SMOOT: Testing, one two three, testing, one two three.

[Pause in recording.]

SMOOT: Dr. Bosomworth, would you tell me something about the relationship between the University of Kentucky Medical Center and the community college?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, we, we had a good working relationship with the, uh, Community College System. And, uh, uh, with Stanley Wall, our relationship is an excellent one. We work together, uh, a lot, uh, in the president's, uh, team. And, uh, uh, we started a couple of, 1:00uh, two-year programs when I first, uh, came to Kentucky. One of them was in my department in anesthesiology, respiratory therapy, and, uh, it became obvious that, that it, it wasn't an academic program, it was just a technical program. But, it, it, it should be an academic program and, uh, uh, so we moved it over to the Community College System, and it's been there ever since and it's been very successful. They've produced a lot of, uh, uh, uh, respiratory therapists. Say- -similar things happened, uh, if my memory is correct, uh, with, uh, a, uh, dental technology program.


SMOOT: Dental laboratory technology.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, right. And, so there was never any, uh, rivalry between the two organizations. It, it was always cooperative and beneficial to, uh, students an-, and to the University, frankly, because, uh, it was a better place to house them. We, we weren't in a position to run a true academic program, uh, in the medical center in, in those areas. We didn't have the space and, and things and all the equipment, and so on and so forth. It, it made very good sense to make those kinds of moves. And then, uh, when we were involved with, uh--I wasn't personally receptive----------(??) uh, with, uh, the start-up 3:00of the, uh, nursing, uh, program for a two-year, um, uh, RN degree in nursing and, uh, and that, uh, spread to other colleges. That one was, and still is a very successful and important program because there's a continued shortage of nurses.

SMOOT: Now I understand that, uh, was, uh--Dean Marsha Day was involved with that, certainly--


SMOOT: --as well as Marie Piekarski.


SMOOT: Did you work with either of them, personally?

BOSOMWORTH: Oh, well yes, all of the time, yeah.

SMOOT: Yeah.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah.

SMOOT: In the creation of this particular program, you worked closely with them?

BOSOMWORTH: Well, yeah, I mean, I was, I was, uh, a participant, but they were the major players.

SMOOT: Okay.

BOSOMWORTH: You know, I, I was sort of on the sidelines, sort of cheering them on.

SMOOT: (laughs) Okay, uh, what is your earliest recollection actually 4:00of, of the creation of the program--it was Lexington Technical Institute, at first, came online in 1965, a year after most of the community colleges were actually incorporated into the university.


SMOOT: Did the medical center play a big role in actually bringing about the creation of the Lexington Technical Institute with these programs that you're citing?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, it, uh--well, yes, most of them. Now, I, I, I mean, I did some things personally, but there were other people who were working on it and making it happen along with with, uh, uh, the receptive, uh, administration in the, uh, at, uh, LTI, but--

SMOOT: Jack Oswald, I guess, uh, was the, was the big player? Uh--

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, he was, he--in 1964, he, he, led the drivers to, uh, found the Community College System, and, and that, of course, included 5:00the Lexington campus, too.

SMOOT: And Dr. Willard's role?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, well, he, he was, uh, uh, involved, to a degree, up, up until, uh, 1969-70. Now, uh, he was certainly supportive of, of, of the programs there, and, and I don't know the details; I wasn't in the central administration when he was representing the medical center in that kind of interaction. But, uh, I, I know that he supported the development of the nursing program and, and some of the others that eventually became a reality there, and, uh, he, he was a, uh, team 6:00builder kind of leader. Um, he could see the benefit of adding, uh, strength at the two-year level to the health care delivery system an-, and so, I feel quite certain that he did exactly that and worked with the people in the Community College System.

SMOOT: Do you know anything of the role of Al Morris?

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, yeah, we were close friends, uh, from the time he was dean and then--and when he was an assistant vice president in the president's office. He was dean of the dental school and, and he played a role in the, uh, dental technology program. And, and, uh--

SMOOT: Dental hygiene as well?

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, yeah, yeah.


SMOOT: Joe Hamburg, uh, allied health--


SMOOT: --professions. Was he also involved himself with this development?

BOSOMWORTH: Very much so. He, he was, uh--what, what he wanted to do, it took a while to get it accomplished, but--was to have, uh, a, a two- year program in, in the Community College System that could, uh, fit completely into four-year programs in the medical center and beyond, uh, without the, uh, loss of credit hours, accrued credit hours.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

BOSOMWORTH: In the beginning, that wasn't the case, uh, that the, uh, acceptance of community college credit towards a more advanced degree in the university, generally, and in our case, specifically. It took 8:00some work. We had to--I had to appear before the senate and try to get, uh, support for doing it, and they weren't originally terribly receptive, but eventually, they realized the significance of, of, uh, getting the programs together, so that there would be a natural and seamless progression for students to, uh, go on to advanced work in the--their particular area of interest.

