FOSL: This isn't really necessarily something that I would even wantright now at the point that I'm with--that we could do it, but in terms of--Helen Lewis told me about some Mellon funds that I might be able to apply for to continue working on this. And they don't have to be--you don't have to be like a scho-, I mean, you have to be, I guess some kind of scholar, but you don't have to, like, have a Ph.D. or be part of any kind of institution or anything. She'd gotten some for the project she's been working on. But what you, what, what you might have to have is, uh, you know, might have to sort of emphasize this relationship to Appalachia, you know. Like the work SCEF did in Appalachia. And, and, um, you know, I guess the Pike County sedition from when--and, and I guess I'm just wanting to, to get some, you know, some additional details from you as to how you would suggest sort of 1:00playing up that angle, just in talking with these folks. Not, you know, this isn't for publication or anything, but I'm not up to the point in per-, the, the, that SCEF Appalachia project. So, I don't really even know very much about it.
FOSL: But could just sort of, you know, just give me a few ideas abouthow to--(pause)--so, anyway, that's just for fundraising purposes. But I just--
FOSL: --you know, you know, just would like to get some input from you asto your suggestions on, you know, just relating like the work that you all did in Appalachia. And then-- yeah. Just a little bit on that.
FOSL: Enough to be able to talk coherently about it. You know when I'm,when I'm talking with ----------(??).
BRADEN: Well, it was a very important part of SCEF's work. Have you2:00read the ----------(??) thing? I think he may cover it.
FOSL: But I--see, I'm sort of--(Braden coughs)--doing this whole thingwith periods, and I'm only up until about, like, 1962 or something like that.
FOSL: So, I, I haven't really read that more, you know, the more recentpart.
BRADEN: I don't know what he says, but I'm sure he covers it.
FOSL: Well, maybe I should just refer to that.
BRADEN: Well, also there's a whole lot of--there again, there's a lotof stuff at Wisconsin, after --there was, as I remember writing a whole ten year report on the Southern Mountain Project, the whole concept of it was, it flowed out of the whole program SCEF at that point.
FOSL: Um-hm. Which was shortly after you had, sort of, voted to includethe more economic stuff as, as well as ----------(??).
BRADEN: It was really a return to the program--
FOSL: Yeah, right.
BRADEN: ----------(??) in a way.
FOSL: Okay. Well, I'll just read that then, I think. I'm concerned3:00'cause I feel like I have to talk to those people in the next few days. And I don't know much about that Southern Mountain Project. You know, that wasn't something I was working with--
FOSL: --in Madison when I was there. I just--in fact, I don't thinkI even went past the sedition case when I was there 'cause there's so much--
FOSL: --in the Southern Conference papers and on the sedition case.That, you know, I spent like a week and half doing that. I need to really go up there and spend a month at least. Okay, um, in looking through the Columbia interview, um, you talked a little bit about, uh, your view of how and why the witch-hunts got started, and then sort of picked up momentum, and I wondered if you would say a little bit more about that.
BRADEN: That's a big subject, Cate.
FOSL: It is a big subject. Do you think that's too long of a4:00conversation?
BRADEN: I don't think I'm up to this sort of stuff right now.
FOSL: Well--okay, well, let me just throw out a few things at youthat you can, you know, maybe sort of react to more without that much thought. Also, just a few factual things. Like, for instance, there's, um, there's several references to, I guess, during the Civil Rights Movement, there was a group who were maybe staying at your house--I mean, there were a lot of different people staying at your house--but at some point, you refer to the Gandhi Corps. And, and I know in the interview, you said, "Oh, well, that's a whole another story." And I haven't found any more on that story, whatever it might be.
BRADEN: That was in '64, I think. Was it the Corps? Gandhi something--it must have been, it was part of the--SDS set up projects all over the country that summer. And they were supposed to be organizing really 5:00for a group called IGAP (??), whatever that stood for.
BRADEN: And ----------(??).
FOSL: Something Action Program.
BRADEN: And it was Tom Hayden's notion, I think. And they were supposedto be organizing for white people, but they didn't do that here. They didn't even try, I don't think. But a guy named Bill Dady, who was beyond enthusiastic, and a little crazy--a nice looking guy--from Rochester, New York, or somewhere was--came down here, stayed at our house, I think. I'm trying to think. And they brought a whole group of people here.
FOSL: What's his last name again?
BRADEN: Dady. D-a-d-y. I don't know what became of him. And therewas a whole bunch of 'em, I can't remember. I kept in touch with some of 'em for a few years around here. I have their names somewhere. Anyway, they finally, they stayed here--a very sweet girl from Colorado, I think ----------(??) for a while. And they finally got 6:00themselves a house somewhere up in the central part of town. And-- supposedly in a low income part of the neighborhood. But I don't --- -------(??) what to do, really. But Dady some way got ----------(??) started working, got to working with some of the local blacks. Some of the black kids out in the housing projects. Right out 34th Street, out near where you met Tom once.
BRADEN: And formed this thing called the Gandhi Corps, and theywere, met, and they were very enthusiastic. They did all kinds of things. And they were trying to--by that time the downtown had been integrated, but a lot of places outside of downtown weren't. So, they had to sit-ins at various places, and there was whole lot of ---------- (??) cities and demonstrations over at Fontaine Ferry Park--
BRADEN: -- which was an amusement park. And it's been torn down at theend Broadway. 7:00
FOSL: I went to it often as a child.
