0:00

FOSL: --going.

H. WALLACE: Now, we know it's on.

FOSL: Okay, um, I've been working for a lot of years, really, on Anne's biography.

H. WALLACE: Oh really.

FOSL: And I, I kind of put it down and went to graduate school and got a Ph.D. in history.

H. WALLACE: Oh.

FOSL: Because I just didn't know what I was doing when I--

H. WALLACE: What history?

FOSL: I'm sorry?

H. WALLACE: What history?

FOSL: Well, U.S. history, sort of since the Civil War.

H. WALLACE: Oh, okay.

FOSL: (coughs) But I was actually working on it before that. In fact, I was--I figured Sally's--do the Dans (??) still own a place out here?

H. WALLACE: Yes. They--in Glenview.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: That's about, oh, four miles from here.

FOSL: Well, The Kentucky Foundation for Women, she gave a property to them. I forget the name of that place. But it has--

H. WALLACE: Yeah, that was--

FOSL: --a Prospect address.

H. WALLACE: That's right. That was Sally Bingham that did that.

FOSL: Um-hm. Right.

H. WALLACE: And, uh--

FOSL: Hi.

KIM: Hi.

H. WALLACE: Is that--oh, would you like coffee?

FOSL: [telephone rings] Um--I believe I'll take a little bit. Hi.

KIM: Hi.

H. WALLACE: Would you make us some coffee? Or?

KIM: I sure will.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. Oh this is--yeah.

1:00

FOSL: You guys--

H.WALLACE: You're so far ----------(??) you're on your way. That was Carla.

FOSL: As long as you don't jump up here.

KIM: I told you I wasn't going to make any 'cause I was cleaning it with vineagar. And it's got water in it ----------(??).

H. WALLACE: Oh okay.

FOSL: Oh woops.

KIM: If you use that water--

FOSL: Oh right.

H. WALLACE: By the way, this is Kim and this is Cate.

KIM: Hi Cate.

FOSL: Hi. Nice to meet you.

KIM: --nice to meet you--

H. WALLACE: Cate Fosl, Kim ----------(??).

KIM: It will be just a second.

FOSL: Oh, I'm in no rush. If it's, if it's a lot of trouble, I can do without too.

H. WALLACE: No trouble.

KIM: It won't take but a second.

FOSL: Anyway, so I've been working on this for a while. And Anne has been a--a mixed subject. You know, she--sometimes she's real cooperative, and then other times she feels really mixed about somebody writing about her.

H. WALLACE: Oh, really?

FOSL: But she's always, you know, told me what people to interview and- -this--this sort of thing. Where I've really bogged down is in finding 2:00people to interview who lived in Louisville in the late forties and early fifties. And now, you came back--it sounds like, around the time of their case, is that--?

H. WALLACE: Well, no. The trial was over by the time--

FOSL: It was over.

H. WALLACE: --I got back.

FOSL: Okay.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. And there really are not many people left--

FOSL: I know it.

H. WALLACE: --that were into that, you know?

FOSL: I just found George Yater. I didn't realize he was still alive. That he'd lived here then.

H. WALLACE: Oh.

FOSL: I guess I'm gonna try to--do you know him?

H. WALLACE: No, I don't know him.

FOSL: Well, he is--he used to write for the papers, I guess. And then he--he's kinda been like the--he's like the local history person. And he wrote a history of Louisville a few years ago that I've used a lot, but I didn't know who he was.

H. WALLACE: Well, that's good.

FOSL: And then this last trip, I just tried to call him yesterday and he's sick. But hopefully he's gonna try to call me back while I'm here.

H. WALLACE: Now we--[telephone rings] have--one person that might have been here ----------(??) John Ed Pearce.

FOSL: Oh. Huh.

3:00

H. WALLACE: So he might be hard to get to. [telephone rings] And--and please don't mention my name.

FOSL: (laughs) I won't.

H. WALLACE: Because--[telephone rings]--he's a little bit--he's very knowledgeable, very intelligent and a very good writer. Wrote editorials for the Courier-Journal for years and he just retired.

FOSL: Okay.

H. WALLACE: John Ed Pearce and his name's in the book. I have a--and he's real hard to deal with ----------(??).

FOSL: In what--in what way?

H. WALLACE: Well, he just may--

FOSL: Just persnickety person? (clears throat)

H. WALLACE: Not really, but he has his periods. ----------(??) J, I bet that's it. Thought it was (??) John Ed.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Well, it's--John--here we are, John Edmund--Starksville--he 4:00still has his office there. It's 561-1960.

FOSL: What are his politics like?

H. WALLACE: He's--fairly liberal.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: (coughs) Excuse me.

H. WALLACE: He--he's good ------------(??).

FOSL: Well, when I told Anne I might interview George Yater, she was saying that they had been friends. But I guess they really, you know, turned the back on them when they got--

H. WALLACE: A lot of people did.

FOSL: --turned--you know, when the case began. So--

H. WALLACE: You know that the, the fellow that was involved in the case, the black guy that--you know, you--can you get in touch with him.

FOSL: I have talked to him.

H. WALLACE: Oh, good.

FOSL: I had talked to him. And actually, he was the big help. Because he gave me a lot of clippings and a lot of things that--

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

FOSL: --I wouldn't neces--I--I've got all the Courier-Journal clippings, but all the things that you wouldn't necessarily have anymore, like flyers and that kind of thing.

H. WALLACE: Right. Yeah.

FOSL: He had a lot of that. So he gave me that, which was--

H. WALLACE: He's a very, very nice person.

FOSL: He's a wonderful person. And he still has a lot of hurt about that case. Really does.

5:00

H. WALLACE: Yeah. Well, ----------(??).

FOSL: Well, when's the first time you ever heard of the Bradens?

H. WALLACE: I--didn't hear of them until when I was living in Cuba. I heard through--well, I know when it was. When I came back for vacation from Cuba, the case had already begun, I think. They had brought charges against them. And then I went back to Cuba, and I didn't think too much about it. But then, when Carl was convicted, that's the first time I helped them any with--financially.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And it wasn't a big help, was just something.

FOSL: You just contributed towards the bail.

H. WALLACE: I sent him something for the--for legal fees and so on.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well, that's good.

H. WALLACE: And then I came back to Louisville after that, I believe after even Carl was released, when the Supreme Court said it wasn't 6:00sedition, I believe.

FOSL: Um-hm. That would have been in--1956.

H. WALLACE: Fifty-six? I guess that's about it.

FOSL: So was Carl born here?

H. WALLACE: Carl was born here. And--

FOSL: So that was '57.

H. WALLACE: Fifty-seven, yeah. Oh, Carla says she's behind a freight train over there. She's on her way.

FOSL: Okay. Well, that's fine, because she wouldn't remember this. (laughs)

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: But you--did you meet them when you came?

H. WALLACE: No, I didn't meet the Bradens for a long time. We knew each other. But I, I wrote letters to the editor about it, I guess. I can't even remember specifically whether I did that.

FOSL: I've got some letters to the editor of yours. But I think they're more recent than that.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I mean they were back--I know you had written when Carl died, I guess.

7:00

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah. Well, I remember that when he was exonerated.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Because my father wrote an editorial about it. And my father was a segregationist.

FOSL: And what was his name?

H. WALLACE: Tom Wallace.

FOSL: Tom Wallace.

H. WALLACE: And he was editor of the--of The Louisville Times. At that time, he was editor emeritus.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: But he still wrote--I think--it wasn't an editorial, it was a column. And he--he didn't think Braden did the right thing at all.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: But he thought that constitutionally no--there was nothing anybody could do about it, that he had every right to do it. He just thought it wasn't the thing to do because he was a segregational racist. His father was a slave holder. You know, it took him a long time to come around. In fact, he never did, but--he improved towards the last. But he said that--

FOSL: So he probably knew Carl, then, though, if he was--

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah. Yeah, he knew him. Right at that time, I was- 8:00-after Carl was born and Sharon was born and Naomi was born, we had so many children around here, I don't remember a whole lot of things outside the home.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: But I do remember writing to, to Anne and, you know, when Carl was--in court. And that's how we got started to acco-, correspondence from Havana to, to Louisville.

FOSL: Oh, is that right?

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Okay.

H. WALLACE: Personally.

FOSL: So you kind of first got to know her in the mail? Well she--

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --used to write some long letters, though. And she wrote you long ones--

H. WALLACE: I don't remember her writing any very long ones. But she, she did cooperate, you know, and she was helpful and telling me what was going on. ----------(??)

FOSL: So you just had a kind of immediate sense that they ----------(??)?

H. WALLACE: Oh yes.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: From the beginning. I told her that if they convicted him, well the whole system was wrong. She ----------(??).

9:00

FOSL: And did you hear--I mean I guess you kept up with other Louisvillians while you were in Cuba. Did you hear about the kind of uproar the case had caused?

H. WALLACE: No. I knew about the uproar because when I was here on--on vacation, I--but I didn't really have many friends in Cuba. I just didn't have ----------(??) in the United States or in Louisville. Although I grew up here, I went to school in Virginia and school in Lexington. And I never worked here. I worked in Lexington and Cincinnati.

FOSL: Where in Virginia? Where'd you go to school?

H. WALLACE: Woodberry Forest.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: That's in Orange, near Charlottesville.

FOSL: Oh.

H. WALLACE: About thirty-five miles from Charlottesville.

FOSL: You know, I live in Roanoke.

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah?