SMOOT: About when did you have to do that, the appearance before the Senate?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, well, it would be, uh, in the early seventies. I, I don't remember. I, I am sorry, I don't remember the exact time.

SMOOT: Yeah, that's fine, okay. How is--


BOSOMWORTH: I, I--when we did the, uh, uh, respiratory therapy thing, I, I did make an appearance there on that one, but that was the program I was moving myself. Yeah.

SMOOT: (clears throat) What was the general impression, uh, of people in the medical center to the quality of graduates from these programs?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, well, uh, according to some people, there may have been some doubt in the beginning, uh, but, but, uh, af-, after relatively a short time, but I, but I would say that there was a high degree of acceptance of those people, and, and a recognition, uh, that, that we needed them as employees and we wanted to give them an opportunity for clinical experience in the medical center, which helped us in 10:00the recruitment of those students as, as employees and, and also, we worked with them, uh, on the--we, we got involved in starting, uh, rural health care. And, uh, the people in those units--which there were seven, uh, sort of headquarter units throughout Kentucky--uh, uh, were facilitators in getting the, uh, health-related components in the Community College System moving and supporting and backing them up with people from the medical center to do consultation and stimulation of their development.

SMOOT: A lot of this was actually relatively new, wasn't it, when, when 11:00these programs were coming on?

BOSOMWORTH: Oh, yeah! Yeah, the, the, uh--we were early in, in, uh, in the development of the, well, the Community College System and also, in, uh, uh, the, uh, development of the academic component related to health care in the Community College System. And, I w--I personally was encouraging that one. Some of the people you mentioned before, uh, Al Morris, uh, Joe Hamburg particularly were strong----------(??)--

SMOOT: Did you work closely with the administration of the community college itself? Uh, the earliest, uh, administrator there was Edsel Godbey then, uh, Charles Wethington--



BOSOMWORTH: I, I did a lot of things with Charles, uh, uh--all of the 12:00minimal contact with, uh, uh, Godbey.

SMOOT: Okay. And, let's see, after, uh, Dr. Wethington, uh, we have people like, uh, um, Dr. Archer, Dr. Boyd, Dr. Price.


SMOOT: These are other names that, uh, I trust you're--


SMOOT: --somewhat familiar with.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, I, I did, I did a little with them, but, but not as much as I did with Charles.

SMOOT: ----------(??)

BOSOMWORTH: And, uh, we were friends at that time and, and we communicated frequently, and he was, uh, receptive to, uh, ideas that might be played on the table for consideration, and he was effective in getting, uh, financial support and funding from the state for the development.

SMOOT: When you became, uh, vice president chancellor, if I am 13:00remembering correctly--


SMOOT: --um--

BOSOMWORTH: --it was 1970.

SMOOT: Yes. Um, did you work primarily from that position with the head of the Community College System when it came to new program development in the community college, or did you work more closely with the administrator of the community college itself, or was there some other avenue you, you took?

BOSOMWORTH: I, I worked with the community college, but my, my style of doing that was to have a preliminary discussion. See whether there was receptivity in developing someone something, and then to get the people who are really at the core, helping it happen, working on it. And, and so, I wasn't in with the h--head trying to do something myself, uh, uh, 14:00but I was encouraging them--(Smoot coughs)--to be participants.

SMOOT: Are there any particular programs you wanted that were not brought on online?

BOSOMWORTH: If there were, I don't remember them.

SMOOT: Huh. Did you see the nursing program as a model, uh, on a national level? You mentioned that it was very important to the development--


SMOOT: --uh, to the two-year program coming out of the tradition where the hospitals actually trained nurses for so long--


SMOOT: --a lot of changes were taking place in nursing education at that time, wasn't there?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, there, there was some consternation about whether a nurse could be trained to perform RN duties in two years. It turned out not to be justified, but, but there was, uh, some discussion in some areas. Not, uh, not with me particularly, although I knew about 15:00it, uh, uh, but nationally, and, and the, uh--I think the American Hospital Association wasn't too secure with it. They liked their arrangement, their, their three-year program for hospital-paced nursing apprentice. Not, uh, uh--that too passed pretty easily, and, uh, people began to demonstrate that they could perform. (Smoot coughs) One of the def--of the deficiencies to nursing education was the, the, the preparation of nurses at both the two-year and four-year level. Was not, uh, clinically, uh, complete. They, they were ac-- 16:00academically prepared, but you couldn't just graduate from a two-year or a four-year program and walk onto a hospital ward and start working. They had. they had to be coached, and we, we had a special program in the med center, which they were coached and supervised for about six months before they got full, uh, responsibilities.