BRADEN: Um-hm. ----------(??) Broadway and the Market. And, um--they,they had a swimming pool. I can't remember that thing, we, I got pictures somewhere of that picket line--I can't remember whether the park, by that time, was open to blacks. It was just the swimming pool they were trying to integrate. But Carl got arrested over there one time. But there was a series, I don't think I did, dragged him off-- I might have a picture somewhere--(laughs)--dragging him off. But anyway, they were doing things all summer, and the, and Jim, my son, got involved with them a little bit, and it was--one of the few times he got involved in some of that stuff. And he--they had a sit-in up at Hasenour's which was a restaurant.
FOSL: What's the name?
BRADEN: Hasenour's. It's still there. It's quite a fancy restaurantnow. But up on East Oak and Jim went on that. And it was all 8:00happening about the time Anita died, my daughter.
BRADEN: In fact, Jim got arrested the night that she was in the hospital.And she died the next day, I think. Or two days later I guess. But anyway he called up from jail--I remember him saying, "Did I do the right thing?" I said, "What'd you do?" He said--(laughs)--"Do I do the right thing to sit in front of the police car?" That's--I got a picture of him too sitting there. ----------(??) there's something else [vehicle beeping] sitting in front of the door at Hasenour's. Anyway, they all got arrested, and they got charged with delinquencies or something. It was a whole hassle all summer. And there was a lot of attack on them because from, um--see, the big demonstrations involved a lot of young people here, and three years before that. And that was all over. And everybody--all the powers that be thought it'd all be all over. And, um, and because we were involved, I guess. We weren't directly involved but Bill Dady was connected with us or something. So 9:00it was all constant attack. And the interesting thing was that they, they charged all these kids eventually with delinquency, including Jim. And we had to--(Fosl clears throat)--fly back from Rhode Island that summer for a court appearance. But it finally got resolved. At least the charges were dropped. But I think they were dropped on all. The problem was that some of these other kids had police records--
BRADEN: --because they were all a bunch of juvenile delinquents. Andthe interesting thing was that that was the first summer they hadn't gotten in any other trouble.
BRADEN: Because they had something to do.
FOSL: But these were local kids that you're talking about now?
BRADEN: Oh, yeah, the black ones were.
FOSL: Right. Okay.
BRADEN: These, these were--SDS people came in. But I don't think anyof the rest of them, except Bill Dady were ever involved in this. This was his thing. He worked with 'em and it was really good for those kids. And they, and we were so furious at people for charging them with juvenile delinquency 'cause it was the first year they hadn't been juvenile delinquents.
BRADEN: You know? You know, they'd, they'd arrested for stealing andstuff like that, and they didn't get into any trouble that summer. And 10:00I can't remember--I guess because they were in court, or something--I remember talking to a lot of people about it. Maybe writing some stuff about it somewhere. But people were so blind, they couldn't see that this was really helping these kids. It was the best thing that ever happened to them. And they--
FOSL: So, that's probably in Madison, too.
BRADEN: --and the thing is--well, if I, yeah. I think I wrote thingsabout it. There was a Catholic priest, Father John Loftus (??). He's dead now, who sort of took him under his wing and I don't know how--I guess he'd been peripherally involved in some of the civil rights stuff. And Dady met him or something. And he--they made him the chaplain of the Gandhi Corps. And he defended him. But practically nobody else did. And it was sort of like--I mean the attitude of even some of the established civil rights people around here was that this was just stirring up trouble. Everything was ----------(??), they really attacked those people. But it finally got--and they hung around here all summer. Um--
FOSL: Now, excuse me for interrupting, but by '64, Fontaine Ferry wasnot desegregated?
BRADEN: And I can't remember when it did, maybe it didn't--sometimebefore that summer was over, but that's when the demonstrations were. 11:00I think that maybe it meant--had been something in '63 ----------(??). So, so, they hung around all summer, and it was, uh--but they--I think really the attacks on the family sort of broke up the Gandhi Corps. And it was really too bad because all those kids began to get in to trouble again because they didn't have anything constructive to do. Dady left, I guess, after the end of the summer to go back to school.
BRADEN: ----------(??) school after that. And then one of them, ThomasScott--
BRADEN: --brilliant guy. He had a brother. And they were mixed upkids. They were--his mother was Filipino and his father was black, I think, and I've forgotten what it was. She wanted to be better than the blacks. You know, it was like that whole kind of stuff. And, um, 12:00and he sort of hung around on the periphery of things for a while. And it seems to me that at one point C. T. Vivian came through here going to Chicago. That was when he was all involved in stuff in Chicago, they were having Martin Luther King (??) stuff up there. ----------- (??) labor, I guess. But recruiting people--he set up something called The Urban Planning Center to train people to organize. And, uh, it was quite an institution for a while. And they brought people from all over the country, and he was getting people here--he was trying to recruit people here for it. And Thomas Scott was around or something and interested and, I don't think went up there for a while. And that sort of give him something to live for. But then he came back here and began to get in trouble. So he was arrested a couple of times for more serious things, but ----------(??), armed robbery or something. 13:00And finally he was robbing a--this was some years later, but it was still the sixties, I think. I don't know ----------(??), it may have been later. (Fosl clears throat) Yeah, during the '68 kind of little uprising here in the West End, I know Scott was around then 'cause I could see him at 28th and Greenwood, the way they were carrying on. But somewhere along the way, late sixties, early seventies, he was robbing a store and the police came in, and he was scared, and he ran in the closet, and he just shot and killed one of them. So, he was--or maybe two of them. And--so he was tried for murder and he was on death row. But he's out now. I haven't, I haven't seen him since he got out. He finally--I guess he, he may have got off-- I don't know how he got off death row. Whether it was when, 'cause I'm confused on the years, about it. But--and I guess it was '72 when the Supreme Court threw the death penalty out, and everybody got off of death row. 14:00
BRADEN: And eventually they got out. But I'm not sure that's how he gotout, but he did. And, um, he was on parole, and there was a story in the paper back just, oh, what, maybe four or five years ago. We were working on trying to get Tinsley (??) out.
