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HERDMAN: The following is an unrehearsed interview with former State House Representative Carl Hines who was in office from 1976 to 1986. The interview was conducted by Catherine Herdman for the University of Kentucky Legislative Oral History Project on June 28, 2006, at the office of Mr. Hines, in Louisville, Kentucky. Okay, now that, that's out of the way. Let's start with your early life. Where were you born and tell me about your parents.

HINES: Well, I was born right here in Louisville. And raised here. My mother, this is my mother's home; my father's from Champaign, Illinois. And my mother and father met at the University of Champaign, where they were both attending college.

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HERDMAN: What year was that?

HINES: Oh, Lord.

HERDMAN: Approximation will do.

HINES: It was in the, probably, middle twenties. Nineteen twenties, because my sister was born in 1930, and I was born in '31. So probably is in maybe the late twenties. They were up in Illinois. And so, we resided in Louisville all my life. And I attended elementary, junior high, and high school here.

HERDMAN: Where did you go to?

HINES: Graduated from Central High School.

HERDMAN: Where did you go to elementary and junior high?

HINES: Elementary school was, at that time, it was Virginia Avenue Elementary School, and now it's Carter, Carter Traditional. And then I 2:00went to Madison Junior High School and Central High School. Graduated from Central High School in January of 1949. We still had midyear classes then. So I graduated in the middle of the year. And then I went to Illinois, to school in September '49. And, of course, in 1950 the Korean conflict broke out. So, January 1, 1951, not--January the second, actually, I went in the Air Force and I was in the Air Force for three years.

HERDMAN: You voluntarily enlisted?

HINES: Yeah. And there was a great deal of voluntary enlistment during that time--okay. Representative Owens. His office is downstairs. And, in fact, he has my district that I used to.

HERDMAN: Oh, yeah. (laughs)

HINES: He's Forty-Third District legislator now. But anyway, so I 3:00went in the Air Force. And as I said, a lot of guys were enlisting in various branches of service, except the Army, to keep from going to Korea, to keep from going to the frontlines in Korea. But anyway, needless to say, in October of 1951, I was in Korea. But I wasn't on the frontlines, but I was in the Air Force, and I was a gunner. And we flew--the tour of duty, my tour in Korea was fifty-five combat missions. So once you went over there and flew fifty-five missions, then you rotated back. We didn't have the nonsense they got in Iran, Iraq, sending people over there two or three times. But anyway, I came back from Korea. And I went back to--no, well, I got a job, got 4:00started going to the University of Louisville for a while. And then I decided to go back to Illinois, to which I did, and, of course, at that time, I was a grown man in my twenties, early twenties, and college was a little different. So, meantime, my grandmother was still living in Champaign. So when I first went up there to college, I stayed with her; when I went back, I also stayed with her. And then didn't work out to good, so I came back and went on and finally I graduated from University of Louisville.

HERDMAN: What year was that?

HINES: I graduated in '74. And then I went to law school, and I went to law school for two years. And then in 1976, in the meantime, I had been appointed to the Louisville Board of Education; subsequently I 5:00also served on the combined board of education, because it was during my tenure that the desegregation and immigration of the merger of the Louisville and Jefferson County systems took place.

HERDMAN: Now how did you come to get that appointment? Were you involved politics already?

HINES: Well, not really, it's sort of a long story. But I became involved in my job I guess really, because I worked for the government for a while. At the, what was then called the Army map (??) service, and I left the Army map (??) service, and went to work for a Mammoth Life and Accident Insurance Company, which is a black, was a black, locally founded insurance company. And I subsequently became the manager of the home office district. Well, as the manager of the home office district, it got me involved into lot of different organizations.

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HERDMAN: Business type organizations?

HINES: Yeah, right, Jaycees, and what have you, you know. So that when the vacancy occurred on the board of education, I was asked if I would accept it, which I did. I had previously served on another committee, which was the merger committee which happened some time ago, when there was a--what did they call that committee? I can't think of the exact name now. But anyhow, it was setup to try to see if about avoiding what eventually happened, which was all the conflict and stuff that eventually took place.

HERDMAN: To integrate the schools?

HINES: To merge the two systems.

HERDMAN: Oh, the city and the county.

HINES: The city and the county, right. A merger came back from the national level with the Supreme Court decision of '54.

HERDMAN: Right.

HINES: And the Roe v somebody--.

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HERDMAN:--yeah--

HINES: --decision. And so that actually was supposed to integrate schools. And to a smaller extent, it did, but it didn't really. Because that's when Roe came about, that's when white flight started.

HERDMAN: So you're saying that basically the city schools and the county schools were separated by resident's segregation anyway.

HINES: No separated by area.

HERDMAN: Okay.

HINES: At that time, prior to the Roe decision, the county system was a very small system. And in fact, at during that time, prior to that time, I guess during that time, they had teachers in the county that were teaching on two-year certificates, you know, that didn't have degrees.

HERDMAN: I gotcha.

HINES: But then the merger, the Roe came down, and white flight started, and the county couldn't take care--it grew so fast, of people leaving 8:00the city, of whites leaving the city, moving into the county to try to avoid integration.

HERDMAN: Right

HINES: The county went into double sessions. They were having day and evening sessions.

HERDMAN: And at the same time did the tax fund base--

HINES:--Tax base for the city was dwindling. And so that created a problem, which the city board faced up to. So, with the dwindling tax base and the problems, financial problems that we were facing, we just, school board just decided, Well, the only way to do this, fairest to the kids and to the community, we'll just vote ourselves out of business. And state law said that if we went out of business, the county had to take us. You know, had to take us in. In the meantime, the case was going through the courts. There were suits, and so forth, to integrate the two systems. So we went to Frankfort, and they agreed 9:00to the integration. In the meantime, Judge Gordon ruled that the two systems had to be merged.

HERDMAN: And did that involve busing yet.

HINES: Yeah, yeah. And all hell broke loose.

HERDMAN: The busing situation?

HINES: Yeah, yeah, that's all about busing and so forth. And like I said, all hell broke loose. And for, I guess, two years or so, it was chaotic because of resistance and all kinds of attitudes.

HERDMAN: That would have been the early seventies.

HINES: That would have been the middle seventies.

HERDMAN: Yes, okay, right before you.

HINES: Mid-seventies, yeah, right. Nineteen seventy-six is when it happened. And '75. Nineteen seventy-four, '75? Nineteen seventy-five, I believe and that was the end of my term, and I was glad because there were some very unpleasant things that occurred during that period, that 10:00took place.

HERDMAN: The end of your term on the board of education?

HINES: Right. So, at that time the district I was represent, that I eventually represented was the primarily the West End of Louisville, and was represented then by--what was his, I can't think of his name, I know I told you, you know, Norbert Blume. He was the representative for the--

HERDMAN:--was he a Democrat or a Republican?

HINES: Yeah, he was a Democrat, white Democrat, and speaker of the House. But his stand on the merger issue cost him the speakership. So when he came up for leadership appointments, however it was done back then, he no longer was the speaker. In the meantime, the merger and 11:00everything took place, and then, of course, I was ask to run because the district had become predominately black.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Who asked you to run? The Democratic Party, or?

HINES: Some individuals in the Democratic Party.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HINES: For one was the regional chairman for that area, and some precinct captains and what have you. The door (??) was pretty well established. But anyway, I ran and I won.

HERDMAN: In the primary, you mean?

HINES: Yeah, well that, that really was it--

HERDMAN:--yeah--(laughs)

HINES:--in that district, at that time.

HERDMAN: Yeah. How'd you campaign at that time?

