FOSL: --testing, testing, one, two, three, testing.
[Pause in recording.]
FOSL: This is an interview with Anne Braden at the Braden Center onDecember 11--12, 1997.
[Pause in recording.]
FOSL: Well, since we're talking about the war, you wanna start bytalking--
BRADEN: This woman, Potter, she said she did use your piece. Did shechange it or--
FOSL: She said, "No." So I, I didn't ask about the pictures. But I hopethose pictures got in there.
BRADEN: Oh, you gave her some pictures?
FOSL: I gave her some pictures, a beautiful picture of you.
FOSL: When you were quite young.
BRADEN: I didn't realize she was gonna have pictures ----------(??)---------- write a book, I guess.
FOSL: Evidently. I'm looking forward to it, and I get a free copy.
BRADEN: Oh, you do?
FOSL: Yes, she said she's--
BRADEN: I wonder if I get a free copy.
FOSL: I don't know.
BRADEN: (Braden laughs) The subjects--
FOSL: Call and ask.
BRADEN: --ought to get a free copy.
FOSL: You would think.
BRADEN: Oh, it did say in the ----------(??) column I think I can get an----------(??), but, um--
FOSL: Well, talk about the war. Can you remember the day the war ended?'Cause you must have been covering it.
BRADEN: Oh yeah.
FOSL: Tell me about that.
BRADEN: V-J Day. I don't remember a lot about it, but, um, to tell you1:00the truth. And I remember the day that, the, the bomb on Hiroshima.
FOSL: Okay, yeah.
BRADEN: But I don't remember, you know, we didn't know what it wasall about. But it was a, I remember Ed Brinkley talking about it, come over the wire, and of course it was big headlines, and they were describing it, as I recall, some bomb that's so many thousand TNTs or something, you know. They, nobody knew what it was, really. And that would a been the sixth, I guess.
BRADEN: And then V-J Day was the fourteenth. Right? You know. I don'tremember, no, I don't really remember a lot about it, to tell you the truth. But I'm sure I was working at the paper. Um--
FOSL: What were your feelings about the atomic bomb? I mean, because atfirst I guess a lot of people just thought, like, it's just gonna end--
BRADEN: Just another bomb. Yes.
FOSL: Yeah, another bomb, and it ended the war. So--
BRADEN: So many (??) bombs had been falling all over the place. So I--
BRADEN: --didn't have any particular, we were just all glad the war wasgonna be over, you know. ---------(??)
FOSL: So do you remember, like, people out in the streets in Annistonand--
BRADEN: I really don't, although, well, you see, my mother went to the2:00hospital.
FOSL: Oh, that's right.
BRADEN: Yeah. And I, I can't remember whether, I think that was V-J Day.
BRADEN: With an ulcer. So that was a, sort of convenient 'cause shesort of collapsed after she apparently, she had an ulcer. And of course she always was a healthy person like me. She, until she got old, she never had any health problems. She used to have headaches. That's all I can remember about her. She'd have headaches. Lie down with her headaches. I don't know why she had headaches. But she always was real healthy. But she had, uh--
FOSL: And she was pretty young then, in her forties, wasn't she?
BRADEN: She was born in 1896.
BRADEN: Four. Four plus forty would a been forty-four , or forty-fivewhen the war started. And in '45 she'd a been forty-nine. Well, not quite forty-nine, 'cause I guess sh-, her birthday was in September.
BRADEN: But she, um, she fainted, as I recall. And I can't, suddenlyI can't remember, I don't know that I, I don't think I was home. I cannot remember who found her, or maybe whether she actually fainted or 3:00how she got to the hospital. But they took her to the hospital 'cause she kind of collapsed, and she had an ulcer, what it was, and it was bleeding, I guess. But she had been, and now what they figured was she never had an ulcer after that, but she had just, now, I don't know, they, now, they think other things cause ulcers. But the theory then was that you got ulcers by worrying.
BRADEN: You know, and she was so worried about Lindsay, and she justkind of held herself together and collapsed on V-J--(laughs)--Day. Um, because he was, um, on a submarine somewhere in the Pacific a lot, I think ----------(??)----------. But, um, well, she always thought she got telepathy messages and she, the day that she found out later that they, their sub was on the bottom of the ocean or something. And they didn't think it was gonna come back up, but it did. She knew that, she said, she got, like, a message or something.
BRADEN: But, um, so that kind of absorbed me. I remember that I was upat the hospital with her, stuff like that.
BRADEN: But I can't remember how she got there. ----------(??) I don't4:00remember that. But she was there for a week or two, I think, maybe. So I was kind of back and forth.
FOSL: So that sidetracked you from really--
FOSL: --being too focused on the war. Well, tell me about what yourmother looked like.
BRADEN: Hmm. I don't know how to describe her. She had black hair. Italways looked--
BRADEN: --black to me.
BRADEN: And was darker than mine. And, um--
FOSL: Slender person?
BRADEN: Oh yeah, she was never overweight particularly. I mean, I canremember her kind of watching her weight sometimes. But she was--
FOSL: But not slender like you are?
BRADEN: Well, I never thought of myself as slender. But I guess otherpeople--
FOSL: You are very--
FOSL: --slender now.
BRADEN: But I always had to watch my weight. I tended, at least Ithought I did, I tended to be overweight, I thought, you know. And I would eat, you know, eat things people shouldn't eat and all that. When I was in college, first, my freshman year, I gained a lot of weight 'cause people do. They just eat.
FOSL: Right, I did that, too.
BRADEN: Um-hm. And, um, so I'd have, I'd go on diets and things, notreal strict, but I was watching my weight all the time. And she kind of, I guess she served healthy food, you know. But, um, she, she, 5:00her hair, I think, when I remember her most, was always long. She probably, she put it up in a, what, a bun or something--
BRADEN: --in the back.
FOSL: Or, and also maybe one braid down the back or--
BRADEN: --She never had braids. But she would, um, I think she'd call'em a knot, she'd put it in a knot in the back. Now there are pictures of her when I was a baby or real little that I, when I don't really remember her, when she had cut her hair short. When growing up, I think she did have braids growing up. I've seen pictures of her as a child. There's that picture you may have seen of the five children.
BRADEN: And with her and her three brothers and sister. And I thinkshe's got a long braid, real cute, she's about five years old.
FOSL: 'Cause, you know, when I first met that crowd in Anniston, uh,Elise and Jean and even Edith said they all thought I looked like your mother. And I just thought that was so odd. But they said it was 'cause of that hair drawn back, 'cause I wore my hair in one braid down 6:00the back then.
BRADEN: Um-hm. Hmm.
BRADEN: No, she didn't do that. She, she put it in a, I think shecalled it, a knot. It was like a bun back there.
BRADEN: But I think that she, so she had long hair growing up. And thensometime when she was younger she cut it 'cause everybody was cutting the, bobbing their hair, they called it.
BRADEN: But then, she must have let it grow again 'cause I remember herwith long hair. But she didn't wear it long, she'd pin it up.
BRADEN: And, um--
FOSL: Straight hair like yours?
BRADEN: Well, I never thought I had straight hair. No I've gotten wavyhair.
FOSL: Oh really? 'Cause I was, had only seen it cut like that. I wasjust looking. I was really admiring your hair the other day when I picked you up because it's just so easy. It's just, you just brush it, and it looks great.
BRADEN: That's all I do (??). Yeah.
FOSL: And it's a nice little cut.
BRADEN: And I keep it short (??).
FOSL: But it sure looks straight.
BRADEN: It's shorter than it usually is. One, I had one, the woman whoalways cuts it, she cut it a little shorter las-, I have to get it cut about every two weeks because it gets out of shape. But, um, but, I've never had a permanent, you know--
BRADEN: --because I, well, what we did in those days, we rolled ourhair up.
BRADEN: We slept in--(laughs)--rollers and stuff, and you wanted curls.7:00But I had wavy hair.
BRADEN: And so did Mother. We didn't have straight hair.
FOSL: Okay. Okay.
FOSL: Anything distinctive in her mannerisms or--
BRADEN: I don't know how to describe her, you know. Um.
FOSL: Um-hm. Hmm. Okay, well, then, what about your father?
BRADEN: Well, same thing with him. I don't know how to describe himeither. He was, uh--(pause)--um, I don't know. He was, I guess a picture of him, it's, I guess you saw it. But it's in some of those picture things when he was, and he's walking along the street, and he looks real energetic, and I know mother had written on the back of it in some kind of more active days or something. So it was something she wrote later on after he got, you know, pretty feeble toward the end of his--
BRADEN: --life a little bit. But he was quite energetic. And, um--8:00(pause)--but I didn't see him a lot, you know. He traveled and stuff and I didn't really see him a lot growing up. He'd come in, and I always felt a little awkward around him. I never--
FOSL: ---------(??) used to him (??).
BRADEN: --felt like I could talk to him, and I felt quite relaxed withMother a lot, you know, she ran the house, um--(pause)--and, but she was real active during the war. That's what she just kept busy to keep her mind off of Lindsay, I guess. And she was head of the bond drive, war-bond drive, or something like that, then.
FOSL: Yeah, speaking of which, um, I've, somewhere in some of thecorrespondence that you wrote or maybe even a journal you were keeping, you referred to your own volunteer work at the USO. But I've never heard you mention it. Do you remember doing that? I think it was, like, during one of the summers when you cov-, you first covered the USO for the paper.
BRADEN: Well, they would have dances and we, you know, people, young9:00women would go to the dances.
BRADEN: And I would, I went to those, I think.
BRADEN: Um, I can't remember where it was. ----------(??) Street orsomething like that.
FOSL: Hmm. But you don't recall volunteer, the volunteer work?
BRADEN: Well, I don't--
FOSL: 'Cause I ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --think I volunteered. Probably I went to the dances maybe.
FOSL: (coughs) And then the whole time you were growing up, what aboutpets? I don't want to spend a lot of time on this. This is just frills, okay? But, you know, just, you had that one dog that Lindsay had won.
BRADEN: Because they won him in a contest--
BRADEN: --Keds shoes. I don't know whether they still have Keds shoesor not.
FOSL: I think.
BRADEN: You know, we called him Keds. A little, a little terrier dog,white I think, maybe trimmed in black. And, um, he died, I think, I don't know if it was a he or a she dog. I can remember coming home from school one day and mother was crying because the dog had died. And I think that was Keds.
BRADEN: Mother didn't cry much. Mother was very reserved. She didn't10:00show her feelings at all.
BRADEN: Um, and, uh, well, my whole family was. My, my father was muchmore outgoing in terms, or ter-, inclined to be, I think. Although I just couldn't, didn't relate to him much 'cause I felt awkward around him.
BRADEN: 'Cause I didn't see him that much, didn't know what to sayto him. Maybe 'cause I was so shy. But, um, then Mother was very controlled about her feelings, if she had any. And she, you never saw her feelings--
BRADEN: --at all. Held 'em in. But that was sort of, a lot of peopledid that. That was sort of what you did. You were supposed to.
BRADEN: And, um, I don't remember. I think I've told you this before.I don't remember much affection in my house.
BRADEN: --um, I mean there was the, they loved me, but I didn't, therewasn't enough show of affection. That was that reserved sort of thing. You just didn't show those things.
BRADEN: But, um, had Keds--11:00
FOSL: Well, what--
BRADEN: --and then Ked-, that, that dog died, trying to think if we hadanother one after that.
FOSL: Well, one thing that really comes across to me--
BRADEN: We had a (??) cocker at some point, I think, a cocker--
FOSL: Had a, oh, a--
FOSL: --cocker spaniel. Hmm. No cats?
BRADEN: I don't think we ever had cats. I don't remember having anycats.
BRADEN: Mother didn't like cats maybe or something--
FOSL: So no particular dog really sticks in your memory except for--
BRADEN: Just Keds, yeah.
FOSL: --Keds, um-hm.
BRADEN: And there was a dog--(Fosl coughs)--there was a black cockerspaniel after that who was mine, I think. And I can't remember that dog's name or whatever happened to it. I guess it died.
BRADEN: But we did have, I think, and I can't remember where we gotthat one.
FOSL: Well, getting back to this question of feelings, 'cause one thingthat comes across, it's hard to, you know, I couldn't be sitting in the room with you when you were in high school, obviously. What I have is either what you've told me or what you've written. And what you, you come across to me as a very expressive person. And later, in your letters with Harriet and your friends in college, you really expressed 12:00your feelings and, you know, you were very passionate, very passionate person. This is my impression.
