he is, he was a wonderful, wonderful man.Very well spoken, very good horseman.
SMITH: What was he, as a mentor, what was he teaching you?
HATFIELD: He was, he was one of the first folks that said, you know,got me over in the stallion barn and, and uh, Dan Elliott uh, also. I guess Dan was still there maybe for part of that time when Michael was there but uh, you know, he was, you know, just do what you do and don't, you know, do it best you can and, and people will respect you 30:00for that. So he, I think he was the one that really taught me that. And I, again, I mean, my goal when I went there was to be yearling manager of North Ridge Farm. That's what I wanted to do. And they had some, the guys over with the stallions were pulling the stallions manes and they didn't like the way they looked and I was pulling all the yearling manes for the sales. So they asked me to go over there and pull all the stallion manes. So that's how I first started over there doing that. Then they asked me if I wanted to work in the breeding shed so I would work with the yearlings and go over for the sessions and work in the breeding shed. And then they asked me if I would run the breeding shed. Still wasn't working over there full-time and so I did that, went over there then and started rubbing a string of yearling, of stallions. So uh, I had stallions that I took care of.
HATFIELD: And then they asked me if I would be the stallion manager.Dan Elliott did and, you know, I, I told him, I said, "Are you sure 31:00you want to do that because you are going to take a lot of flack for it." You know, and he said, you know, "We think that you're the best person for the job and it doesn't matter to us that you're a woman."
SMITH: How did the workers feel about that?
HATFIELD: Well I mean those guys I'd been working with them and runningthe breeding shed--
HATFIELD: --you know, already so I think they, you know, they all tookit pretty well. We all worked together, I mean, you know, I didn't get an office in the, you know--(laughs)--.
SMITH: That's right.
HATFIELD: I still rubbed horses and, you know, mucked stalls and did allthose things. So, I mean, I think it worked out fine.
SMITH: Did you, did you want to do this?
HATFIELD: Oh yeah, once I got in there I really, I mean, I reallyloved the excitement-- I mean, I think that's one thing that I loved about the yearlings was the excitement. I mean I loved the shows, I loved going to the sales, I loved talking to people, I loved showing yearlings. That was, you know, I loved to show yearlings, um.
SMITH: Now you show yearlings you're talking about at Keeneland--
SMITH: --or Fasig-Tipton.32:00
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And you have people that come a month prior to thesale and look at 'em at the farm. When I would go, then I started running the shed for North Ridge.
HATFIELD: Still did that a lot of times when I was at the stallion barn.September you're not breeding so I would go to the sales and, and run the shedrow. You know, when the customers would come up they would come to me and ask for yearlings. And so that's what I, I did that.
SMITH: What'd you think about the sales, was this, did you, were you,were you able to see what yearlings were going to be, sell better than others? [phone rings]
HATFIELD: I, oh hold on it must be three o'clock.
SMITH: Yes it is. I'll pause this.
[Pause in recording.]
SMITH: For you? Okay. Okay. Um, I think we were talking about thesales and your experience at sales and getting yearlings ready.
SMITH: Were you, were you getting a feel for what was going to sell welland what was?
HATFIELD: You know, I think you do after you're around and you learn alittle bit about pedigrees and I'm not a pedigree person at all, that's 33:00definitely, you know, the pedigree goddess Ms. Anne Peter's job. But um, you know, you do and you, you learn what you like and what you don't like and I still have a lot of Quarter horse in me so I like a different type horse than a lot of other people do. But um, you know, it is still a game, you know, the people that buy the yearlings that pay millions of dollars for them, they don't know what they are going to do either. So I mean I, I never wanted to be a blood, a bloodstock agent, I mean, that's, you know, I don't have that kind of eye. I don't think.
HATFIELD: Um, but uh, you know, once I went over to the stallion barnI, you know, I really liked it. And, you know, you get to like the stallions for different reasons and, you know, you look at them and you always, you know, they come to you, you always think they're going to make it. You know, you always hope they do. But it is a hard business--
HATFIELD: --the stallion business.
SMITH: Who are some of the stallions at North Ridge?
HATFIELD: Um, we had Tsunami Slew, Seattle Song, Saratoga Six, Marfa,Encino, Liloy was there, Majestic Shore, Majesty's Prince, probably, 34:00and you may have not even heard of any of these. Uh--
SMITH: --I've heard of a few.
SMITH: Now how many stallions did they have?
HATFIELD: We had uh, oh they come and, came and went. It was a greatbig barn but it was never totally full.
SMITH: Now where any of these stallions that they owned out right orwere they syn-?
HATFIELD: You know, I, I don't think so I think most of them were, wereeither in partnership or syndicated horses. Um, Saratoga Six was an undefeated two year old champion and he, he broke a, a cannon bone and he was, or sesamoids and had a big, almost like what Barbaro's leg looked like, the big steel plate down the front with all the screws.
HATFIELD: Except that was a front leg which is obviously better. Butuh, but he was probably the biggest name. And then Marfa came there from another farm--
HATFIELD: --we got some horses from farms that were closing down. But35:00uh, Tony Burton who is now here as a broodmare manager worked with me at North Ridge, rubbed yearlings [Editor's note: stallions, not yearlings] with me and actually stayed there long after they sold the farm to Mr. Jones and--
SMITH: --oh, okay--
HATFIELD: --uh, went to work over at Domino, so, other connections.