HINES: Well, I did the, I was a novice, to tell you the truth. I really didn't know what I was doing and maybe that's the reason I won. But I had a very energetic campaign committee from neighborhood folks. In fact, I even won Norb's home precinct--

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HERDMAN: --wow (laughs)--

HINES:--from where he lived. But it was actually due to the work of a lot of people. Had a very, very good campaign chairman and campaign treasurer and the organization. And we pretty well covered the waterfront to the extent that we knew how, but it turned out that it worked out pretty good.

HERDMAN: Did you go door to door? Did you do mailings?

HINES: Yeah, we did, my wife and I, we did some door to doors, we did mail outs, we did some radio stuff, and so forth.

HERDMAN: So you were married by then.

HINES: Oh yeah, I'd been married.

HERDMAN: Where'd you meet your wife?

HINES: I met my wife at a party, at my house while I was home on Christmas break from University of Illinois, the second time I went up there.

HERDMAN: Um-hm. After Korea?

HINES: Yeah, after Korea. And a friend of mine, who also graduated from 13:00Illinois, went to Illinois. [telephone rings]

[Pause in recording.]

HERDMAN: We're good, okay. Let me go back and get a couple things before we catch back up. Tell me a little bit about Louisville when you were growing up here. Just maybe church, or social activities, that sort of thing?

HINES: Well, Louisville was strictly segregated, you know. I mean, it wasn't segregated to the extent that you had in other southern cities. To the extent, I mean, I never remember having the ride in the back of a streetcar, or trolley, or whatever, we had transportation, public transportation at the time. That never occurred, to my knowledge during my youth. But the parks were segregated and--

HERDMAN: --residential areas?

HINES: Residential areas were very stringently segregated. And the 14:00entertainment venues were segregated. The eating restaurants, and theaters, and et cetera, were all segregated, you know.

HERDMAN: When did that pass, the public facilities?

HINES: I think it was '64, public accommodations under Breathitt, I believe, Governor Breathitt. Excuse me; my lunch is still digesting. (laughs) I think it was under Governor Breathitt, signed the public accommodations bill, after a march on Frankfort. And, of course, there was resistance to that. There was some of the restaurants who fought it down to tooth and nail, you know. But eventually, you know, it came about. But I lived in the West End all my life. And I can very vividly remember riding bicycles at--it was an adventure for us to ride 15:00through Shawnee Park, which was all the white park. We had one park in the city, which was Chickasaw Park, and that was our park, you know. We had one swimming pool, which was ----------(??) swimming pool on the, not too far from here, a few blocks from here, really. And that was our swimming pool and so I can very vividly remember we would be down on the parkway, south ----------(??), which I now live on, and we would ride through Shawnee Park. That was--and we generally get chased, but they couldn't catch us. We're on bicycles. And we ride out of Shawnee Park right there at the end of Broadway four blocks over to the entrance to Chickasaw Park. And when we got to the entrance to Chickasaw Park, we would just stop. And, of course, those guys turned around--

HERDMAN:--right. (both laugh)

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HINES: And went back to Shawnee Park. But that's the way it was during that time. I mean I grew up in my childhood in a segregated city. But like I said, it wasn't--I guess, you know, you had certain, most of the boutiques and women's stores on Fourth Street, which was then the primary shopping area--this was all before, you know, suburbia came about, and all the malls, and so forth--and black women could not try on clothes downtown at the major stores. And it's kind of strange. I guess one of the reasons is that during that time, I guess, black women used more oil, and grease, and stuff in their hair, and I guess, to try on clothes, they were concerned about this or whatever. But we had 17:00some men's stores. We didn't have that problem.

HERDMAN: Really?

HINES: No.

HERDMAN: That's interesting.

HINES: Maybe a couple of them, maybe a couple of them that were maybe the higher priced, higher class types, at that time, but I know I went a, I used to buy, my mother used to take me to Levi's (??), and Lovenhart's (??), they were across the street from each other. And never had any problems trying on anything.

HERDMAN: Did you have siblings, sisters and brothers?

HINES: I had one sister. She died about fourteen years ago and she was a year older than I am, than I was. She was thirteen months older than me. And we were very close. Of course, there was just the two of us. And we were close in age, so it was one those things where she couldn't go anywhere unless I went. And so, we were very close.

HERDMAN: Did you, was your neighborhood--did people live close together since you were in the city? Did you have a lot of neighborhood kids, or 18:00were you separated?

HINES: Oh yeah, yeah, we had, all the neighborhoods we lived in, you know, because we lived in totally black neighborhoods. And it was right in the city, you know. We moved to an area one time where the first three houses on the block, ending at our house, was black. And the rest of the block and all across the street, and round the corner, and everything was all white. But, you know, you didn't have--one of my best friends was a white kid who lived across the street. And we became the best of friends. And, in fact, we broke down some barriers because they had a theater here. Up on Mar--up on Jefferson, Savoy Theater?

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: And Savoy Theater had a roped off section. That had a lot of 19:00cowboy pictures and stuff from then, and comics, and stuff like that. And so, this guy that was a friend of mine was named Donny, and he and I decided to go the theater together. Well, they had a rope down the middle of the balcony at this theater, and we both went in and went up in the balcony, and he sat in on one side of the rope, and I sat on the other side of the rope, and we were sitting side by side in the theater to show you how stupid the whole thing was.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

HINES: And we sat up there and had a ball, you know. Enjoyed the movie together. But it was a segregated atmosphere and situation, you know. I mean, University of Louisville was still segregated. We had what you call Municipal College, Louisville Municipal College, which was a block, big, out around Eighth and Kentucky. That was, I guess you call it a satellite of U of L. And, of course, when the education thing came 20:00down, I think U of L decide to desegregate. So some blacks started going to University of Louisville. Well, I told you I graduated University of Louisville eventually.

HERDMAN: So what about the religious situation, did your parents attend church? Did you attend?

HINES: Oh yeah, yeah. I attend the same church that I still belong to.

HERDMAN: Which was what?

HINES: Well, at that time it was Congregational. It's now Congregational and UCC, United Church Of Christ merged several years ago. So now, it's the Plymouth Congregation of the United Church of Christ.

HERDMAN: Was the church segregated when you were a child?

HINES: Well, I'm sure you heard the saying that the most segregated hour in America is eleven o'clock Sunday morning. And it still is, for all practical purpose. So yes, the church was very segregated.

HERDMAN: And it pretty much still is, at this point?

HINES: Well, I mean it--

HERDMAN:--of course, not officially--

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HINES: --not officially--

HERDMAN:--right.

HINES: But course, UCC is probably the, I guess the most liberal denomination in the country. You know, because we never have restraints that the majority of Baptist churches and lot of other churches have. We have, in fact, my church has a lady pastor. It still theoretically, congregational, because reason for that, for that a nomenclature is the fact that the congregation actually runs the church.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: Whereas opposed to other denominations where the minister, he may not do it theoretically but I mean actually runs the church, you know. So at our church all our decisions are made by various entities within the church body, you know. But anyway, so that denomination, I guess, 22:00was one of the first to go against legal segregation. You know, because it was established in the east. And it worked its way south and still held onto their beliefs, you know. And still do, because some of the churches recently--in fact one here in Louisville, I can't remember the name of it, was a UCC church. At a major UCC conference, they refused to pass a ban against gay marriage, and a ban against gays, and what have you. And one of the churches here withdrew from the conference, 23:00you know. But basically, overall, it's a very liberal denomination.

HERDMAN: Did your involvement with the denomination impact your public life at all? After you were--

HINES:--well, I think so, I mean, like I said, I'm still very active; in fact, I'm the treasurer of our church. I've been at the church since I was about five-years-old.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: I've been there through every minister that we've had, including the founding minister. Founding minister of our church baptized my sister and I. So, I'm sure, that being--I was in the Boy Scouts at the church. And there was a center next door that the church owned where we used to play as kids, and went to Bible school, and went there for summer activities, and what have you. So I'm sure the church has had definite influence in my upbringing, and so forth, you know.