FOSL: I wonder how that seemed to your parents being more reserved. Youwere used to--(??)
BRADEN: I don't think--
FOSL: I mean ----------(??)--
BRADEN: --I was. I don't think I was. I think I was, the passionmaybe, I was passionate, I got, you know, when I got, when I got more interested in things like that, I got passionate about ideas. I don't think I showed a lot of feeling toward people.
BRADEN: In fact, I think I've been pretty cold toward people most ofmy life.
FOSL: Um-hm. Hmm.
BRADEN: I mean, you take the people--and that's the thing, it's, I reallydon't want to, I told you I don't want to get into my feelings. But one of the things bothers me is all the people I've lost touch with.
BRADEN: I've just lost touch with one set of people after another thathad been important in my life. And partly, and, but that goes way back even before I was political because I didn't keep in touch with people. I'd get, because I'd get absorbed in what I was doing.
BRADEN: And the only thing I really cared about was work--
BRADEN: --as time went on. I mean, I cared about my children and Carlwhen that relationship developed. But, I mean, like, when I was into 13:00different men in my younger life, I just ignored 'em. I mean, like, um--(laughs)--um, that Bobby I went with.
BRADEN: You know, I went off and I didn't write him and, and, and Ididn't do it deliberately. I was just busy doing other things. I just didn't keep in touch with him. And then that what's-his-name, the, the tennis player that I was so crazy about--
BRADEN: But when I got back to school I never wrote to him 'cause I was--
BRADEN: --more interes-, ----------(??) once or twice. But I was moreinterested in what I was doing there at school. And he finally, he just, it hurt his feelings. And I remember him writing me about it (??) that he just had, had, he just had finally gotten over me because he never heard from me.
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: And, you know, it didn't bother me. (laughs)
FOSL: Well, one way that Carla Wallace described you that I think isvery true, and it, I was surprised it wasn't a quality I'd thought about, but is that you're just very immediate. You, you deal with what is at hand. What is in front of you.
FOSL: You know, and that is the focus at that moment.
FOSL: There's not another thing, you know, in the way.14:00
FOSL: Which is a, it's a nice quality--
FOSL: --you know, to talk with you. Because you're right there.
FOSL: But I could see where that would be--
BRADEN: I never kept in touch with Harriet who was really, and Iprobably loved her as, more than anybody in my life, except Carl. But toward the end of her life I should've seen more of her. I didn't go to see Ida when she was dying. And I should've, and I knew she was dying, but I just didn't get time, and Harriet told me--
BRADEN: --they said Ida understood, you know, you know. Su-, su-,sure she did. Maybe so. But, and Harriet, I think they get, I think Randolph-Mac-, Randolph-Macon was giving her some kind of an award. I think it was probably the same one they gave me.
BRADEN: I didn't even know what the significance was then, and theynever particularly asked me to come back in those days, and I remember she called or wrote and she wanted me to come and stuff. And I remember I decided not to go because I, and I remember I did write her and tell her, "I wouldn't get to see you anyway," which I wouldn't have much. And I--
BRADEN: ------------(??), but I didn't go. And I should a gone to that,you know.
BRADEN: But I was busy, and I didn't. And, um, so--15:00
FOSL: Well, I--
BRADEN: And, and Lucile who is really, I guess, the person I wasclosest to in college, and of course my life changed, but I didn't keep in touch with her. I went up to see her, I would sort of reach out to people. I went down. She married this guy and was living in Chattanooga. I still don't know what killed Lucile. I tried to find out, but I went up to see her, and she changed sort of. Um, well, she hadn't really changed. But ----------(??)---------- it was a strange marriage. She didn't want any children. She had kept, taken care of some kind of nephew or something, she said she didn't want to fool with children. But, um, and she was, she was real important to me. But I was busy with other things, and my life had gone in a totally different direction by then. But I was down, it was right, I remember Anita was a little baby because I left Anita with Mother, I guess Jim was there, too, must have been, but Anita was little, just a little baby, thought (??) maybe she was sitting up, and went up and spent a couple a days with her in Chattanooga. And, um, it was good to see her, but I, then 16:00I, I lost touch with her, and somewhere I heard she had died, and I still don't know what killed Lucile.
BRADEN: 'Cause she was quite young. And I remember, I did ask IdaFitzgerald. I, I said, "What did Lucile die of?" She probably killed herself, 'cause I remember when, I mean, not committing suicide, but she had some kind of heart trouble. She, she was--(laughs)--what was it she did when I knew her? 'Cause I had that thyroid problem when I was in--
FOSL: (coughs) Excuse me.
BRADEN: And, and thought I was having a nervous breakdown. I startedtaking thyroid, and I got to feeling fine. Well, she had the same problem, and she said that, when she was, she, made her feel so much better she when she took two or three pills she just started taking six or something--(laughs)--and, and then her heart started racing and stuff like that. So she may have done things to her health. I just don't know. -----------(??).
BRADEN: I ----------(??).
BRADEN: And then I lost touch with, and I don't know what's become ofher. I wonder if she's still living, Sarah Thorpe (??), that was such a good friend of mine.
FOSL: Well, I'm going to try to track her down. I want you to knowthat. I have--
BRADEN: She may have died.
BRADEN: I don't know where she is. Well, where, how you gonna find her?
FOSL: Well, and because, uh, that woman, and I did remember her name,17:00you asked me about her, the wom-, former librarian there at Stratford. It's Mary Evelyn Jefferson.
FOSL: She was a couple years behind you.
FOSL: And they have a really good file that they kept up on people. Soif they're, you know, if she's somewhere that she's been for maybe, you know, fifteen years, then I might be able to--
BRADEN: Well, she called me one time from Birmingham, of all places, andthis was, what, you know, maybe four or five years ago or something.
BRADEN: Her name was Otto (??). She was--
FOSL: Oh, that recently? Four or five years ago?
BRADEN: Oh yeah, see, I think she had some kind of series of nervousbreakdowns or something. She was, um, she was married to that guy, see, when I got back in touch with her, I'd lost touch with her after college, too. But some way--
FOSL: They lived in Athens.
BRADEN: They lived in Athens. But I'm trying to think where I gotin touch with her. I think she was in Boston after, I, when I spoke up there at Boston while Carl was in prison maybe. I think that was it. She, I don't know what she was doing in Boston. But she came to this program, I believe, it's where I met Yvonne Tevon (??) the first 18:00time. And I think that was in March of '55. I remember that, 'cause it was when I was just beginning to run around speaking on the case. And, so she wrote me after that. She talked and wrote me, and by that time, or previously, she had married this guy and was happy and then, she thought, and she had a, and he was, I think he was some kind of teacher, that's why they were in Athens. And she had this little girl that was Jim's age. And she had another child, I think.
FOSL: And they came to Little Compton?
BRADEN: Oh yeah, and they came here. So we got, uh, to know them, well,he didn't come. But Carl and I were together some time in Georgia and stopped to see 'em and spent the night.
BRADEN: I remember. And they seemed happy, and they had this real nicehouse, which I, you know, was certainly strange for anybody that young had a house and they-were-doing-real-well-kind-of-thing, you know. Um, and um, but she came up here with that little girl--(coughs)--and, and she and the little girl and Jim played together, I think. No, no 19:00the little girl may have been Anita's age. Because I can remember Jim saying they looked just alike with their clothes off--(both laugh)-- said that or something (??). And, um, and then they did come to Little Compton. They wanted to rent one of the O'Connor's houses, and they did. They, they rented it. But as it turned out, I think, Jesse said, "Well, they just got to be like everybody else, no use charging 'em. They're part of the family," or something. So they were there for a month, I think. And, but I don't think he was there. I think she, and maybe she had a couple of children by then. She was there. I know she was there the, the summer that The Wall Between was published 'cause they had a--
BRADEN: --party, the O'Connors did, and Frank and Jean Wilkinson cameand stuff like that. And she was there then. I can remember that because I remember talking about the lobsters crawling all over the floor 'cause we'd all, we'd kind of been having those drinks on the table and people (laughs) ----------(??). So she was there that summer. And that would a been in '58. And then, I kind of kept in 20:00touch with her. But--
FOSL: Yeah, there's a lot of close--
BRADEN: --they moved, they moved out to--
FOSL: Oh really? Now, I didn't know that (??)--
BRADEN: I think. Utah or some, or one of those states out there. Andshe would write every once in a while. And then, you see, he left her. There was this whole chasm and he, I remember saying he got to be a middle-aged hippie is what she said. And he just went off and did a, more interesting things. Then she had breast cancer, and I remember she wrote me about that, and the effect of, like, being hit with a truck 'cause your breast was removed or something, but it'd been caught in time and she was gonna be okay. I remember her telling me that. But she was kind of devastated, I guess 'cause he had left her and gone off with some to live in a commune or do something.
BRADEN: And, um, and then some, but then I lost touch with her. Andit seems to me that some other time in there, like maybe what, that would a been in the sixties, I guess, when he did all that, maybe early seventies. And, um, sometime in the seventies or eighties she contacted me from somewhere. But the most recent thing is that she called, but 21:00she did not leave a number. And I think I would have called her back.
BRADEN: She called and put a message on the tape--(Fosl coughs)--Iguess, Sara (??). I thought she was in Birmingham. But I can't think, I have no idea what she was doing. And I just had a feeling she kind of went to pieces. Her children of course would be grown. But she had a, see, she was lesbian when she was in college. Now, people didn't talk about it then that much. But she was. Um, and, um, so I don't know. ----------(??) and I just had wondered if she's died maybe. But her name was Otto (??).
BRADEN: I think she kept that name, Otto (??). I'm not sure.
FOSL: I would think. Hmm. Well, um, well, one thing that really, it,I mean I've noticed, uh, I mean I was gonna ask you about this because you do get a sense, I mean, one thing that's very frustrating for me is, you know, I have all those letters that Harriet wrote, you know.
FOSL: And I've read those letters. You can learn a lot reading those22:00letters. But it's just so frustrating to not have your letters.
FOSL: I have nothing of your letters. And she would say, talking abouta thirty-two-page letter she'd gotten from you, you know.
FOSL: And you just get these hints. I mean, that's how I found outabout that whole thing at the Ford because of a letter of hers. But it's just very cryptic because--
BRADEN: Um-hm. Yeah, I wrote to her a lot--
BRADEN: --in those days. But I stopped of course later.
FOSL: Well, I was gonna say, you often do get a sense of her sort ofprodding at you for being out of touch though even then.
FOSL: You know? And then you would--
BRADEN: I don't remember that, but--
FOSL: --you know, you would send her a big letter. But you, you know,she wrote to you several times a week it seems.
FOSL: And so, you got a sense of her, like, wanting more back from you.
FOSL: And I wondered if you remembered it that way ----------(??).
BRADEN: Unh-uh, no, I don't remember it that way.
FOSL: But there's one letter I know that, yeah, try, you know, it'shard because they were all kind of thrown together and they're not chronological, and she never wrote a date on 'em.
FOSL: So the only ones you can date are the ones that were in theenvelope.
FOSL: And even then you have to wonder, like, was it in the right23:00envelope? Although, I'm just assuming that it was.
FOSL: But, like, there was one incident that she talked about in somedetail of like trying really hard to track you down on a New Years Eve.
BRADEN: Hmm. ----------(??).
FOSL: And she got the operator to call 'cause she never liked talkingon the telephone and she never liked long distance. She just wasn't comfortable with it.
FOSL: But she, you know, asked the operator to ring your house. Andthen I guess some, uh, maid, I don't know who or, or, or relative, but I don't know who it was, but someone that wasn't your parents answered the phone and said, "She's not here. She's at a party at so-and-so's house." And the operator was just very energetic, and said, "Oh, well, I'll get that number and try them there." And Harriet was like, "Oh no, no, let's just cancel the call." (Braden laughs) You know. And this wo-, woman tracked you down.
FOSL: But that, but they never got you to the phone. It was like atsome hotel you were out at--
FOSL: --and um, you know, Harriet said she just had this horriblenightmare vision of, like, you know, them, like, going into some hotel 24:00ballroom or something and calling your father to the phone, would have, but, but the, the whole thing was aborted. But she just felt really bad about it. But, you know, I don't even know what year that was after you'd come back to Anniston or maybe it was at one of the Christmas holidays.
BRADEN: It could have been. Um-hm. Well, I never knew her until thevery end of my years at Stratford. That spring, I guess I met her.
BRADEN: And then when I got--(Fosl coughs)--to, in sort of forming thisfriendship with her, after I was at Randolph-Macon, 'cause as you know it was her idea I go to Randolph-Macon. You know about that.