SMITH: You mentioned uh, in that um, that farms were closing then. Nowthis was about the time when the business was having some financial problems--
HATFIELD: --in the '80's, yeah--
HATFIELD: --you know, you think about the late '80's and all the uh, uh,and everything was so expensive, stud fees were so high and then the, you know, the collapse happened and a lot of farms went under. Um, North Ridge went under but it didn't really go under because of the market it went under because of bad management in their construction business. They owned a huge construction business in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
SMITH: Mr. Teater was telling me.
HATFIELD: Um-hm. Yeah, there you go. That's uh, exactly the samepeople.
SMITH: Now you told me that uh, Mr. Teater used to come down and ------36:00------(??)
HATFIELD: He did, they had a, part of farm that actually after theyclosed their Minnesota operation he brought some of the horses down and, and trained and we had a few brood-, broodmares and a couple of stallions there.
HATFIELD: Saddlebreds, uh-huh. They had their own separate stallionbarn at another farm
HATFIELD: Um, so that was interesting. That's where I got to met Edand, and Pete Teater came there--
HATFIELD: --and broke yearlings at North Ridge, broke, ran the yearlingbarn before I went, actually that was what I was doing, the lay up barn when I went over to the stallion barn full time. I was running the lay up barn and we broke yearlings and had their lay up race horses, they had a few race horses.
SMITH: Now how long were you stallion manager there?
HATFIELD: I managed the stallions probably two years there.
HATFIELD: Two and a half, I worked with the stallions on and off forabout four, you know, just going over and helping and doing those kinds of things. Um, I left North Ridge to go to Calumet.
SMITH: Oh okay. --(Hatfield laughs)-- Now why would you do that?37:00
HATFIELD: Well, you know, they offered me a, a manager's job.
SMITH: Who was that, who offered you a job?
HATFIELD: Uh, and North Ridge was selling out.
HATFIELD: North Ridge was selling out you, you know they, they wereselling for two years and you just never knew when somebody was going to walk in and say the farm's been sold, they're, you know, they're closing down. It didn't work out that way, but, you know, when you, when you got an opportunity--same reason Dan Hall left. Um, you know, you, you went where you thought you had a safe place and I certainly thought Calumet when I went to work there I thought 'I'll never had to find another job in my entire life.'
SMITH: Now what--
HATFIELD: --I mean I am at the perfect--
SMITH: --what year was that--
HATFIELD: --at the perfect place. Um, I guess Alydar broke his leg inwhat did they say '99?
SMITH: No, it'd be'80--
HATFIELD: --'89. In 1990, um, and I had been there, I went there in38:00January of the prev-, previous year.
HATFIELD: Um, and uh, but I managed the broodmares and the yearlings.
HATFIELD: And I didn't really have anything to do with the stallionsother than taking the mares over there. Um.
SMITH: Was this, in terms, was this a good job though, was it a goodmove?
HATFIELD: Oh it was, oh it was a great job, yeah. I had a great house,you know, I mean, the house I lived in was right next to the foaling barn, I did all the, you know, the foals--
SMITH: --so they provided housing?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. So did North Ridge.
HATFIELD: Um, I didn't live on the farm at North Ridge but they didprovide housing for some of the employees. So it was a big step for me. I got a house, I got a vehicle um, so it was, it was a big step.
SMITH: Now at this point you thought that the farm was in great shape?
HATFIELD: Oh yeah--
HATFIELD: I had no, yeah, sure. I mean everybody did.
HATFIELD: You know, not really until Alydar died did anybody really knowwhat kind of trouble J.T. had gotten the place into. 39:00
SMITH: Um-hm. Now was Spendthrift still doing okay then?
HATFIELD: No. They'd been--
SMITH: --they'd been bankrupt--
HATFIELD: -- yeah. And actually some of the stallions from Spendthriftwent to Calumet.
HATFIELD: Um, you know Alydar was there, Affirmed was there, um--
HATFIELD: --Wild Again was there for a little while. Capote was there.
SMITH: But now you didn't work with the stallions?
SMITH: --you worked with the--
HATFIELD: --I mean but, you know--
HATFIELD: -- you obviously were there and I, you know, my house wasclose to the stallion barn and, you know, you went up and helped once in awhile when they needed help doing something. But, but I was not, did not manage the stallions at all. I did the broodmares and the yearlings. And um.
SMITH: What kind of a staff did you have there? That you worked with.
HATFIELD: Uh, very interesting when I first went to work there --(laughs)--. Uh, um, they hired me and my understanding was that I would uh, get to work with the current broodmare manager for a little while. 40:00They fired him the day before I came.
SMITH: And who was that?
HATFIELD: Um, I can't remember, I'll have to look it up.
SMITH: That's okay.
HATFIELD: I can't remember. Um, he actually went to, to King Ranch, um.But it was a, it was, I didn't know they were going to do that, none of these guys knew I worked, was coming.