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HERDMAN: Well, the phone interrupted your story about how you met your wife. So, you can go back to.

HINES: Oh yeah. I don't know whether, you probably never heard, we had a very prominent black owner, and publisher, and editor, and you name it, of the local black newspaper, Louisville Defender. That family owned the Louisville Defender. In fact, the owner of the Louisville Defender, his name was Frank Stanley. He and my mother were classmates in high school.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: That's just an aside to the story, but anyway. Frank Stanley Jr, who at one time was a very prominent young man in Louisville political and social arena, attended University of Illinois. He graduated from high school with my wife. And so, Frank and I, since 25:00I was from Louisville and our families knew each other, and what have you, although he was several years younger than I, were at Illinois together. He was there. You know, he went there on a regular basis. I had come back from the service. So we came home on Christmas break, and, of course we were both single. So I had a party on Christmas Eve. And naturally, I invited Frank because we rode back and forth to school together, you know. I had a car, being a veteran, and what have you. And, in fact, during Thanksgiving vacation we had driven to DC together, Washington, and he had a girlfriend up there, and, of course, his girlfriend introduced me to a girl, you know, what have you. But anyway, and I had the party and naturally I invited Frank, and he bought the girl who ended up being my wife. (Herdman laughs) That was in nineteen--

HERDMAN: --as his date or just a--

HINES:--as his date.

HERDMAN: Yeah?

HINES: They were dating, you know. And anyway, the rest is history. We 26:00been married forty-six years.

HERDMAN: And what's her name?

HINES: Her name is Theresa.

HERDMAN: Do you have children?

HINES: Four children; three boys and a girl.

HERDMAN: And how old are they?

HINES: Oh, most of them are older than you, probably. (Herdman laughs) My son, oldest son will be forty-six next month, the next boy will be forty-five in December, my daughter will be forty-four next March, and my youngest son is thirty-seven.

HERDMAN: Are they around the area? Did they stay?

HINES: Yeah, they're all here. Yeah, they all here.

HERDMAN: Any of them involved in politics?

HINES: No, no. No, they all married, and have families, and doing their own thing, and none of them never got involved. The three boys all went to Eastern, two of them graduated, my youngest, my oldest boy, he was restless and he joined the Navy when he was, after a year 27:00in college. And then the next boy he graduated from Eastern. Then, my youngest son went to Eastern for a while, but then came home. He graduated from University of Louisville. My daughter went to and through UK. She graduated from UK and got a master's from U of L.

HERDMAN: Okay. So let's, I guess we were about the point that you decided to run. You said a couple people in the Democratic Party had asked you--

HINES:--yeah, legislative district chairman and some more folks, you know, approached me and said that the district needed to have a black representative, since it's majority black, and blah, blah, blah, and so forth. And they said at that time, my image, and I had high visibility, and what have you, from being on the school board, during the time with the merger, and all of that. So I decided to run. And so I ran and 28:00won. And won by around fifty votes. It was a very close race.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: To show you how naive we were, we had planned a victory party win or lose. And we did not even realize that, except there were a couple people that did it, and I was surprised when they told me, that you can get the vote of the back of the machine, you know, the voting machine.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: You know, it registered how many Democrats, how many votes for so and so, and so and so. And they came and said you won in this district, and I said, "How you know," you know? (Herdman laughs) That's how, really, you know, I never been involved in partisan politics, you know--

HERDMAN:--What was the--

HINES:--school board is non-partisan.

HERDMAN: Where was the poll, like where would they go?

HINES: They would go to the polls just like they are right now, various places--

HERDMAN:--the city--

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HINES:--throughout the district, you know. Might be in a firehouse, might be in a school, you know, just various places. Community halls and so forth. And they would be people who had worked at this particular poll. We had somebody--at that time, you could still--what do you call it? There was no restriction--

HERDMAN:--on how far away you had to be. Right.

HINES: Right, right, you didn't have any, you could go right into the poll, right up to the door, you know. And so we had people at every poll. We knew where all our poll, we did have. I had one guy that was a precinct captain but he was also a judge. And he was very, very prominent, and probably if it hadn't been for some stupidity, could've ended up being Louisville's first black mayor, because at the time he was what they used to call police judge. And was very prominent in the neighborhood, and his family was very prominent. But he messed with the money, you know. Went to a lawyer who fiduciary relationship, but 30:00anyway. He helped with our organizing because he knew how the system worked. So, he, you know, we managed to put our strongest people like on the polls that, where we figured. None of the precinct captains were with me, they were all for my opponent.

HERDMAN: I gotcha.

HINES: Because he was established, they owed him favors, and what have you. So, I had to have people, strong people, and they were strong people on every poll. And we manned the polls all day from six to six in shifts. And I tell you, we had a good organization for a novice, you know.

HERDMAN: Do you feel like the elections were fair, and was there anything going on in politics?

HINES: Oh yeah, I think it was fair. We, you didn't have the kind of polarizing bitterness and stuff that you have now. You know, we, 31:00talking about nineteen- and, you know, what '76. You know, we're talking about thirty years ago.

HERDMAN: Right.

HINES: And to show you how it went, Norb Blume and I are still friends. He doesn't live here anymore. But when the first person to call me and tell me that I had won was Norbert. He called me at where we were having the party. It was a black clubhouse down in the West End. And a friend of mine owned a liquor store, so he had supplied us with all, and we gotten food, and, you know, we were going to have a party regardless, you know. (both laugh) And Norbert called me and said, "Carl, I just want to let you know you won by about fifty," I said fifty-two, fifty-three votes. I said, "Well, thanks, Norb. You know, I appreciate you calling," and I said, "How do you know?" And the guy said he just finally got the results off the machine. We found, some 32:00of the news media had come in, and said they that they were worried over at his headquarters, because of the, there were certain precincts that were still out, and they figured those precincts would go heavily for me, and blah, blah, blah, you know. And like I said couple of guys, a people that I had working, either somebody told them or they found out about taking--

HERDMAN: --the numbers--

HINES:--the numbers off the machines, you know. But anyway, he called, and told me, congratulated me, and then the media, who always trying to create controversy, said since it was so close, asked him if he was going to ask for a recount. And he said, "I didn't get into this as a bleeding heart and I'm not going out as a bleeding heart. And Carl won fair and square," because we never got into personalities. Race never entered it. You know, not from us. Now there were people who, like I 33:00say, felt like we needed to have black representation in the district, you know. But, as far as he and I, I don't think I ever called his name. You know, I was just talking to people about voting for me, you know, as based on my record on school board, and what have you, you know, and I'd been, like I said at that time, I'd been in all different kind of organizations, you know, lead public meetings, been on TV, been in newspaper, and what have you. So I had high visibility.

HERDMAN: Other than the merging of the two school systems, what were the other major issues for your constituents at that moment in 76? What were they talking to you about in that first campaign?

HINES: I think the main issue in my particular race was black representation for the district. For the Forty-Third legislative district. I think that was the main criteria that people were thinking 34:00about.

HERDMAN: So you think race voted as a block, essentially.

HINES: Oh, I know they did, thank God.

HERDMAN: Yeah. (laughs)

HINES: You know, that it continued for three additional elections, you know, but the district had become, I guess, a good 85 percent, maybe 80 percent because at that time--[telephone rings]--part of the district in Portland was predominately white. That basically was, I mean there was no--the merger and everything, you know, was dying down, you know. And so, this was almost a year later, you know, and so, like I said, the primary was the main thing back then and continued to be the main thing.

HERDMAN: Were your opponents for the other subsequent elections white? Did you ever face another African American?