FOSL: Um-hm. Yeah, I do.
BRADEN: Um, but, and she would come down and I'd see her then. And thenI went to New York and would stay with her and stuff. And I think the thing was that I think, see, I didn't know anything about homosexuality and all that. But I think, um, she obviously had this longstanding relationship with Norma--
BRADEN: --and she was deeply in love with Norma.
BRADEN: And I think that she was also in love with me, sort of, and she25:00didn't know what to do about it because she knew it would scare me, I think.
BRADEN: And it would have.
BRADEN: Um, but, 'cause I thought it was a totally intellectualrelationship, which it was for me.
BRADEN: And so was my relationship with Carl in the beginning, you know.And that was, I think I've told you that before.
BRADEN: I don't think I could have had a relationship with Carl if Ihadn't had one with her because I, I didn't know it was possible to have a intellectual relationship with somebody, you know.
BRADEN: And ideas being exciting. And I would be there, and, but, now,Sarah (??) knew what was going on because Sarah Otto (??), 'cause I, you know, when I saw her later, on one of these times when I saw her later and she, she said that she, she'd come by. I was staying at the Fitzgeralds', I think, and I'd come back to Danville 'cause I, you know, that was fairly regular. I'd be there and I'd see her--
BRADEN: --I'd see her in New York. And I was staying there. NowHarriet--(laughs)--had a way of getting, and her mother was, old Miss Fitzgerald was, would listen to everything and she was, and Harriet was 26:00very attentive to her. Her father was long dead now. But she would, she had a way of getting up in the morning and reading things aloud to people. And she, she was crazy about Freud, and I think that was a mistake 'cause I think he was sort of a disaster ----------(??).
FOSL: Harriet's mother?
BRADEN: No, no, Harriet--
BRADEN: --was in, really into Freud and psychology.
FOSL: Right, and I could tell that. Yeah.
BRADEN: Yeah. And, well, everybody was then. But now I don't know thatmuch about it, but I think he was greatly overblown. But, um, so she'd read that or she'd read Marx. She was into Marx, too, you know. Or she'd get these things and she'd read 'em. (laughs) I don't know. And she'd read out loud. And, you know, that's the way you started the day, sort of. You had breakfast.
BRADEN: And sometimes we'd have breakfast in bed and stuff.
FOSL: Excuse me.
BRADEN: And have, and then she'd get up and read and stuff. So it wasthis, this world of ideas, which was so exciting to me. But that, Sarah (??) told me years later, she came by one morning, she was in Danville, and to see, I, I don't remember Ida being around then, at that particular day or anything, or Harriet. Well, I don't even remember Sarah coming. Well, that's what--(laughs)--and she said later she came in, and she said, "Oh," she said, "Oh Lord, Anne's in love with Harriet." She said, "You didn't even know I was there." That's 27:00what she said.
BRADEN: (laughs) She said, "You didn't even notice me. "That's whatSarah said later. So I guess I was, but I wouldn't have known what to do about it. And, so I think that she was torn because, um, I guess she had sort of made peace with her homosexuality, I suppose. It didn't seem to bother her. She was, so she had a, she had that longstanding relationship with Norma.
BRADEN: And then after Norma died--
FOSL: Peggy was the--
BRADEN: Peggy, and she lived with Peggy till she died.
FOSL: Because I have actually been thinking about trying to contactPeggy, which I could easily do through Randolph-Macon, 'cause she's still alive and still lives in New York.
FOSL: Just to see if some chance somebody saved those letters, 'causeI'd love to look at those letters. But, you know, uh, I talked to this woman named Lee (??)--I forget her last name.
BRADEN: Lucy Lee Gant?
FOSL: No. No, this is a, a cousin of the--
FOSL: --Fitzgeralds. And Mary Evelyn Jefferson got me to talk--
FOSL: --her while I was there. And she told me about this decision by28:00one of--
BRADEN: To burn the letters.
FOSL: --Harriet's sisters to burn these letters. Because, but one thingthat's funny is how you didn't burn the letters. 'Cause she would tell you these things and she'd say, "Now please, I, you must destroy this letter immediately after reading it." But you, there's the letter that I'm reading, you know, fifty years later.
BRADEN: Um-hm. Yeah. Well, I can remember one that I told her todestroy and I--(laughs)--but she probably didn't either. I think she probably kept 'em. But I, oh, I remember that. When she, because I was, I wrote her, um, after, um, I guess it was after my senior year at Randolph-Macon, after I'd graduated. I think I was living with Genie (??). But Lucile and Sherry, my friend from--
BRADEN: --Stratford and I went over to Rehoboth Beach and had this--
BRADEN: --house, yeah, stayed there a month, two or three weeks, Ithink. And we were, we had decided to go rent a cottage somewhere, and it turned out that Lucile's family owned this house over there and said 29:00we could have it, as I recall. And we went.
BRADEN: We were having a good time, and then, we were having a wonderfultime until old Mr. Schoolfield showed up, her father.
BRADEN: And her mother and father never understood Lucile. I, I was ather, their house in Rye, too, and she said, "Oh, my beautiful blonde daughter. And she comes home in these blue jeans," and, you know, all that (laughs).
BRADEN: And they had this other daughter who was somewhat retarded.Never knew what became of her. I think she was also a little, what, maybe had a, a hearing problem, too. She was retarded and, um, was younger than Lucile, I guess. But not a lot, she was grown. But anyway, he shows up and he's, you know, the Schoolfields were, I don't know what he did. I think he was some kind of banker. But they had a lot of money, or at least seemed like they had a lot of money. If you lived in Rye, you had money in those days. And, um, he was just staid and stogy and wasn't, we were having a great time, you know, and so I remember that. I--(laughs)--isn't that funny? I remember writing 30:00Harriet--
FOSL: You got really angry--
BRADEN: --a letter.
FOSL: --about him. I remember.
BRADEN: Well, but I don't know how you'd know that. Oh, maybe she wroteback.
BRADEN: Because I wrote her this letter about how it was just like, andI, I can even remember that, that's funny, about how it was like diving into a nice, 'cause we were going into the ocean a lot, nice cool water. And then you run up against this slimy fish or something. And that was him. Or something. I remember that. (laughs)
FOSL: Yeah, 'cause ----------(??)--
FOSL: --aborted your whole trip, 'cause evidently you all had invitedIda and Harriet to come down. They were coming, too.
BRADEN: Oh, maybe so.
FOSL: And then he's just like gonna stay, 'cause he, I guess, decidedyou all needed a chaperone.
BRADEN: So, but I remember writing, her writing back then. And you mayhave that letter. And, 'cause I had said, "Tear up this letter."
BRADEN: And she said, "I'll tear it up. It was good stuff, though. Ihate to tear it up."So she had--
BRADEN: --some sense of saving letters for the--
BRADEN: --literary future or something 'cause she was into letters. Youknow, a lot of people published letters and stuff. And she knew that. But, um, but then after, after Norma died it wasn't too long, I think 31:00she would, she was probably tempted to try to form a relationship with me then. Um, but I think she didn't think that would be good for me.
FOSL: This was, so Norma died before you ever got together with Carl?
BRADEN: Well, now that's a good question. Maybe not. Maybe not. No, Imight be--
FOSL: But there was that crisis--
BRADEN: --wrong about that.
FOSL: --in the relationship, maybe that's when she was thinking that.
BRADEN: Yeah, when Norma went off during the war.
BRADEN: Yeah, that's right.
FOSL: 'Cause she writes about that in--
BRADEN: Yeah, no, you're--
FOSL: --but I wouldn't--
FOSL: --understand it, ----------(??).
BRADEN: No, I didn't, no, I, I think by that time that she knew I haddecided to get married and stuff and probably was. But, uh, yeah, so she was kind of, but she didn't want, she couldn't give up Norma, and she was hurt 'cause she thought Norma was going out, she, Norma was of course an actress--(Fosl coughs)--and she was going off on the, what they call the Theatre Wing, American Theatre Wing, doing stuff. She was going overseas and everything, you know, a lot of 'em were doing that. And she thought that Norma was looking for a man or something.
BRADEN: Because she said that. She might have said it--
BRADEN: --in the letter.
FOSL: Well, I would never have understood what Harriet was writing toyou about had you not already told me that, 'cause it was very veiled-- 32:00
FOSL: --in her--
BRADEN: Well, I think she thought that--
BRADEN: --and she, and I, I remember, I was in New York and was gonnasee her, and it was the day Norma was leaving or something. And I can remember she wrote me later, and she was all torn, and she said, "Just hold on." I remember she said, "Hold on to the panel bars" or something because she wanted to see me, but then she needed to fix breakfast-- (noise)--for Norma. Norma needed--
BRADEN: --her breakfast 'cause she was leaving and stuff like that.And then when Norma came back, though, she went back to living with Harriet--
BRADEN: --I think.
BRADEN: And was living with her when she died, I guess. And Normawas just beginning to get into television. See, television was just starting--
BRADEN: --, you know, and she was, would a probably done a lot, had asuccessful career in television 'cause she, she was in some production of Joan of Arc or something. She played--
BRADEN: --Joan of Arc on TV. I remember that. And she was, and thatwas just beginning.
FOSL: What was her last name? Chamberlain? Was that right?
BRADEN: Chambers. Chambers.
BRADEN: Norma Chambers. And she, she, so she was apparently a goodactress. She had never been real successful. She wasn't a star or anything. But she had a career--
BRADEN: --and she was making a living as an actress. And they had gone33:00to New York, I guess, from Randolph-Macon, and she went to Randolph- Macon, you know, to live together and, and Harriet was the artist and she was the ----------(??)-- and that's the world they moved in--
BRADEN: --which I thought was a real exciting world. And they knew allthese theatre people and stuff like that. And they knew some left- wingers, too, 'cause, of course--
FOSL: Right. Yeah, she talks about that.
BRADEN: And I remember that, um, and they were on the fringes of theleft, but they, but of course Harriet was more left than me in those days.
BRADEN: And, but, and I can remember being there once when, uh, Harrietwas, somebody had called for Norma while she was out or something--
BRADEN: --and it was somebody wanting her to sign something, it wasprobably about HUAC or one of those things that was going on, beginning to go on in Washington, which would a been about '47.
BRADEN: Strange that I would a been there then. But it was somethinggoing on that was beginnings of the bad stuff in Washington. And they had called wanting Norma to sign something 'cause her name was known and she ----------(??). And Har-, Harriet says, "You ought to do it 34:00Norma. Go call 'em and give 'em your name." She said, "Well, they always want money, too, and I don't have any money."
BRADEN: I can remember her saying that. But um, um--
BRADEN: --but she, but I, you're right. I think by the time Norma diedI was married to Carl because I had lost, I kind of lost touch with Harriet. And Carl called her, and Carl finally met Harriet, but he didn't know her at first.
FOSL: Under what circumstances?
BRADEN: I think he went to see her in New York. And, and Carl, and,let's see. And I think, it seems to me that Carl, that she told Carl to tell me Norma died. I think that's how I heard that Norma had died, maybe something like that. And I--
BRADEN: --think it probably was pretty soon after that that she formedthe relationship with Peggy, and it was some years later before I met Peggy. And Peggy was real nice. Peggy was a dancer and, and taught 35:00dancing. And um, and I remember Harriet telling me one time years later that she and Peggy had been somewhere together and she was, Peggy came with her and, like, she was bringing her home or something, and she said, she remembered that Peggy was like she was dancing. And she said she was always dancing, and just lived dancing. And said to Harriet, "I want to make you young again," Peggy had said to Harriet.
FOSL: So Peggy was, like, a little younger than you? Does that soundright?
BRADEN: Yeah. No.
FOSL: Or about your age?
BRADEN: Older. No, she was--
FOSL: Oh, older, 'cause Lee said she was--
BRADEN: Oh no, that's right.
FOSL: --considerably younger than Harriet.
BRADEN: No, she was younger, that's right. She was younger, that'sright. No, I think she grad-, she was, went, graduated from Randolph- Macon, didn't she?
BRADEN: In '54 I think.
FOSL: Oh okay, so she is--
BRADEN: So she's probably ten years younger than me.
FOSL: Oh okay. Well, um--
BRADEN: Harriet was twenty years older than me. But--
FOSL: Because, getting back to Harriet, it's hard to assess how peoplefelt, because you all used very different language. I mean, it would 36:00be very, be very common to, like, write darling, oh baby, you know, in these letters. They say this. And, like, but there's one letter where she says, you know, "I just want to spank you." (laughs) And so you had to, you know, it's, like, hard--
FOSL: --to determine what--
FOSL: --what was in that? When you think--
BRADEN: But she--
FOSL: --about writing that, if I were writing that to a friend of minethat's twenty years younger, I would think twice about it, you know, today.