BRADEN: And they were--he was working over in Frankfort or something.It was sort of a sensational story that it was designed to get him put back. But it didn't. But he's around here somewhere. I never saw him after he got out.
BRADEN: But, uh, Norville Tinsley, Denise's husband, must know moredetails about his case. Anyway, he got out, and I don't know what's happened to him. I hope he's okay.
FOSL: Now, where are they now? Norville and Denise?
BRADEN: She's in town, right now. She called--she was coming by thisafternoon. She just ----------(??). But she, um--but anyway, the whole point of it was that he was--the only time that guy had anything 15:00to live for was when he was in the Gandhi Corp, and you know, it was- -felt like he was a part of a movement. And then he tried to sort of reconnect I think by going up to Chicago. And--
FOSL: So, Tom Scott would have been in this Gandhi Corps, too?
BRADEN: Oh, he was one of them, yeah. He, he was only fourteen orfifteen. Looked grown though. Real good looking. Kind of tall. Looked like he was older than just fifteen. They were all fourteen, fifteen, or thirteen. But it was, you know, it was just kind of, he was tragic the way that the--that the attacks on them broke it up. He never had much to live for after that, he seems to be all right now. But they--I think he tried to sort of pull himself together through that going to Chicago, but ----------(??)--------- without having to struggle with ----------(??).
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Grandma ----------(??) Grandma ----------(??)Grandma. 16:00
BRADEN: And see, they were all friends of, um--in fact-- ----------(??).This girl who lived with us, Anita Smith.
BRADEN: --who came here and lived with us for some years then.
FOSL: There have been a few of them, uh.
BRADEN: Well, this was the daughter of an Episcopal minister here. Andhe had a lot of family trouble, and the Episcopal minister asked her-- us if we would take her in. She lived here for a number of years.
FOSL: I don't think that I've read anything about her, or you've told meanything about her.
BRADEN: She was here. I can't remember when she came. She was livinghere when Anita died--she ----------(??). Of course she was older, the daughter. She was, I think, a high school student. I think she had dropped out of high school, and she lived here and went to business school. And she was--(laughs)--she was kind of wild. Of course she was a sweet kid, but she-- I, I think a lot of the people--it may have been that she knew these people that some of them had got connected with the Gandhi Corps ----------(??). But she was living here around- 17:00-it had to have been for a couple of years, I think at least. She must have stayed here--she went--and that's what made me think of it--when C.T. came by looking for recruits to go to Chicago, she was sitting here, and she wanted to go. And I think she, I think that was when she did go--I think she left here and moved up to Chicago--
BRADEN: --went to the Urban Training Center, got to working for SCLCup there, and stayed for a while and then went out on the West Coast. And, um--
FOSL: So what years probably did she live here, just roughly?
BRADEN: Early sixties.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: No!
BRADEN: Anita ----------(??).
FOSL: Anita? Hmm?
BRADEN: Um-hm. [child crying]
FOSL: Here comes Ivan (??) I can tell you. (laughs) Um--
BRADEN: I don't know whether Beth has an address for her or not. We,we saw her when we were on the West Coast in the seventies. She was living out there. She's had a real hard life. I think she--not even 18:00sure that she had a couple of children. Beth may know. And had an unfortunate marriage and really had a hard time. But, I think maybe that's how--I think she knew all of, some of these kids, and then they recruited ----------(??) that were in the Gandhi Corps.
[Pause in recording.]
BRADEN: And--but so ----------(??) [child screaming] ----------(??) inmy lectures. And then they all got right back--
BRADEN: Thomas Scott took it to an extreme. But all of them didn't holdit against 'em.
FOSL: Okay, so, um, I think that's about it on that. Maybe I will findmore on the Gandhi Corps, or something you've written on it in Madison, when it comes to--wait and look. Um--okay, I'd like to just really 19:00briefly talk about, um, you know, you've mentioned before this whole, the period when you were in college that, you know, even though [child screaming] it wasn't common--you know, it's not really commonly found even in the literature of that er-, era, like--but that you all felt that you were the New South. You were against segregation. Maybe nobody was doing something about it, but, you know, sort of the old ways were being discarded, or being, you know, re-evaluated anyway. Do you think, or do you recall, um, you know, that the Cash book, Mind of the South, playing a role in that? I mean, was that like [child screaming] a hot topic for discussion?
BRADEN: I don't ----------(??)
FOSL: Because apparently that was, you know, on a lot of universitycampuses in the early forties.