35:00

HINES: Excuse me. (pause) I think the first African American that I faced, because prior to that I don't think I faced anybody. I don't think I--

HERDMAN:--you ran unopposed even in the primary?

HINES: I ran unopposed. I ran unopposed. I don't, you know, there might have been somebody that ran, but it was so insignificant that I can't remember it.

HERDMAN: Right, they were just trying to get experience. Right, yeah.

HINES: Finally, I ran against a guy named Porter Hatcher, who I knew very well. In fact, Porter used to work for me. I hired him at Mammoth and promoted him to a supervisor. But he had been on the Board of Alderman for several terms. From what I understand, several other folks said, thought that I was gaining a little too much popularity, 36:00notoriety, I guess.

HERDMAN: Been there too long?

HINES: Yeah, talked him into running against me, even though we were friends. He graduated from high school with my wife also. And at one time told me that he would never run against me. But nevertheless, he did, and I lost that race by a couple hundred votes, I think.

HERDMAN: And what year was that?

HINES: Nineteen eighty-six.

HERDMAN: Nineteen eighty-six, after they changed the dates for elections.

HINES: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, but I don't think that had anything to do with it. I think what happened was, we were in session and I had been told that, you know, in January, of course, at that time, you had until a certain time in January to file. And at that time, we were in 37:00session in Frankfort and no one had come forward. And then one Sunday when we home for the weekend, one Sunday, Porter called me at home, and said that he had decided to run, and because some people thought, I ought to have some competition. Of course, at this time I had made no type of fund raising or anything. You know, I hadn't done a thing about because I didn't have no opposition, and it was only about a week or so until the end of the deadline for filing, you know. So, in the meantime, so I to try to get a campaign together. And I guess he had already gotten his campaign, but anyway, he won. And so that was the 38:00end of my political career.

HERDMAN: So you wanted to continue, but you just lost the race?

HINES: I would have, but like I say, you know, things weren't as unpleasant then, as they eventually, as they are now.

HERDMAN: You mean between candidates?

HINES: Between candidates, between parties.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: You know. It's just nasty out there now. You know, you got folks up there, especially in the leadership on one particular side that just, it's just so partisan, you know. And I think it comes all the way from Washington. You know, I really think the real partisanship began with the Reagan years.

HERDMAN: So you don't feel like the National Democratic Party had as much influence on you as this Democrat in the state level, as it does now, you think that's increased. The link between the national party--

HINES:--oh, no doubt, no doubt, yeah.

39:00

HERDMAN: Did you feel any pressure from the National Democratic Party when you were in? It was disconnected?

HINES: No, not, not really. Just the fact that we were cohorts involved through the same party, and what have you, but other than that, you know, you didn't have the influence like, you know, everybody talks about McConnell really runs the state Republican Party. Well, back then, you know, a senator, you know, United States Senator didn't have that much influence or pressure, as far as the local races were concerned.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

HINES: You know, I can remember when Morton and Cooper were Republicans. And they were two senators from Kentucky, and ----------(??). And who else? Well, ----------(??) was the state representative from this area, 40:00from Jefferson County; he was a Republican, you know, but there was no animosity; everybody got along. In fact, John Sherman Cooper was one of the most respected senators to serve in the United States Senate, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: And Morton, Morton was a decent fellow, but now it's just, I don't know.

HERDMAN: Let's talk about Frankfort then. Well let's start with your first impressions when you first went. Like where did you st--(Hines laughs)--where did you stay, what did you think it would be like?

HINES: Well, I never stayed in Frankfort.

HERDMAN: You just commuted?

HINES: I commuted. Now I stayed on occasion, but I stayed in a hotel, you know. But I never stayed up there for any continuous time. I mean like if I had a late committee meeting and an early committee meeting the next morning, you know, I might check in a Holiday Inn. Of course, the new Holiday Inn wasn't built when I first went up there, and so we 41:00stayed at the Holiday Inn, Days Inn--

HERDMAN:--was the old Holiday Inn a gathering spot for--

HINES:--oh yeah--

HERDMAN:--legislators?

HINES: Yes, Lord.

HERDMAN: Yeah, it seems to be, the stories coming out of there. (laughs)

HINES: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because, you know, most of those guys live out in the state. You know, they come in on Monday and leave on Friday, you know. And so, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday evenings and nights, those watering holes is where they hang out, you know. I guess a lot of decisions are made. It would be interesting to see because back then you'd have guys down there Republicans and Democrats, you know. Staying in the same hotel and they'd get together in the evening, and what have you. But I doubt seriously if that happens now.

HERDMAN: That's an interesting point, wonder if it does.

HINES: Yeah.

HERDMAN: So what issues--

HINES:--But the first impression that I got from Frankfort was very interesting. I had just arrived and I was with a couple of Democratic 42:00colleagues. You know, we park in the parking garage up there, at least used to, and went in through that entrance where at that time, you know, we didn't have any offices. We just had a lounge. And from what I understand, they had just gotten the lounge a couple years before that. So all we had was the lounge, the legislative lounge, where everybody, all the legislators were in there together. I guess that brought about more comradery because the Republicans, Democrats, we all went to the lounge, the legislative lounge. But anyway, I was coming in the hall, and I can't think of this guy's name, but he was one of those guys that used to have musical chairs in Frankfort for certain offices, like the treasurer and the secretary of state, and what have you. And there were certain guys that were switched every 43:00election. And it was one of these guys and I can't remember his name, I can't tell you; it's been thirty years. But Aubrey Williams and I were elected the same time from adjoining districts. And we went up there, we were two relatively young black men, and when I walked in, they introduced me to this person--what was his name? He was secretary of something, I don't know if it was secretary of state, or secretary of treasurer, or whatever, and he introduced me, and said, "This is Representative Hines," and he said "Oh, you're the other one."

HERDMAN: Oh.

HINES: (laughs) I said--

HERDMAN:--(laughs) Welcome to Frankfort.

HINES: Yeah, I said, "Well, I don't know whether I'm the other one or not, but I'm Representative Hines, and I don't know who you're referring to when you say 'the other one.'" And I just turned and walked away. And I heard him say, "Oh this guy, he's kind of feisty, isn't he?" (both laugh) But that was my introduction to Frankfort. I 44:00can't remember that guy's name. It'll come to me probably in a minute because I laughed about it a long time. And every time I saw him after that, you know how he greeted me? "Hello, Representative Hines!" (both laugh) But that was my introduction to Frankfort. I had just got there.

HERDMAN: Where you and Williams the only representatives at the time?

HINES: No, no, Mae Street Kidd was there.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: And there was three of us in the House and Georgia Powers was in the Senate. And so that was the black caucus. And anytime the four of us got together, and we'd be talking about something not even remotely connected to legislative business. We might be talking about family or whatever, but everybody got to whispering, 'What's the black caucus going to do?' (laughs) It was really kind a funny.

HERDMAN: (laughs) Yeah.

HINES: And sometimes we'd do it on purpose. We just say, "Let's meet at Georgia's desk, or let's meet at Mae's desk." And we'd meet and we be 45:00talking and everybody would be, 'What are they up to?' (both laughs)

HINES: But I mean, you know, it was just altogether different atmosphere then what it is now. You had some nuts in there, because you had some things, especially in the House. Used to have some things going on in the House. You know, you hear about people carrying guns.

HERDMAN: I hadn't heard that.

HINES: Oh yeah, they carry guns in there, you know. You didn't have the gun detectors and all that stuff back then.

HERDMAN: Right.

HINES: But them guys from down there in the country or somewhere,

HERDMAN: (laughs) Let me ask you about that--

HINES:--and one guy walked around carrying a can. Spitting tobacco all day. (laughs) All day long, had it sitting on his desk, wherever he went, he had that can. (laughs) Blah, you know. Oh my God.