SMOOT: Now, was this after or during their training?

BOSOMWORTH: After training.

SMOOT: (coughs) Something along the lines of a, uh--

BOSOMWORTH: It was not at the expense of, uh, University Hospital.

SMOOT: Something like an apprenticeship of sorts?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, inter--

SMOOT: An internship.

BOSOMWORTH: Intern, mini-internships, probably, yeah.

SMOOT: And were they receptive to this training?

BOSOMWORTH: Oh, yeah. I--they realized very quickly that they weren't, 17:00weren't--couldn't step up and take charge of an intensive care unit or, or even bed patient in intensive care or operating room. One of the interesting problems, which existed at the beginning, was the, uh, organized nursing, particularly at the baccalaureate level, never really supported, uh, uh, the, training of, of operating room nurses. Um, the--they didn't block it, but they didn't do anything to facilitate and they didn't train their own graduates, uh, to be effectively working in the operating room.

SMOOT: Now, now you'll excuse me if that sounds rather peculiar to me.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, I know. It did to me too. (both laugh)

SMOOT: Okay. Well, what was the rationale behind that, on their part?


BOSOMWORTH: Well, they thought it was a, uh--outside of the realm of nursing, and that it was a technical, technical, uh, uh, endeavor and nursing was trying to get, uh, professional stature and, and recognition. You know, their view was that OR nursing wasn't really supportive of that goal; it was a mistake, uh, but, uh, I don't know whether they still really corrected that or not. There may be some places--I, I don't know what's going on now; there are several doctors you'd have to talk to. We never had a problem getting nurses, but they were mostly, uh, hospital-trained nurses that worked in our operating 19:00rooms.

SMOOT: You worked most closely, I guess, with the, uh, folks in respiratory care?


SMOOT: Now, can you tell me a little bit more detail about that program and then your impression of that program?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, yeah, uh, the--there was very little respiratory therapy, uh, uh, patient care in the country. When I came to Kentucky, there was no technician in the central Kentucky area that knew how to operate a respirator. And, and we were getting patients on respirators. (coughs; Smoot laughs) I had worked with a corpsman in the Navy at Great Lakes Naval Hospital and, and when I was an anesthesiologist there, trained him, uh, to do respiratory therapy.


SMOOT: Was that in Ohio, Great Lakes?

BOSOMWORTH: No, it's in Illinois. It's one of the biggest naval stations in the United States.

SMOOT: Okay.

BOSOMWORTH: And, uh, it was a big hospital with twelve hundred beds there, and, and we had, uh, some of the first respirators there, uh, and a consultant who had designed a respirator. His name was E.------- ---(??) Merck, and he designed the Merck respirator.

SMOOT: Okay.

BOSOMWORTH: And, and, uh, nobody in the--at the naval hospital knew how to operate it. I, I, I had used one at Ohio State on a number of occasions there. So, so I decided I would train this unit to, to do it, and, uh, and, and, uh, to do oxygen therapy, and to do the usual 21:00kind of things. That--but he was just a high school graduate, who was a corpsman.

SMOOT: Okay.

BOSOMWORTH: And, uh, the, the field eventually started moving on to the point where it was obvious that it should be a two-year program, and he couldn't qualify for heading up a two-year program, so we had to find a, uh, a person, person who had, had two-year training, and, and, and we let some of our anesthesia faculty help with the program in order to get it started. And, uh, I actually taught some classes and, and other people did too. And, and, uh, so that's how that got 22:00started, and, and, it, it a--attracted, uh, a lot of students, a lot of students were interested in it. It wasn't that big, I, I, I would say probably about, uh, fifteen, eighteen students, something like that, spread over a two-year period. But, they had their, they had their laboratory in the community college, but they had their clinical training in the medical center. Mark would supervise the fine, um--the anesthesiologist faculty.

SMOOT: Do you remember any of the, uh, early trainees in that program? (coughs)

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, well, the fellow that ran the program originally was Tom Murquette. He was the fellow at the, at the, uh, uh--I can't recall 23:00people's names, I'm sorry.