BRADEN: I don't think I read that till I was in college.
FOSL: So, it was not something you read in college?
BRADEN: I don't think so.
FOSL: Well, you know, it was, of course, you know, banned, I think, in20:00some of the South, but, but heavily criticized in--
FOSL: --other areas. But it just sounded from what you'd said aboutRandolph-Macon, at least, that, you know, it could've been that that was a subject for study there. I just wanted to ask--
FOSL: --about it. It's incidental.
BRADEN: Yeah, it's hard for me to sort of document that. It's justmy, you know, I just feel like that was so, even people in Anniston, people ----------(??) you know, at that time. Um, but mainly Randolph- Macon--Shirley Strickland who was in my class at Randolph-Macon. [child screaming] Then went back there, went to Africa, and she did some work there.
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Shut the door.
BRADEN: And got to be a Ph.D. and all that and eventually went back andtaught there, taught at Randolph-Macon, and just retired in the last few years. I guess she's still around. But she-- [child screaming] I saw her----------(??) at Randolph-Macon. It was the early eighties ----------(??) or something. And she disagrees with me on that. She 21:00doesn't remember it that way.
FOSL: Yeah--you think--
BRADEN: But I think there was something--because she was very--I, I knewher. I mean, she was one of the people I used to sit up with at night and talk with. Well, we weren't close friends. But she had decided to go into some--work in some sort of labor (??) commitment. And she told me in the early eighties when we talked a bit, she felt very much under attack because of that decision--sort of ostracized by the other people in the state.
BRADEN: So, it's interesting her memory's different from mine, but Ifigure it must be why she was more serious about it.
BRADEN: I mean, I wouldn't plan on doing anything like that. And it wasjust sort of more casual sort of conversation.
FOSL: And her name is Shirley Strickland?
BRADEN: Shirley Swoose, Swoose, Shirley Strickland, and every-, and Icalled her Swoose. We all called her Swoose in college. S-w-double-o- s-e.
FOSL: Yeah. Because that was another question I had--would be, youknow, if you knew how to get in touch with her, I thought that would be an interesting perspective of Randolph-Macon. 22:00
BRADEN: You know, she ----------(??) what I do. But I was fixing tosay, I think it was because she was serious about it--
FOSL: And doing something.
BRADEN: ----------(??). Yeah, yeah. And we weren't. I wasn'tparticularly. But it was just more--it was like it was almost fashionable, it seems to me, to think you were part of the New South, and all that kind of stuff.
FOSL: Um-hm. Um-hm.
BRADEN: Um--but there again, nobody was doing anything about it. Butyou gotta, I think we've talked about this before. You have to remember World War II was going on, with all that atmosphere of fighting.
BRADEN: Superior race kind of thing.
BRADEN: And there was, there was, you know, all the stuff that I didn'tknow any detail about then, but all of the politics that came out of the Southern, Southern Conference and all those movements were ahead -- --------(??) you know? Um, there was kind of a new breed of politicians, and, and, like that. And I can't remember when Ellis Arnall came to prominence in Georgia [child screaming] but he was-- 23:00
FOSL: Forty-four, I think or '42.
FOSL: Forty-two or '44.
BRADEN: He was fighting the Klan, you know, he ----------(??). And thatwas sort of a during the day thing, plus, you know, the CIO was getting some ----------(??) during the war, there was a whole, um, you know, it was the, the, uh, PPC (??) issue during the war, the anti-lynch stuff. Um--(pause)--some of the people on the faculty at--that fellow at Randolph-Macon was very, they considered themselves liberals. So I, you know, I, I don't agree with Swoose. But I think maybe it was because as I said she was ----------(??) she was hostile to it really, I don't remember that at all. But she and I were in the same place. But she remembers it that way.
FOSL: Hmm. Okay, moving up a little bit into, um, the--I could come24:00here to Louisville--again, this might be more than you wanna tackle at this moment. But it might not be. Um [child screaming] you alluded a lot in various interviews to the work that you did against the Korean War. But, um, you know, the whole petitioning and getting egged. I mean, that, that happened to you all.
FOSL: Could you just talk a little bit about, like how, you know, howyou all got started doing this work against the war? What concretely you did? Now, I've got good stuff on, like, the parallel--I mean the differences, the contrasts between that and the anti-Vietnam War movement. But, you know, just like specifics, detail on that work, and the, you know, the group that you worked with. I guess it was--at that 25:00time, was it the, the Louisville Peace Crusade, or, or Louisville Women for Peace?
BRADEN: [child crying] I mean, there was, uh, none of those thingswere ever very big. You know, I can't remember. Um, I have to rack my brain. But I can ------------(??) the general syndrome but, um, you see, you see--it wasn't any--when I got into the Progressive Party, there were two thrusts of the Progressive Party as far as I was concerned. One was to break down segregation. The other was foreign costs.
BRADEN: You know? And there was, of course, a critical issue for thecountry because the, um, Truman administration, um, was renouncing 26:00the--all of the war time alliances--
BRADEN: -- you know, and was developing the nuclear bomb, and all thatkind of stuff. And, um, we felt like it was heading toward World War III, which I think it was. And Henry Wallace was calling for continuation and cooperation of the Soviet Union and the Wartime Peace Alliance.