HATFIELD: Um, they did a lot of drinking on the farms back then. Andthat, when I cleaned up, you know, my desk there were some liquor bottles in it and um, the guys drank at work and um, I worked for a couple of weeks and called everybody together and said, you know, "This isn't going to work out. I'll give you guys' time to, to get your lives in order, but if you don't stop, you know, you're going to have to leave." Um, so I wasn't a very popular boss --(both laugh)--. But it was a, it was still a great place to work. I had a great office, they had a great, you know um, they had a great big cantina and everybody came and, you know, ti-, took their time cards there and 41:00had lunch there and it was a, it was a great place. Um, you know when Alydar broke his leg and J.T. left and John Ward came in uh, you know, we thought maybe we were going, everything was going to rise from the ashes. It was called Phoenix Cooperation thatt--
HATFIELD: --John Ward ran and, you know, it didn't work out. Um, theyjust couldn't, all the debt that, that J.T. had accumulated and uh, it was a very sad, I mean, I have been to a lot of horse sales and you get fond of horses and you're, you're sad to see them go, but you know that that's what's going to happen when you go to the sale. And when we went and sold all those horses and you saw them taking those great broodmares and going in a million different directions you realized that a dynasty was over.
HATFIELD: You know, those kind of farms just aren't around anymore. Youknow, Claiborne and, you know, there's a few but, you know, that was the end of an era. I mean, this was a magnificent farm, to go from, take a farm that was completely in the black and run it so far into the 42:00ground was amazing to me.
SMITH: In a short time period.
HATFIELD: Yeah. Yeah.
SMITH: Now where you um, I interviewed uh, David Switzer.
SMITH: Um, and he talks about taking the, dr-, walking the horses toKeeneland--
SMITH: --for the sale, where you a part of that?
HATFIELD: Um-hm. We actually did that twice. Actually did that twice,walked them over.
SMITH: Was that hard experience?
HATFIELD: Um, well, you know, walking them over wasn't because you were,you know, you were involved at it. I've got some great pictures, my dad came and uh, took pictures of all of us getting them all ready and walking them over--
HATFIELD: --and my step-mother made ham biscuits for everybody. And, Imean, I hired in a huge crew because we prepped, even though they were run through Lane's End consignment, I mean we did all the work. We, we prepped all the horses and, you know, it was, you know, you are so involved in that, you know, getting them over there safe. And they vaned the race horses over but they, you know, we walked all the mares and yearlings. And um, you know, then you're so involved in the sale 43:00part of it and, you know, not until the very end was it very emotional for me. To see those horses get split up.
SMITH: Which of those horses do you remember, the broodmares?
HATFIELD: Oh, you know, shoot, Our Mims, My Juliet, you know, I meanthose, there were some great broodmares there.
HATFIELD: And I lived on the farm um, for a couple of months after thehorses were all gone. I didn't uh, I didn't have a job. Um, they were very good to me and let me live there. And I went around and talked to everybody I knew, you know, and I wanted to get back into management. And, and uh, I heard that, actually, that they were making some changes in the broodmare division at Gainsborough. And came out here and talked to Dan. Dan and I had became friends --(coughs)--.
HATFIELD: Um, and, you know, I had heard--
SMITH: --now Dan was at Calumet with you?44:00
SMITH: Okay he had already left there--
HATFIELD: --he had already left, he was here--
SMITH: --oh that's right--
SMITH: -- that's right he was here in '78--
HATFIELD: --he was here, he was here and I came and talked to him andtalked about Gainsborough. At the time they had an assistant manager that was really tough to work for um, and I came to Dan and, and, you know, what do I do. Should I go over there, should I apply for the job, should I wait? And, you know, they had a broodmare, stallion manager here, broodmare managers here, they didn't, you know. It's very hard to, to go from manager job to manager job if you lose a job. Um, so he said, you know, just be up front with them. And I went over there and, and, you know, basically talked to Ian Wiedersheim was the assistant managers name. And my first interview was like two hours. We talked about me and him and our lives and, and um, they were, you know, to my knowledge they had just let go the broodmare manager and 45:00did I, you know, that's what I was looking for. And come back for the second interview and he said, "Well now you've worked with stallions, you've worked with mares, what do you think you're best suited for, where does your love lie?" I said, "Well," I said, "to be honest I feel more comfortable in the stallion barn. I have, you know, more experience in the stallion barn." Um, and he said, "Well, as a matter of fact we are not looking for a broodmare manager, we're looking for a stallion manager." --(laughs)-- So I was like, oh isn't it nice to be uh, truthful.
HATFIELD: So they hired me as the uh, as the stallion manager.
SMITH: Hmm. Now this would have been in '92?
HATFIELD: '92 'cause I was there for eight years--
HATFIELD: --before I came here.
SMITH: I'm going to take you back to Calumet and um, tell me aboutAlydar.
HATFIELD: Um, he was very temperamental. He was uh, not an easy horseto handle. He had a um, kind of a bad temper. Ran the fence a lot 46:00out in the, out in the paddocks. Uh, and I remember the stallion, if you look at our stallion paddocks the boards are on the inside and the posts are on the outside.
HATFIELD: And a lot of the fields are not that way, but stallion paddocksare 'cause you do have stallions sometimes that run the fence. And in Alydar's paddock the posts were on the inside and the blanks were on the outside and he used to bump his knees all the time so they couldn't leave him out very long. Um, but he was very temperamental horse that, you know, it just, I still don't think anybody went in and hit him and broke his leg. I mean, I just don't think that that's true, um.
SMITH: What do you think happened?
HATFIELD: I think he kicked the door. I think he kicked the door,sheared the bolts off 'cause I saw it.
HATFIELD: And I think he got his leg caught between the door and the--
HATFIELD: --wall. When I first got there the, the fracture was notcompound. It was, the bone was not sticking through the skin when I 47:00first got there. Um, he was completely covered in sweat, the whole stall was, was um, almost looked like it was misty just from, he was so um, in such, in such pain. But uh, I mean unless somebody went in there that knew him, that would hold him and let somebody hit him, he was not a horse that you would walk in there and do something to if you didn't, if he didn't know you.