SMOOT: It's a lot of names over time.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, well--(Smoot laughs)--they've sort of faded from my memory, but, uh, uh, they, they, you know, they were what I would say were typical community college students, who didn't necessarily aspire to being something more that that--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

BOSOMWORTH: --but what we ended up eventually doing was making a connection with those students to an additional two years at UK, and training in intensive care and, and we did that with, uh, nursing students as well.

SMOOT: We have, uh, one of our administrators now, uh, Tri Roberts, 24:00Francis is his, his name.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, I know who you mean.

SMOOT: Yeah. Now, he was, he was one of the earlier ones, actually had a four-year degree and then went back and got the training--


SMOOT: --in this program--


SMOOT:--and ends up--

BOSOMWORTH: I remember him now.

SMOOT: --and, and ends up actually teaching very early on.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, he did.

SMOOT: Yeah.


SMOOT: I'm curious if you recall--if you would recall Tri. Um, speaks very highly of the association of the community college and, and the medical center.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah. Tri, he was a good one.

SMOOT: Um, there are other programs, technical programs that have come, uh, come online, uh, associated with the health professions. Uh, for example, um, nuclear medicine technology.

BOSOMWORTH: Right, right.

SMOOT: Uh, can you recall anything in particular about that program?

BOSOMWORTH: Well, uh, a little. Uh, the, the, uh, head of nuclear medicine in the medical center needed help--(laughs)--so, he, he wanted 25:00to see a training program developed that was certified, and so, he, he was the central player getting that going with the community colleges.

SMOOT: Okay. Uh, radiological technicians?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, uh,----------(??) chairman, uh, of the radiology department was--

SMOOT: It'll come to you.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah. Uh, anyway, he had the same problem, and he wanted to get it started then--and he was training just the same as I was doing, sort of people off the street in the hospital--(laughs)--to do it, because there weren't many people around that could do that.

SMOOT: Hmm. Improvising.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah. I, I actually had an interesting personal experience 26:00with that kind of thing when I was in medical school. In my sophomore year, I had a job at Grace Memorial Hospital, which was a chronic disease hospital affiliated with the University of Cincinnati. Now, uh, there were two of us that went out there----------(??)--------- -and, uh, we got room and board and fifty dollars a month, which was pretty good--(both laugh)--but, I'm, uh--we were on call every other night, but we weren't overwhelmed busy, because we were trying to study, as well as, uh, as do that job, but we did, uh, lab work, and we did x-rays, and we did surgical assistance in the operating room. 27:00Mostly on weekends for that, but, uh, uh--I'm--so I had, uh, some clearly significant personal experience in those fields, uh, not that I was well trained in them. I, I was pretty well prepared in, uh, laboratory work, because, uh, uh, our biochemistry department had, had a major emphasis on laboratory work, and we did all of the laboratory tests and we had to do them. That, that, that's where I--one of the tests we did ourselves was the blood glucose, and I, I had a positive blood glucose test for diabetes. That's when I was twenty-one--


SMOOT: All right.

BOSOMWORTH: --so I have had diabetes for a long time. But, uh, at, at any rate, uh, uh, those, those disciplines, uh, grew up, because there was a demand for people, and it wasn't just the med center, it was the other hospitals that needed people as well. A lot of the hospitals had been doing what we were doing in the beginning, which was sort of training whoever was available without any real, uh, curriculum. Although the program that we ran was, uh, accredited. And, and the graduates were, uh, a--a--accredited and passed an exam.

SMOOT: Are you referring specifically to the respiratory therapists?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SMOOT: And there is a national accreditation--



SMOOT:--for the program?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah. That's, that was started by the American Society of Anesthesiologists, but now, uh--so anyway, that's about how, how it evolved there.

SMOOT: All right, I know that in the beginning--(clears throat)--many of the, uh, programs in the community college actually ran out of the medical center; they, they, they had class sessions there.


SMOOT: And on the main campus of the university--


SMOOT: --for that matter, uh, until the Oswald Building opened.


SMOOT: Uh, was there ever a space issue, uh, not enough space for everyone's tastes, as it were?

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, well, there may have been, and I didn't know about it, but, uh, in, in, in the program that I was connected with, we had a 30:00conference room, an--and because the trainees were all in the operating room in the daytime and we didn't use the conference room until 4:30 or five at night, there was, uh, almost always space for that program to be accommodated, and that conference room could take about sixteen, eighteen people. Uh, and I think that was true of, of, uh, radiology. I know it was true of dental hygiene, uh, and, and the dental tech programs. They used the student spaces when the students weren't, uh, there in their spaces, because they had the equipment in there, but, uh, it met the needs of both, uh--the dental students, and the dental 31:00community college students.