FOSL: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah, I--met a good many Woodberry students from Roanoke. So I didn't have a close connection here. I knew people, but mostly from my early years, before I went, went--before I even went away to high school.

FOSL: (clears throat) Huh.

H. WALLACE: I went to Kentucky Military School for a couple years, to 10:00Woodberry for two years.

FOSL: So when you came back from vacation, what did you hear? I mean, other than the facts of the case, just about, you know, there were all these rumors I've heard. I guess what I'm trying to get to is, you know, there's all these rumors you heard about--like white liberals throwing their books in the Ohio River and that sort of thing. You know, it's a--kind of a hysteria about it, you know?

H. WALLACE: Yeah, that kind of bypassed me. (laughs) The year I came home I was on the farm.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And didn't associate with many people.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: The only people I saw were the ones around, around here, the farmers and the people that run the Prospect store, and things like that. And so I didn't have much discussion. That's why I told you on the phone I didn't think I'd be very helpful, because I really wasn't in the middle of it.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well, when did you actually get to know Anne and Carl? Maybe the open house movement (??)?

H. WALLACE: Well, I'll tell you, anything that was worthwhile here, 11:00that, that you attended, Anne and Carl were there. You know?

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And we did have the open housing for--night after night for quite a while. And of course they were in that. And--I can't remember the other issues that came up, but if it was a liberal issue, they were there.

FOSL: Maybe the Fountain Fairy sit-ins? They--

H. WALLACE: Yeah, I didn't go to the Fount-, I was somewhere else, but that was part of it. We just--when you went to, to any kind of a gathering, if it were pro-liberal, pro-rights of minorities and so on, especially, Anne was there. But it was--you know, Carl died, I've forgotten when.

FOSL: Seventy-five.

H. WALLACE: Was it that late?

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: I remember going out to the--to Anne's house the morning after he died. I think I was the first one out there. ----------(??)- 12:00--------- Seventy-five?

FOSL: Yeah. Yeah. Well, she's talked a lot about--oh, how would you call it? The, the way that she was ca-, considered controversial, even among liberals and leftists here in Louisville.

H. WALLACE: Well, before she was accused--

FOSL: ----------(??)

H. WALLACE: --generally accused of being communist--

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: --then some of the so-called liberals, and I say the rib-, liberal is a person who leaves the room when the fight starts, you know?

FOSL: Right. (laughs)

H. WALLACE: They're not the--a real--they're not really leftist liberals.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: They're kind of--drugstore liberals, really.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And, and they were--appeared--being enmeshed in the kind of 13:00McCarthyism psychology that was going on at that time. In other words, yes, we're for this, we're for education ----------(??). But we don't want to be associated with people who are to the left of this, in other words, who are suspected of being communists.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And I was one of the ones who suspected of it.

FOSL: Right. I can tell that from that article, yeah.

H. WALLACE: And I couldn't care less, but I had a different situation. I was financially independent. Really can't--I wasn't gonna lose a job--

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: --or, or go with my resume and try to get a job. And they said that, "Oh, he's communist." To me, you know they talk about ex-communists sometimes(??). If a guy is a communist, he, he is a communist from then on. That thing about being an ex, no.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: He should--never was a communist. That--that's the main thing. And I think to be a communist, or somebody say, "He is a 14:00communist," is not be a member--or she--have to be a member of the party.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And I would have never joined the party because the, the party was restrictive. It's, you know, it was more or less you have to follow the line.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And although I follow the line in many instances, that's not in all of them. So there--that wouldn't have been acceptable for--

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: --for the Communist Party. But it didn't bother me that that was my reputation, you know. I never denied it ----------(??).

FOSL: Well, how active was the Communist Party here in Louisville? Could you--as you--as you understood it?

H. WALLACE: It was very--a very few people were in it who really claimed party membership. I think it did--I'm not sure about that. But they had a membership. And oh, Gus Hall visited here one time. And we--I and many other people who perhaps were party members or weren't party members went out to talk to him.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And I enjoyed that talk as much as anybody I've ever talked 15:00to. The guy was really smart. And I remember he said when I--it was-- just before the election. Now, I've forgotten which election. He said, "Well, who do you think is gonna be elected president?" Of course, he was running.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And I said, "Well, I think you're (laughs) gonna be elected. And he thought that pretty funny. (laughs) But--you know, he was kind of ----------(??).

FOSL: Well, I know in '72, I think he did run in '72. And it--'72 was the year that Anne came out as a CP elector.

H. WALLACE: Oh yes.

H. WALLACE: Oh, I, I was a CP elector, too.

FOSL: Oh, were you?

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Yeah, she wrote a big thing in the paper about it.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: About "why I chose to do this."

H. WALLACE: Why, sure. I--they had a right to be on the ballot.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And if other people were afraid for legitimate reasons, if they'd lose their job or whatever, the people who could come out and say, "Yes, I think he should be on the ballot," doesn't mean you're a communist. Means the fact that people who want to run for office should be able to do it. That's about it.

16:00

FOSL: Well, how would you describe--your sympathies with Anne's politics? Did you guys ever differ on issues or--?

H. WALLACE: Never. I was probably somewhat to the left of Anne. Because--

FOSL: Really? In what sense?

H. WALLACE: Well, I, I think that--I was, perhaps, mistaken. I was-- more in favor of what the Soviet Union was doing, and what the movement in other countries was, so I-- and Anne didn't get into it very much. But--I never found her what I would call very leftist.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Anne was a true liberal. The true liberal doesn't leave the room, you see, (laughs) when the fight starts.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And she stayed in. She, she would--she didn't care what people thought and so on. She did what she thought she should do, which was what she thought was right. And--I can't remember ever having a disagreement with her on, on her politics. She taught me a 17:00lot. And then a lot of the things that she did back, I realized were worthy causes.

FOSL: Um-hm. Well--how would you describe the climate for people who thought like yourself, like around that time, when you returned to Louisville? Here, as oppo-, like in the United States, of course, it was all just pretty, pretty repressive in the fifties.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: But how would you place Louisville in that regard?

H. WALLACE: Well, I thought that Louisville--Louisville tries to pretend it's a big city and so on, but it's really rather a backwater place, you know. Politically speaking, especially. And--I never felt that there was any possibility of a real leftist movement here.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Because it--this is not like New York, where there was--

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: --for a time. But this is sort of a isolated area.

18:00

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: And--and there was not much possibility of a real, truly leftist movement here where they could elect anybody. Or really, where they made much impression on anybody.

FOSL: Right. I guess those left-wing unions for a while had some power here in Louisville, but that was while you were gone.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. I--

FOSL: Little bit earlier.

H. WALLACE: Yeah, I don't--

FOSL: Or they seemed like they had some kind of clout, you know, before the CIO split.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah, they finally did. It very--you know, when McCarthy got in everybody was, you know, they were on tiptoes. They were afraid of ----------(??) getting on his list.

FOSL: Well, how would you--you know, sort of place Anne in terms of the contributions she has made to this community? You know, remember, after the case, there was all that--like they had just gossip--they had like wrecked race relations and that sort of thing, you know.

H. WALLACE: No, I think that they--she, I think--now Carl was--while he 19:00was active, he was just as good as she was.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: He was, he was--

FOSL: Sure.

H. WALLACE: And--I think she is the person to whom we owe an awful lot of what's been done here.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: In the integration of the schools and, and the whole climate of racial relat-, racial relations. And she did it in such a diplomatic way. She was not diplomatic if challenged, but she tried to--she was a persuasive person. Uh, Carl was a little more abrupt.

FOSL: Right. I, I--everybody says that.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: But she had that story about how he would write like a, you know, a one paragraph letter, just like cursing somebody out.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And then she would stay up the whole night writing a twelve-page letter trying to make up with them. (laughs)

H. WALLACE: She was a writer ----------(??) back then. No, but she 20:00did this--she was certainly the leader in this community and it is a conservative community. And therefore, she had a doubly hard job--

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: --to get anything done. And it's hard to remember all the issues in which she was in.

FOSL: Sure.

H. WALLACE: But if it were, to my mind, a worthy issue, she was there.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: You know. And she is today.

FOSL: Oh yeah.

H. WALLACE: She'd go anywhere. (laughs) Whatever's going on, she's there.

FOSL: Yeah. I was just reading--looking at that Louisville Magazine. I've never seen that magazine. So--but the latest issue of it--

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --or a recent issue of it talks about Central High School and how there's been a big--I mean, it's not even full, but they won't let more African-American students in there.

H. WALLACE: Right, right.

FOSL: And, you know, she was in that--

H. WALLACE: Right.

FOSL: --in on that struggle.

H. WALLACE: She gets in an awful lot of more things than I do. I always feel I have the excuse I don't have time for all of the things. I want to go to Frankfort against the death penalty here. I think it's, uh, that Peace ----------(??) issue, next, or maybe it's this week. I'm 21:00sure she'll be there. And, uh, of course she is--has been all, all against the death penalty.

FOSL: Well, throughout the years, would you say that you all were friends, personal friends?

H. WALLACE: Very good friends. And I've always been a--she has been my mentor. I've always been a great admirer of, of, of both. But of course, in recent years, it's only been Anne. And, uh, by this--can't think of anybody I've ever known that has done more for the people of this country than she has.

FOSL: Well, um, talking about their marriage a little bit, like when you first got to know them in the late fifties, early sixties, did you see Carl as like the leader? Or was it--hi!

H. WALLACE: Oh, there's Carla!

C. WALLACE: Hi.

[Pause in recording.]