SMITH: Um-hm. The injury that he did to himself, could that have causedthat much pain?
HATFIELD: Oh sure--
HATFIELD: -- you break, broke his femur [Editor's note: hind cannon, notfemur], broke his leg in half.
SMITH: Okay, okay. 'Cause I know there was some speculation that hemight have had, you know, colic or something wrong with his stomach initially. I think I read in the book.
HATFIELD: He, not that I.
SMITH: Not that you thought, okay.
HATFIELD: No, he was not colicing.
HATFIELD: Right, he was not rolling, he was standing up in a full bodysweat. Steaming.
SMITH: So when you walked in what was your first thought?
HATFIELD: Well first, when I first saw him, I, you know, I didn't know,48:00I mean, it was, it was like 'oh my, you know, shit is he colicing' and Sonny said, "No, no, you know, look." And you could see his leg was dangling. And he had already called Lynda Robins um--
HATFIELD: --who was um, Linda Stewart, Rhodes Stewart was our, ourveterinarian and she was there soon after. And um, she made some phone calls and stabilized the leg and um, but uh, was a, was a long night. I mean, we kept, she and I laid on his head and kept him laying down all night long. Um--
HATFIELD: --it was a, it was a long night and J.T. Lundy sat in thatstall with us for most the night. Brought us coffee and um, you know, was there in the surgery suite the next morning um, stayed with him all night, stayed with him all the next day.
SMITH: Had you ever been around a horse that had been hurt?
HATFIELD: Not like that. Not like that. I've been around a lot ofhorses that are hurt but not, not broken a leg like that. 49:00
SMITH: Did you think there was any hope?
HATFIELD: I thought there was hope until they uh, Larry Bramlage cameand when he pricked his coronet band to see if there was blood flow and there was very little blood flow. You knew the chances were slim to none that he was going to make it. Um, but he came through the surgery fine, we woke him up, you know, he was in the sling and uh, you know, seemed to be going well and then when he broke his femur, I mean there isn't anything you can do for that. He sli-, he slipped and, and, and broke his femur. And when, in a horse it is up here, it's the bone, if you look at a horse, his femur's up here. So he broke--
SMITH: --oh, way up--
SMITH: -- okay--
HATFIELD: -- he broke this bone up here. So there wasn't anything youcould have done for him. So um, it was s, it was very sad. It was very sad.
SMITH: Hmm. Now you had said Alydar, you know, was a difficult horseand temperament. What did you think of his breeding schedule? 50:00
HATFIELD: Oh I think at that time everybody thought it was uh,horrendous. Um, but you know, we've, now everybody does it. It's, it's the norm to bred at least 100 mares. When I first working with stal-, started working with stallions we bred 52 mares, was, was a lot. Forty-six to forty-eight was a normal book of mares.
HATFIELD: And then, you know, add a few more, add a few more and, and,you know, everybody thought that J.T. Lundy was killing Alydar.
SMITH: Um-hm. Did you?
HATFIELD: Um, I thought it was a lot of mares. I mean the horse was notin, you know--
HATFIELD: -- not physically damaged.
SMITH: You didn't think he was being killed, but--
HATFIELD: --no, no, um. I just thought it, I thought it was a lot. Itwas not the pre-, it was not the, the norm for the, for the business.
SMITH: Were any of the-- he had other stallions there--
SMITH: --and of course they weren't Alydar--
SMITH: -- but were they, was it the same kind?
HATFIELD: You know, I can't remember how, I think they were breeding alot, but I don't think they were breeding--
HATFIELD: --you know, 100 mares like Alydar was. Um, and he was sellingbreeding rights, you know, nobody owned any of the horse, lifetime breeding rights to the horse.
HATFIELD: Which was something nobody yet had done. So um, it was a veryinteresting time and, you know, all the stuff you read about it later is even more interesting --(laughs)--. But
SMITH: What about J.T. Lundy, did you have much association with him?
HATFIELD: Um, he had two assistants. Um, Janice and Susan and mostof my association was them, with them. I mean when I, you know, you teased mares, you did vet work I would go up and, you know, tell, tell them the vet work, what we'd done and what, you know, then we would book the mares and um, going off the farm.
HATFIELD: But, you know, I saw J.T. every once in awhile, but not verymuch.
SMITH: What did you think about the management of the farm compared toNorth Ridge and other farms that you'd worked with?
SMITH: --was it, how was it different?
HATFIELD: It was very um, cold. Um, the office was, you know, it wasn't52:00a very welcoming place. Um, but, you know, the girls were nice enough and it was my first management job and, you know, um, it wouldn't have been my ideal way to run the farm but, you know, I wasn't running the farm I was just managing the broodmares so --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Was, wasn't any particular problem that stood out?
HATFIELD: No I don't think so. You know, I um, like I say, it was kindof a cold place to work.
HATFIELD: You know, the office wasn't real friendly, I mean, there weresome girls in the office obviously that were friendly. And um, when I first started there, I mean, I bought a volleyball net and bought a gas grill and had everybody on the farm over for cook outs and volleyball. The guys said that was the first time anybody had ever done that. Nobody had ever gotten-- now there were a lot of Mexicans working on Calumet.