SMOOT: Okay. I know that, uh, many people in the technical programs at the community college are rightly proud of the, uh, high rate of, uh, certification. The, uh--


SMOOT: --the large number of people who have been, uh, employed in their training programs, uh, around not only central Kentucky, but elsewhere.


SMOOT: Uh, did you see that these programs were going to serve as models for a larger community like, uh, the state of Kentucky and then even beyond the state of Kentucky?

BOSOMWORTH: Oh, yes. Uh, we had some people come visit those programs to see how they, uh, were working out. Uh, some of them came down from Ohio State, uh, Cincinnati, some came from Tennessee. Uh, so, there was interest in, in how it was working, and there was some recognition 32:00on their part, but they needed to get similar capabilities because they couldn't just depend upon a few universities to meet the manpower.

SMOOT: What about, uh, statewide? Uh, was the medical center involved in, in creating programs along these lines in other community colleges around Kentucky?

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, yeah, yeah. Uh, we had these, uh, rural health centers, yeah. And there were full-time faculty from the medical center there, and, and they were facilitators in connecting medical centers and, uh, consultants to the Community College System to help them get started, and, um, uh, and to encourage the development of those kinds of programs. Yeah, because they became an important part 33:00of the rural health, uh, initiatives that, that we gave out. That program was started--I was director when we first started that program. And, it--we started it, because, uh, there was an interest from the department of, uh, many areas in Kentucky to have, uh, enhancement of the education of, of rural health of students, and, uh, in, in a variety of disciplines, and, and to, and to encourage our own students in all of the five colleges, actually. It was a mandatory requirement that all medical center students had to take a, a four-week minimum, 34:00twelve-week maximum clinical vocation at one of these rural health centers. The idea behind that was to get the students interested in rural health and practicing in those locations, and we were able to get the state to, to provide financial support and scholarship support to stimulate that--to get the students to go into underserved rural areas of Kentucky. And that was the main reason that that program started; it, it was, uh, a good, uh, experience, and is still going today.

SMOOT: Um-hm. (clears throat) I always think of, um--with community colleges, I, I often times immediately link up, in my memory, uh, Kurt Deuschle and community medicine, and how he used the agricultural extension program as sort of a model--



SMOOT: --to reach out to the rural communities--


SMOOT: --of Kentucky. Did you use that, too?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, he, he, he was the--really, the founder of the rural health clinic. And, and, uh, uh, that was exactly the model that he was following. That's why he had faculty members fill the positions at each of these locations. And, we eventually got into a partnership with Louisville and they took, uh, uh, maybe three or four, or a couple locations there; there were nine eventually that, uh--so it still wasn't that many. (clears throat) Deuschle was a remarkable man. He had a, uh, um--he was very much liked by the faculty and by the 36:00students; he was a direct recruit of, uh, Dr. Willard's, and, uh, he had a vision and he had a vision about, uh, extending the campus of the university. Universities al--all of a sudden were statewide. Go out and look for them, sometimes out there, you don't find too many out there. But this, this was a real commitment to him.

SMOOT: Yes, he was certainly one of the most interesting people I met--


SMOOT: --when I was working with you--


SMOOT: --um, and, uh, I passed on some information about him to other medical professionals--


SMOOT: --back in West Virginia, uh, back in Marshall--


SMOOT: --when I was there. And they were fascinated by him, too.


SMOOT: We tried to bring him in as a speaker.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah.

SMOOT: He didn't particularly want to leave, uh, Kentucky.

BOSOMWORTH: Pardon me?

SMOOT: He did not particularly want to leave Kentucky.


BOSOMWORTH: No, he didn't.

SMOOT: That was, that was other circumstances.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah. (clears throat)

SMOOT: Of the administrators at the university, uh, is there any one president who shines as far as, uh, his commitment to these, uh, medical programs, not only the medical center, but also to the community college, or were they all pretty steady in their support, uh, of the medical community here?

BOSOMWORTH: Well, the president, when the Community College Systems was formed, as I mentioned earlier, was the high mover of making that happen. There was some consternation about it, because there was fear, uh, that diverting, uh, financial resources to--was going to diminish, uh, the financial resources to the Lexington campus and 38:00the medical center. Uh, and that, that was before my time in central administration, but I, I remember people talking about it. And, uh, to some extent, temporarily, that may have been true, but with long-term, it wasn't true. But, but, they, they wanted to get up and going with it. He was intense about getting it properly distributed in various locations throughout the state. So, uh, as I said previously, he, he, he was the central figure in making that happen. Uh, Dr. Willard was, uh, very encouraging about it. He was--he encouraged Dr. Deuschle to work with people in those locations, uh, uh,--let's see, who was the 39:00next president--

SMOOT: Singletary.