BRADEN: And the United Nations, you know? And so that was a part of theProgressive Party program that made sense to me, so I identified with that. I didn't, um, I thought that foreign policy was, you know, those were the things that I cared about. And so, it, so [child screaming] you know, I worked with the Progressive Party a little in foreign aid, but not a lot because I was still at the newspaper. And then when the 27:00Progressive Party continued here after that--but I wasn't active in it for a while because that's when Carl and I went to work for the union--
BRADEN: -- and we were just all busy doing that. But we werestill concerned with those issues and so were those ----------(??) international wasn't always because that was the left wing of the CIO. And they were opposing the Marshall Plan and all those things.
BRADEN: They felt [child screaming] ----------(??) about the war whichI do think that. And, um, and they were talking about it, you know, to get those issues over to the membership and stuff like that. And when, when the H-bomb appeared on the scene--I can't remember when that was. It was the atomic bomb that, you know, Hiroshima. And then there was the H-bomb developed into a big issue. And I had formed this ladies auxiliary for farm equipment workers, you know. Which people who knew me would asked me to do ----------(??). 'Cause no 28:00one worked at Harvester, they wanted to get the wives to support it when they went on strike because they were always on strike. And so, I remember we talked about in the women's auxiliary. That was a very active group. [child screaming] And they started to get up a petition against the H-bomb. And they did. And I think some of the men weren't too crazy about that either just like they weren't, that, they had a dance too, and the men weren't too crazy about that. But we did--and we circulated that petition [noise] ----------(??) other organization. And that women's auxiliary. And then--that would have been--let's see, we worked there in '49--[noise] ----------(??) [child screaming] It seemed like a long time because so much happened, but I think it was only for about a year. Ended '50, maybe. [child screaming] And somewhere along in there, growing out, I think out of that thing the 29:00auxiliary petition on the H-bomb. I decided to try to reach out on-- beyond that auxiliary groups ----------(??) I was working with and try to form something called Women for Peace.
BRADEN: [child screaming] I think, I don't think that really ever gotoff the ground because my recollection is--
UNIDENTIFIED CHILD: Hey!
BRADEN: --talking to a number of people and maybe taking the petitionaround and stuff like that. Maybe some churches, and--I can't remember who all, but just people who'd get in touch with me. And we had set a meeting, and people were going to come. And about that time, the Korean War broke out--
BRADEN: --and people got scared, so I--we, we may have had a few people,and sort of a paper (??) organization, but it never got off the ground because people were scared since the Korean War started.
FOSL: So how many women were involved in, were active, really in thewomen's auxiliary?
BRADEN: Oh, I'd say ten or fifteen.
BRADEN: That were really--would come to meetings and things as I recall.Strum's (??) wife was active. 30:00
FOSL: Right. What's her first name?
FOSL: She's not--um, is she still living?
BRADEN: Um-hm. I don't know how much it is she remembers. She's livingon, um, oh, just north of Broadway on, uh, you know, senior citizens' housing ----------(??).
FOSL: Um-hm. So, they're not together?
BRADEN: No, they broke up years ago. But they were apparently happilymarried then. Had four chil-, there's four children. We were real good friends, Nellie and I were. And I, I, and I never see her now ----------(??). We were real close friends and there was only--she's not here anymore, Jane Mahoney (??), a white woman who, there was a Tom Mahoney, he was the leader, or sort of the second level leader of the union. Sterling (??) was never president, he was vice-president of the local, but he was effectively the leader.
BRADEN: Um, and Mahoney was once on the grievance committee, orsomething. Jane was an interesting person. She was just really sharp, but, but, um, this was all ----------(??) and we had been working with 31:00black women--
BRADEN: --but she really drew in, I knew her real well. She lived rightdown here. ----------(??) but they moved away. She and her husband moved to California after that. [door closing sound] I remember, a Viola Trapman (??). She was a white woman. It was interesting to see how those white women [door closing sound] developed and got to be real close to the black women in this town. Thelma Gibson (??) and she might still be around. I don't know what's happened to her. She was, she was the widow of the guy who had been the first president of that local. He died under s-, mysterious circumstances, and that was really before--man oh man--no-- I was here then because I met him. But that was before I was active in these things, and Carl and I were still at the paper. And he died. And there was a tremendous funeral. And he was really loved. And he died as a very important 32:00force in the community, I can't remember his name. And Thelma--which was heartbroken--she, she kind of stayed close to the union for a long time. And when they started, when they started forming the auxiliary, I think I talked to her, and she became chair of it, they gave a lot of leadership to her, she lived in a housing project, and, um, she was white, and he was white, too. And, uh, so there was her. There was, there was just a good group of women. And they didn't particularly get scared when the Korean War started but some of these other people that we thought we'd get involved in the Women for Peace did. So, my recollection is it never really was much more than a paper organization; we may have had a few meetings. But we used the name ----------(??) on the petitions and things. But somewhere along in there, the Progressive Party--the shell of it after the defeat in '48 had continued here, which was mostly a group of left-wingers sort of. But it was a vehicle people were using to raise issues on civil rights 33:00and teach, really. But Carl and I weren't very, weren't active in it for several years because we were wrapped up in the union.
BRADEN: And, um, and it was, it was pretty isolated by then, like somany ----------(??). And the union wasn't isolated--but we actually, as I look back on it, we got impatient because things were going from bad to worse. And the Korean War broke out, um [knocking sound] I do not remember, but I can figure out the right date, when he left the union. ----------(??) the forties--keep the information somewhere where I can open it.