HATFIELD: That was my first really exposure to the Mexican population.Most of them worked in the training barn or with the yearlings. Um, 53:00although I did have some Mexican guys work for me with the broodmares. But that was really my first um--
HATFIELD: --association with a lot of Hispanic help. And they had,nobody had ever invited the Hispanic help and the white help to a party together. Um, I got a softball team, we played softball, we got a softball team together.
HATFIELD: Um, so I mean I, like I said I had planned on being there--
HATFIELD: --forever, you know, it was the perfect, perfect place.Beautiful farm um, good horses. The help I, you know, finally ended up having was great help.
SMITH: Did you lose a few guys after you cleaned up --(laughs)--?
HATFIELD: --(laughs)--Lost a few guys, yeah , lost a few guys but alot of the guys um, some of the yearling guys came to work with the broodmares and they did hire somebody else to, to take care of the yearling division and I, and I just did strictly the broodmares and um. But it was a, it uh, it was, it was a good job, it was a great job.
SMITH: Now when Alydar died, how soon was it be-, when, before you all54:00realized that things were going to change considerably?
HATFIELD: Not very long. Not very long. Saw a lot of people in darksuits come into the office --(laughs)--. And, you know, the rumors are running rampant.
HATFIELD: And it was uh, you know, right during the November sale. Um,and I had actually, was supposed to go and help them at the sale um, run the shed for North Ridge that sale. And called, Jody Alexander was running the farm then and had called him and said, "Jody I, I can't come," you know. So it was uh--
SMITH: --why couldn't you?
HATFIELD: Well, 'cause I was with Alydar.
SMITH: Oh, at that time, at that moment. Okay.
HATFIELD: Um-hm, yeah. Yeah.
SMITH: Now of course as you said, the rumors were wild after his death,how did you deal with that? I mean, I'm sure people were asking you all the time.
HATFIELD: Uh, people still ask me --(laughs)--.
SMITH: --(laughs)--Yeah, yeah. I just did.
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah --(laughs)--. I mean, I think the same thing, I55:00mean, I just, I don't think, I don't think anybody killed the horse, I mean that, and once you do that the whole thing unravels. I mean, even if there was insurance on the horse. Um, you know, the only way that they were going to make money was to keep Alydar alive, and my, you know, there are all kinds of, you know, theories of why he did what and what happened and we'll never really know.
HATFIELD: We'll never really know. Um I, you know.
SMITH: But were you ever told not to talk to anyone about the horse ordid you?
HATFIELD: You know, I'm sure I was. I don't remember that I mean I'msure that, you know, during the whole process, you know, J.T., you know, probably did say, you know, don't, you know, we'll handle the press. And that's not unusual for any--
SMITH: --no, no--
HATFIELD: --you know, it happens here, you know.
HATFIELD: So, um.
SMITH: So you were still there when John Ward?
HATFIELD: I was, uh-huh, John Ward, David Switzer, and there was anothergentleman, Ron something that, that came in. I'm sure-- 56:00
SMITH: --yeah. The lawyer I think.
HATFIELD: Um-hm. The lawyer right.
SMITH: I can't think of his last name either--
HATFIELD: --I can't think of his last name--
SMITH: --the three musketeers----------(??)--.
HATFIELD: --right, yeah. And they were great. It was very interestingthat uh, J.T. had locked and closed all the bathrooms in all the barns, all the broodmare barns. So the guys would actually work as a team, we had a, a su-, a suburban and we would go from barn to barn to barn and then if you need to go to the bathroom, obviously the guys it was fairly easy but if, you know, if you needed to use the restroom you had to get in the suburban and drive back to the canteen. And when John came in he, you know, got all of the bathrooms working and, you know, got the, you know--
HATFIELD: --gave the guys some, you know, good, better workingconditions. And um, you know, like I said, we were all very hopeful that it was all going to work. But, you know, at that point I think you knew in the back of your mind that something's not right. You know, we went through a yearling sale and um, and then, you know, just wasn't going to happen.
HATFIELD: You knew that the end was coming.57:00
SMITH: Do you remember when the farm was sold?
HATFIELD: Um, I do, I didn't go um, out there and I didn't go for any ofthe auction. My husband, Greg, went out um, for the auction. But uh, I do remember when it was sold.
SMITH: Was that tough?
HATFIELD: Yeah, I think it was tough for everybody but it was, you know,de Kwiatkowski was the savior of Calumet, you know. It wasn't ever going to change, it was always going to be a farm and, and everybody was, you know, thankful for that, that it wasn't going to be split up and, you know, obviously that little piece there in the middle of it is a housing development now but, I mean, that's what everybody thought was going to happen was they were going to build houses there.
HATFIELD: And uh, so it was, it was great, you know, that it's, it'sstill there and you can drive by and can still see it and, you know.
SMITH: Yeah. I um, interviewed Walt Robertson and he uh, tells the taleof the--.
HATFIELD: --yeah, yeah, yeah--
SMITH: --of the sale. And uh, pretty emotional time.
HATFIELD: Oh yeah, I think it was, I think it was.
SMITH: For the community.
HATFIELD: Yes. Yeah, oh definitely for the community.58:00
SMITH: Now by that time were you still living there?
HATFIELD: You know what, I can't remember if I was or not. Um, I mustnot have been-- well I could have been--they actually were um, I lived there, they were redoing the house at, at Gainsborough when I got that job. But I can't remember if I was actually still living on the property and working at Gainsborough or what exactly the situation was.