FOSL: Actually, I was--let me just--you want me to just--

22:00

C.WALLACE: Go ahead.

FOSL: --go ahead? I was asking him about their marriage, about how much Carl seemed to be sort of in the driver's seat, or if, you know, how influenced she was by Carl, or how--you know? You know what I'm saying? Was it--did it look like an unusual marriage in terms of how egalitarian it was?

H. WALLACE: You know, I, I--frankly, I just never clued into anything on that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: When I--I saw them together very little.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And, um, I know they came home--we were living over on--that other house here, the house that now--occupied by Carla and where she was born. We were living there where she was born. They came out there. And that must have been in the--about 1957--nine. Along in there.

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: And--the only thing I thought about was they got along fine. And, and Carl maybe spoke up a little more.

23:00

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: He was a little more--yeah. He, uh, he used, uh, more forceful terms in denouncing people and, and movements than she did.

FOSL: Because that's another thing--you know, I'm trying to get a sense of them together.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Because a lot of her life has been spent, you know, since he died, very independently. But a huge part of her activism, you know, was-- they were a pair. They were--

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah, after he was fired from the Courier-Journal especially.

FOSL: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: Um, do you know they fired him down there because of all his politics? When he was so-called convicted ----------(??)? And even editors down there that--people on staff said it was a ------------(??) thing for the Binghams to have done--

FOSL: They all--

H. WALLACE: --to fire him. Uh--

FOSL: Although there's others that said it was courageous of them to keep him on throughout the trial. You know, plenty people tried to get them to fire him then.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. Well, that was--they were looking for an out, the Binghams were.

24:00

FOSL: I'm sure they were.

H. WALLACE: And I guess you have to give them credit for waiting that long, but if they waited that long, they should have seen it through.

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: But then after all, he was exonerated.

FOSL: Right. Well, then he tried to get his job back and they wouldn't give it to him, said he couldn't be objective anymore.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. You, you know more about it that I do. But I remember, a fellow who became managing editor of it told me he just thought it was disgusting, what the Binghams had done. And he didn't sympathize with Carl at all--

FOSL: Right.

H. WALLACE: --politically. They said he was a good reporter, good copy reader, copy desk man.

FOSL: Sure. Yeah, I said to any--or--are any of these folks maybe still around?

H. WALLACE: No. No. Uh, Barry--I don't think Barry Bingham had much to do with the paper then, the one that survived.

FOSL: Right. I think that's right.

H. WALLACE: He might be a little hard to get through to. He's kind of a, a recluse in a way.

FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm. Well, um, I guess one thing that Anne has 25:00mentioned, too, is Mark Ethridge, I guess, had played a pretty big role.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I mean, he was the one that really got her that job. That's the reason--

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --she came to Louisville.

H. WALLACE: That's right, yeah.

FOSL: And he kind of did stand by them.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: But I guess he was out of the country when the decision was made, very conveniently so, I guess.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

KIM: Sorry, I needed to clean that ----------(??) a couple of times. I didn't know if you could even hear.

H. WALLACE: Well, thank you so much.

KIM: Carla, do you want some coffee? Or I have some of that water in there.

C. WALLACE: That's okay. I've got some.

KIM: Here you go dear, I didn't know what you like. So there's your food.

FOSL: Thanks.

KIM: I'll just ----------(??).

H. WALLACE: Okay.

FOSL: Here, let me pause it.

[Pause in recording.]

FOSL: It will probably be total of about four years.

H. WALLACE: Okay. It must--going to be one hell of a book when it comes out.

FOSL: Yeah, I hope so. You know, this person has more paper than anybody in the whole world. I mean she has literally kept--

C. WALLACE: I always worry about fire in the house, I just --------- -(??).

FOSL: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: Oh, really?

FOSL: A lot in wools (??). Well, I was over here with her August, that 26:00August of '96, and spent two weeks like just cleaning out a bunch of stuff out of her house. And we took--

C. WALLACE: She must have been thrilled.

FOSL: She seemed happy. She was reluctant to let me do it, but--

C. WALLACE: Oh, of course.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: Yeah ----------(??) after that.

FOSL: --but I just got twenty-three boxes of stuff that I took with me back to Virginia.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: And then thirty-five boxes of stuff we sent up to her archives collection in Wisconsin. And I'm not kidding you. Except for that one room, you couldn't see there was a dent in it.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: It was amazing. She told me she still had been using that room. Yeah, well let me ask you a few questions, since you--

C. WALLACE: All right.

FOSL: I'm not sure what your time is like. I don't want to take up too much here. But--okay, so you grew up in Louisville? In a--

C. WALLACE: I grew up part in Louisville and part in--Amsterdam, Holland--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: --where my mother's from.

FOSL: Right. Well, I--I saw the magazine article. Anne suggested I read that, about you and your dad. Before I came out here I just thought I'd stop by the library and took a look at it this morning. 27:00And, I mean, there are those pictures of you on the picket line. But I--I assume you spent enough time in Louisville--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --as a child--

C. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

FOSL: --to sort of know the community, the--like--this liberal to left community.

C. WALLACE: Well, I, I, I'm great--remember very well feeling like I had parents who were different than all the other kids--

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: --at school. My school was white and there weren't many other kids whose parents were getting arrested--(laughs)--or any of that--

H. WALLACE: ----------(??)

C. WALLACE: --no. And so, you know, I went through my whole feeling different kind of--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --and got picked on some about having a different father.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: But, you know, fairly early on feeling like my parents were right about it. I just wished more people agreed with them.

FOSL: Too bad, like, all the children of people who thought that way couldn't get together because I know Anne's children were going through--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --a lot of that too.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And--yeah, there had been conferences of like--there are diaper 28:00bags (??)--

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Oh yes, I've been to a couple of them.

FOSL: Oh, have you? Oh really?

FOSL: I've always been so interested in them.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, it is very interesting.

FOSL: Well--so, when do you remember hearing anything about the Bradens as a child ----------(??)?

C. WALLACE: I think I remember it just as those being two people who, only in a couple of times I can remember, that--I remember that they were political. They were involved in whatever that was. I remember one time, I think Carl had just come back from East Germany maybe?

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah, right.

C. WALLACE: Yeah--

H. WALLACE: He said he'd seen the future.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And he was talking about the things that had happened there. And even at that age, you know, I knew enough to know, "Okay, that's, you know, a country that most people say is a bad country."

FOSL: Right. Right.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. And I was aware of all that, the red-baiting, and that Communist-baiting stuff from early on. And--and I also remember going out to their house when Anne's daughter, the one who died--

29:00

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: --was still alive. And then--

FOSL: Oh, you must have been pretty young.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, probably about--

FOSL: Because she died in '64.

C. WALLACE: Okay, so I would have been--I was born in '57. Remember, we took them a dog?

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: We gave them a pet poodle.

H. WALLACE: Right.

C. WALLACE: And, uh--

FOSL: Oh really?

C. WALLACE: And I just remember she was, she was just real quiet. Well, and I guess I knew she was sick, but I--you know, I don't think I was aware that she was going to die, which I guess they knew she was.

FOSL: And that they didn't tell her, even her about it.

C. WALLACE: Oh really? So we wouldn't have either ----------(??). But really, my relationship with Anne, you know, on my own kind of terms, and not because I was a child going with my parents to something, didn't start until I was in my early twenties. [doorbell rings] And I'm forty now. So Anne has very much been, you know, this political role model for me.

30:00

FOSL: Um-hm. Can you say a little bit more about that?

C. WALLACE: Um, well, I know one of my first experiences--and this is before we had--where you could go down to Kinko's and get [dog barks] copies made. Anne had a--[dog barks]

H. WALLACE: Just a second, I'll get these dogs out of here. ---------- (??)----------

C. WALLACE: Away. Oh God.

KIM: I'm sorry.

[Pause in recording]

FOSL: Well, let's try this one more time. Go back to thinking about Anne as a role model.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: And--maybe you could retell a little bit of that story about your decision to go with the parents that day.

C. WALLACE: Oh yeah. And I guess we were talking about that in terms of moments where Anne and I maybe had a difference of like what the strategy is for addressing racism. Because I still felt like that was the starting point. It's like how do you do anti-racist work as a 31:00white (??)? And, um, so I think that, um, you know, in working in the Kentucky Alliance and being a board member, and being very directly involved in trying to build coalition around the Klan, um, around the Klan on the police force, et cetera, that it was a constant--we had a constant challenge of how do we get more white activists to see this as an issue and to want to be here and be involved in this? And Anne would often tell that story about it's not good enough for the white activist to sit in a church choir and be, you know, singing to the music, and then listening to the gospel, and everybody's together, that we have to stretch our self beyond that to, to work with other white people about racism. So I saw--I felt like because the lesbian/gay movement 32:00was at very much its beginning stages, I mean it had--it had started in '85. But really, there was a moment in '91 where it's like, okay, the leadership of this is coming together and it can go in one direction or another.

FOSL: And that's when--

C. WALLACE: And I--

FOSL: --this thing happened, in '91.