BRADEN: But Peggy, I did hear, I never saw Peggy. Well, there again,after, I didn't get in touch with any of 'em after Harriet died, which was terrible. Lucy Lee wrote me, Lucy Lee Gant, did you--
BRADEN: --you never tried to find her?
BRADEN: Now she's in New York somewhere.
FOSL: And she was Harriet's sister?
BRADEN: Oh no, no, she was a niece. But Harriet--
FOSL: Oh ----------(??).
BRADEN: --never had any children of her own kind and took some of thesenieces and nephews as children. And there was, I forget whose child Lucy Lee was, but Lucy Lee went to Randolph-Macon, I think. Yeah, Lucy Lee Gant, ----------(??)--
FOSL: Okay, 'cause Lee could probably tell--put me in touch with her.Hmm.
BRADEN: Lucy Lee Gant. And she was younger than I was.37:00
FOSL: Okay. And so she--
BRADEN: But she was some sort of a--
FOSL: --was in New York, too?
BRADEN: --niece, yeah. And she was very close to Harriet. And she'sthe one who wrote me when Harriet died. Well, it was in the paper. Daddy saw it in the Richmond paper and sent it--
FOSL: I think that was '82, I want to say.
BRADEN: No, it was in '84. She was--
FOSL: '84, okay.
BRADEN: --because, uh, when I, I was in San Francisco at the DemocraticConvention, I remember, um, my father called me there and told me that Harriet Fitzgerald had died.
BRADEN: 'Cause it had been in the paper. But I think that when I gothome I, or sometime or another I had a letter from Lucy Lee which I'd been so close to her family, she wanted me to know about this. I never wrote her. And I don't know where, but she lived in New York and she was, Harriet had sort of taken her under her wing. She had a, she was married and that, I think her husband was a problem of some kind. Don't know whether she still is.
BRADEN: The Gant, I thought, was her maiden name.
FOSL: Oh okay.
BRADEN: But I'm not sure. I'm not sure.
FOSL: Well, I'm gonna call this cousin because she was very receptive totalking. I forget her last--
BRADEN: That's Lucy Lee Gant.
BRADEN: And she was, but she, um, but I never got in touch with her.38:00And I never contacted Peggy, which I should have after Harriet died. But I heard later--(laughs)--there's a woman named Peggy Billings, and I don't know whether Peggy's still living or not, Peggy Billings was a wheel of the Methodist Church. Harriet and, um, Peggy were both quite active in a pretty traditional kind of religion, in the Methodist Church there in Greenwich Village, one of those churches, and went to church regularly, you know, in the later years. But, um, did things in the church, and it was, I guess pretty--
BRADEN: --some social consciousness. But, um, Peggy Billings was headof the women's division of the Methodist Church, and she said, well, quite a wheel. In fact she's, and she may have died by now, but she was, her father is older than me, but I'm not sure. Dave Billings, who I know fairly well now, haven't seen him lately, he was in New Orleans now, works with the People's Institute, is her nephew, I think.
FOSL: Oh okay.
BRADEN: And, um, he grew up in Mississippi, you know, and had a39:00conversion and all that. But he's the one, you know who Jim Dunn was--
BRADEN: --he's, um, was real close to Jim Dunn before Jim died. And hewas kind of an ambitious young man in the church, and he was related to Peggy Billings and all that. This is an aside. But he, when he-- (laughs)--he, he always tells a story he, he finally gotten a job at 475 Riverside. So he gets there that morning and go to work and Ron Chism (??) and Jim Dunn are picketing the place. That's over the Sheila Collins situation and they, so he got real involved with them and he is now. Well, he's a nephew, I think, of this Peggy Billings.
BRADEN: But she retired. But I met her, sort of, I never really knewher. And she was, moved in much more respectable circles than I did, but she was a pretty good person. I think she did a lot of kind of good stuff through the Methodist Church. But some time or another, and this is relatively recent years, like within the last ten years, she was here in Louisville at some Methodist meeting and she called me or some way we made contact, she said, "I'd love to see you-- 40:00
BRADEN: --talk about Harriet," she said. 'Cause she knew Harriet.
BRADEN: And, and Peggy. And I think I met her down at the conventioncenter or something. But anyway, she told me that--(laughs)--that after Harriet died, that Peggy almost immediately formed a relationship with another woman.
BRADEN: And she said, you know, that was all right, she had to have alife. But she said it just seemed like, you know, it just, it, she, it just, kind of she reacted against how--
BRADEN: --quick it happened. Just like, I guess, if somebody's marriedand they suddenly get--
BRADEN: --married immediately again.
BRADEN: So I don't know what's become of Peggy. But apparently shefound somebody else.
FOSL: Well, one thing is, you know, that I find about people that haveknown you is that, uh, you know, they don't seem, I mean, I, different people, but, you know, they don't seem at all bitter that you haven't been in touch with them. They'd probably just love to hear from you at any time. I mean, that's definitely the case, the, the impression I've gotten from people that I've talked to that you haven't been in touch with, like, I mean, Jean Lloyd is somebody that--
FOSL: --immediately comes to, I mean, Jean Willett.
BRADEN: See, I haven't been in touch with anybody in Anniston recently.I just wonder if some of those people have died. I mean, people are 41:00of the age where they're dying. I'm feeling the, that, that Mary Layton (??), I bet she's died. She had heart trouble, one of those twins.
FOSL: Um-hm. Well, I, I think it, I told you that I have this friendin Roanoke, although they just moved to Chapel Hill, but I'm sure we'll still keep in touch with them, who grew up in Anniston, in Grace Church.
BRADEN: Who is that?
FOSL: His name is Max Matthews.
BRADEN: Oh, I know--yeah.
FOSL: And he's like--
BRADEN: So he, he's, he's--
FOSL: --my age.
BRADEN: Oh, well, then that's the younger generation. There was a MaxMatthews who was older than me.
FOSL: Uh, probably his uncle or father.
BRADEN: Father maybe.
FOSL: I don't know. Anyway, his father who I know is a seriousalcoholic and has been long dead, but he has two spinster aunts still living in Anniston that he and his wife go to visit.
BRADEN: Do you know their names?
FOSL: No. I might know 'em if I heard them.
BRADEN: No ----------(??).
FOSL: But they are friends with a lot of these people. I mean, hehas been really close to the Willetts his whole life. So I think if anything happened to some of those people, he knows about my work with you, so I think he would tell me. 42:00
BRADEN: Well, I know some of 'em have died. But, and I haven't gottenback there. I really should go. I know some of SOC's involved with some people down there.
BRADEN: Different world. The, um, but Max Matthews was sort of betweenLindsay and me in age. And he had a sister named, I think her name was Liz Matthews, who was maybe a year younger than me or something, who was quite a social butterfly.
FOSL: Hmm. Well, maybe that's--
BRADEN: So, but she wouldn't--
FOSL: --the ----------(??).
BRADEN: --a been a spinster, I don't think, aunt, so I don't know who--
FOSL: Or maybe she's widowed--
FOSL: --I don't know. But I just know that these are two unmarriedaunts that could be widows.
BRADEN: Um-hm. Yeah. I don't know what's happened to Jean or Bud.They may have died. Jean looked pretty healthy last time I saw her.
FOSL: No, I think she's fine. That's my, I, I know he would have toldme if something happened to Jean Willett because he knows that, I've corresponded with her and talked with her.
FOSL: And he knows that. I'm sure he would tell me.
FOSL: Um, before we leave the subject of Harriet. Can, I mean, in termsof physical description, I know that--
FOSL: --this kind of puts you on the spot. But like for instance, I'm43:00just trying to think about Harriet as she was when you knew her. I know her cousin Lee gave me one thing. And that was that she talked with her hands a lot.
BRADEN: Well, she was very intense. And, and she was, um, she was veryoutgoing and affectionate, I think. And she would, um, and she would be very excited. I remember, um--
FOSL: Was she a small person? A large person? Frizzy hair? What--
BRADEN: Well, her hair was short, I think. And it was sort of curly.And it was black. Um, and I remember sitting in, well, I guess I was still a student at Stratford then. I guess that's the spring I met her. And I didn't really know her, I, remember I think I met her at one of those cookouts at Ida's across the street. But I was sitting in a class. I was in a small class on Shakespeare and Miss Kennedy, Miss Kennedy taught and we had it in her office.
And I'm pretty sure Lucile was in that class.
BRADEN: And I can remember the door, somebody knocked on the doorand, um, it was Harriet, had come by to show Miss Kennedy, she had 44:00been painting all afternoon out on the landscape somewhere out in the country. And she come by to show her this picture. And she was real- -and she said she wanted her to see this. And I can remember, and Miss Kennedy always bubbled about things. "Oh," she says. "Oh," she, she used her hands. "Oh, it's a new stage," I remember she said--(laughs)- -that. And, and Harriet was just sort of bubbly and excited about this picture she had made. And she was just sort of smiling and laughing. And, um, so she was very intense kind of person, um--(pause)--and, but not, you know, overly. I mean, she was pleasant and nice, and she had all the southern, sort of charm, too, um, being nice to people.
BRADEN: Um, but no, it's just hard to describe her.
BRADEN: She was, um, as she got older she was, her shoulders were sortof stooped a little bit. But I don't remember it being that way when 45:00she was younger.
FOSL: Was she a large woman? Small--
BRADEN: Unh-uh. No, she was slender. Well, she was sort of, as she gotolder she gained some weight. I think she thought (??) about gaining weight. But she never was fat.
FOSL: Well, I noticed at one point she said that you had left someclothes in New York and she was sending 'em to you 'cause she couldn't get into 'em.
BRADEN: Oh really?
FOSL: Well, um, so let's jump forward a little bit. And I want you totell me a little bit more about Marshall.
BRADEN: I really don't feel like going into that now 'cause it was, thereason I don't is I'd have to reach back into my feelings at that time, and I just can't do that. Could we do that later?
FOSL: Okay. Yeah.
BRADEN: I, I just have ----------(??)--
FOSL: But you did meet him at the newspaper in Anniston?
BRADEN: Yeah. Well, I was working at the newspaper. He wasn't, he wasdoing some freelancing.
FOSL: Oh, so he was never on The Anniston Star?
BRADEN: Oh, he was, much earlier.
FOSL: But not with you?
BRADEN: He was earlier.
BRADEN: Yeah, he had gone away and come back there.
BRADEN: But I, I'll do that later.
FOSL: All right.
BRADEN: Just would have to think about a lot of stuff.
FOSL: Okay. Um--(pause)--well, this might be something else you don't46:00want to talk about. But, you know, that question I asked you the other day, um, about your impression of the postwar period. I mean, you've talked to me about the Folsom campaign, for instance.
FOSL: Uh, that seemed to be something that interested you a lot. Youwere involved in the campaign. You were a reporter, of course. But--
FOSL: --you know, that seemed to symbolize--
FOSL: --you know, for you some sort of hope--
FOSL: --for Alabama anyway.
FOSL: If you were gonna write about that period, what sort of, uh, youknow, just sort of cultural climate springs to mind?
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: '44--'45 it was.
FOSL: Yeah, '45 and early '46.
BRADEN: After Roosevelt was--
BRADEN: --died. Well, I, see, I remember the day Roosevelt died and,'cause everybody was crying at Randolph-Macon. I mean, that was, you know, people just felt devastated, I guess--
BRADEN: --everywhere. Well, some of 'em didn't, were glad he was dead.But there was that feeling that there was a different era gonna start. Um, and I remember the, at Ran-, at Randolph-Macon that spring--
BRADEN: --was that after Roosevelt died? When they had the foundingmeeting of the United Nations in San Francisco. We had a program there at, with the school, and this real feeling of hope that this was gonna be a New World--(laughs)--New World Order. They hate to use that word (??). But that there'd be this peace in the world after World War II and that kind of thing. Peace and the prosperity. And, um, and we had a program about it. I may have spoken on it. I don't remember whether I did or not, but, and I don't know who did, what group at Randolph- 48:00Macon did. But there was a program there to make note of the founding of the United Nations. So it was a feeling that, um--
FOSL: Yeah, you spoke at it.
BRADEN: Yeah. Um-hm.
BRADEN: I can't remember who put it on. But anyway--
FOSL: It seems to me that--
BRADEN: --it was a--
FOSL: --you might have been very involved in that.