SMITH: Now you mentioned your husband, when did you get married?
HATFIELD: Got married in 1985.
HATFIELD: And uh, met him in 1983 at the July yearling sale. We gotmarried two years later.
SMITH: Um-hm. And uh, what was he doing at that time, was he workingwith horses still?
HATFIELD: He was a bloodstock agent.
HATFIELD: Um-hm. And soon got out of that. It uh, --(laughs)-- youknow, unfortunately it uh, it's kind of a cut throat business and, you know, he got, didn't want to lie to people and didn't want to, you know, rob Peter to pay Paul or take from this and, you know, so he got 59:00out of that business, he worked for the International Racing Bureau for a number of years. Worked at the Racing Times--
HATFIELD: -- publication--
HATFIELD: that uh, was uh, bought by the Daily Racing Form later on butum, he does, works for himself now, does all, does all kinds of things. Media consulting, he sells some nutritional products, he uh, he does a little bit of everything.
SMITH: Now that time uh, period to be a bloodstock agent that waswhen the economy was pretty, we were dealing with the recession, the downturn--
SMITH: --in the Thoroughbred industry. That would have been a toughtime.
HATFIELD: Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, you saw a lot of what was going on,you know, when, when the, a lot of things came out about J.T. He was buying horses and getting commissions and selling horses and getting commissions, you know, for the same horse. And um, there were a lot of people doing that and I think there probably still is. But um, you know, that wasn't something Greg was interested in doing.
HATFIELD: You can, sometimes you can make money if you know all thetricks, you know-- 60:00
HATFIELD: --but uh, but it was something that, that didn't uh, he wasn'tinterested in. He was actually working for the Racing Times when we left um--
SMITH: --left Calumet--
HATFIELD: --Calumet. Um-hm.
SMITH: Okay. Let's see um, lets talk about Gainsborough then and thenwe'll--
HATFIELD: --okay, um--
SMITH: --we'll stop for today. So you ended up at Gainsborough--
SMITH: -- as the stallion manager.
HATFIELD: I did.
SMITH: Now was that, again here you are in a situation where, were thereany other females as stallion managers?
HATFIELD: No, there are very few females--actually I said that Veronicawas the first female that I worked with and that's not true. I worked with two others there. Um, Lisa Shelborn who is, was the stallion manager at Becky Thomas' farm down in Florida until recently. And uh, uh, another girl that worked on the farm that took care of some of the broodmares that were brought in to breed to one of our horses that had some fertility problems and she would come down every once in awhile and help us in the breeding shed, um. But as far as stallions managers in the area, no there weren't too many. But, I mean, they, 61:00there again, I think Ian and Allen Kershaw were of the opinion that, you know, if I knew what I was doing that it really didn't matter and it was very interesting that a lot of people um, were very amazed that an Arab would hire a woman to do the job. But, you know, really I was there for eight years and saw Sheikh Maktoum twice. So, I mean, I don't think that was really any concern of his.
SMITH: Um-hm, um-hm.
HATFIELD: But it was also a great job and I did, one thing aboutGainsborough that I loved and still miss is doing everything, I mean, I just had a very few stallions so we would bred early in the morning and I would go help bring the broodmares in or go out and feed in the fields. I mean, it was such a stagnant population because it was all their horses. Unlike here where mares come and go.
HATFIELD: I mean, you knew every mares name by sight. You knew everyyearling's sire and dam. You know, you knew all those mares.
SMITH: So all they had were their own horses?
HATFIELD: Their own horses. Their own horses.
SMITH: You didn't see much of that by then.
HATFIELD: No --(laughs)--. And they're all, and, I mean, its still that62:00way, you know, and, and Juddmonte's that way and there is a few farms that are that way, that are private.
SMITH: Primarily Arab?
HATFIELD: Um, you know--
SMITH: -- -------------(??) owned--
HATFIELD: --there's some others, I think, probably, um.
HATFIELD: Um, but uh, you know, we were a family and the same with NorthRidge I mean we were all young and grew up together um, and we did everything together at North Ridge.
HATFIELD: All of us, you know, we worked together all day and partiedtogether in the evening and, I mean, Gainsborough was the same. We all lived on the farm and we all spent a lot of time together.
SMITH: So you had a house there?
HATFIELD: So, I did. It is very interesting, the house, I told um, DeanLavy who's still there who's the horse manager at the farm and was the broodmare manager when I went there. Um, the house that I lived in at Gainsborough was the house that I have lived in longest of any house in my entire life.
HATFIELD: Eight years. Um, now my dad lived in the house in Ponca City63:00for a long time but I didn't live there very long.
SMITH: Right, right.
HATFIELD: So uh, when I lived at uh, when I got the job here, Allenlet me stay at my house in Gainsborough because they were renovating a house here for me. So I lived at Gainsborough for probably eight months after I left.
SMITH: That's pretty nice.
HATFIELD: Yeah. Yeah. Well, it was kind of tit-for-tat because whenuh, Allen got the job at Gainsborough Farm, Allen's wife, Valerie, was the broodmare manager here. And they were working on Allen's house--
HATFIELD: --and Valerie had left here, had quit, but they let Valerieand Allen live in the house here until they got his house done at Gainsborough so --(both laugh)--.
SMITH: There's a pattern here.
HATFIELD: It all kind of worked out, yeah. But um, I lovedGainsborough. This is, this is the only farm that I would have ever left Gainsborough for.