FOSL: I think--I have that date, but I believe it was like in early 1950?
BRADEN: Yeah, I think so. Right before the Korean War started ----------(??). And eventually--and then Carl went back to the paper just so we would have an income, on the copy desk. But--(Fosl clears 34:00throat)--but somewhere along in there, we kind of hooked back up with the Progressive Party. And we had gotten real friendly or well, it was probably, it was a mistake as we look back on it, I think politically we'd gotten real involved with the union. And we should have stay-, anyway, we could make a case of, politically, we should have stayed working with--there, where, you know, it wasn't as isolated on the left. But, but, you know, the way we felt at that point was that we were on the verge of fascism and World War III.
BRADEN: I mean--and when the Korean War broke out, you know, thatcould've been the beginning of World War III.
BRADEN: And, uh, um, and so we just wanted to be more active againstthose things. And there were things that were frustrating because they always are when you're working in groups where people don't necessarily see the issues you think are important. Like I remember I may have mentioned this to you before. There was a big controversy when Paul 35:00Robeson was almost lynched at Peekskill.
FOSL: Oh yeah.
BRADEN: I don't know when that was. It must have been '49 because wewere with the union then. We put an article about it in, you know, a comment on it in the paper when we were editing. And some of the more conservative people in the union got real upset about that. And, and it worked out all right because Carl did what he always did and just organized his troops of the people who would support him, and--but I don't think he ever convinced those people that were opposed to it. And--but that was frustrating because, you know, you can't sit around having Paul Robeson almost lynched, and you're not supposed to say anything about it. And that, how, um, you know, the Rosenberg case was going on, and they were putting all the communists in jail, the committees. I mean, there was really just a terrible repression.
BRADEN: And we felt a need, I think, to be much more active, and openlyactive, against all those things. So what basically happened in our political life I think was that we moved to the left-- 36:00
BRADEN: --in terms of our activity. And we re-hooked up back with theProgressive Party, which had been meeting here all along. We just hadn't been going to the meetings.
FOSL: So that would have been sometime in '50 you went to them?
BRADEN: Um-hm. Oh, no, Carl went, Carl hitch-hiked to New York to goto the National Committee Meeting of the Progressive Party in 1950. I think the one maybe right after the Korean War broke out--
BRADEN: --when Henry Wallace left. Or he had left by the time they met,or something. And we hadn't, really hadn't any connection with the national people, but maybe the people here--we got reconnected with the group here, and they wanted somebody to go. So, he just hitch-hiked and went. So we began to work more with the Progressive Party and put a lot of energy into it. And, um, here, um, even in '52 when Vincent Hallinan ran for president. He didn't get hardly any votes here, but there was an active group. And that was kind of a vehicle we were all 37:00using to raise these issues.
BRADEN: We had, uh, I don't know how we paid for it. We had an office, alittle storefront office down at 5th and York, a block off of Broadway.
FOSL: And there was a bookshop, too, right?
BRADEN: Yeah. I--well, I don't know how many books we ever had. Idon't know how much we used to--I guess we had a lot of literature, though. We had that for a while. It was kind of the center of the Progressive Party leaders, and other things functioned out of that, too. It was kind of a left center.
FOSL: Um-hm. Now, did you already know Alberta Ahearn by this time?
BRADEN: She came around--well--oh yeah, there--met her through theunion. She was--
FOSL: Oh, yeah?
BRADEN: I never figured out whether she was living with him. There wasa guy named Carl Keithley (??) who was active in the FE union.
BRADEN: And he lived at her house with her and her--I think her motherwas alive then. And I don't know whether she was romantically involved with him, or he just lived there, or, you know, I don't know why she got ----------(??) in the first place. But she began coming to the women's auxiliaries. 38:00
BRADEN: And Carl Keithley was not really--certainly was not ----------(??). He wasn't really very smart. I mean, he was a nice looking guy. He became president of the local, I think.
But he was not very on the ball. But he was, you know, sort of a niceguy. But that's who she, and so, from there, she began to get out doing these other things, too, like the Progressive Party and ----------(??).
FOSL: Um-hm. And would you say--
BRADEN: I don't really remember the Louisville Peace Crusade or howmuch of an organization that was, but we weren't--there was an American Peace Crusade. And we began to hook up with more of these national things. I mean ----------(??) and we became kind of a contact for a lot of 'em--like the Civil Rights Congress were, you know, we were on their mailing list. And we used to make monthly pledges of two dollars and three dollars a month to all these things. One of 'em was the Civil Rights Congress. And then I met Patterson at a Progressive-- William Patterson at a Progressive Party meeting. 39:00
FOSL: Oh, that was where you met him. I couldn't remember if it wasthat or American Peace Crusade.