FOSL: That's the way it looks from the Randolph-Macon newspaper.
BRADEN: Um-hm. I don't know. But, anyway, there was a feeling thatthis was, you know, was gonna be a new great era of peace and all that. And as far as back in Anniston that, that, um, I think that if it was a, and I guess stuff I was picking up from Harriet of the sort of the new politics in the South, you know.
BRADEN: Um, and, uh, I mean, when was Ellis Arnall the governor ofGeorgia?
BRADEN: Yeah, it was--
FOSL: It was '46, he was--
BRADEN: --he was--
BRADEN: --he was sort of representative of this new politics and stufflike that. And--
FOSL: Yeah, you wrote an editorial about him for the Star.
BRADEN: And, um, and Folsom was more grassroots. I mean, he had,the thing about him was really, you know, the, the, it's the, uh, 49:00professional politicians didn't even take him seriously in his-
BRADEN: --first campaign. But he purported to be speaking for thepoor people. And I thought, you know, that was why I liked him, and I thought that was great. And, uh, I didn't have much ideas about what ought to be done. I can remember somewhere I was riding along. Folsom was in the car, and some other people, and it was part of his campaign, and I remember him asking me, he said, "Well, what-," he says, "What do you think?" 'Cause I can remember that. (laughs) He says, "What do you think's gonna, if I can do something for the people for Alabama, what's the most important thing to do?" And I told him, education. --------- -(??)----------simplistic answer. I said, "We need good schools." Which they did. But that's what I told him.
FOSL: Well, it's interesting to me, speaking of that. It seems tome that, you know, Allen Draper, I've told you this story remembers that really strong moment when you and he were, after a dance in high school, you wrote, were riding out in the country and you saw this country school burning. And it seems to me that was a powerful moment 50:00to you. You stood there and cried and he, it was a, he remembered that half a century later.
FOSL: He didn't remember that dance, nothing else about it. But heremembered that.
FOSL: And, you know, sure enough within the first three or four monthswhen you came back to Anniston the, after college, you wrote about, uh, like, country schools and the problems with fires. It was--
FOSL: --very interesting to me that, you know, it was clear thateducation was very important to you--
BRADEN: I can remember writing about the schools 'cause they were, wewere the worst county in the state. (laughs)
BRADEN: I can remember that or something--(Fosl coughs)--in terms of theschools. I mean, and I think I, I knew the, that the superintendent, he was cooperating with me as I recall, 'cause he wanted better schools, too.
BRADEN: So we weren't attacking him. And he would take me to theseschools that were just dilapidated and stuff. And I wrote about it, kind of remember that.
FOSL: And, well, how much was the, the issue of race in there in yourconsciousness? Because, you know, I, I don't know, I don't think this, this man doesn't know you, I don't think you know him. But there's a man named Gordon Rodgers, a very elderly man, older than you-- 51:00
FOSL: Uh, ten years older than you, in Anniston who became chair of theAnniston NAACP, like, around 1949, a little bit later. But he was a returning veteran and he's talked about, I, I've just gotten in touch with the Anniston Public Library, said, "Oh, he's a history buff, Black history. You want to know about Black history?" 'Cause I've been calling trying to find out stuff in Anniston. And they said, "You should talk to him." So he called me up, and we talked for a long time, just a couple weeks ago.
FOSL: And, um, he said that there was never a high school, a publichigh school that blacks could attend in Anniston until after, or during World War II. That--
BRADEN: Cobb High School. It was Cobb High School. Maybe that's whenit started.
FOSL: That they had to be bused to, uh, Talladega to go to high school.And that during, I guess, right before the war or early in the war, the Presbyterian Church set up a high school in Anniston for blacks. 52:00
BRADEN: Well, there was a Cobb High School. I remember that. There wasa high school for blacks.
FOSL: Well, maybe it opened during the war, I don't know.
BRADEN: Yeah. 'Cause I can remember mother going there on the war-bond drive. I can remember her talking about it. And I can't even remember, not sure where it was, but it was over on, in west Anniston somewhere. And there was Anniston High School, I think there was only one high school for whites that--
BRADEN: --I recall. And there was Cobb for blacks. Now, and see, Iwasn't even in high school after the war started. And, I guess--
BRADEN: --I thought it was there when I was in high school. Maybe itwasn't.
FOSL: No. He said there was no high school whatsoever until the warstarted.
BRADEN: Well, it was Cobb.
FOSL: Well, I don't know.
BRADEN: I think.
FOSL: That's what he--
BRADEN: So ----------(??)--
BRADEN: Yeah, well, I'm sure he probably knows if, but there certainly,was kind of, that sticks in my mind, Cobb High School. But I may not have been, maybe I didn't think about it one way or the other when I was in high school. But, uh--
FOSL: But I just think with the issue of education in Alabama it wouldbecome a question in your mind anyway about that. 53:00
BRADEN: Well, I can remember, see, in terms of, I don't know how much Iwas, uh, you mean, how much I was consciously aware of race--
BRADEN: --at that time?
FOSL: I mean--
BRADEN: Well, I know, I considered myself a liberal almost.
FOSL: Right. ----------(??)------------
BRADEN: I mean I, I was self-identified that way. But I don't think Iknew any blacks, you know, and that--
BRADEN: --kind of thing there in Anniston, certainly. But I'd writeabout, you know, I'd, I'd, that's the way I thought about myself and I was pro anti-poll tax and--
BRADEN: --pro the anti-lynch legislation and all that and stuff that wasgoing on nationally. And, I think we, uh, and we sort of, sort of saw Folsom as somebody who was, um, friendly to that sort of idea.
BRADEN: 'Cause I can remember talking to, see, some of the people, Ithink, and of course I didn't know anything about what it was then, but who had been with the old Southern Conference were working with Folsom.
BRADEN: And there was a guy, I can almost remember his name, he may bein, he said, I think he was fairly well-known in those circles. He may be in Pat Sullivan's book. I should look in it for his name. Beecher- -Beech--Gordon--not Gordon Beech. 54:00
FOSL: Gould Beech.
BRADEN: Gould Beech. Did you ever hear of him?
FOSL: Yeah, he's, he's mentioned a lot. He was very close to the, closeadvisor to Folsom.
BRADEN: Well, when he was (??)--
FOSL: He was one of the first victims of the witch-hunt in Alabama, too.
BRADEN: Really? I didn't realize that. But he was, wasn't he with theSouthern Conference some way?
FOSL: I think so. Yeah. Not in the way, you know, in the real big way,but--
BRADEN: Because I can remember talking to him once and, and he, and Ican't remember whether other people were sitting around. Not, Folsom wasn't there or he wasn't right there where we were talking. Seems to me we were sitting drinking coffee somewhere and him saying that, uh, and just assuming that we all wanted somebody who was, quote, as we said then, liberal on race.
BRADEN: You know. That was the word. And, you know, he included me inthat, I guess. And he said, "Well," he said, "Folsom bothers me." He said, "Sometimes," he says, "some of his jokes are, upset you." But he said that his heart's in the right place.
FOSL: Yeah, he was a big--
BRADEN: I remember he said that.
FOSL: And I think, you know--
FOSL: --one thing he was impressed with about Folsom is that you reallycould, like, set policy. You could really have input, you know, if 55:00you--
FOSL: --were part of that campaign. Then you really could--
BRADEN: Yeah, well, he was, that's why we were sitting talking with him.And he was kind of, I think, trying to explain to me and whoever else was there that he assumed we'd be concerned about what Folsom's racial views were. The guy's all right, is what he was saying. He said, "Now you, you can't go along with some of his jokes, and he'll do that kind of thing, but his heart's in the right place now."
FOSL: Now, this was in Anniston?
BRADEN: Well, I don't know whether it was in Anniston or we were outsomewhere else where Folsom was campaigning--
BRADEN: --'cause I think I--
BRADEN: --I rode around with Folsom's crowd to some of the rallies andstuff. So it was somewhere, it was during that campaign--
BRADEN: --that first campaign.
FOSL: You know, I still have never found your interview with Folsom. Ijust--
BRADEN: The one about the Boswell thing?
FOSL: Um-hm. Well, you told me at one point, I think after you went toBirmingham, you got a one-on-one interview with him--
BRADEN: Yeah, when he tried to seduce me.
FOSL: And that was about the Boswell Amendment?
BRADEN: Oh yeah, it wasn't an interview with him, but I got him to saythat he was gonna oppose the Boswell Amendment. And it was kind of a 56:00scoop because I remember the guy, what's his name, Vincent somebody, the city editor at the news was just thrilled 'cause the, he said, "Well, we all figured he was gonna come out against it," but, um, but he hadn't. And so we made a headline out of it. And I don't know whether it had my name on it or not. Probably didn't.
FOSL: No, it didn't have your name. But I have that article. Okay, sothat--
BRADEN: About him coming out against the Boswell Amendment?
FOSL: Yeah, yeah I do.
BRADEN: Yeah, well, that's what it was. I didn't interview him aboutother things. I, I was just trying to get him to say, and that's why I went to his hotel room, I think.
FOSL: See, 'cause it's--
FOSL: Oh, it was in his hotel room? Okay--
FOSL: --I didn't know where that took place.
BRADEN: Yeah. Yeah.
BRADEN: Because I was trying to get him, 'cause he was there forsomething and I was trying to find out where he was, stood on the Boswell Amendment and he said, well, he was against it. And that's the first time he'd said that.
BRADEN: And, uh, but I don't think I interviewed him about anythingelse. I just got away from him--(laughs)--after he started trying to seduce me.
BRADEN: But he'd do that with everybody.
FOSL: I guess so.
BRADEN: It really got him--
FOSL: It really was--
BRADEN: --really got him into trouble.
FOSL: --his downfall.
FOSL: Well, um--
BRADEN: And his drinking. He--
BRADEN: --I don't know that he was drinking then. I don't know whetherhe was or not, or overdrinking. But of course he did later in life. 57:00
FOSL: There's no door here -----------(??). What is all that noise?Seems to, um, (pause). Um. (pause) Oh, here's just a trivia question, when did you stop going to the movies, was it in college? Because, you know, when you were younger and living at home in Anniston, you went to the movies, like, a lot. I think--
BRADEN: Yeah, that was all there was to do.
BRADEN: Yeah, we'd go in the after--
FOSL: Everybody did.
BRADEN: --we'd go in the afternoons and stuff. I think in college. Ididn't go during college 'cause I had other things to do. And I just kind of lost interest, I guess.
BRADEN: Never regained it really, still haven't. I gotta, I gotta gosee Amistad. That's one thing I gotta see.
FOSL: I really want to see it, too.
BRADEN: Yeah, are you--
FOSL: Have--is it being released--
FOSL: --for sure though?
BRADEN: It's supposed to be released today, on the twelfth
FOSL: Well, you know, there's been that suit and all.58:00
BRADEN: But they're-, well, they've been saying it's gonna be rele-,open here, I think, and everywhere. And our youth group here's been studying a lot of history. I, see, we, the sculptor who did the sculpture in New Haven--
BRADEN: --is, he's a good friend of mine. He's, he's, he's a ----------(??)----------, he's in my church. And, um, and he has a wonderful slide show. I didn't really know the details of the Amistad until I saw that slide show.
BRADEN: But, uh--
FOSL: That's a really incredible case.
BRADEN: Or it's, I mean not a, not a slide show, it's a video--
BRADEN: --that tells the story. It's amazing. It's very skillfullydone. You really feel like a, that you knew Cinque and stuff. And of course, you know, how they did it with no film footage, I don't know.
BRADEN: But, anyway, um, but I'm gonna go, I'm gonna try to go see that.And I went to see Mississippi Burning so I could write something for The Guardian about it, and, you know, but I didn't--
FOSL: Yeah, I never saw that. It was so bad.
BRADEN: Oh, it was terrible. But it was--
FOSL: Well, um, okay, without going into a lot of detail about Marshall,I'm, I'm curious to know, it seems like your life very quickly became the paper when you went back to Anniston. 59:00
FOSL: And, but Jean, what, who was it? Or Jean Lloyd still, like, shewrote for the paper, too for a little while there.
BRADEN: Not much.
BRADEN: She never, she never was around. She--
FOSL: Well, it said she was on the staff for a brief time in the fall of'45 anyway. But then it also, like, in the fall of '45, also announced her engagement. So maybe she just, like, went away and didn't' come back.
BRADEN: She went away 'cause it, Bud was in the, um, in the war.