SMITH: Hmm. What was so good about Gainsborough?
HATFIELD: It was, it was a great job, it was a great job, greatbenefits, um.
HATFIELD: You know, there were four managers during the off season you64:00worked um, one weekend a month. You had every, you had three, every, you know, you had three weekends off in a row. Great benefit package. You worked a five day work week in off season. Um, they don't do that too much anymore but, you know, it was, it was a great place to work. I loved the people I worked with, I loved the management and that's really, really hard to find.
SMITH: Now, about the pay, I'm not going to ask you what you make, --(Hatfield laughs)-- but you went from Calumet to Gainsborough, was there an increase in pay? I mean did, have you steadily gone?
HATFIELD: Um, I, I am steadily gone up now, but when I came, I did,was an increase when I went to Gainsborough from Calumet. Um, it was pretty much an even move here.
HATFIELD: Um, and uh
SMITH: So you could make a good living as a stallion manager?
HATFIELD: Yeah, I think so.
HATFIELD: Uh, you know, again, you know, there is so much more to a job65:00than the money anyway. You know, it's working for people that you care about and that care about you and working around good horses and have great working conditions and, I mean, Robert Clay is, you know, one of the finest people I've ever met. Um, his son Case is a, is, is a great man. He, you know, he's got some big shoes to fill but he's trying. Dan Rosenberg is one of the best. Um, like I said he and I have been friends for a long time. But he's a, he's a great mentor and a good friend and a, an excellent horseman. So I mean these are, these are the kind of people I wanted to work for. They're very honest.
HATFIELD: Uh, I've never been dishonest and I've, you know, I won't tellyou what farms, but I've worked for farms that you didn't talk to the people that were looking at horses because, you know, they had some other story to tell. And I think there're still farms like that. Um, but you, know, if you--
SMITH: --if they were going to sale or--
HATFIELD: --yeah, yeah--
SMITH: --breed pro-,--
HATFIELD: --yeah. So, but, you know, I mean, when owners come here66:00or people come here they can talk to anybody. They can talk to the grooms, I think 'cause the, the story's the same--
HATFIELD: --you know.
SMITH: Now Gainsborough, did they do much selling?
HATFIELD: Um, no--
SMITH: --yeah, okay--
HATFIELD: -- no, no.
SMITH: So it was really, the farm was pretty insular.
HATFIELD: Did a lot of buying --(both laugh)--.
SMITH: Where you involved in that?
HATFIELD: No, not really.
HATFIELD: No, no.
SMITH: Just, who are the stallions there? When you were there?
HATFIELD: We had Hansel.
HATFIELD: We had um, Shadeed was there. Actually Shadeed was, stayedhere while they were building the uh, stallion barn at Gainsborough. Because Rahy, one of the stallions here is owned half by the Maktoum's and half by Robert.
HATFIELD: So they already had a relationship. Um, we had ElusiveQuality, Quiet American. Elusive Quality is the sire of Smarty Jones.
HATFIELD: The first father and son team I've broken into the stallionbarn. --(Smith laughs)-- Um, you know, they had some good stallions. The first, they were really going to only raise and bred their own. 67:00Um, and the first step they took out of that box, Sheikh Maktoum, was Hansel. I mean he was a, didn't win the Derby, but he won the Preakness and the Belmont. And he was, he did, by far the premier horse that year and he was, did not turn out to be a good sire. So it really kind of gave them a bad taste. Um, you know, and when I left there I told Allen I said, you know, "I, if I'm going to be a stallion manager I'm going to have to go somewhere else." They built a whole other barn over there and never had a horse in it. They had renovated another barn and were going to have stallions up there and it never came to fruition and, and he said, "Oh Sandy we're gonna, we're going to do more, we are going to do more." And I said, "No you're not." You know, Sheikh Maktoum, this barn could blow down and nobody would really care. You know, we'd just go on with the other stuff we are doing because this is really not an integral part of Gainsborough. Now obviously since Darley's taken them over--
HATFIELD: --that whole scenario has changed but. Um, but it alsoallowed me a chance to get to know all the broodmares. 68:00
HATFIELD: And get to work with the yearlings and so um, you know, thatwas a great part of it.
SMITH: Um-hm. Um-hm.
HATFIELD: Great part of it.
SMITH: Did you have, to some extent more freedom with, with the matings?Were you involved in deciding which mares--
SMITH: --or any of that? I--
HATFIELD: And I don't do that here either.
SMITH: You just don't do that. Okay.
HATFIELD: Um-um. Nope --(both laugh)--.
SMITH: Don't want to.
HATFIELD: No. I'll get your mare bred when she comes to the breedingshed but, you know, I just, and I'm not a pedigree person.
HATFIELD: I'm just not. Um, I mean, I can certainly look at a horse andsay I don't think you should bred that horse to that horse because she toes in and he toes in.
HATFIELD: You know, I, but as far--
SMITH: --common sense--
HATFIELD: --yeah, but as far as pedigree's it is all Greek to me and Ireally, it doesn't interest me.
SMITH: Hmm. Okay.
HATFIELD: I mean I like working with horses.
SMITH: What kind of crew did you have? Or team did you have, I don'tknow the right terminology is.
HATFIELD: At Gainsborough?
SMITH: Um-hm. In the barn.