BRADEN: Well, he may have been. I--we went to a big American PeaceCrusade gathering in Chicago. And I think that was after the Korean War started, so that must have been the summer of '50. And whole--but, you know, we took several--at least one car load up from here and, and maybe some others. I don't think I had met Patterson then. I mean, he was there. It was a big meeting. I think Paul Robeson was there, people like that. But we just had a delegation from here, so we were and probably--either before or after that, we tried to form a Louisville Peace Crusade. And we probably did have an organization. It was overlapped. You know, all those people, they're the same people once you--in all the things. But, um--but we would, but, but some of these national groups kind of began to see us as contacts. I think the ----------(??) Louisville and they got Carl's pundits (??) a lot of 'em. But they were good organizers. So we'd find somebody 40:00like Darson Clayson (??) and then the guy who ran the American Peace Crusade, named Abbott Simon, he's still around, I think. I always thought he was a tremendous organizer 'cause he would-- I didn't meet him until years later, I don't think. But he found out we were interested. And we would--I've often, I used to try to do this for people, too, when I was with SCEF. I don't have the time anymore. We would get long letters from him. You know, ----------(??) haven't really had time to write. But we'd do something, and we'd have a campaign. And they began to promote the Stockholm Peace Petition. And then it was, um, and, of course, there, there was the Peace Information Center. And Abbott Simon worked with that, too. And I don't know the s-, I can't remember the sequence. But that's where--uh, Dr. DuBois was the head of it, and that's why he got arrested. And there was a real campaign here--history--it was a good campaign. There was a woman named Lillian Elder, who was a good friend of ours. She was old--a little bit older. She died just very recently. But, uh, she was black. She looked white, but she was black. And she was an art 41:00and peace activist. And she just worked so hard. And she took on that DuBois thing. And she took it to all the churches. She got all these petitions signed, and postcards, and all that kind of stuff.
FOSL: Was she involved with the ----------(??)?
BRADEN: No, unh-uh. I don't know how she was--but she never was. Butshe was just, she had made up her mind and when their son was born, he'd never go to war. And she was just really committed to that. And her husband was not a bit sympathetic. And he didn't like us 'cause he thought we were--I didn't think he disliked us personally. But he got pretty bitter because he thought we were getting her in trouble and that her association with us was getting--because all of these things were considered subversive and treasonous and all that kind of stuff. That's what everybody thought. But she'd tell--but she got a lot of support for that DuBois petition because people really respected Dr. Du Bois. But Abbott Simon--I think Abbott Simon worked with the Peace Information Center, and I know he worked with the American Peace Crusade. And some way we, you know, got on his list. And every time 42:00we'd send him a petition or we'd write him about something that was happening, he would write back and, you know, encourage it. And so we would get a network going. We had ----------(??). But we began to feel a little repressed bec-, I think, because all these--so many of these were calling on us to be their Louisville contact and so forth. But I think that big Peace Crusade thing in Chicago must have been in June of '50. And then--but we kept in touch with the national Progressive Party. And I don't remember whether I ever went to more than one of the national meetings. I remember we drove up, some of us from here, to the one in Chicago where Patterson was, and that's where I got interested in the Willie McGee case. So that would have been, I think in the spring of '51.
FOSL: Now, how did, uh, did he even write you and ask you to be partof his delegation, or did you volunteer? I might have that, but I've forgotten, and I don't--
BRADEN: I've forgotten too. I think I--well, Winifred Feise, whose43:00still around, F-e-i-s-e was living in New Orleans. She was white woman. And she gave a report at that meeting in Chicago on the delegation she had been on to Mississippi on the McGee case. And, um, she, um, and I just got real interested in it. And I think I--well, Paul Robeson was at that meeting. I remember him talking about it, too. But I think maybe I said to Patterson before I left that I would like to go on the delegation if they had ----------(??) office -------- --(??) that he was going to be executed. So I guess he took my name and probably wrote to the delegation ----------(??). But Winifred was very active. They left--and she was run out of New Orleans, eventually. And she was--she had been active for some, she wasn't from New Orleans. But they had lived there for some years. And she was active in the progressive community down there and, um, eventually left. I 44:00think they were subpoenaed by one of the committees and left. But I've run into her several times in recent years. And I remember her. In fact, she became very closely associated with the Farm and Wilderness camps in Vermont where Jim, her son went. They gave him a scholarship the year Carl was in jail on the HUAC case, and then he went back the next year. And then--and Winifred was a counselor there--she, she and her husband and they later separated and moved to Pennsylvania when they got basically run out of New Orleans. I can't remember whether it was a committee or they were being indicted under the anti-communist law down there, same one Jim Dombrowski later, I guess. They just left, I think. And they had children. And somewhere they got tied up with these camps. So I ran into her about--and by that time, it was the sixties. And she would have Carl and me come and talk to some of the high school kids at that camp 'cause they were younger, in high school. And I remember that was either before or soon after, or maybe 45:00----------(??) New Orleans. First year Jim was there, Carl was in prison. Or it may have been the next summer we went there and talked with the kids. But the thing that sticks in my mind about it was--we were talking about the House Un-American Committee, and ----------(??) what the whole dynamics of it were. And, and I remember her talking to me afterwards. And see--and her daughter was there. I think she was so glad that her daughter had been able to hear that because, um, because she had never really heard that this was something to be proud of, to be subpoenaed by HUAC.