BOSOMWORTH: Singletary, yeah. Otis was, uh--(clears throat)--uh, supportive of the Community College System. He was very protective of it, and, uh, uh, when they started talking about taking community college away, he got very disturbed--(Smoot laughs)--about that.

SMOOT: Well, he can certainly do that. I remember, I'm remembering him too--


SMOOT: --and he could be quite imposing.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah. Uh, well, I, I, I still, to this day, don't know whether it was a good thing or not. I don't think it was a terribly good thing for the university, but it might have been a good thing for the Community College System, to be able to get the--an independent 40:00status negotiating directly with the council on higher education.

SMOOT: I'm not sure of the answer to that, either.


SMOOT: Uh, of course, I'm a UK graduate--


SMOOT: --and I wanted to continue that relationship--


SMOOT: --and so did most of the faculty at all the community colleges.


SMOOT: Uh, I think the vote was close to 90 percent in favor of staying with the university at our college.


SMOOT: Um--(clears throat)--Dr. Singletary obviously did a pretty good job of, of protecting.

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, he did.

SMOOT: Uh, what about Dr. Roselle, his successor? Was he also committed to the community college?

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, he was.

SMOOT: Okay.

BOSOMWORTH: Uh, although his focus was on trying to get--to ratchet up the academic statue of the, uh, Lexington campus primarily. And, and 41:00it was a shame that, that he, he, he made a miscalculation with the governor, with regard to, uh, uh, responding and, and sort of defending his positions in public against the Governor. Eventually, the Governor got him----------(??)----------which was too bad, because he, he, he was a superb person.

SMOOT: I think so, too. (clears throat) I always thought it was a bit more of the athletic department that was involved with that as opposed to the governor, but, uh, that may be a misconception on my part.

BOSOMWORTH: Well, if that was the case, I didn't know it. But, I did know that the governor was giving instructions to board members, so. (laughs)

SMOOT: Well, of course, the Governor at that time was--I guess would take to thinking that Wallace Wilkinson--


SMOOT:--was a very close friend of Charles Wethington's, wasn't he?



SMOOT: And wanted him to be president.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah.

SMOOT: ----------(??)----------interesting is, too, that that's where I was going next with this, anyway, was, uh, governors and the state, in terms of its, uh, support and particularly financial support. But, Oswald had trouble with, uh, Governor Nunn--


SMOOT: --and was, uh, essentially--

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, he was a pretty direct man. I, I got to know Oswald quite well, uh, because I, I, uh--h--his family members required medical attention, and if I remember correctly, I anesthetized family members ten times. (both laugh) So, I spend a fair amount of time with him. Uh, but, uh, I, I didn't do, do much with him on an administrative relationship. It was a professional relationship. But, 43:00uh, he, he, he, he did what he was brought to the university to do, and, uh, uh, and he did it well, but, he, he was the creative director, and, uh, it could be pretty challenging to some people, and he wasn't satisfied with the, uh, total of all the factors, and, so he was trying to do something about that at the same time he was trying to do something about the Community College System.

SMOOT: Well, there was one area where he had extensive experience with the California system.

BOSOMWORTH: Yes, uh, the, uh--I had known about him in California, 44:00because one of our, eh, former colleagues who was working in the medical center, the director of public affairs, was the executive vice president at Berkeley, uh, around the time Oswald was there.

SMOOT: Are you referring to Robert Johnson?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, yeah.

SMOOT: Let's stop for a second. Let me turn the, the tape.

[Pause in recording.]

SMOOT: (coughs) Could you tell me a little more about some of the other state administrations, and how they help or didn't help as much, perhaps as they could have, in terms of funding for, uh, the community colleges, as much as you can specify there, but to the health care community through the university particularly?

BOSOMWORTH: Well, I will start with, uh, with the person most people 45:00don't give much recognition to for starting the medical center: that was Bert Combs. Uh, Chandler got the recognition, but Bert got the money. And--(laughs)--they'd have never made it off the ground without him helping with financing it, but, uh--and so he was always interested in the medical center, as was his wife. And, uh, so, he even--after he was no longer governor, he was still on the sidelines, uh, helping out periodically, uh, in ways that most people never--barely knew. Uh, the, uh--stop--when you say state agencies, I don't know exactly what you mean.