HERDMAN: Did you notice regional block voting, like Eastern Kentucky--

HINES:--oh yeah--

HERDMAN:--the Bluegrass?

HINES: You know, Jeff--

[Tape 1, side 1 ends; side 2 begins.]

HERDMAN: Okay, go ahead.

HINES: Well, Jefferson County's always got the neck of the chicken, so to speak. And for one of the reason, I blame it on Jefferson County 46:00delegation because if they would stick together, but it seems like it was always Jefferson County, Central Kentucky which Lexington, and Northern Kentucky, that usually had to try to stick together against the rest of the state.

HERDMAN: So the west and east voted together.

HINES: Yeah, yeah, well, it was most, it was mainly the rest of the state against Jefferson County. You know, unless we were able through personal relationships to influence some of the rural legislators. You know, you establish or they have something, or we have something that they really needed us, you know.

HERDMAN: So then negotiations, tradeoffs, yeah.

HINES: Yeah, negotiations, but still, I mean, even to this day based on the financial situation, Jefferson County doesn't get anything near 47:00their fair share of tax revenues based on what we send down there, down to Frankfort, you know. And it's been that way and be that way. That's the reason there's never been a Governor elected from Jefferson County. We got close one time with Wilson Wyatt. He was elected Lieutenant Governor. And then, I think something happened, Wetherby- -was it Wetherby? I think Wetherby--no, it wasn't Wetherby, but some other Governor who got in by some other means, before something. I can't remember the exact set of circumstances, but as far as an actual gubernatorial election, there's never been a Governor elected form Jefferson County.

HERDMAN: Well, since you bring that up, let's talk about the Governors. You went in under--let's see who was in office when you first served?

HINES: I believe it was--

HERDMAN: Carroll?

HINES: John Y Brown, no--yeah, yeah, it was Carroll, Julian Carroll. 48:00Yeah, Julian Carroll.

HERDMAN: And then John Y. Brown.

HINES: Then John Y. Brown.

HERDMAN: And then Martha Layne Collins.

HINES: Then Martha Layne Collins.

HERDMAN: And then, is that all you served under?

HINES: I believe so because a little man succeeded Martha Layne Collins; he died. What was his name? A little short guy.

HERDMAN: Wilkinson?

HINES: Yeah.

HERDMAN: Yeah.

HINES: Wallace Wilkinson.

HERDMAN: So, how were the Governors different? You mentioned some change in relationship between the legislature and executive branch.

HINES: Well, like I said, at that time my first term was when the legislature sort of took the initiative in regard to pulling, utilizing their power.

HERDMAN: Now, being a freshman, were you part of that? Or did you--

HINES:--well, you know, being a freshman I really didn't know what was going on. (Herdman laughs) You know, because, like I say, I was not 49:00too political savvy, initially--

HERDMAN:--party politics?

HINES: In any kind of politics. You know, not really, I mean I had served nine years on the school board, but that's nonpartisan. At least it's supposed to be. And so we didn't, I didn't, I hadn't had never gotten involved in the partisan side of it. But I just remember going to meetings and everybody asking me to vote for him, vote for me, and I'm running for this and I'm running for that, and you vote for me, we need your vote, and blah, blah, blah, you know. These different caucuses that getting together up there at Kentucky Dam Village, you know.

HERDMAN: Um-hm.

HINES: And, of course, the only thing I could do was--I was there alone because I don't think Mae went up there. And she had been there for a while in Frankfort. And that was the year that they had a big thing over, about electing the mayor. And Harvey Sloane, at that time--not 50:00Harvey Sloane, our present mayor. What's his name? Mayor of Louisville?

HERDMAN: I don't know his name.

HINES: But anyway, he was--they had a deadlock on the electing the president of the Board of Alderman. And he was up to be that person. And the same guy who eventually ran against me, Porter Hatcher broke the promise, or whatever agreement that was there. And ended up that they had about, they went all up into the early morning with voting, to try to elect a president of the Board of Alderman. Cause nobody 51:00would give in. So Aubrey was not there although he had been elected, he was--I forget, I think he was working for the Board of Alderman or something, as an attorney. So he was not up there at Kentucky Dam, after the election had gone off. But I remember that everybody was pulling me all kind of different ways, and they were having these caucuses because all of the big wheels had the cabin, the big cabins. And they had the liquor and the food and everything and invite you, 'We're having a meeting, Carl. Come on over to my cabin.' And, 'Yeah, I'm having a meeting at seven o'clock. We're meeting at six,' you know. And I was going to these different cabins. You know, like I say we had the state police at that time were more or less chauffeurs. Of course, the media got hold of that in a few years and broke up the whole thing up there at Kentucky Dam Village. And we would just ride 52:00from one place to the other, you know, and they had all kind of booze and food and what have you, and everybody's trying to get you, 'Why now we gonna have this person or that person.' Well, I had to form some relationships with a few of the local Jefferson County delegation. So, you know, I kind of depended on their advice as to which way to go, you know, in regard to--I knew a little bit about the political end of it because we had to do a lot of politicking of sorts, when we were getting ready for the merger with Jefferson County. And Newman Walker and his--who was then the school board superintendent of the Louisville schools and his staff people were really pretty good at that type of thing, you know. It wasn't partisan politics, but it was politics nevertheless. So I knew a little bit about forming alliances and so 53:00forth. But it was very interesting, and, of course, they broke that up. But they still have the caucus meetings, and of course, now they have facilities there in Frankfort where they can meet in caucus rooms, and what have you, and elect leadership, and so forth. And there still a lot of politicking going on there because some of the folks that had been elected to some of the positions of leadership that were there when I was there, and I never thought they'd be in leadership. But, you know, strange things happen.

HERDMAN: So was it Collins or Brown who kind of gave up the power to appoint the leadership?

HINES: I don't think either one of them gave it up; I think it was Julian Carroll--

HERDMAN:-- Carroll?--

HINES:--that happened during Julian Carroll's administration, because it was the first time I went up there, and they had the caucus elections 54:00right down there in Kentucky Dam Village.

HERDMAN: So that was that very first year?

HINES: Yeah.

HERDMAN: So it was Carroll?

HINES: Yeah. Because I heard everybody talking about reading it in the paper, you know. I was reading in the paper, you know, that the Governor did this, and the Governor determined who was going to be speaker of the House, and the Governor so and so. Well, that was the year that--and, of course, when Brown came in, that there was really, no, because Brown just walked in and took the election, you know. He had all these favorites and people that had been picked, and Carroll's handpicked the big lawyer up in Lexington, what's his name?

HERDMAN: I'm not sure.

HINES: Because he had a meeting with me in Frankfort, took me to lunch, asking for my support. And then, we went riding around in the 55:00district; he was with Julian Carroll. And knocking on the door every couple blocks or so, and introduce--Oh, what's his--he's still a big, he's still one of the movers and shakers. But he got out of politics after that. But he was destined to succeed Julian Carroll.

HERDMAN: Carroll had handpicked him?

HINES: Handpicked him. And John Y Brown and his money jumped in the race and his personality, and charisma, his then wife--they divorced now, but they eventually divorced--but she was, she had been very--Miss America. What was her name? Remember? That was a little before you time. (Herdman laughs) But anyway, just that charisma, they just flew all over the state and just took the whole election by storm, you know.

HERDMAN: Did he work that way in office as well?

HINES: Well, I think, you know, he just was a charismatic guy. And, of 56:00course, his lady was very influential, and very pretty, and articulate, and so forth. So, but John Y., I don't think really ever tried to exert any undue influence on the legislature.

HERDMAN: So after Carroll made that break, Brown upheld it, and then it's remained.

HINES: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause, and I can remember, you know, used to be a time that you'd get a call up in the chamber, "Governor wanted to see you at one o'clock." You know, something, some bill was up for passage, you know, that he was in favor of, and they would call the legislators down to the Governor's office.