C. WALLACE: Ninety-one, yes. And I went to Anne because I see her as one of the people--if I'm making a big change in my political life, I want to talk to her about it. And--and anyway, so I told her that I was looking at doing that, and that part of what I wanted to do was--was help this fairness effort that we were started to be an ally in the anti-racist struggle and broadened the base of white support in the anti-racist struggle. And then initially she was not sure about that. You know, she saw it, I think, very con-, she--very concretely as Carla is at less meetings here, Carla is less accessible to do this 33:00work that we have done and this work, it was very immediate for her. And for me, it--I knew, okay, I cannot say to her, well, Anne, I'm just right, because until I saw some of the fruits of whether this was gonna happen, I had a question mark too. It's like, well, I think this is what I need to be doing. And as that has developed, and as, I think, she has seen that the fairness effort--does seem as part of the division making the connections between race and lesbian and gay equal rights. There have been times when she has said, "You're right. You know, I do see more people coming out to the efforts." And I think I talked about the anti-Klan rally as being a good example of that, where we were all working together, but, but because of my fairness work, part of my base now is a whole group of white people that Anne does not 34:00have--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: --access to in that way, and who then, because of our work together about lesbian and gay oppression, when we're like, okay, and we need to be at the anti-Klan rally, the Klan hates dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, and the gay people, it's like it becomes more something that people move to. And so that audience, there were a lot of especially young people who she knew had been organized by the fairness campaign. And she left me this message on my machine after that rally and said, you know--you know, "I know that I was skeptical when you said you were--this is what you were trying to do," she said, "but, you know, today I felt like I saw that in the rally and I just thought I'd tell you that because maybe I haven't said it enough to you." And it, it felt--it was very--it was kind of one of the most important comments to me after the rally because I did work real hard because I felt like, okay, here's a moment where we have to see if this is working, you 35:00know. Do people get it? And so it meant a lot to hear that from Anne, you know, because, uh, I do take a lot of political, I guess, you know, direction from her vision about race equality. And, uh, I don't know what else you were talking about.

FOSL: Well, we talked about, um, about--

C. WALLACE: ----------(??) We had a big discussion about the class, race thing.

FOSL: Right. But--that might have been more, you know, just sort of ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I think, I think that I'm interested in--I--I'm definitely interested in hearing you talk again--(laughs)--about--her--your management of time and you beginning to set those boundaries.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: But not--but let's--before that, I know one other thing we talked about that I think is important, and you, you contributed some things to this, too, was about Anne's--how Anne was viewed in the community--

36:00

C. WALLACE: Hmm.

FOSL: --when you first came from that shift.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. Yeah, but I think still, even in '83, '84, when I first came back, there were people who would--discount her contribution or her voice in things because, "Oh well, that's Anne Braden. You know, she's a radical," or whatever. I mean, I don't know if they would say it that blatantly, but I was very clear about what that was. And I've been in meetings where people said, "Well, you know, if you put Anne Braden's name on there--," with the implication being that it pulled it all the way over to the left. Well, you know, it's like that's where I come from.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: So the last thing I'm gonna tolerate is, you know, red- baiting with different kind of words used, you know. So I would always say, "Anne's--deserves (??) to be here," you know? And people wouldn't- -I don't remember people saying--I don't remember instances where it was 37:00like, "no," and there was a big fight about it, which probably, a few years before, there might have been. But I--but just to say that, over these years, I have seen people's respect for her, at least, you know, publicly their expression of that respect grow.

FOSL: So can you remember any of the specific instances when this happened? Like what were the issues or what were the ----------(??)?

C. WALLACE: What were the issues? ----------(??). It would probably be more things that were being planned where folks were trying to show that more moderate people were involved.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: So for instance, if people would say, "Well, we wanna involve such and such a minister, or this person," and those people would be seen as more mainstream, it would almost be as if--so if we've got Anne's name on there--

H. WALLACE: ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: --they might not join us.

38:00

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: And they were afraid that Anne's name would scare those folks off.

FOSL: But you don't think that happens now?

C. WALLACE: I think that it may happen more subtly. I think it may happen more subtly. I don't think people would dare do it with me, probably--

FOSL: Because you're ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Because they know how I feel--(laughs)--about it. But, um, I think the, I think there's still some--you know, I--even with the Courier-Journal editorializing it and the awards and stuff, I still feel that some people would rather not be discomfited--discomforted by it--

H. WALLACE: They feel it's a certain stigma of being too close--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: --to Anne because of her history, I think.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: A history that has been--

C. WALLACE: ----------(??).

H. WALLACE: ----------(??) by them.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Oh, I think there's still some of that, yeah. And I think some people, you know, when folks talk about Anne makes them feel, you know, the white guilt or whatever?

FOSL: Yeah, we talked about--I'd like to hear ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Yeah. It's like I think some of that comes from their own 39:00internal struggles with, you know, what do--are they doing about racism.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: You know? Because I find that those white people who are working on the race--on race issues don't get triggered by that guilt in the same way.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: I mean it's like I don't--I don't feel a guilt thing. I do look at questions of, okay, what's the best use of my time, what's the strategy? But I don't feel personally beat over the head when Anne speaks in this way. But I have watched that that's how people feel. And some folks then use that as a reason to not include Anne in a meeting, you know?

FOSL: Oh, because they--she makes--

C. WALLACE: Anne will just--yeah, Anne--

FOSL: --them feel guilty. She guilt-trips them.

C. WALLACE: --will feel like what we're doing is not important, it's just the race issue, instead of seeing that what Anne is trying to do, I believe, is bring--make sure the race issue is at--is at the table.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: So I, I notice some of that. I think some people would 40:00rather--the way Anne brings up the race thing, because people know she dedicates her entire life and all her money to that (??), you know, and you say, you know, a little bit getting that feeling of, you know, not--you know, that because she models that, then if we're not that--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --then we must be--

FOSL: Every single person says this about her.

C. WALLACE: Yes.

FOSL: Every--except for maybe somebody like Fred Shuttlesworth--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --but in general.

C. WALLACE: Right.

FOSL: Especially people who are younger than her.

C. WALLACE: Right.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: And to me, where I've gotten to, and made a peace with that is, I think it's been really good for my relationship with Anne. And I don't know if she'd think this. But I think it's been good for our relationship that there have been times where we've taken somewhat of a different approach, and then we've been able to acknowledge where each other was right or--you know, that. Because I have more confidence than I used to as an organizer. And sometimes Anne's not gonna--I know 41:00now that's--a part of it is that Anne sometimes is very immediate, so if in the immediate moment, my doing this work over here means I will not be able to, uh, go to this particular meeting tonight, instead of like what might happen in the long run, she's focused on that meeting tonight.

FOSL: Yeah. She's, she's, she is a very immediate person. That's a good way--

C. WALLACE: Which is partly the overwhelmed stuff, I think--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: --because everything--and I--you know, and I mean I'm an organizer, so I can joke with myself about Carla, of course, everything's a crisis. And it is. Our society is in crisis. But I- -you know, I got to s-, a point in my own personal life where I was--I couldn't keep a, I couldn't keep that pace and stay sane, you know.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: Um, there was always--there is always something else to do as an organizer. There's always another leaflet to write, another person to call. And it was hard for me to get to a point where I could 42:00say, "Okay, Carla, prioritize, and those calls will be made tomorrow." You know, and I still--sometimes people are like, "Well--" you know, I--in fact, because I used to be more obsessive about it, now people will say, "Well, you know, you--haven't called me back." And it's like, okay, thirteen calls I got home to last night. (laughs) You know, and then I go back through them. But I think that, that when--if you're a full-time activist, that becomes expected of you, and everything else is kind of like, you know--and, and then, you know, for me, because of class privilege--I struggle with, well, of course I should be doing this 24/7 because I can. And other people can't make that choice. Now a good friend of mine who's a, who's a wonderful, uh, labor organizer ----------(??) and a good friend of mine. Anyway, she said to me, uh- -and from a working class background--she said to me, she said, "Yeah, Carla, and a lot of people, if they have the time, they wouldn't be 43:00doing what you're doing." Most of the people from your class would not be doing it.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: So, you know? (laughs) She said, "You know, you need to be okay with doing what you can do." Um, but so, so I did take--it did take time to be able to set those boundaries. And some of that, I think I've said, was hard, um, with, like for instance, leaving meetings at a certain time.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: Or trying to suggest process for doing things in meetings which would more efficiently use people's time.

FOSL: More delegating?

C. WALLACE: Yeah. But see, I--because I worked with--because I was working with the activists a lot, I mean my part is not writing the newsletter or keeping--I'm no good at the keeping a database. I can write. But a lot of mine is relationship-building, co-, working with people, talking with people, getting their feedback, or getting people to work with each other.

So I would often hear the things about, you know, "I don't wanna go to 44:00one of those meetings because it will go on for four hours," or, "I don't ----------(??)," you know, because Anne will, you know--keep the meeting going for this long.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: You know, those kinds of things that come up.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: So for me, then, I always look at it, okay, so what's the impact of that? If people aren't coming back to the meeting, that's not helpful.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: So I would try and--because it was worth them coming to the meeting, I would try and nudge things into being a little more, you know, like that we didn't make the list of phone numbers in the middle of the meeting, that we would delegate this piece, trust that someone else could do it. And Anne didn't have to be the one to do it. And we didn't have to do it in the meeting.

FOSL: But you see, I was thinking about that when you said you're the networker, you're talking to people, building relationships--

C. WALLACE: And delegating.

FOSL: --but she's doing that and she's writing the newsletter.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And--

C. WALLACE: I think Anne sometimes has a hard time with delegating stuff.

FOSL: I, I think that's true. But I wondered if you've ever kind of confronted her about this today, kind of rambling, lengthy quality. 45:00(laughs)

C. WALLACE: I--I tr-, I've done it in the way of, Anne, we really need a beginning time and an ending time for this meeting. Because people need to--people appreciate it when there's an ending time for the meeting.

FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: So I don't think it's been so much like, Anne, I know if it was up to you--(laughs)--it would be going on for four hours.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: But, you know, then she'll be like, you know, kind of like annoyed with it. But I'm okay with that now, you know?

FOSL: Well, what was--

C. WALLACE: In fact, I almost have kind of a, a feeling of, um, just appreciating that's just how she is. That she's probably not gonna change. I don't know if you know how she is about her smoking. It's like, you know, these meetings where people won't let her smoke. (laughs)

FOSL: She's really accepting of it now.

C. WALLACE: She's gotten much better.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: But it sure took a long time. And so now I've learned. You know, she'll grumble about this stuff. But she'll also--because she will say to me, you know, later, or, "I really appreciate that you got so and so to do this, you know, or that, and I'm so excited so and so 46:00is organizing the youth." Yeah, because Anne, that wouldn't be the-- best role for you. (laughs)

FOSL: Right. (laughs)

C. WALLACE: You know? So sometimes she--I think she has to see it in the concrete that it can work another way. Otherwise, it's almost like she has an anxiety. And I shared this. I--when I first started organizing, I wanted to know every piece of everything that was going on. And as the fairness campaign grew, for instance, I learned to be excited that I didn't know about it, what was going on.

FOSL: Um-hm. Yeah, I don't think she ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: No. And now I'm thrilled. If--if somebody--it's like, yeah, we're having a fund--there's a fundraiser for fairness this coming weekend. And it's a--they had some coffee tasting or something. I said, "Oh." And I was so thrilled. I wasn't thinking, Oh, I didn't get invited. I was excited that something was happening and I didn't know about it. That shows progress.

FOSL: Yeah, she doesn't want to miss anything.

C. WALLACE: No. And that's where, if you go to--

[Pause in recording]

FOSL: Let me just see here, this is a loaded question.

47:00

C. WALLACE: Okay.

FOSL: Because, you know, Suzy Post has said to me that she feels Anne doesn't have a sense of humor. (laughs)

H. WALLACE: Oh, I think she does.

C. WALLACE: Some people might say that about Suzy. (laughs) Because Suzy--Suzy's so funny. She--she'll--Suzy has a, a major cynical attitude. I think you saw that.

FOSL: Yeah. I have.

C. WALLACE: But what I've learned, because Suzy's another person I work with a lot, I have tremendous respect for her, she's a great coalition- builder, which may be part of her and Anne's tension, you know, because they're both, they're both good organizers. You know?

FOSL: But quite different.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, very--yes, very different. I mean Suzy delegates very, very well. And what hap-, I mean I don't know if you know much about the coalition she's put together, Metro Housing Coalition.

FOSL: Just not much. Just--

C. WALLACE: Very broad--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --I mean from way over here to way over here. Anyway, it's a--it is a different style. Suzy isn't ----------(??). But she'll be 48:00cynical initially. And then she really will end up doing something and being there ----------(??) but I can see why they have tension. But what were you gonna say about--you were gonna say something about Suzy says she doesn't--

FOSL: Well, yeah--

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Just that, that she says she doesn't have a sense of humor. And I, I, I don't really--I mean one thing about Anne that's so different from me is even when I was a full-time organizer, I still liked to go to the movies.

C. WALLACE: Oh, me too.

FOSL: And things like that and she really doesn't do those things.

C. WALLACE: I believe now, by--I've learned by experience, and this is not to say--I mean because I think Anne's--role as a role model for other activists is one kind of role model.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I really respect that. But I have found that if I role model to people, that I have nothing else in my life except ---------- (??) and organizing, people decide they can't be like me.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: People decide they can't do that. And that's not helpful. And it's like, I even--and I don't--I don't mean this in a pragmatic 49:00sense that I go to the movies so people see I can have fun. But I used to joke about--when I first started letting myself do social stuff, I used to joke, I said, "Because it's important that people know activists have fun." Remember we used to joke about that when people said that folks--that, that if--if Communism came to this country, there wouldn't be any cookouts, remember that? (all laugh) You wrote a letter saying, "What do you think communists don't like to cook out?"

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: Remember that?

H. WALLACE: Yeah, I do.

C. WALLACE: But--that's kind of that idea that I, I don't--for me, I have decided that it's not helpful--to not--I mean I need it for my own self preservation. I need that balance. But it also has helped me reach other people about thinking about doing activism either as a full-time thing or at least a serious part-time commitment, that if they think that they can also have the rest of their life. I 50:00went through some very hard learning things where I pushed people in situations where it impacted their personal life.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: You know?

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: Um, and did that for myself, too, you know, where I would not ----------(??)---------- important as my work ----------(??). And I had to learn more balance in that way.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And so--

FOSL: See, Anne, I think never had that challenge because of the nature of her marriage.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. Probably. And the humor, the humor thing--I, I mean I've seen Anne be able to relax when it's--but it's usually if something has been able to drag on for a little while, like and just kind of, uh, but it's been rare.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: It's been rare where I really--where she really relaxes. But she is funny because like I remember that specific when I came to talk to her about the fairness stuff. She said, "Now--now I don't have 51:00that much time, you know. So let's just--" and I said, "Okay, Anne." I said, "Twenty minutes will be plenty." Well, three hours later, it's her that's keeping the conversation going.

FOSL: Absolutely.

C. WALLACE: Oh yeah. Oh. I can identify. And so it's--that's kind of funny to me, too. Because she doesn't want to, and yet--oh, I remember--oh when was it that we all--I know what it was. It was a Jesse Jackson thing. And this was one of the first times, I think, for Anne in '84 that she was starting to work with the lesbian and gay community. I had, I had--let's see, had I come out? I don't think I had come out to them.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I was still going through my own process, definitely. Because I didn't come out until, I don't know, '85, '86. But--but we were doing a coalition-building, which was starting very early in the early, early period. It started to connect up some people who were 52:00out as lesbian and gay activists in the anti-racist work. And in the Jackson campaign in '84, and then again in eighty--and especially in '88, then it was very conscious. We had Lesbians and Gays for Jackson.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And we had Women for Jackson. We had--you know, all this--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --coalition stuff. And Anne really did a lot on that. But I think it was the '84 campaign where we had like a benefit of some kind. And there was music. And there was dancing. And Anne got up- -we--you know, we were all dancing, different people dancing with each other. And Anne got up and danced. And I remember I was just like, "Wow, Anne Braden's dancing." And people--and you could see people going, "Oh my god, this is so cool. Anne's dancing."

FOSL: Yeah, I know.

C. WALLACE: And that probably speaks to that point, that people didn't often see her--

FOSL: --having fun.

C. WALLACE: --in those kind of--yeah. Now if you--

FOSL: Well, she loved to drink.

C. WALLACE: Oh, I tell you. Well, I was gonna say, if you talk to either Mattie Jones or Betty Payne (??), they can tell you about how she is about her, what is it that's her?

FOSL: Well, I didn't know Betty Payne.

53:00

C. WALLACE: Betty Payne?

FOSL: Unh-uh.

C. WALLACE: She's a, a close friend of Mattie's. And, uh--

FOSL: Oh.

C. WALLACE: --she was real involved in the Kentucky Alliance--

FOSL: Oh, okay.

C. WALLACE: --a while back. And so we all went on all the trips--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: The ----------(??) Harris case and all that stuff. We did a lot of that together. Um, but anyway, what is it? Is it her bourbon, I guess? It--it's something that she, you know, don't get in her way. (laughs) She--you know, but it's like after the work's done--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --and late into the night. You know, and then she will do some relaxing and stuff. But--but at this event, it was kind of like, you know, she was dancing. And I sensed--I could identify with that, for myself, when I started doing activist work, the only time I felt I could relax and have fun is if I felt like I'd really come off some good organizing, you know, and had really done a good job. Now that was always quickly followed by, "I have to do a better job next time. I need to do more."

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: You know, I never do it enough. And now it's like I can--I 54:00can definitely have fun, go dancing. And, in fact, every Friday night I do country dancing. (laughs)

FOSL: Oh, you do?

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And you know what's funny? Social stuff is--and I don't do it for that reason, but it's an organizing--

FOSL: Oh, sure it is.

C. WALLACE: --opportunity.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: You know, it's like when--when people do things--other things together, it creates relationship.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And relationship is--it's like somebody needs to be able to tell me that their mom died, and that's why they cannot be there. And I need to be able to say, "I hear you. Take care of yourself. I fully support you not coming to this meeting tonight." You know? And I've learned the hard way for myself, and in working with other people, that we--that--that it is not helpful to, like--for people to feel really guilty about--

FOSL: And that she still works as a role model, as a mentor, although--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --there is that dimension to it.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I find that somewhat interesting.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, it is. And I think that's--it is up to people to--to 55:00stay grounded in their commitment to do this kind of work and say, "That doesn't mean I have to be Anne, but I can learn an incredible amount from Anne." And that there's different ways of dedicating your life. You know? I mean just because someone is doing--I mean for instance, you're doing this writing. To me, that is a tremendous contribution to the movement.

FOSL: Well, be sure it's not ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Okay I will. (laughs) Yeah, you know this is funny that you say that, because this is another thing that goes on among activists, okay? Anne will tell--and my mom's like this, too--(laughs)--so it reminds me of this. Anne will tell somebody else, "Carla's doing really good stuff about this and that." But she often won't necessarily tell the person--

FOSL: Oh is that right?