BRADEN: You know, and that you--that happened because you were doing allthese good things. And I said, "Well, Winifred, couldn't you have told her that?" And she said, "Well, I really wasn't sure myself --------- -(??)." She said, "You just hear people so--for s-, for so long saying 46:00that you're evil and you're s-, and that you're subversive and that you joined the PTA for ulterior motives, and you begin to wonder." And it struck me hard because it was, it was a good example of how that whole sort of thing undermined a lot of people's confidence in themselves. And, um, so, you know, she was just typical of a lot of people. But, you know, didn't happen that often to us, that much--maybe some, but not much because we stayed so active. But, um, they left. And they got active in some things in Pennsylvania. And then I saw her last year. Um-hm. That was at--when I was at the Berkshire Farm. Does she live around there now, or--it's funny, I can't remember ----------(??) that summer. Anyway, she had been active on the DuBois case. And she, 47:00well, she talked about it there. And I saw that one of the things that roused my interest which--so I, I guess Patterson just took the lead or something and wrote letters and had ----------(??).
FOSL: And that-- you've mentioned a lot that letter that you got fromhim during that time. Is that in your papers?
BRADEN: Yeah, I'm sure it is.
FOSL: It is.
BRADEN: I'm sure it's somewhere in there ----------(??).
FOSL: Okay. Um, yeah, I remember that Alberta Ahearn went on thatdelegation.
BRADEN: Um-hm. We went down on a train.
FOSL: I mean, would say that she and you were close friends, or, I mean--
BRADEN: Well, not really. She wasn't the kind of person that youparticularly felt close to. She was sort of nice enough. And--but she was a--seemed to me, a very reserved person. And no, I-- I--you know, I never felt close to her like I did a lot of other people I worked with. 48:00
FOSL: So it wasn't--when this whole thing happened during the case,I mean, it was a, I mean, it was a treasonous thing that she did and everything, but it wasn't like a, a personal, you know, like if it was your best friend that did something like this to you, it would be really different, you know.
BRADEN: I didn't feel particularly personally close to her. I mean, Ididn't feel hostile toward her. But she was, you know, she didn't--
FOSL: So I wondered that at one point 'cause you'd never mentioned it tome or in any of the other interviews, and I didn't see anything written about it. But I remember Carl saying it when he was talking to someone that she had just been around the house so much, you know, that I just got the idea that maybe you all had been friends.
BRADEN: Well, she had been here a lot for different things. And, andshe was active in all these things. And, you know, she would go out petitioning with us and stuff like that. But, but I never really talked to her, um, you know, about anything personal or ----------(??) like, like, I don't know till this day whether she was living with Carl 49:00Keithley or was just ----------(??).
FOSL: And what happened to her after this testimony?
BRADEN: I don't know. I don't know where she went.
FOSL: That's the same thing Andrew said. Nobody ever heard from her,you know.
BRADEN: Yeah, she might still be in town. I'd guess, unless she's died,but she was, she was probably about my age, I think. ----------(??)--
FOSL: And then there was the whole incident with her and Fletcher--what's his name? Was that who it was that she, she had been arrested for like--
BRADEN: Chester Higgins--
FOSL: Oh, 'cause--
BRADEN: --who's still around, very much around. You know, he's--he,he writes. I'd read the stuff he'd write--he was a journalist. ---- ------(??) the Defender, he wrote for the Defender and then moved away from there. And his son, Chester Higgins Jr., was a very talented photographer, who married the daughter of a good friend of mine, according to the ----------(??). But I keep-- I haven't seen Chester Higgins probably since that ----------(??) byline. He writes for one for the Black News Services or something. And you see his column in 50:00----------(??). He was about my age ----------(??). But, yeah, there was some incident where they were--I can't remember that either, what, what it was. It was something about--
FOSL: Oh, they were, like, having sex in the back of the car and werearrested.
BRADEN: Um-hm. [noise] but I can't remember [noise] with her mother.She lived with her mother, and she had a daughter who looked a lot like her--an attractive looking ----------(??). Oh, you serious? Well, here's an Alberta Ahearn, sure is.
FOSL: It is.
BRADEN: That's the same address, so she must still be there.
FOSL: After all that time.
BRADEN: 2311 ----------(??). This is where she lived. And her motherlived there. Now, I'm sure she has died. And that's, see--this is a current phone book. But I had--never hear anything about it. I haven't heard anything from her. And I have no idea--1989, it's the current phone book. 51:00
FOSL: And never saw her again?
BRADEN: Never saw her ----------(??). I don't think so. Um--
FOSL: I think I would have looked this woman up. [vehicle honks]
BRADEN: I think I talked to her on the phone once briefly--I called heror something. And Mary Agnes Barnett, I remember, called her up and- -to call her out and stuff. And she, she couldn't talk. She couldn't talk. Or she said she wanted to talk but she couldn't talk until after all these trials were over. Well, ----------(??) there were any other trials. And I don't know that she ever testified anywhere else or not. She might have testified before the Easton Committee (??) in Memphis, which would have been a few years after that. Oh, about the time of the Little Rock school crisis. Easton ----------(??) in Memphis. Memphis--and she may have testified there--at least, they referred to her testimony there I think, that's probably all in the transcripts at 52:00least ----------(??). I don't think she ever did anything else. You know, and so I never heard anybody say anything about her.
BRADEN: She had other interests, uh, besides the stuff she did withus. She was--did you ever hear of the Turner's, sort of a gymnastic something. I don't know exactly what it is. They had a center here. I think it's gymnastics. And, I remember she used to go to that. So maybe she just got into things like that.
FOSL: But still, to do what she did, really--I mean, I can't evenimagine living in the same town and doing any of the same things. But, um--well, I have a few--I have a lot more I could ask you, but I'm very aware of--
[End of interview.]