HERDMAN: One at a time or in little groups?

HINES: One at a time, maybe two at a time, or maybe they have a little caucus or something, you know. But I think John Y. just sort of let it 57:00happen-captain (??) type of operation, you know. I think maybe one or two deals that he would call. I just hear some of the veterans talking about the fact, 'The Governor hadn't called anybody; I guess he's going to go for himself,' you know, or something like that. But from what I understand before that, if the Governor wanted something to pass, he call the guys down there and 'Look, I want this bill.'

HERDMAN: Right, negotiate.

HINES: It wasn't negotiated; it dictate.

HERDMAN: (laughs) How did the, what was the function of lobbyists, which has been very popular in the news lately, but--

HINES:--I think lobbying back then, on the social side, there was more lobbying back then than there is now, thanks to the media. Because at that time, my first two terms, in fact first three terms, I guess, they 58:00used to have a lobby--what would you call it? Lobby and roll, down at Kentucky Dam Village. It was away from over there where all the cabins and things, where you go down the road apiece, and there was another little area down there, and then you had about a block. And each one of these cabins, and what have you, had different lobbyists, different organizations, had their representatives there, and they had booze, and they had souvenirs, and they had just about anything you wanted.

HERDMAN: Can you explain briefly, what Kentucky Dam Village is in case someone doesn't know?

HINES: It's a--what do you call it? State park. Up near, up in Western Kentucky, up around Paducah, in that area, and where the lakes, all the lakes up there. It's a tourist attraction. They have cabins and boats.

59:00

HERDMAN: So it functioned just like a conference center. Yeah, okay.

HINES: Yeah, yeah. And the main part of the hotel, you know, the main section, cause they had cabins all around there, and some scattered out in different areas. But you could go walk over to, from your cabins, you could walk to the main office, the main building, and there was usually two or three Kentucky State Troopers sitting there. And you could say, "I want to go to the main lobby," and get in the car, get in the backseat, and they'd take you right over there. Of course, media got hold of that, and that ended right quick. In fact, the whole thing at Kentucky Dam Village ended. But getting back to lobbying, when I was there, I would say during the first month of the legislature, there 60:00was some type of affair every night. In fact, it got to the point where after two or three sessions, you picked and chose which ones you wanted to go to because you knew which ones was going to have the cold cuts, and which ones where going to have the big shrimp. You know, which ones were going to have maybe a sit-down dinner and which ones were going to have a lot of cheese, you know. (both laugh) And that's the truth; we used to do it. 'Oh, we're not going to that one, but we're going to the automobile dealers.' You know, 'They always have plenty of shrimp and country ham,' you know. And then it was something like that every night, and then you'd go up to the country club. You 61:00know, to the Frankfort Country Club, they'd have a big thing out there, somebody would, you know. There were certain outfits. And automobile dealers I can remember because they always had a goodie, you know. And then there--

HERDMAN:--what were the other big lobbyist that you know of?

HINES: Well, it was organizations more so than personalities, you know.

HERDMAN: Did you deal with any unions?

HINES: Oh yeah, unions had them, you know, they all of them. But you got to meet them at various functions, and they'd talk to you if they had legislation pending that they were interested in. But very rarely can I remember any lobbyist really trying to twist my arm. You know, they would try to maybe have an affair and present their particular side of something that they were interested in.

HERDMAN: Did they provide good information for you, like research you wouldn't have time to do?

62:00

HINES: Well, they provided what they wanted you to know, from their perspective, you know. You know, you had to weed through all this stuff and study the bill and find out--the thing to do was talk to your folks at home, and how it was going to affect them, you know. Because the lobbyist was going to give you a song and dance. But I think it's more arm-twisting type thing up there now because you don't have the socializing because they passed a bill that the lobbyist can only--they can't take you to dinner, and they can't do this, and they can't do that, you know. So, they don't have those kinds of banquets, functions, and things that they used to have back then. You get to the point where you pick and chose. They used to have a varmint thing, where they had all kind of varmints, squirrels, and rabbits, and coons, and raccoons, and all that kind of stuff. Cooked, you know, for you to 63:00eat. (both laugh)

HERDMAN: Wow! I don't know about that one.

HINES: They'd have that. Well, you know, a lot of folks from down in the country, you know, a rural area, that was right up their thing. Now, I didn't make too many of those.

HERDMAN: Who did you--what job did you do while you were serving?

HINES: Well, you know, when you get up there you're assigned to various committees. You put in for the committees you want, and fortunately, during my tenure I usually got the committees I wanted to be on. I was on the health and welfare, education, health and welfare--I'm trying to think what other committee.

HERDMAN: Was that just the first year, or just over?

HINES: No, that was the whole time I was there. I still got some cards.

HERDMAN: Says Carl Hines, Senior State Representative. Committees: Cities, Education, Health and Welfare. (talking over each other)

HINES: Cities, yeah, health and welfare, I was on those three committees--these cards have been down here in this desk forever. I 64:00was on those three committees the whole time I was there. Because those were the things that I was interested in, basically, you know. And I was vice chairman of the health and welfare and then I also was on the House appropriations subcommittee, which made the decisions as to where the money went.

HERDMAN: What do you think about the committee system in general? Seem like when there were bi-annual sessions, it kind of served, once they started have intermittent committee meetings it served as a way to discuss things between sessions. Is that how you saw it function, or?

HINES: Well, I assume that they still do.

HERDMAN: There are, yeah, there are, but it's gone to annual sessions, so it's a little bit different.

HINES: Well, I think--we had a short annual session before I left I believe, a very short annual session. It didn't last. I think now it 65:00last now what a week or two weeks, something like that.

HERDMAN: It's spread out over time; I'm not sure what the exact time is.

HINES: I think we went to an annual session because, as I said, we needed to do some things. But, you know, I think the committee system--the problem I have is that when you get into the situation where you have such strict partisanship, then I think the committee system is almost rendered worthless. Especially the way it's operating in Washington. Because I think that's one of the fallacies that the founder fathers hoped to avoid by setting things up they way they did. So that one 66:00group would never have total control. Because, you know, the old saying, "Power corrupts and ultimate power corrupts ultimately," you know, and that's what you have now. Because the Democrats on the national scene can't get a thing done. You know, and it was almost as bad in Frankfort when I was there. Because we had control of the, we had a majority in the House, we had control of the Governorship and--

HERDMAN: --majority in the Senate, too.

HINES: Majority in the Senate. So I remember one my very good friends now, and he came up there. He was a Republican. Talking to him yesterday come to think about it. And he was introducing bills right and left all his first sessions. Every time you look up, he was introducing a bill. And everybody was just laughing because the bills 67:00weren't going anywhere, you know. And then he make some commitments and did some compromising, what have you, and the last day of the session, as I remember, he was walking through, what we used to call the tunnel from the Capitol back over to where the legislative lounge was, and he walked through there talking to himself. (both laugh) Because he thought, he was going to have a bill introduced and some Democrat introduced the same bill. (both laugh) It was really funny. But he and I became real good friends. Like I said I talked to him yesterday, we was laughing because he's out now, he stayed after I did. But when you have a situation, where you just not going to--I've seen both sides because I can just tell you. Very rarely, it would have to be an exceptional situation for a Republican sponsored bill to pass. 68:00Some kind of way, if it was something that the Democrats wanted, some kind of way--

HERDMAN:--just do it themselves?

HINES: They was going to make sure it was a Democrat that got it passed, you know. And the same way, I mean, the Republicans go into committee, you know. The committee chairman wouldn't call up their bills, you know. The rules committee would see that they never got any further than there. The majority floor leader's not going to call them, you know. And it's just unfortunate when you have that type of situation. Especially if you have the wrong people in charge, you know.