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Huh.

C. WALLACE: So she'll say good things about--so it's like people always say to each other, "Oh, put in a good word for me with Anne about that."

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: And yet, she really does appreciate what people do. Now that does not mean, and especially if she's under a crunch and she's 56:00feeling frustrated with her own ability not to do every single last thing, that is when I find she gets--I don't wanna say bitter, but she'll get, like, you know, "Why are you doing this, or why are you doing that?" It's when she gets overwhelmed herself, you know? And she can't be everything to everybody, than she--and--and I, I--if I start feeling resentment with people I'm working with, I often have to look at, you know, that issue for myself. It's like, "Okay Carla, are you trying to do everything?"

FOSL: Well, I was gonna ask you how you dealt with her crankiness.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: Because she can be very cranky.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And--and other people have told me some--some pretty intense incidents about her crankiness. I'm not sure why she and I haven't had a lot of that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: I don't know why. Except I think partly--I think some of the struggles that we went through that I held my own, in some ways. I 57:00remember this terrible--it was an argument--I think it was a three or four way phone call. She and I, Mattie Jones, and somebody else, and this was some really hard stuff that happened in the Kentucky Alliance, and way back, when--I mean you know about the relationship between the Kentucky Alliance and its history with the Communist Party?

FOSL: A little bit, yeah.

C. WALLACE: Okay.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: And--and when the party was more involved in the Alliance, if there was anybody who was in either the party or had any other independent political views, gotten involved in the Alliance, there was--it was suspect.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I was working with an organization at that time called Front Line newspaper?

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And--we were doing discussion groups. And some of the folks from the Alliance wanted to come because we were talking about--there was so much in our activist work that we don't get to set back and say, "So what are the implications of this?" You know, and 58:00just have a dialogue about the issues.

FOSL: This was in the eighties, though?

C. WALLACE: Yes. This was like--'86.

FOSL: Eighty-six.

C. WALLACE: Eighty-five, eighty-six, eighty-seven. Maybe '85, '86. But anyway, and at that time, apparently the party said, "This shouldn't be happening. Kentucky Alliance shouldn't allow it." And literally, people felt run out of the Kentucky Alliance--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --if they were participating in the Front Line. And here I was, as Kentucky Alliance board member, committed to that work, also feeling like there was a role for theoretical discussion.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And then part of it from up above came down as that we were trying to turn--and here I wasn't even out as a lesbian at that time, turning the organization into some gay movement. It just got really nasty.

FOSL: Wow.

C. WALLACE: And so--

FOSL: Well, I didn't know about all that.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. I don't know--yeah, it's kind of--it was kind of a hard part in (laughs) the Kentucky Alliance. And I don't know how Anne could tell the story. But--

FOSL: Well, I'm sure gonna ask her.

59:00

C. WALLACE: Yeah. (both laugh) Ask her about that. But, but, but there were some very, very emotional meetings where people got asked to leave, and--attacks were made on people's motives and stuff. And I remember just--I don't deal well with conflict anyway, which means I'm probably in the wrong line of work--(laughs)--but I like everybody to get along.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: It's kind of the role I played with them.

FOSL: But Anne is like that too.

C. WALLACE: But I learned that, because you don't want conflict. I just don't like conflict.

H. WALLACE: Right.

C. WALLACE: But, but, but--and, yeah, Anne tries to be a bridge-builder, too. So she found herself in a situation where she felt like there was a good role for the Front Line stuff to play. And she felt the Kentucky Alliance role is critical. And she just wanted us all to be able to get along--

FOSL: So how did she deal with this like Communist Party line there?

C. WALLACE: She tried to say to them that she felt good about the work that, that people related to the Front Line were doing in the Kentucky Alliance. She tried to say that to them. She tried to reassure Mattie that--you know, that's not what people are doing. Carla's not trying 60:00to get people away from the Kentucky Alliance. I mean it was like--I just--I was just interested in how can we all work together better--

FOSL: Sure.

C. WALLACE: --here? I mean I was not--I didn't have any allegiance to one group or another because I thought, they have the correct line, you know, kind of a thing.

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: But anyway, but I get how that was the perceptions. 'Cause it felt like sometimes there were these camps. But anyway, we had this very emotional, um, phone call, these emotional meetings. And I remember Anne saying to me, 'cause I was real upset about whatever, she said, she said, "Well Carla, you're just gonna have to develop a tougher skin and know that all this stuff is gonna happen, and that we still have to work together. You don't have to like everybody to work together." At the time, I felt like she wasn't being very supportive or--(laughs)--or sympathetic with how I was feeling. But, you know, in the long run, it's like she was really right about that. Because Ma-, Mattie and I are--are wonderful allies now. You know? And it's like there are people that I have had the most intense, divisive stuff. I 61:00mean I work closely with folks who used to be in the party, you know?

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: I've voted the party before. I mean it's not like I had anything against it--

FOSL: Well, it sounds like the first thing you did with Anne was tried to get Gus Hall ----------(??)

C. WALLACE: Yeah, well, and although what it was is I called Anne and Anne said, um, uh--I don't know if you've heard him talk about Judy ----------(??)?

FOSL: Yeah, yeah.

C. WALLACE: Judy and some other folks were organizing a signature campaign. And they needed help. So Anne was suggesting that I start out there. Then I went into the Jackson work with her. So the morning direct work was with her in the Jackson work. She wasn't leading that part.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: She was just--you know, she would help them get people to get them, kind of thing.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: But--and it really was--just--on--get on the ballot kind of thing It wasn't--like organizing for the party. It was a ballot access question.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: But--but anyway, I learned from that, that, you know, it's true. Some of this stuff is really--and I have tried to help other activists get through that stuff, but when it gets really hard, you 62:00know--although I do think we, as activists, do need to figure out how to--how to treat each other--(laughs)--more gently sometimes.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I--and I think, you know--feminism's brought some really good stuff to that, which--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: You know, but--but then again, I mean when you're working with lots of different folks, and people have different ways of interacting with each other, you have to know that you're sometimes going to walk into situations where everybody's talking at the same time, you know? (laughs) And--

FOSL: Well, a couple of things that we talked about that I wanted you to just sort of recap very quickly, and one was this issue of using time and Anne as kind of a counterexample to that. You talked quite a bit about that, but maybe you could just say a couple things on that.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Because I mean I, I definitely appreciate and have learned about from her that this work can be a lifetime work.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: It can be a lifetime work. It's not--never--it's never ending. It's just always gonna be there. And that that can be 63:00tremendously rewarding and empowering and all that. But I've always had to learn, through needing to set boundaries when I'm working with Anne, that it is legitimate to--sleep and to have personal lives-- (laughs)--and go to the movies. And--you know, that that--that is like legitimate--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: --to do that.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And it's not that I've thought, you know, Anne does it this way, I don't wanna do it this way. But, um, and I don't know if this was this conversation or the last conversation, where I have learned in my own work that it's important to model for other activists. You know, that we do have a personal life, too, and that it is legitimate to, you know, take care of ----------(??). And, and that that's been something I've had to learn how to deal with Anne. Um, and I don't know if this is why we, we don't have the cranky--you know, we don't- 64:00-we don't actually have a lot of conflict. We've had these discussions about, you know, is this strategy or is that strategy not right? But we don't have--we don't ha-, I, I've never had Anne, which I do know other activists, she said this to them, "Well, you know, I just--I just think you shouldn't be doing it that way, or it just isn't--," you know, we don't have it like that. It--

FOSL: Huh.

C. WALLACE: --it seems more--I don't--I, I, I'm not sure what it is. I don't know if it's that I feel enough confidence in how I'm doing- -because sometimes when those folks talk to me, it's almost like they feel like they're not good enough, you know?

FOSL: In terms of her respect?

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And they want it really badly. And--

FOSL: Would you say she has a kind of a maternal role for you?

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And you think she feels that way, too?

C. WALLACE: I think that that's definitely how we started out.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I think that that has changed some in terms of--because 65:00I was forced to stick up for what I thought, how I wanted to try and do it.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And so then I don't know that she would see me as a peer. But there's more balance.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: There is much more balance in the relationship.

FOSL: Okay.

C. WALLACE: So even to the point where it's like at this Rainbow Conference, you know, I, I, I can talk to Anne about how, you know, okay, yeah, it's--it's a problem that there aren't more grass roots people here, and what does that mean about the future of the--the Jackson work? And yet, sometimes it'll be me saying, "But you know, Anne, I think it is very important that Jesse is accessing these avenues just in terms of the business community, dah dah dah." And she's saying, "Yeah, you know, I can see that." And it's more like we have a dialogue--

FOSL: Give and take. You know.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, a give and take. And that--that probably was a hard--it may have taken moving directly out of some of that work to be able to stand on my own feet and say, "You know, well, I--I have a way, 66:00I think." But I know the other thing that I do with Anne, and I don't know if she, you know, senses this. She probably does. But because sometimes she is like an is-, sometimes still an isolated voice of a white person who's saying this racism stuff is really important. And some people try and turn that off. They say, "Oh well, that's just Anne and her guilt trip again." When people try and do that, if I can echo what she's saying, but do it in a d-, a way that connects for them in some--like another direction. It's almost like we can tag team--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --on people. And so Anne will put out the stuff at the meeting. Then I'll hear the grumps after the meeting. And I'll get them to understand, "Okay, but this is what Anne's trying to do--

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: --and it's right, you know, and I agree with it." And I'm sure there are other folks who do that, you know, Tom Moffett and other people who, you know, do that, too.