BRADEN: And they, she moved away with him.
FOSL: Well, did you continue to remain friends with people like that,that you'd been friends with in--
BRADEN: I didn't see 'em much. I, I didn't break off with 'em, but--
BRADEN: --I didn't see 'em much because I was all busy at the paper,that's true.
BRADEN: And it was just like a different world. And I would, Iremember, I would go out to the country club sometimes to swim late in the afternoon--
BRADEN: --and I might see people who (??) liked to swim. But, um, otherthan that, I really didn't see 'em, 'cause I, no, I was wrapped up in the paper. It just seemed like a different world. And so I just didn't, I didn't see people like the twins. I don't know if the twins 60:00were around whether they were, they soon got married and, um, so I, I just kind of lost touch--
BRADEN: --with other people. That's true.
FOSL: Um, so it was mainly the other reporters and people like that?
BRADEN: Which there weren't that many, see? They--
BRADEN: --just, that's why I got to do everything, 'cause there, 'causethe shortage of men.
BRADEN: You know. And, um, there wasn't nobody but sometimes me and EdBrinkley. Well, Mary Stern (??) and was there, you know, a lot. And she left of course and moved away. But when, when I first started, I guess the first summer I worked there, which would a been after my sophomore year in college--
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: --well, I first started as a proofreader.
BRADEN: And I don't know whether I did anything that summer, whether Igot (??)--
FOSL: Yeah, you did.
BRADEN: upstairs (??)--
FOSL: They moved you right on up--
BRADEN: ----------(??) well, I, but I--
FOSL: --in a couple weeks with--
BRADEN: --read proof of--
FOSL: --the proof.
BRADEN: Well, but then Mary was their reporter. And she was the sort ofstar reporter. They didn't have any other one. But I don't think Ed Brinkley was there then. I think it was somebody else who was--
FOSL: No, that's right.
BRADEN: --city editor ----------(??).
FOSL: That's right, he was.
BRADEN: Can't remember who it was.
FOSL: I forget, too, but there was a guy there they called Whiskers.61:00
BRADEN: Oh, Whiskers, yeah. Well, he was, he'd been around forever.Carmichael (??) was his real name. Yeah. And he was, you know, the reporter around town. Everybody knew him and he knew--
BRADEN: --everybody at the courthouse and that kind of stuff. And Idon't know whatever became of him. I don't know, remember, remember him leaving or dying, but he may have. But, and there was, but he wasn't the city editor, I don't think. There was another city editor, but Mary, and it was all kind of awe-inspiring to me. But she was kind of their star and Elise, I think, was working there that summer.
FOSL: Right, that's right.
BRADEN: (coughs) So she and Mary and I hung around together a lot andgot to be friendly , we'd go drink coffee and, and I was kind of in awe of Mary 'cause she was sort of established as a reporter. Then when I came back ----------(??)--
FOSL: Was she still there when you came back?
BRADEN: Well, that's what I can't remember. The next year would a beenafter my junior year--
BRADEN: --and I think she was probably still there then. But I'll beable to, then they would give, they gave me more to do that summer. 62:00
BRADEN: And I think, so it was probably, maybe it was Mary and Eliseand me. I can't remember when Ed Brinkley came on the scene. He was certainly there when I went back after college.
FOSL: Now what was your relationship like with him? I mean it, it soundslike he was real supportive of your career.
BRADEN: Yeah, he was a nice, he was a, you know, he was a pretty talentednewspaper man and he hadn't been too successful, just to be editor of the Star. Now, of course the Star's got a good bit of prestige.
BRADEN: And it did think in a way because of old Colonel Ayers.
BRADEN: And, and his politics and being a political figure--(coughs)--and of course I liked him 'cause he was Elise's father. But, and he was interested in me because I was a friend of Elise's and all that. But, um, um, Ed, I don't know where Ed had been. He came back from somewhere. He had a tendency to drink some, most everybody on the newspapers drank in those days. And he would after the, after the paper was put to bed and all that, he'd, in the afternoons he would get out a bottle and he'd give me a drink and we'd sit around and talk. 63:00And I think he felt frustrated. He was probably, he would like to have been more successful, you know, and stuff like that. But he was, um, and he wasn't particularly idealistic about anything. Generally, I found, my impression was that the newspaper people in those days tend to be what I would have called liberal, then.
FOSL: Um-hm, sure.
BRADEN: Held liberal views and they thought the people they were writingfor did. And, um, so he was just friendly. And when I decided to, that summer, would a been the summer of '46, I guess, when I--
BRADEN: --went over to North Carolina and began interviewing at otherpapers for jobs and went over to stay on the beach and just get away from everything for awhile--
FOSL: Now was that by yourself?
BRADEN: I went by myself. Later Lu-, but Lucile came later. I was overthere a week or two by myself. And he told me where to go. He was from, I remember that now. He was from Wilmington.
BRADEN: And I didn't know anything about the coast. I wanted to go, Ididn't want to go to a resort area. I just wanted to go where there 64:00wasn't anybody. And he put me in touch with somebody he knew that had a house where I rented a room or something.
FOSL: Oh, all right. [noise] Okay.
BRADEN: And, um--
FOSL: And this would a been early summer or--
BRADEN: Well, it was probably July maybe or something. I don't know.
BRADEN: But I was definitely, I, I don't know what it was, but I wantedto get away from everything for some reason. And I told him that, he said, "Yeah, he could find a place I could stay." And I talked to the people, went over and rented this room. And it wasn't a resort. I can remember just going out by myself walking long walks on the beach and stuff.
BRADEN: Then later I was in touch with Lucile and she came and maybestayed there a little while with me. And then we went up to Raleigh, and I went to see the people at the Raleigh paper. And I came over here to Louisville--
BRADEN: --during that period, too. And, um, I don't know if I wentanywhere else or not. Then, um--
FOSL: You must a gone to--
BRADEN: --so he was--
BRADEN: --I don't know whether, yeah, maybe I did. Maybe I did. So--
FOSL: 'Cause I've got a letter that you wrote to, uh, the editor of theCourier-Journal said--turning down the job there, which I guess was, 65:00been the women's--
BRADEN: In the women's--
BRADEN: --department. That's right.
FOSL: And saying you'd already taken a job in Birmingham and you weregonna go with that.
BRADEN: Yeah. Yeah.
FOSL: That was in August.
BRADEN: Oh, it was in August. It was that, see, well, it may have beenearlier in the summer then--
BRADEN: --that I went to North Carolina. And, um, so Ed was realfriendly. And then there was that Hugh Brown, you mentioned his name.
BRADEN: And he was, he was sort of a drunk. They were all kind ofdrunks. Um, but he was, he was a good writer. And he would, um, when he was sober, he was fine. I don't remember much about his ideas, but I enjoyed sitting around talking with him. You know, it was just a, and we'd do, there was a restaurant across the street and we'd go over there and sit and talk and have coffee and I thought it was exciting and, and, um, it was just more exciting than the world with the, I'd been in in Anniston and I just never saw my old friends that much.
BRADEN: And, um--
FOSL: Where was the Star in Anniston -----------(??)?
BRADEN: On West 11th Street, right off of, um, about a block and a halfwest of Mobile Street, ----------(??). So we were just, Mobile of 66:00course was the main street and, um, and the courthouse, well, it was right, I, I guess the courthouse is the same place. It was right- -straight across the street from the courthouse. And City Hall was somewhere else. It was a few blocks away.
FOSL: Right. And, uh, this restaurant, you don't remember the name?
BRADEN: Unh-uh. It was just a little cafe where, where people from thepaper hang--hung out and people from the courthouse.
BRADEN: And there are always various (??) places like that. Well, Idon't whether there are now. Used to be here, too--
BRADEN: --well, after I came here.
FOSL: Right. Well, it was ----------(??) that one on Jefferson Street.
BRADEN: Well, that wasn't a hangout place though.
FOSL: That was more out of the way ----------(??)------------
BRADEN: That was more of a restaurant. No, but there's always some kindof place--there was--when I, I can remember being with Bob Zolling (??) in some of these places where the courthouse people come in and the lawyers and there are a lot of lawyers around that, too, you know, just hangers-on--
BRADEN: --and the newspaper people, and they hang out together, kind of,that, s-, and all that stuff. I don't know whether that's still, well, it probably does still happen. There are places down, there's some kind of a bar or something down near the Courier now. I think they all 67:00go there.
FOSL: There's a place like that in Roanoke where all the newspaperpeople hang and--
FOSL: And even Atlanta, although it's not quite, you know, it's more likethat's where they go drinking after work. It's not near the paper.
FOSL: Um, but it sounds like this guy, Hugh Brown, had more of a seriousdrinking problem. The reason I'm referring now to a letter that Harriet sent you where she was, like, begging you, please, please, please ask Mr. Brinkley to let you come, you know, let you have the time off to come to New York even if Hugh does go on a bender. 'Cause evidently Brinkley had said, "I don't mind if you go off and see your friend in New York, as long as Hugh's here."
FOSL: But if he gets drunk, then I need--(Braden laughs)--you to stay.
BRADEN: That's probably true. Yeah.
FOSL: So, um--
FOSL: --it sounded like there was--
BRADEN: No, I think he did have, and I don't think Ed didn't have aserious drinking problem. He edited the paper very well.
FOSL: Um-hm. Well--
BRADEN: And, um--
FOSL: Well, I goes sometime in the late fall of '45, and it really wasaround the same time you had this conflict with your parents about wanting to take this second job on the cycle--
FOSL: --there was a big confrontation between your parents and you about68:00your drinking.
BRADEN: Oh really?
FOSL: That you and Harriet discussed in your letters. Although, again,I only know this 'cause of what she said--
BRADEN: Um-hm. Well, I drank a lot and, you know, I didn't drink duringthe day.
BRADEN: But, I mean, everybody drank after--
BRADEN: --you got off from work.
FOSL: It was like coming in later than they wanted you to come in andcoming in, quote, a little tight.
FOSL: That was the word you used because--
FOSL: --Harriet quoted you.
BRADEN: Um-hm. Yeah.
FOSL: And I don't know what they said, you know, but do you rememberthat as a peaceful time between you and your parents, living here?
BRADEN: I don't remember it being particular bad. I just don't havemuch recollection of anything. I just was living my own life sort of, it seemed like.
FOSL: When did you learn to drive?
BRADEN: Oh, I got, when, right before I was sixteen. I got my licenseright after I was sixteen years old.
FOSL: Okay. So, like, when you went on this summer trip, would you takeyour parent's car or did you travel by bus?
BRADEN: Oh, I think I went on the bus.
FOSL: The bus?
BRADEN: Yes, that's my recollection. I didn't drive around. I didn't69:00have a car. But, um, and I don't know if they had but one car then. Later they had two, maybe they had two by then.
BRADEN: But they would let me, I guess, well, they must a gotten twocars 'cause my father would be traveling in a car even when I was in high school, because Mother would let me use her car. 'Cause after, see, I was sixteen before my senior year in high school.
BRADEN: And so I would use the car. I didn't drive it to school. Iused to ride sometimes. Tom McNaron had this old, um, Model T--
BRADEN: --or Model A, and it was real open, you know, and people,everybody would pile on his car and go back and forth to school on it. And some way I got on those rides sometimes. And I could walk to school. There were some times I did that, even up to the high school. But--so I didn't take the car to school. But I would have it for things I wanted to do when it got dark (??). You know.
FOSL: Um-hm. But then after you were at home living as an adult, livingwith your parents again--
FOSL: --they would just let you use their car sometimes?70:00
BRADEN: --I, yeah, that's right. I would borrow the car for thingsI did for the paper, too, I think, sometimes. 'Cause I had a wreck. That's the only wreck I ever had in my life.
FOSL: Oh really? Tell me about that.
BRADEN: I had a wreck with, but in Daddy's car. (laughs) Um, oh yeah,it was, it was, um, and I don't know whether that was when I was there to work in the summer or when I was back there after college. I don't know. But I was out on an assignment somewhere out in the countryside and it was just one of those things I, I can remember. I, I realized I needed to turn off to the left onto some country road, and I didn't realize it till late. So I just turned. And there was this car coming up behind me, and I hadn't signaled I was turning and they hit me. But I, it, and it kind of damaged the car pretty bad. But didn't hurt me. And I, 'cause I remember that, and the cops came or something. And, um, and, so, I had gotten out and told the guy, I said, "Well, I'm sorry. It was my fault. I didn't signal. "And I remember the cop told me later, he said, "Don't ever jump out of the car and say it was your fault." He says, "It wasn't necessarily, 'cause he should a been 71:00far enough behind you to stop."