SMOOT: Uh, well, I think of the legislature, primarily, since they are 46:00the ones who approve the funding.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, okay. Well, uh, the president's, uh, the president's scheduling were the principle contact with the state legislation, the vice presidents, including myself and Dr. Willard and others, we called periodically to testify on specific pieces and not to go and lobby in separate groups, uh, in competition with the general priorities of the university. We, we worked out the priorities of the university and the president's staff, and, uh, and that's what we lived with and that's what we supported, and, uh, uh, so I, I made, I 47:00made a number of appearances before legislative committees, but they were to explain what it was we were proposing and not to ask for some kind of new source of funding. Uh, and, and, uh, so, uh, we, we had a pretty good connection with the legislation. The person that was most helpful for many, many years with legislature was Tony Goetz. Yeah, I don't know if you talked to him, but if you want to find out about legislation, he is the person. And I mean, he knew the secretaries; he knew everybody and essentially lived over there for four months when they were in session. And the presidents, he used him for any--for 48:00every year--or every biannually, um, to represent the interest of the university when they were in legislation themselves.

SMOOT: So, it would be fair to style him as the chief lobbyist for the university?

BOSOMWORTH: Well, we didn't call him a lobbyist. He wasn't a registered lobbyist, but--

SMOOT: Chief representative, then, perhaps--


SMOOT:--in the absence of the president.

BOSOMWORTH: He was the information officer.

SMOOT: Information officer. Okay, um, all righty. Well, now I suppose since you as a vice president and chancellor would occasionally be called for legislative, uh, committees for testimony, so, too is, uh, the vice president or chancellor of the Community College System.


SMOOT: So, uh, Dr. Wall, Dr. Wethington.


SMOOT: Um, they would be----------(??)--

BOSOMWORTH: Those were the two people I worked with most of the time.

SMOOT: Okay. What can you tell me more about, uh, something more about 49:00Dr. Wall? Because I don't know a great deal about him.

BOSOMWORTH: Well, as you know, he just died recently--


BOSOMWORTH:--and I regret I had to miss visitation. He, he was, uh, a, a very substantial leader in a very quiet way, and, and he was liked by the faculty, and by the students. He paid attention to students, and to faculty, and his staff. And he had an interesting background that gave him a lot of experience before he became president of the, the college. And he, he, as much as anybody, uh, built diversified 50:00programs in the Community College System, and he had, uh, a vision of the future about where it should go. He wasn't a, a person who went around beating drums or anything, but he was capable of, uh, communicating with people and convincing people of, uh, what should happen and he was very effective and brilliant. He was a good friend of mine, and, uh, because the president met weekly with the vice presidents for usually two hours, we all got to know one another. And, and those sessions were not just devoted to discussion of our individual interests. They were devoted to, uh, a discussion of the, 51:00of the general health and well-being of the university, and he was, uh, an excellent contributor to that.

SMOOT: Was there ever a time when there was, uh, deep concern, uh, regarding the health and welfare of the university, generally and the community colleges, perhaps, in particular?

BOSOMWORTH: If there was, I didn't know about it, uh, there were, there were minor concerns about some specific things, but, but they weren't really, uh, significant to name. At least, I didn't know, if that was the case.

SMOOT: Did the--

BOSOMWORTH: Now, there was the time when, uh, uh, there was a discussion 52:00about the merger of UK and U of L.

SMOOT: I do recall--(Bosomworth laughs)--something along those lines. (laughs)

BOSOMWORTH: I sat in on some of those discussions. But, uh, uh, if university would have done it, it, uh, would have been supported by outside agencies including a council of education ----------(??)---- ------we, we had a, uh--I don't want to see this in print, but--(Smoot laughs)--the president asked me to do a, uh, plan, uh, for, uh, merger of the two medical centers, which I did, and the, uh, only person I ever showed it to was him. And they weren't really good but, uh, uh. it, it probably would have strengthened both institutions if they had 53:00done that. It would have, uh, to a degree, reduced some of the cost to both locations, but the two institutions will remain two different. We, uh, have a full-time faculty with a university-controlled practice plan, and they have a full-time faculty, and even the dean didn't know what was in the practice plan. And if people, uh, worked in other hospitals, some of them made enormous amounts of money, um, uh, uh, and the dean was thoroughly powerless in the institution. I can remember the time the chairman's surgery gave the medical school two million 54:00dollars. (both laugh)

SMOOT: Really?