67:00

H. WALLACE: ----------(??) her sense of humor. I don't know where ----- -----(??). I think she has a sense of humor, and a very good one.

FOSL: Right, you mentioned. I wanted to hear more about that.

H. WALLACE: But I--I can't remember any of the things. But she could make a speech, and she'll say things about--

FOSL: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: --how long she speaks and other kinds of things.

FOSL: Yes, that's true.

H. WALLACE: And write that in her ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: That's true.

H. WALLACE: She's a--I think has a very good sense of humor.

FOSL: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: She's so busy, a lot of times she doesn't get the chance to express it as much as other people.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: And she jokes about the cigarette thing, too.

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: Well, I know how people are (??). In fact, when we were gonna go down to--down to Chicago, and I joked with her, and I said something about, you know, using my car. Because I remember one time I got into Anne's car when we were on a road trip. You could not see through the windshield. (H.Wallace laughs) There was so much stuff on the windshield ----------(??)

FOSL: I once shared a room with her in Miami (C. Wallace laughs) --- -------(??) international meeting. And, you know, she--we had agreed to share a room. And she said, you know, "You need to know that I'm 68:00not gonna give up the smoking." And I agreed to that. But when I got there, I had to--I had--I really hate smoke.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I was so sick, I couldn't even--

C. WALLACE: When we went to Chicago, I said, "Anne--smoking--smoking will be in the bathroom."

H. WALLACE: Oh.

C. WALLACE: And she smoked in the bathroom.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: Yeah, we--

FOSL: What year was this?

C. WALLACE: This year. This--

FOSL: See, but this was like--

C. WALLACE: This was--

FOSL: --eighty-nine.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And she was not--

C. WALLACE: No way. Oh, she would have killed me. I'd be outside sleeping in the hall.

FOSL: But listen to this. I, I couldn't put up with it.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: I just--I said--

C. WALLACE: Oh.

FOSL: And she said, "Well, we'll open the door." We sat all night ------ ----(??)

C. WALLACE: ----------(??)

FOSL: But with the door this open. And I woke up at three in the morning, she was sitting there, smoking.

C. WALLACE: Oh yes. Betty Payne tells a story where she was sharing a, a room with Anne, and--she said--sh-, I--maybe they were even sharing a bed, because I used to--everybody used to double up. But she said she kept, you know, noticing this dirt, what she thought was dirt on 69:00the bed sheet. And she says to Marji (??), "God, have they not cleaned this room? Is there--" and suddenly she saw it was Anne (laughs) flicking the ashes on the bed. And she--Betty would always say to me, "I--I was just terrified that--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --you know, there would be a fight."

FOSL: Yeah. ----------(??)

C. WALLACE: But she does. When she's in an okay mood, she will laugh about that stuff.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I mean you can--I'll joke about--you know, and I've done--I forget--I mean, well, what's been really refreshing about some of the reevaluation of how some of us work together in the past, you know, is--joking with people who were, you know, in the party at that time, about--you know, and I'll say, "Yeah, I remember how you all hated me, thought I might be a spy or something." Because I feel like--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --we need to be able to joke about those things.

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: You know?

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: It's like--so I would hope that, you know, it's like that if, you know, we could say, "Yeah, remember when--you know, Betty Payne 70:00got kicked out of that meeting because she wanted to go to a Front Line discussion?" (laughs) And to me, it's like I don't hold that against you.

FOSL: No.

C. WALLACE: And we all learn through that. And that was the time we were in.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: You know, it was just--it was like that. But--but Anne doesn't--Anne, Anne--I don't--I almost always leave my conversations with Anne feeling energized rather than ---------(??).

FOSL: Oh.

C. WALLACE: And I don't know if that's--I don't know, it may be the long--long--length of time.

FOSL: Um-hm. Since you've ----------(??) together a long time?

C. WALLACE: Yeah. I think more than anything, I carry an anxiety about how the back end gets filled if she's not with us.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: I--I still think there's nobody that quite fills that role but her.

FOSL: Well--

C. WALLACE: And I think that she--I think that she would like to find people who she could feel would fill that role.

FOSL: Yeah. And she probably sees you that way.

71:00

C. WALLACE: And it's--and it's something that I feel is a big thing to live up to.

FOSL: I'm sure.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Well, this is brings me to my last question, which is how would you characterize Anne's role in this community? Actually, that, that question is twofold, because in your article, the article about you in that Louisville Magazine, you talked about the spirit of community that helps to hold you here. First of all, how do you see Anne in that sense of the community? And then how would you--part two of that is more like how would you see Anne's role in the movement in Louisville ----------(??)?

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. Okay, what was the first piece?

FOSL: Sense of community.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: Anne's role in making and keeping that community.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. Um-hm. Um, one of the things about Anne that I've learned a lot from is she never gives up on anybody. She never gives 72:00up on anything. Somebody can act out in the worst way, and she will try to help them stay in the work, try and sometimes--over-apologizes for people--(laughs)--you know, I think--you know, she, she, she gives people a lot of--if they're trying to do something, even if sometimes they're not being that helpful, she would try and find a way for them to fit in.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: And I've learned a lot about that, because there is a role for everybody. It's a matter of figuring out, you know, a place where they can feel like they can contribute. Um, and I feel like Anne's kind of this--when I think of why is the mo-, because sometimes people say in the mo-, in the movement in Louisville, there seems to be more connection among the different sectors than there are in my community, wherever they happen to be from. I think Anne is a key piece of that. Because I think she becomes the bridge for a lot of people. For one, 73:00being a white person in the anti-racist work, she is like just this constant role model of like white people who are willing to speak out ----------(??) about racism. She also, because she is a coalition- builder--and that's like one of the biggest gifts she's given me--is, um, she's committed to that in a way that she will stretch herself. So for instance, you know, I think Anne had some anxiety at first about how the gay issue was gonna divide people.

FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: Some of that, I think, was her own--where she was at personally about learning about that issue and it being something newer to her. But partly is politically, you know, that she was worried that if--if people did not work with gay people then we weren't gonna all work together and, you know, let's kind of be quiet about that a little bit. And--and you can't, you know, it, it moves forward. And so she 74:00has stretched herself. And you'll hear Anne now talk with people about, you know, and lesbian and gay people, and--it's in her language now--

FOSL: Um-hm. Yeah, it is.

C. WALLACE: --more. Which ten years ago, even five years ago, it was not, you know. And that's true in the broader level. So Anne, like, serves to role model for [dog barks] folks that the need to stretch and ----------(??) work together. And she has wor-, I mean she--when [dog barks] we're doing the, um, Coalition for Peace in the Middle East, Anne is there. If we're doing the, um, you know, the Fairness Campaign, Anne is there. If we're doing the death penalty, Anne is there. If we're [dog barks] protesting, you know--aid to the Contras in El Salvador, Anne is there. [dog barks] So even though it's like, you know, the anti-racist work prim-, priority, she sees [dog barks] the connections between the issues, you know? And she [dog barks] just becomes like kind of a--I, I, I do think she's a networker for folks.

H. WALLACE: Well, I told Cate in the beginning, if I go a meeting or 75:00something, I see Anne there, I know I'm in the right place.

C. WALLACE: That's right. That's right.

H. WALLACE: She's the spirit of the movement here--

C. WALLACE: Yeah. I think she is.

H. WALLACE: --in addition to being a person who is very good at getting it all together and going.

C. WALLACE: Yes.

FOSL: And do you think younger people still see her that way?

C. WALLACE: I think that when they get to engage with her, they do. I am concerned that there's not enough opportunities where that gets to happen.

FOSL: Hmm.

C. WALLACE: And I think it's part of our challenge, it's part of my challenge in the fairness work is how do, how do we get people in situations with one another so that they can learn and stuff. We did--a project for--using fairness, um, project using Eyes on the Prize to talk about the connections with the anti-racist struggle and Civil Rights Movement for the lesbian and gay people.

FOSL: Oh, that's interesting.

C. WALLACE: And folks from the alliance and Freedom Fight (??) coming in, and Anne and others. We would all watch a session of it together. And then they would talk about, you know, their experience ---------- 76:00(??). And that--

FOSL: That sounds great.

C. WALLACE: When that gets to happen--because I don't think we have enough in the movement at all of the passing on of the history and the experience. And I know in the African-American community, folks talk about that all the time, is that how do we help the youth understand where we were at and how we get to where we are? And I think we need that in the broader movement, too, is that the folks who are--because I've known--I mean Anne's been there in my training, you know, for so many years. But for a lot of folks, it's like, "Oh yeah, it's Anne Braden." And I try and translate, "Well, this is who Anne is. And this is, you know, what dah dah dah." But there's nothing like people trying to--having a conversation with her, being in something with her, and appreciate.

FOSL: Well, she's talked about living life as a symbol. It sounds like she's still something of a symbol--

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: --even though (??) that the symbolism has shifted a little bit.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: But in terms of her--

77:00

C. WALLACE: I think she's--I think she's also the conscience of the community in a lot of ways in terms of white people ----------(??).

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: How many people have you heard say Anne's a saint?

FOSL: Oh yeah.

H. WALLACE: ----------(??) especially in contrast to when they call her a communist and all that.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And she's one of the few white people that I believe is totally trusted in the black community in Louisville. That is a very rare and--you know, and sometimes white activists ----------(??)- --------- Um-hm, and for good reason. Because why should they trust white people until ----------(??)? So to me, that is a respect and a trust that is very much an earned thing. And she is just there. They just will not question an issue with her there. And that, you know, that's a--that's something that's really rare.