HERDMAN: Because it's a lot of power?

HINES: Oh, yes, yes, especially, well, you see it every day now, I mean, you know, the Democrats can't get a thing. They are able to 69:00some extent to stop some things, like they did yesterday with the--and today, too, because they were getting ready to call up the so-called "Death Tax." But they don't have the votes they need. And then yesterday when they were going to pass the flag amendment and it failed by one vote, you know. So, old McConnell voted against that. He stuck it to his guns; that's the only thing I can think of he's ever done worthwhile. (Herdman laughs) But anyway.

HERDMAN: So did you, were you employed elsewhere while you were serving?

HINES: Oh yes, you don't make any money in Frankfort. (both laugh)

HERDMAN: What did you make if you don't mind me asking?

HINES: I don't remember, but it wasn't enough to raise--

HERDMAN:--yeah, it's a part-time, right--

HINES:--feed a family of four, I mean, of six, including my wife and I. So, oh yes, I was very much.

HERDMAN: What did you do?

HINES: I was director of a nonprofit housing agency called the Housing Opportunity Center. It was during that period where you scuffled for 70:00funds from the state federal and locally. Had to write programs every year, and submit them to all these different organizations, and to the Board of Alderman, and to Frankfort and Washington to see if you could get them funded for various programs.

HERDMAN: Was it like low income housing?

HINES: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and primarily, we didn't concentrate on primarily low incoming housing; initially, we concentrated on integrated housing. That's why you call it Housing Opportunity Center.

HERDMAN: Yeah, so like would it be like helping--

HINES: --trying to integrate--

HERDMAN:--middle-class African Americans find a house in a neighborhood?

HINES: No, not necessarily, just trying to integrate areas. You know, a white moving into a black area, and a black moving into a white area, you know.

HERDMAN: Did you run into any neighborhood improvement association, those kind of resistance to integrated housing that got a lot of press 71:00in the seventies?

HINES: No, not really.

HERDMAN: No?

HINES: Not really. At that time, you know, initially like I say, when you had the '54 decision, you had the white flight. Course you had segregated housing and segregated realtors and appraisers, and they had other means to keep blacks out of certain areas, you know. Like burning the house down, you know, like Mr. Wade had his house burned down. Others had crosses burned in their yard, and all that other stuff.

HERDMAN: In Louisville, you mean?

HINES: Yeah.

HERDMAN: People you know?

HINES: Sure.

HERDMAN: People that tried to buy into neighborhoods?

HINES: In certain areas, yeah. You had a whole lot of that out in the South End, you know. But that eventually, there still some vestiges of 72:00it, but it's remote.

HERDMAN: It was passed by that time?

HINES: Yeah. No, not by that time, by now I'm talking about. You still have some areas where you have some of that foolishness going on.

HERDMAN: Did you find it hard to balance your home life, especially with four kids, your job, and your responsibilities in Frankfort?

HINES: Oh yes, it was--

HERDMAN:--how'd your family feel about it?

HINES: Well, I think they had mixed emotions, you know. I think they had mixed emotions. My wife is generally the type of person that this, you know, was something that I wanted to do, you know. She wasn't and isn't that thrilled about the notoriety and so forth, that it brought, you know. At that time, there weren't a great number of black politicians, and even less in Kentucky, you know. So you were actually 73:00almost on call twenty-four hours, 24/7, you know. You not only were sometimes called upon to represent your district, but you were called upon to represent the blacks in the state of Kentucky.

HERDMAN: Wow, that's a big responsibility.

HINES: Yes, and some of them felt like that. So sometime when there was an affair in Hopkinsville, or Bowling Green, or Carrollton, you know, what have you, you were expected to be there; at least you were invited, you know. State Representative Carl Hines, State Representative Aubrey Williams, you know. And so it was a lot of added pressure. And then I also became involved with the National Black Caucus of State Legislators, I was on the board of that. That's those 74:00pictures up there from that, when we met with President Carter and also President--.

HERDMAN: --Reagan.

HINES: Reagan.

HERDMAN: And those are just African American senators and--

HINES:--those are black representatives and legislators from all over the country.

HERDMAN: Gotcha.

HINES: That's the NBCSL, the National Black Caucus of State Legislators.

HERDMAN: Was Mr. Williams involved in that too?

HINES: No.

HERDMAN: Just you?

HINES: Yeah, so, you know, I had some added responsibilities because they met in various places around the country, you know. And then I was also vice chairman on a committee on the black, I mean on the national--what was it? National Black, National Association of Legislative--anyway, the national overall legislative group, you know, 75:00the total group, mixed group, you know. And so, I was involved in that, in the committee on that, and the education committee.

HERDMAN: Who paid for you to go to like to these meetings? Did you have to pay for that yourself did the state pay?

HINES: State, state.

HERDMAN: State paid for you to be part of that federal stuff.

HINES: They did then, but they don't now. That was another thing that back then you didn't have all that animosity. If it was a legitimate meeting, you know, of course, you couldn't always have pictures like that. You couldn't be more legitimate than sitting at the table with the President, you know. Back then, I think now they are restricted, I think, to two meetings a year.

HERDMAN: For a federal committee of any sort?

HINES: Any kind.

HERDMAN: Or, for across state?

HINES: Any kind. They can go to one, there's a southern conference, then there's a national conference, they can't go to both. And 76:00then they can go to one other, now I think that's the way it is. I know they don't have the freedom that we used to have back then, cause we just send a thing into the LRC, the Legislative Research Commission, you know, that, "I'm going to such and such a meeting and blah, blah, blah," and so long as it was legitimate, and your per diem, and whatever, you know. And it was considered a legislative day, you know, but I don't think that happens anymore. Cause I did a lot of traveling, as a result of being involved in these various organizations. Because they have, you know, these organizations also had committees, and they'd meet in different places across the country. So I traveled quite a bit. But never had any repercussions, you know.

HERDMAN: And you wife had mixed feelings about that, with you being gone?

HINES: Unless she was going.

HERDMAN: Yeah. (laughs)

HINES: Yeah. But she always went to the nationals, you know, the national meetings, and usually when the national meetings, we would go 77:00by car. I had a station wagon and four kids, you needed something like that. And we traveled all over the country. And, of course, the kids enjoyed it.

HERDMAN: How much did national politics filter into Frankfort? Like you would have, I mean the major things going on, the oil crisis, major things going on nationally when you were in office. Some of the people I've interviewed have really said there was a separation, there was hardly any--

HINES: --I can't recall a lot of national involvement, getting involved in a--we may, like the National Black Caucus got involved in things that affected black people all over the country, you know. But not necessarily from the standpoint of just every issue that came up.

78:00

HERDMAN: What did that caucus work on most during the years you were in office?

HINES: Same, same things. Education, integration, housing, and welfare reform, and health, employment, those types of issues. I don't know whether you noticed, but when you go out, if you'll take a look at those pictures, the two pictures of the two meetings, and notice the difference in attitudes.

HERDMAN: Okay. (laughs)

HINES: Between one and the other.

HERDMAN: Between Carter and Reagan? Was everybody a little more tense during the Reagan years?

HINES: Very rigid. We sat in that room for over an hour listening to Reagan's successor. Who was the first--what's our President's name there?

79:00

HERDMAN: Bush, yeah. (laughs)

HINES: The first George Bush. He was Vice President. And he sat there talking a whole lot of stuff, while we had to sit there waiting for Reagan to come. And, of course, that, we weren't too happy about, you know, being made to wait that long. And even after he got there, you know, you know that famous Reagan smile. But as you can see, with the atmosphere in dealing with President Carter.

HERDMAN: Yeah, a looks like there's more food and drink and laughing and--

HINES:--no, there's just some coffee cups, you know.