FOSL: Right, when somebody hits you in the back--(Braden laughs)--it'stheir fault.
BRADEN: So I don't know whatever happened. Of course, Daddy hadinsurance. But that's the only wreck I ever had in my life. I still haven't had one. I won't say that.
FOSL: Yeah, ----------(??)----------.
BRADEN: But my car is so dented, my car is so dented up, and, you know,what I have done over and over in recent--and Beth did it one time to my car, she was driving, is I tend to run into people in parking lots or they run into me. Or I'll be backing up, getting ready to--here's a car and, and, well, and I did, well, I did have this, yeah, that, that fender that's all torn up on the--
BRADEN: --left hand side that I just don't want to spend the moneyto fix. They want to put a whole new fender on it. No, that was, I guess, you'd call it a wreck. I was coming home just a few years ago, and I was turning down that--coming off the expressway, you know, to get to my house, and I was turning into that little shortcut by the grocery. And I just, I was sleepy. I remember. That was, might have been up to Seattle with Connie, and I was, hadn't recovered from jetlag or something. And I turned too sharp and hit this woman--(laughs)--as she was getting ready to turn. So I guess that would be a wreck. But I haven't had any serious wreck in my life. 72:00
FOSL: Is that right? Well, that's lucky.
BRADEN: ----------(??) see--
FOSL: 'Cause ----------(??).
BRADEN: --I do get the fenders bent.
FOSL: Well, um, I'm conscious of the time. So there's one--
BRADEN: Oh yeah. Okay.
FOSL: --more thing I wanted to ask you about, which is, oh, here's,here's a question, when you, you love to dance and were very involved in dance in college, and then that was kind of the end of it when you left college? You never did any more with that other than just social dancing?
BRADEN: Yeah, well, let me go to the bathroom. I'll be back.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: --for me. Um, no, I've got to, you know, while I was in highschool I finally--I don't think I wasn't (??) too good when I first started going to dances when I was in about the seventh or eighth grade, I always felt real awkward. But by the time I finished high school, I was a real good dancer. And, you know, we jitterbugged. That's what you did. (laughs)
BRADEN: And waltzes and other things. You know. And that was what youdid, you went to--
BRADEN: --dances. And I was a real good dancer. And, but then I didn't,I can't remember dances being a big part of my life after high school. Because they weren't in college. Now, they probably would a been, 73:00but, you see, by the time I got to college weren't any men around.
BRADEN: And, I think, like, Stratford and Randolph-Macon, too, exceptfor the war, they always had men coming from the University of Virginia and Washington and Lee and all those places, and they would have dances. But there weren't any men. I mean, those, you know, really just everybody was gone to the war.
BRADEN: So I guess there was some of that. But I never remembered beingthat much involved in dances in college. And then when I'd come back, well, certainly, I know, I can remember being at home for Christmas my first year in college and I went to a lot of dances. I can remember some with, with Bobby, I was going with Bobby then. And, um, and everybody was there and was sort of coming home. But the World War shadow was already over people. I can remember sitting there at a dance with Bobby. We were sitting on the side, and, and him saying, "Just look around." He says, "Half of these people here, here tonight, will be dead within the next few years." You know. And there was that 74:00sort of feeling. Of course Pearl Harbor had just happened. And, um, but there was, I, that first Christmas I think there were a bunch of dances 'cause people were home. I can't remember, maybe my sophomore year, too. I don't remember. And then of course while I was still in high school I'd gotten to go into what these, what they called the ROTC dances--
BRADEN: --in the summer when the ROTC boys, as we called 'em, would bethere and I had two or three love affairs and that sort of thing. And they had dances, and you went to those dances. I don't even remember, and I'm sure that then during the war there were dances like that at Fort McClellan.
FOSL: Yeah, yeah.
BRADEN: But I don't even remember going to them a lot. I may have.But, like, Chuck, the guy, the tennis player that I went with. I'd go, he was teaching me to play tennis and we would go walk around places and go sit up in the cemetery. I don't know how we got attached to that cemetery. But I can't really remember going to dances with him. I don't know whether he danced or not, he played tennis. So I don't remember ballroom dancing, as we called it, being a part of my 75:00life much after high school--
FOSL: You didn't? Um-hm.
BRADEN: --except maybe that first Christmas a home.
FOSL: But then your discovery of modern dance was very different.
BRADEN: It, it was totally different. Had nothing to do with that.
BRADEN: I got into that by accident, just because in my junior yearthere at Randolph-Macon, I never was athletic, and I didn't like taking gym. I liked to swim. That was the one sport I really loved to swim and I was a good swimmer. But I think I couldn't get into the swimming class. And of course I had, when did I know Chuck? I can't remember what year I met Chuck. He had begun to teach me tennis. But I can't remember whether that was, I could probably if I rack my brain, whether that was after, no, I think that was after my junior year I met Chuck.
FOSL: Yeah, I've never--
FOSL: --been able to place him chronologically.
BRADEN: It was probably, well, we met when I was home obviously. Ithink it was after my junior year, that summer.
BRADEN: But anyway I had to, I had, both------------(??) they hadrequired courses in those days. I had to sign up for some sort of gym.
BRADEN: And I didn't want to do that. So I signed up for the moderndance instead. That's all it was.
BRADEN: And I got into it, and then I just really loved it. Andthat's when I thought I was having a nervous breakdown, and I sort of recovered from having the nervous breakdown, well, well, I guess the thyroid helped, but, by, through the dance.
BRADEN: And, um, and then I got, and I never was real good, but Igot pretty good because I worked at it. And I'm not as good as some people, but, um, Mr. Owens, how are you?
MR. OWENS: Hey, I didn't want anything. I was just gonna show mynephew the library.
BRADEN: Well, while you're here--
FOSL: Oh, my ----------(??)--
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: --had a natural knack for the modern dance. See, some peoplehave it, but I worked at it real hard. So I got real good. And I was in the dance group ----------(??) I was good enough to be in the dance group. And we did various programs, and, you know, we did plays and all that, and, what was it? Murder in the Cathedral--
BRADEN: --and also the Greek plays, Clytemnestra and so forth. And Ilearned all that Greek. But, so I really was into it and I enjoyed it and I guess I did some other stuff in the drama department. But I guess that was my main interest, really, those last two years away 77:00at college. I never did, I don't think I ever worked on the paper at Randolph-Macon. ----------(??)--
FOSL: Well, you wrote for it.
BRADEN: Yeah, but I, never really, not like I did for--
FOSL: Yeah, right.
BRADEN: --the Stratford paper. But I really got into the dance ----------(??).
FOSL: Well, here's the quote--
BRADEN: But then I didn't, I didn't keep it up because there wasn't anyplace to keep it up. But I did those things. I still do some of those exercises.
FOSL: I knew you, you had taken--
BRADEN: And I used to go--
FOSL: --up yoga.
FOSL: Right? Uh, do you still--
BRADEN: Yeah, but I do yoga.
FOSL: --do yoga?
BRADEN: I still do yoga when I find time to do it. I do a little bitevery day. I don't do it very well, but I, but I learned that, by, you know, Eileen (??) signed me up in this class. But, and I went to some classes out in the ----------(??), and then I got that book about twenty-eight days and I followed that ----------(??), and I still do. And it says in that book that if you, once you do it, if you miss a few days, you'll feel different, and I do. So I try to, try to do some. But, and I still do some of those things I learned in dancing. But I used to, when I was first living in Louisville at, I guess after Carl and I met, and I was in the west end, I'd go down to ---------- (??) Park and go through some of the dance exercises and stuff. 78:00
BRADEN: So I kept it up to that extent. But I didn't ever try to get ina group--
BRADEN: --where I could have really kept it up. And I wish I had.'Cause you probably make me live longer and stuff like that. ------ ----(??)---------- pretty well anyway. But I didn't keep it up. But I kept in touch with Struppa some, who was the dance teacher.
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: Was a very good friend of Harriet's.
FOSL: Right, I knew that.
BRADEN: Um, and I, and then this, then I, well, I lost touch, I guess,with everybody in the dance group through the years. It's like I lost touch with everybody at Randolph-Macon. There was one woman who lives in Kentucky, I think she's still around, I read about these people in the alumni bulletin, who was a real good dancer. Was in the dance group maybe a year ahead of me, except Dot Berea, I've been in touch with--
BRADEN: --her at least ----------(??)------------
FOSL: Right, I've talked to her.
BRADEN: --of course she, had, yeah, 'cause she--now she was really,really good. I mean, she went into, went into professional with Martha Graham ----------(??)----------.
FOSL: Right. Well, it's interesting 'cause I have a kind of present-day connection to Dot Berea, because she's pretty involved with the 79:00American Dance Festival. And my neighbor across the street from me, who directs a dance program at Hollins, is also the program director--
BRADEN: Oh really?
FOSL: --of the American Dance Festival. So she really knows Dot verywell, and they see each other a lot. Then did she, although she lives in Hollins during the year, she really lives in Chapel Hill. So, you know, her husband's--
BRADEN: Dot separated from her husband ----------(??)?
FOSL: Yeah, a long time ago. I mean, well, five--
FOSL: --or six--seven years ago now.
BRADEN: Yeah, no, but not a lot because when I first ran into her inChapel Hill, I guess in the, what, early '60s--
FOSL: You and I were together, oh, no, no. That, not then.
BRADEN: No, no, in the early '60s ----------(??)----------.
[Pause in recording.]
FOSL: You and I ran into her together in June of '91 over there at thatSouthern Association of Women Historians.
BRADEN: Oh yeah.
FOSL: That's how I ever got her name.
BRADEN: Oh okay.
FOSL: You know, you and she were talking, and I remember that's when shetold you about her marriage breaking up--
BRADEN: Which had happened before then.
BRADEN: And so I guess her--of course her children are grown. She lost80:00one child, I remember that. We had that in common, but, but, um, --- -------(??)---------- they're growing up, so I guess so. I'm not sure what she's doing. She's ----------(??)--
FOSL: She does a lot with American Dance Festival. I don't know, Idon't think she's really dancing anymore. But, you know--
FOSL: --but does a lot of support work and that sort of thing.
FOSL: Well, let me just read to you this quote, okay? And then you justtell me how you respond to it or how you responded to it then. This is what you wrote. You wrote, "There has always been an unhealthy distinction in my mind between the material and the spiritual." Um, "Much that is wrong in our world can be traced back to the, to the separation of the material and the spiritual. Dance has taught me about the union of the spiritual and material being." Now that's, this is, you know, collapsed. I'm leaving out some stuff here. "One is absolutely dependent on the other. To think of them separately is to 81:00render them meaningless."
FOSL: So I just wanted you to talk a little bit about your understandingof the material and the spiritual, 'cause that seemed to be a theme for you in those years.
FOSL: And I wondered what you thought of it.
BRADEN: First of all, did I write that?
FOSL: Yeah. You did.
BRADEN: Yeah, where?
FOSL: In an essay on Keats in which you talked a lot about modern dance,too--
FOSL: --for probably, uh, Miss Cornelius or somebody like that.
BRADEN: Um-hm. That's who ----------(??)--
FOSL: --I don't know.
BRADEN: --talk ----------(??)----------. Um, well, I'd, I came acrosssomething recently that I wrote in college, but I don't have (??) a lot of that stuff and I think I was, I was very much into sort of looking at the spiritual side of life, right, at that time.
BRADEN: And I didn't have much, and I didn't know much about what washappening in the world, but it was a, I can remember a speech I wrote or something like that when I went back to Stratford to talk once. And, and I had this sense that there wasn't enough, um, the world 82:00wasn't--or society wasn't spiritual--(laughs)--enough and that kind of thing. I didn't know much about what was happening in the world, and I think, you know, I was, I was, as I would see things later, I certainly was overemphasizing that, because I was looking at it from my middle class perspective basically, you know. And I had to change all that. But as far as the, the, that sort of thing there, I know what I was talking about. I think the dance did sort of, just what it says there, that I began to, because I, I thought I was losing my mind that fall. And once I got control of my body, my mind got all right. And I thought, well, what if those things are related, my mind and body are the same thing.
BRADEN: Basically, I think I'm what they, it's called a dualist. Ithink basically I've always kind of had this separation in my mind of the spirit and the body. And, um, or, you know, I know where they merge and that kind of thing. But I think, instinctively, I'm a dualist. And it's, and I think didn't I show you that, did I show you 83:00that little thing that they quoted me in the paper about--
FOSL: You told me you were--
FOSL: --going to, and I wanted to see it. But you've never--
BRADEN: Well, I--
FOSL: --shown it to me.