HATFIELD: Um, when I first went there um, there was a young man thereby the name ofBill Drury who uh, had been there a long time. Um, he 69:00bleed blue as we said. Um, that was their color, blue, blue and white. And he really thought that he should have gotten the job. And uh, you know, when I went to work there he never acted that away. He was very good to me. He um, showed me the ropes, he helped me fit in and uh, he is now the stallion manager at Adena Springs. When Dan Hall called me and asked me if I knew of anybody. They were getting ready to stand stallions. I recommended Bill. Um, but he really, we worked together a long time. Steve Clark who is now, was the, got the stallion managers at Gainsborough when I left who's now at Darley. He and I had worked together at, at Spendthrift [Editor's note: worked together at Gainesway, not Spendthrift]. He was rubbing stallions when I was there. He's a, you know, a great guy. We've had really, really good people.
HATFIELD: You know, it's one thing about the stallion barn you have to70:00have a group of people that get along. Because when you are in the breeding shed, it, most of the time everything goes really well but if it doesn't um, you've got to have people who communicate and trust each other. Otherwise you're in a life threatening situation and you don't know who to listen to. So um, it's very dangerous in the stallion barn.
SMITH: What, what, where does the danger come from?
HATFIELD: Um, in the breeding shed.
SMITH: I mean, what's, what's the--
SMITH: --what are the things that could happen?
HATFIELD: What are the things that could happen? Oh, you could getkicked. A stallion manager died two years ago got kicked in the chest by a mare. Um, I've got, had my arm broken. Um, uh, had stitches in my head a couple years ago. Um, you know, when you, when you put a mare in a situation where she can't get away, she fights. She kicks, she bites, she rears up um, and all those things um, are very dangerous.
HATFIELD: Especially a maiden mare, you know, she's frightened, she71:00doesn't know what to do. And out in the wild, you know, she could run away um, we, we've got her restrained. And when you do that, they, they fight back.
HATFIELD: And uh, it can be very dangerous. You don't, we don't knowthese mares when they come to us, um. So and very, very rarely are you hurt by a stallion in there. Unless he's a biter, now you can have, you know, you can obviously can get hurt by one. But most of the injuries that happen in a breeding shed are, are caused by the mares.
SMITH: So was is easy at Gainsborough where you knew the mares more?
SMITH: No, okay. Still--
HATFIELD: --No you still have maiden mares, you still, still havemares that are mean, you still, I got kicked in the head when I was at Gainsborough. Um, and the mares that came to our stallions weren't all the mares that lived there, I mean, most, you know--
HATFIELD: --only 20% of the mares we bred down here come from--
SMITH: --that's right--
HATFIELD: --from the farm. And the same at, AT Gainsborough, you know,you still had outside mares coming to those stallions. So, I didn't 72:00know all the mares.
SMITH: What was uh, prior to coming here, what was one of the worstsituations you had to deal with in the breeding shed?
HATFIELD: Oh Lord, I couldn't even tell you --(laughs)--.
SMITH: Couldn't even think --(laughs)--
HATFIELD: I, you know, they all run together. You know I, you know Idon't know.
SMITH: Describe what's, what's a successful one when you feel like okaythis really went well.
HATFIELD: I mean yeah, I mean, you know, the mares good, she breaksdown, you wash her up, she goes over there, she stands, the stallion walks in, he breeds her and everybody goes home in five minutes. -- (Smith laughs)-- I mean, you know, the stallion for the most part is in the breeding shed for, for less than two minutes.
SMITH: Oh, okay. Okay.
HATFIELD: Yeah, it's not, there's really, there, we do have stallionswe would have to take outside and, and let them talk to the mares. And that's one of the fun parts is trying to figure out, you know, what, what the horse is like. What, you know, you have some stallions that walk in you better have the mare ready. And you have some stallions that want to come in and they want to talk to them and they want to look around and they want to, you know.
HATFIELD: So, you know, you, pa-, one thing you have to have, is you73:00have to have patience because as Dan Rosenberg said, "You can't push a rope." So if he's not ready, you know, you can't breed him unless he's ready.
HATFIELD: So you have to figure out what he likes so he will be ready tobreed when you take him in the breeding shed. Whether that means taking him out and-- I used Capote as a teaser the first year I was here.
HATFIELD: You know, his, his libido's horrible. Um, and I went to Danand I said , "Can I do it?" And he said, "If it's safe, yes." So I made it where it was safe and, and then from then on we have another stallion here now that we take outside and, you know, just let him talk to the mares and watch the mares come in and out and, you know, gets his blood pumping, gets him ready.
HATFIELD: So, the libido's very, fairly heritable, um.
SMITH: Oh really.
HATFIELD: Seattle Slew when he went to the breeding shed had terriblelibido. Capote's a Seattle Slew. Sl-, Slew o' Gold had terrible libido um, Seattle Song had terrible, another horse, a Seattle Slew horse I worked with, had a terrible libido. So.
SMITH: So when they have a terrible libido it just takes a little more74:00work?
HATFIELD: Right. --(laughs)-- Exactly, exactly.
SMITH: Okay. Okay well, why don't we, its 4 o'clock, why don't we stophere and then when um, when I can come back, we'll start back with uh, coming to Three Chimneys--
SMITH: --and you're experiences here and then I'm, I'll be listening tothe tape and I'm sure there will be some questions that I am going to want to go back and follow up on.
SMITH: And you can be thinking of some stories and some of the thingsyou want to share. Okay.
HATFIELD: --(laughs)--The stories I can't tell.
[End of interview.]