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, and, uh, well, it, it's gradually gotten better, but they've wiped out a vice president over there trying to change it, and, uh, uh--he, uh, resigned because the medical school was too powerful. There, there, there are two powerful organizations in universities. Uh, one is the medical school and the other is the college of agriculture and, uh, it--you get those two organizations, or either one of them against you, you got trouble. Ohio State is the perfect example of that. The president of Ohio State knew that I served as a consultant, and he was trying to bring the practice plan into the 55:00university. And there were four of us that went out there and spent two days actually, and, uh, he decided to go ahead and bring it in and he had a physician on his board whose name was Lazarus, who was, uh, a member of the Lazarus department----------(??)--

SMOOT: Other rated department stores are huge.

BOSOMWORTH: Now he was selected as the chairman of this committee. They didn't put anybody on it from the medical school. And, uh, they, well, four people, and, and they wrote a report recommending what the president wanted to be, anyway. The end result of that was that the 56:00medical faculty raised the--and this was back in, uh, uh--that would be early seventies, uh, but, raised two hundred thousand dollars and wanted it back. (both laugh) He ran the President out of business.

SMOOT: Amazing.


SMOOT: Now I can see where the, the, uh--both of the schools--colleges, I should refer to them, had great power. Interestingly, you know, you're talking about the University of Kentucky, Ohio State are land grant institutions.


SMOOT: And, uh, they were all established at agriculture and mechanical, which was engineering. Now, the engineering schools don't have that kind of clout, though, do they?


SMOOT: Okay, and the medical schools, for obvious reasons, would have, uh, enormous--

BOSOMWORTH: Well, I mean, one of the things that contributes to the power is the university doesn't give much money; they have to earn it all.



BOSOMWORTH: And, uh, you know, the, the university's contribution to the financing of the medical faculty is about, uh, 60 percent. So, uh, figure, figure we're independent of the university, of the hospital and the faculty, uh, generating the revenue to operate the medical center and the research faculty generates the revenue to operate the research program. Now, the one good thing that Otis did was to, uh, take the income, uh, indirect expense income and, and redeploy it back into the research enterprise and not just spend it in the university general deployment money. A lot of universities do that; they spend 58:00it and, and, and that produced source of revenue, which was available for program development, which made it possible to ration it out to the research program in the university.

SMOOT: Is there anything that we have not touched upon regarding the relationship of the community college and its programs to the medical center that, that you would like to touch upon that I have not, that I have not brought up?

BOSOMWORTH: No, that's everything I can think of. There probably will be some things that I should be thinking of, but I'm not, uh, as I, uh, I said before, there's always been a good relationship ----------(??).

SMOOT: And you would, uh--is it fair to say you would characterize 59:00the, uh, community college programs and their influence has been very positive on the community--

BOSOMWORTH: Oh, absolutely.

SMOOT: --on our community?

BOSOMWORTH: Absolutely, and that was one of the reasons Otis wanted to keep them, because they had a powerful political effect, uh, on the state, and those people were connected to many members of the state legislature in one way or another, and, and, so it was a two-way street, but it was, uh, very beneficial to have the community college.

SMOOT: Well, let's touch on that, if we could just for a moment. We, uh, the presidents--this is the story I've always heard: the presidents of the regional institutions of regional universities have always very been upset that the University of Kentucky had control of community colleges.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, right.

SMOOT: That these were, uh, political in rows and there's all these 60:00various communities and they're sort of--they're invading with their, their territory and they wanted, at the very least, uh, they wanted them separated out totally, or to be affiliated with themselves, uh, in their own areas to get it.

BOSOMWORTH: To get it reassigned to them--

SMOOT: Yeah.

BOSOMWORTH: --yeah, that, that was a very constant theme--

SMOOT: Yeah.

BOSOMWORTH: --around these parts.

SMOOT: And would you suggest that there was a lot of truth behind the fact that the community colleges gave the university a tremendous amount of power and influence with them in communities where these, uh, colleges were located?

BOSOMWORTH: Of course.

SMOOT: And yet that's, uh, not necessarily a bad thing, is it?


SMOOT: As a matter of fact, I thought it was positive myself, in my community in Ashland.


SMOOT: Well, I guess, time will tell if this has been a good, uh, change.

BOSOMWORTH: Yeah, it'll probably take ten years.

SMOOT: At least that. Well, anything else you would like to say before 61:00I, I--


SMOOT: --free you? (laughs) I thank you very much, Dr. Bosomworth. Always a pleasure.

BOSOMWORTH: Okay, you too.

[End of interview.]

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