HERDMAN: Oh yeah.

HINES: But I remember when Carter had all of us, when we were leaving he had pictures taken individually with all of us. And I remember right then he was asking me, he was asking me, "How's my friend John Y Brown?" And I was telling him, "The Governor Brown is doing fine," 80:00blah, blah, blah, but that's what he was asking me. So it was much more congenial atmosphere than the thing with Carter, and you can see it in those two meetings.

HERDMAN: Yeah, yep, it's definitely there on the faces. Everybody's smiling in the Carter picture.

HINES: Yeah, yeah.

HERDMAN: Well, I guess, just a couple questions about looking back. What was your biggest disappointment about the way the system worked? And then secondly, what was your biggest accomplishment, the thing you're most proud of?

HINES: Well, my biggest disappointment--there were a lot of those, so I can't think what the biggest one was because, you know, Kentucky lags way behind in so many areas. And back then, it was even worse, 81:00so I guess the disappointment was the effectiveness of the Kentucky legislator, legislature during that time. And it's the same way now, only for different reasons.

HERDMAN: Do you think it's ineffective in getting things done, or ineffective in representing the constituents appropriately?

HINES: I think it's ineffective both ways. I'm sure that some of the things that I saw occur, and done by some of the legislatures, legislators, were not representative of their districts, you know. Some may have been or they wouldn't keep sending those fools back.

HERDMAN: Did you ever have a crisis of conscience where you felt one way but your constituents felt another?

HINES: Not that I can remember.

HERDMAN: Yeah, you were pretty much, in line with what they thought was 82:00the right way to go?

HINES: Yeah, yeah, I think I was.

HERDMAN: So what was your biggest accomplishment, the bill that you are most proud of, or anything that like comes to you.

HINES: Well, there were several bills that, you know, I was involved in and, you know, I have them in a folder over there. I guess one of the things that I was really proud of--it didn't create a big splash--but I think it accomplished something. And that happened during a tour. I forget which term it was, but the Japanese, there were a bunch of Japanese visitors at the legislature. And it was my last term because I was the only one there. That's when that picture was taken. I was 83:00one in a hundred at that time, during my last term. And these Japanese tourists, they weren't tourists, it was a group of some--and they had been around the country and they were visiting our legislature, and they came in and they were up in the gallery, the balcony. Have you ever been to a--

HERDMAN:--uh-huh.

HINES: Okay.

HERDMAN: I've never been to Frankfort.

HINES: There's legislators down here, all of this, then there's a balcony around. And they came in and started singing. You know, they were going to sing for us, "Our Old Kentucky Home." And they started singing "My Old Kentucky Home," and, of course, you know, everybody from Kentucky stands like you do on the national anthem, on "My Old Kentucky Home."

HERDMAN: It's the official state song, right?

HINES: It's the official state song. And when they got to the part which supposed to have been changed, and got the part and sang, "It's summer and the darkies are gay," I just turned around and sat down. I 84:00didn't say a word. But the media caught it, and Bob Johnson from the Courier-Journal took a picture and Bob Johnson immediately when they finished with old ----------(??), you know, he did a story about it in the Courier-Journal. And the next day Georgia Powers and I introduced legislation to make sure, make it official, that the words to that song would be changed. I think that, that very quiet negative action, not negative action, it was negative to a certain extent. But I think that accomplished something that I can remember very vividly because it created quite a--a lot of people came to me afterward, "Oh man, you know, they shouldn't have sang that, you know." (??)

85:00

HERDMAN: Did the bill sail through?

HINES: Oh yeah. (Herdman laughs) Shoooooooom! Yeah

HERDMAN: I bet it did. You mentioned the press a few of times. What do you think the role of the press--probably those years were real important years for how the press changed during how it relates to the legislature?

HINES: I think the current, for the most part, the current media is gutless. I just think that, you know we need some more ----------(??)' s, and Dan Rathers's, and these other guys that just went off, you know, that will tell it like it is, and not kowtow. But I think part of the problem is that you don't have any, you don't have very many Barry Bingham's. In other words, individual owners. All the big papers now are conglomerates. So the bottom line is the bottom 86:00line, the dollar, the shareholders, and what have you. So, you know, the editors and the reporters and so forth, can't do their thing. You know, or if they want to do it, by the time it gets through the editorial boards, it's complete difference.

HERDMAN: Do you think that's true here in Louisville? Also in addition to national media?

HINES: Yeah, sure, sure, sure.

HERDMAN: The Courier-Journal?

HINES: Yeah, I think that's true, that's part of ----------(??), you know, I think it's true. I mean, a lot of people look at the Courier- Journal as a liberal newspaper; I don't. You know, they show as many, on the forum page, the editorial page, they show as many conservatives as they do liberals, you know. But the thing about it is, that I try to analyze the stories where they are in the paper, you know. From my perspective some of the things that I think the whole third estate, as 87:00its so-called second, or third, second, or third, which one is it?

HERDMAN: I'm not sure.

HINES: The media, what they call it, second estate, third estate, I think has given this whole administration a pass, you know. If they want to impeach a man, because he had let a girl have oral sex, you know, which didn't affect nobody but him and his family. His big mistake was lying. If he had just said, 'Yeah, ----------(??),' that would have been the end of it. But he had to go through all that. But they tried to impeach him about it. Some of the things that this administration has done, and everybody knows it, the media does not follow through. You know, they don't hold the feet to the fire. You know, they act like, if they scared I guess they're scared, or at least reluctant to do this because they know that there might be 88:00back ----------(??) at the office. Like I say, Barry Bingham owned the Courier-Journal and Times. So the buck stopped there. He didn't have any stockholders or any corporate offices; he was the man. And that's the reason the Courier-Journal at one time for years was among the top ten, at one time one of the top five papers in the country. Considered, you know, you still got a few, there's an article where you saw in yesterday's paper, the explanation from the editor of the New York Times in regards to them releasing this information about the government checking people's--HERDMAN:--credit report.

HINES:--credit report, finances, and so forth. And there's a big article in there from the editor of the New York Times. But you only 89:00got about three or four papers left that have any backbone, from my perspective, the New York Times, the Los Angeles Times, and maybe a couple others, you know, Boston Globe, a few others. Courier-Journal is a good newspaper for most of its content. I don't think I've gotten a paper since they sold the paper, where all the sections have been in order. Every morning I have to get up, and I guess maybe I'm sort of a pragmatic person. And every morning I have to get up and put the A, B, C, D, E, you know, because that's the way I usually read a paper, you know. I start off with the first section, and unless it's something really important in the sports section, something really gigantic happening, you know. Then I may pull out the sport section and see the score, or something like that. But, it's just a different paper the 90:00way the stories, where they're put in the paper. Like a story that I think should have emphasis in regard to current world situations, and I'll look, and it'll be on page ten, you know. There'd been very little emphasis, even though these guys maybe from Kentucky, there'd been very little emphasis put on the fact that how many people had been killed, you know, casualties and so forth. And throughout the whole media, both video, and audio, and print. You know, how many Iraqi people have been killed? How many times do you hear anybody say over a hundred thousand Iraqi's have been killed, which probably have. You know, but 91:00there very little emphasis. When you look in the paper you see don't see anything about. You see it when they kill forty, fifty at a time, sixty at a time, but they very seldom say that brings the grand total to such and such, you know. But this is the type of thing that I just.

HERDMAN: Do you think that media situation applies on domestic issues as well?

HINES: Oh yeah, I think it applies on everything.

HERDMAN: For example race, are there other things that?

HINES: Yeah, yeah, I think it applies just like-- everybody, everybody knows what happened in regard to what would be the cost of the section D of the healthcare program, and how that those prices and costs were maneuvered.

92:00

[Tape 1, side 2 ends.]

[End of interview.]

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