BRADEN: --it's there, I've never thrown it away. So it's somewhere.I'm not quite sure where it is. I thought I knew where it was. But when I, I go through some things I'll find it. It's just a short thing. They wanted to know my idea of heaven, and I said, and I wrote and said I thought it'd be great because you wouldn't have to bother with, bodies are a nuisance. They have to eat and they have to sleep, and I still feel that way. I do not want to waste time sleeping.
BRADEN: It just makes me furious I have to do that. And it's not that Idon't enjoy food, but I just don't have time to eat.
BRADEN: So I--and I think bodies are a nuisance. And it's, I'd ratherbe just a pure spirit. I mean, that's just my instinct. So I think that's never left me.
BRADEN: And that, I think that in philosophy that's called dualism.
FOSL: Okay, yeah. Huh.
BRADEN: In personal terms. Now, social terms, after I learned somethingabout historical materialism and dialectical--
BRADEN: --materialism and all that--
BRADEN: --I, you know, I came to agree, and I think it's true, thatpeople's minds and ideas are shaped by their material conditions. 84:00
BRADEN: And if you're hungry you think different, that's all, from whatyou think if you're not hungry. And, or if you have a nice place to live, you think different. So I understand the connection that way, but my own instincts are dualistic.
FOSL: Um-hm. Huh. Okay, well, that's helpful because I--
FOSL: --you know, I, I've understood that on, in some ways. But I justfelt there was a link between what you said to me about that piece on heaven--
FOSL: --and this quote. So I appreciate your clarifying it.
BRADEN: Yeah, I'll, I'll come across that. It's just a little shortquote. (laughs) He's (??) quoting other people.
BRADEN: But it's just what I think.
FOSL: Okay. Well, I think we're about done then. There is--
FOSL: --uh, there's two things I want you to think about--
[Pause in recording. ]
BRADEN: --neither one of 'em. I, I always felt when, at home, see,Mother didn't leave us much. She believed in mothers taking care of the children. But every once in a while she would go off somewhere and my, her mother would come every other winter and spend the whole winter with us. The other one--
BRADEN: --she'd go spend with my aunt. And she got to be sort of a85:00fixture around the house. And I felt pretty comfortable around her. But I always felt awkward when Mother wasn't in the house, sort of, you know. I felt comfortable with Mother and I didn't with, with them. But she was all right. But I always felt a little awkward with Mama May (??), we called her, although she wasn't a bit overbearing. She, in fact, she was, um, she was just being, always being sweet. But I just didn't feel, I remember I'd come in she said, "I'm gonna fix your breakfast." And, I don't know, I just didn't feel comfortable-- (laughs)--around her. But--
BRADEN: --I don't know. But, but she--
BRADEN: --but it wasn't any of her doing. She was just as solicitousas you could be. But I guess I was really attached to my mother, I guess. And just in the daily living that she just made life sort of smooth. She did all the things that, that need to be done, I guess, or something. I don't know what it was--
BRADEN: --'cause I wasn't close to her in terms of being able to reallytalk to her about my feelings that much.
FOSL: Now were the grand--
BRADEN: But it was a comfortable way--place to live. And, um, and she,and then Mama May (??) would, didn't stay with us for long lengths of 86:00time. She might come and stay a week or two.
FOSL: Well, that was my question. Were they often there together orusually not?
BRADEN: No, they were, they got along fine. But they, I don't think wehad room for both of them at the--
BRADEN: --same time. So they very rarely would be there together. But,um, and she spent more time, I think, with her other children, and I believe she did with, um, Lyda Scott (??) and Woody who had, you know, they both had children. One of em' had three, four, five, five of us -there, five. And I think the other one had three. She had two and then one child that's was severely retarded, kind of, and they put in a home. Uh, that was Woody. But, um, and I--and didn't know them real well. But, but we'd see 'em ----------(??) and Lyda Scott (??) was, I think, a lot like me. I, that was the thing. You see, my, in terms of, um--(laughs)--I think about it, I, I've got to get the clutter cleaned out of my house. See, see Dad-, Daddy cluttered things, you know. He never threw anything away. And Mother would just say, "If he 87:00would just not go anywhere on a vacation, just stay home and clear out these things, he'd feel so much better." Well, he never did till they finally moved to Virginia and he had to--
BRADEN: --and I went down and helped him go through some stuff.
BRADEN: And nobody else could, and, and my sister-in-law, Beverly, said,"You've been such a help to Granddaddy because you're--."
MADDY MATHIS: Excuse me. This has to be eaten hot. And I saw thisone's full of peanut butter. So, uh, I figured that was you and that's all you'd have.
BRADEN: You can, there's a whole jar of peanut butter down there, right?
MADDY MATHIS: But you just had a spoon of peanut butter this morning--
BRADEN: Oh I didn't--
MADDY MATHIS: ------------(??).
BRADEN: -- have anything this morning.
MADDY MATHIS: That's why--oh you didn't eat the peanut--
BRADEN: What is, what is--
MADDY MATHIS: --butter?
BRADEN: What is it?
MADDY MATHIS: Salmon croquette.
FOSL: Well, there you go.
BRADEN: Oh, how, you want one?
MADDY MATHIS: Would you want some?
BRADEN: This is my friend, Cate Fosl.
MADDY MATHIS: Hello.
BRADEN: That's Maddy Mathis.
MADDY MATHIS: Would you like, would you like some?
BRADEN: She thinks I don't eat. I'll give her one of these 'causeone's--
FOSL: I'll just eat one little of those--
BRADEN: --enough for me.
FOSL: --and I've got--
MADDY MATHIS: Okay.
FOSL: --to get on the road. But thank you.
MADDY MATHIS: Are you sure? You're welcome.
FOSL: I'm sure.
MADDY MATHIS: Okay.
BRADEN: She's always giving me things to eat.
MADDY MATHIS: ----------(??)
BRADEN: She doesn't think I eat enough. Here, you eat one of theseactually, they taste pretty good.
FOSL: (laughs) Okay. Thank you.
BRADEN: Um, what is this? What is this? Macaroni?88:00
FOSL: Looks like it.
BRADEN: Yeah. Okay. You want some of that?
FOSL: Mmm. No, I'm fine.
BRADEN: Um, but, but, and, but he never did. And I would, I--(laughs)--I went through all that stuff with him. She says, "You're patient with him, none of the rest of us are." 'Cause I knew, I understand him. We threw away a lot of stuff. But I, and then Mother said, you know, and she didn't do anything about me, but I'm the same way. She said, "If, if Lyda Scott had just some time been willing to go through and throw things away," because then when she died somebody else had to do it.
BRADEN: You know? So it must be something genetic. (laughs) But she wasvery--she was real smart.
FOSL: Mama May?
BRADEN: No, Lyda Scott.
BRADEN: Well, Mama May was, too, I think. And, uh, you know, she was asocial worker. She got pretty cynical about people, I think. -------- --(??) still, Betty told me that.
BRADEN: But, and she wanted to be a mother. But she, she worked whenthey were little. And she told me later, she never really liked being 89:00away from 'em. She wanted to be with 'em. But I don't know if she did. I mean, I think she enjoyed working too. That was the thing, women--
FOSL: These are delicious. I've never really cared--
BRADEN: They're pretty good.
FOSL: --for these, but these are great.
FOSL: Oh, oh, here's just one little piece I wanted to go back and pickup on a completely different subject. Fred Shuttlesworth told me about this young woman from, a white woman from Birmingham--
BRADEN: Um-hm, I don't know what's become of her. He sent her up here.He didn't know what to do with her.
FOSL: Who was she?
BRADEN: I can't think of her name. But I, she got, I, we could findout. She got a, I got her a Davis Fund scholarship. So she was in the brochure one year. We thought she--
FOSL: How long ago was this?
BRADEN: It was while he was still in Birmingham. Um--
FOSL: Not Anita Smith.
BRADEN: Unh-uh. Anita Smith? No, that's somebody, she lived here.
FOSL: Yeah. He said this young girl came up here to live with you.
BRADEN: Um-hm, she did. For a while.
BRADEN: She stayed here. He sent her up here. He didn't know what90:00to do with her. See, that was the problem about white people, really coming forth then. She just lived in Birmingham. She wanted to do something. She was young. She had, I don't know whether she had been to college or was just ready to go to college. And her family kind of disowned her. That's why we got her a scholarship. She went to get involved in the demonstrations.
BRADEN: But it wouldn't a been the big ones, 'cause, see, he had movedaway from Birmingham by the time of '63. Although, it could, well, it actually could have been, 'cause he was back all the time. But some way she came forward to identify with the movement. And, you know, he appreciated it. He had no idea what to do with the woman. And--
FOSL: And I guess you were, and she was having a lot of problems withher family because of this, right? (??)
BRADEN: Yeah, and he didn't know what to do with her, so he sent her--(laughs)--up here. And, so, and I didn't know what to tell her to do in Birmingham either. So she stayed here, and we got her a scholarship to go to Tulane. Or maybe she was already at, had had a year at Tulane or her family wasn't gonna pay for her to go or something.
FOSL: But you don't remember her name?
BRADEN: No, but I could find that, that out, she's somewhere on the91:00Davis Fund rosters.
BRADEN: And I don't whatev-, and then she disappeared after that. Shedidn't stay in the movement even though we all say the Davis Fund people do.
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: But, so I don't know what's become of her.
FOSL: But now, she was not the same woman that was staying here helpingyou when Carl was in prison?
BRADEN: Unh-uh. No, you mean Dawn, what's her name? Dawn--
FOSL: I can't think of it. I'd know it if I heard it.
BRADEN: Dorothy. Dorothy. No, unh-uh. She was totally a differentperson.
BRADEN: Dorothy somebody. She was married after that remarried. Andhad another name. I suspect she's died in recent years, maybe. Um--
FOSL: And then Anita Smith was later on yet, right?
BRADEN: She was there when my Anita died. But she was from here inLouisville.
BRADEN: She was the one whose father was a minister at the church whereI go now, which was then a white church. And we didn't belong to that 92:00church, we belonged to this other one that they later closed. But--
FOSL: And what was the name of that one?
BRADEN: Redeemer. Well, the one, well, the one that--
BRADEN: We had originally gone, when we first started going to church itwas Saint Stephens up in the east end, not the far east end, but near to town, 'cause I met the minister there, Albert Dalton.
FOSL: Right, I knew there was a Saint Stephen 'cause I, I, I misspokewhen I was talking to Carla and said Saint Stephens and she said, "No, it's not that." And then I thought--
BRADEN: ----------(??) Episcopal--
FOSL: --Saint George.
BRADEN: No, Saint, well, Saint George now.
FOSL: Right, but, well, that's what--
BRADEN: Well, we, we, but--
FOSL: --we were talking about is now.
BRADEN: And we went to Saint Stephens. And I've talked to you, I think,about Albert Dalton.
FOSL: Yeah, you have.
BRADEN: Um-hm. That's why I went there. And then at some point,well, they closed that church so we moved to Redeemer over here. And there was a man named Thomas Kelley there. He's, he's in Jackson, I should look him up some time. Hmm. And he was involved in things. Quiet sort of guy. Shouldn't a been a minister. I think he left the ministry. But, but Anita's, but Saint George's, this fat, Robert Smith 93:00was the minister. ----------(??) know him then, and Myrtle Smith (??), his wife. Um, Kelley (??) came to see us one day, minister of Redeemer and wanted to know if we might be willing to take this girl in, she needed a place to stay. Now, it turned out, see, he had been having sex relations with her since she was eight.
FOSL: The, the father.
BRADEN: The minister, yeah.
FOSL: Her minister?
BRADEN: Oh yeah.
BRADEN: And he went to prison.
FOSL: Oh, gosh.
BRADEN: And she was supposedly, I was trying to help her rebuild herlife. But she came, then she went to secretarial school and stayed there. She was, I liked her a lot. She had a--(laughs)--string of boyfriends coming in and out. But she was real nice to my kids. Until my Anita, and--
BRADEN: --she stayed there till one time C.T. Vivian came throughrecruiting people to go on his, to Chicago where they were starting a 94:00whole project up there.
BRADEN: SCLC was. And she went up there. And then, but I, then fromthere and stayed, and then even-, eventually she moved to the West Coast. And I, I think I saw her when I was in the Bay Area once within the last fifteen years or something. She had a real hard life. And the other, and then, but we got to know--
[End of interview.]