H. WALLACE: She even goes to church, ----------(??) she? I won't argue 78:00with her on that.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

H. WALLACE: She had every right to go.

C. WALLACE: Well, that's interesting, because she didn't--she wasn't for--I mean she didn't for a long time.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: That's been a newer (??) thing.

FOSL: Oh, really she's--she was going in '89 when I--

C. WALLACE: Was she?

FOSL: Um-hm.

H. WALLACE: ----------(??)

C. WALLACE: Maybe that's back in '83 when she ----------(??).

H. WALLACE: ----------(??)

FOSL: Is it St. Stephen's Episcopal?

C. WALLACE: No, it's--no, it's the--oh gosh, what is it? Yeah, it's an Episcopal church. It's--it's one of the few multiracial churches.

H. WALLACE: Oh.

C. WALLACE: And, and it's interesting, because some very old Episcopal families, like some of the Binghams, Edie (??) Bingham--one of the Binghams still goes. ----------(??)

H. WALLACE: Oh, yeah?

FOSL: Do you know Betty Ann (??)?

C. WALLACE: No. But the pastor of that church--this was at the beginning of the fairness campaign, which on the fairness campaign, leadership thought (??) he was gay. And I know that, that his commitment--to building between the races in that church ----------(??).

79:00

H. WALLACE: Does Vernon Robinson fit into here anywhere?

C. WALLACE: I think they've known each other for a long time.

FOSL: I don't think ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Yeah. He's a--he's also--

H. WALLACE: --Catholic priest.

C. WALLACE: --a gay Catholic priest. They've known each other for ages.

H. WALLACE: --converted. I mean he wasn't a Catholic.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. They've known each other for ages.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: And--and he--I think he involved more like when they were all in school, in desegregation stuff.

H. WALLACE: Yeah. I think ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: He used to have ----------(??).

FOSL: ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: He's been less active more recently.

FOSL: Yeah, no I've never heard that name.

H. WALLACE: He's well known here in Louisville.

FOSL: And--but--I was also going to ask--oh well, coming from Roanoke, Virginia--I'm from Atlanta, so that's a very different situation.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: But coming from Roanoke, Virginia, this looks like a very activist city. Like, there's a lot going on here.

H. WALLACE: Well, Roanoke's kind of sleepy, huh? (Fosl laughs)

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: It's amazing.

C. WALLACE: Well, you know, one of the reasons I think it is active like that is because in s-, and I've done some work, some training, like 80:00with folks in other--and this whole piece about coalition building, which is a big piece, apparently, in organizers--when she thinks of pulling something together, she thinks of representation. She thinks of who is at the table, what organizations. You'll see her at a press conference, always harassing the news people to make sure they saw the endorsement list, to make sure because that [dog barks] is, you know- -and, and, and what it--what the [dog barks] endorsement list shows is [dog barks] labor is here, and women's rights are [dog barks] here, and the gay and lesbian. And for her, that vision of coalition [dog barks] the person is really important. So bec-, people who have had experience with Anne politically have been [dog barks] trained. I was trained by her in coalition-building.

FOSL: Um-hm.

C. WALLACE: So then it's how I see [dog barks] doing the work, too, you know, ally-building (??) and coalition-building. It's not okay if you just have this one [dog barks] same group in there doing whatever.

FOSL: Um-hm.

81:00

C. WALLACE: So--

FOSL: So it kind of ripples--

C. WALLACE: I think--yes, I think it has had a ripple effect. And another couple who I would say have had a very important impact on that is George and Jean Edwards. Have you ever--

H. WALLACE: Oh I meant to mention that. Yes.

C. WALLACE: Yes. And they are two other people. And--where Anne would be--

H. WALLACE: Two other saints.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. Where Anne would be one of the, right, saints of the anti-racist movement, Jean and George are saints of the peace movement. And when we used to do the anti-Vietnam War marches, and I remember-- Dad, didn't we used to like sometimes bring a lamb to them or something?

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: We'd bring the animals with peace signs on them. (Fosl laughs) And I met--that's when I first met George and Jean.

FOSL: I don't know them at all.

C. WALLACE: George and Jean Edwards. They are contemporaries of Anne in age.

FOSL: I must to talk with them.

C. WALLACE: And--

H. WALLACE: That's another thing. You see, you see them at the meeting, you know you're at the right one.

C. WALLACE: Yes. They're always--

H. WALLACE: And they're always there.

C. WALLACE: Oh, exactly. And they are with the Fellowship of Reconciliation.

FOSL: Oh, okay.

C. WALLACE: Um, they--

FOSL: I might have even met them here, but I just didn't know.

82:00

C. WALLACE: Yeah. And their commitment has been to justice-making in the non-violent tradition. They, I believe, and I don't know if they'd say this, but I think they've learned a lot from Anne in terms of why that agenda needs to include an anti-racist agenda and FOR is at the nati-, national now.

FOSL: Oh well, she's been very powerful.

C. WALLACE: It's really--yes, has moved--and that has been a very important bridge built (??). But years ago, you know, there used to be a lot of division. There'd be the white peacemakers over here and the anti-racist community over here. And I think that's one thing that Anne--she wrote--I don't know, have you seen her article about that? It's, it's a--it's one of the best things--

FOSL: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: I think it's one of the best things that she has written.

FOSL: That's the first time I ever met her.

C. WALLACE: Really?

FOSL: Was hearing her--

C. WALLACE: Neat.

FOSL: --at a workshop. Because that's--

C. WALLACE: Neat.

FOSL: --actually how I've had any contact with her whatsoever is through--because I--my earlier book--

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: --is a history of the Women's International Movement for Peace and Freedom and I just also, I worked for the staff, and met her at an anti-racist--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --workshop she gave at one of their meetings.

83:00

H. WALLACE: Let me interrupt.

FOSL: --so she was kind of doing that.

H. WALLACE: Yeah, they live at 2317 Strathmoor Boulevard.

FOSL: Which means nothing to me ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: You have their phone number there, Dad? I think it's 458--

H. WALLACE: Yeah. I was going to get the phone number--458--you're right--8056.

FOSL: Okay. And there's--

H. WALLACE: They're very accessible.

C. WALLACE: Oh yes. They are wonderful. They are a tag team, very--I guess they've been married forever and ever.

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: And George is, um, a retired professor of the Old Testament at the Presbyterian Seminary. And Jean is lifetime activist. And they've--they--it's like when I think of--Anne Braden, Jean and George Edwards, Mattie Jones, you know. There's certain people that are kind of like ----------(??)--

FOSL: Right.

C. WALLACE: --that it's like if, if something's gonna be pulled together, if those people put out the call, they will come. You know? So--

84:00

FOSL: Well, you know--let me just touch on one other base that you might have some suggestions of. It's the women's movement, especially in the seventies here in Louisville. Because I had--I have a great regret in my life, in this project, which is that I sat down to interview Eric Tachau about his role in the Wade case. And Mary K. had plenty to say. And I sort of didn't pick up on that, and now she's gone. And I was just very focused on that episode and she had so much more to say about this.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Now who might be somebody to talk with?

H. WALLACE: What about Tina Hester?

C. WALLACE: Yeah. I mean her lifetime--because she's so much younger.

H. WALLACE: Yeah.

C. WALLACE: You know? But in terms of folks who would have been involved back then--I would say possibly Sister Lucy Freibert, maybe.

FOSL: I don't know her.

C. WALLACE: She's a professor of U of L. I don't know if she was here 85:00at the time. But that's somebody who actually goes way back --------- -(??).

FOSL: ----------(??) Yeah, I have some--

C. WALLACE: Maybe, maybe, um, Allie Hixson? Has been involved forever in stuff. Goodness, who else, who else might be ----------(??).

FOSL: Anne herself would probably have some suggestions.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. She might.

FOSL: That's a piece that I just haven't gone back and picked up. But I've had many regrets about that interview.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: That was a lot--like '89 or so.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: Very early on--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --and it's tough when you try to interview people--

C. WALLACE: Right.

FOSL: --when you haven't done the--you know, the leg work--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --and the book work.

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: And that--that's what I've gotta do, so it was very unfortunate. But, but I do--I mean she has played a role in the women's movement in Louisville of the seventies that I--is not entirely clear to me.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm.

FOSL: I've got some of the documents about it. So it probably won't be, you know, that hard to figure it out from that. But it would be great 86:00to talk with a couple of people--

C. WALLACE: Yeah.

FOSL: --Suzy was able to talk about that a little bit.

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. Yeah.

FOSL: Okay, last question. Is there anything that I haven't asked you, any story, any piece that comes to mind, if you were writing a book about Anne, that you would want in there, but that only you could tell me?

C. WALLACE: Hmm. I might have to think about that one.

FOSL: And I'll be--I can meet you Friday morning or something.

C. WALLACE: Yeah. I might have to think about that one and, and uh--

FOSL: And Henry, any closing reflections?

H. WALLACE: Well, my memory's not that good.

FOSL: Sounds pretty good to me.

H. WALLACE: I didn't know--I've known her for a long time and I known her fairly well, but not working with her like Carla has. So I don't have the same ----------(??).

C. WALLACE: Um-hm. But you introduced me to her, so--(laughs)--

H. WALLACE: Oh yeah.

C. WALLACE: --it's all your fault. (laughs) Uh, but--

87:00

FOSL: Okay.

[End of interview.]

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