SUCHANEK: The following is an unrehearsed interview with former StateSenator Carl T. Hadden, Sr., who represented the 5th District which consisted of Muhlenberg, Todd, Logan, Simpson, and Butler counties from 1967 to 1971. The interview was conducted by Jeffrey Suchanek on October 30, 1990 at 9 a.m. in Elkton, Kentucky. [Pause in taping]. Okay, this morning we're talking with Mr. Carl Hadden. Mr. Hadden, could you tell me when and where you were born?
HADDEN: Yes, I was born in Elkton, Todd County, Kentucky, on July the4th, nineteen and fifteen, five miles north of Elkton on a farm. I 1:00was the sixth son and stayed with my father there until I was eighteen and completed high school, at which time I left and volunteered for the Marine Corps.
SUCHANEK: What year was that?
HADDEN: That was in nineteen and thirty-four. There was no employmenthere in the area, no funds to go to school on, and I joined the Marines for lack of something else to do. It wasn't by choice. And after joining the Marines and getting out of the Marines, I, while in there, I knew and felt it necessary that I further my education, so I entered 2:00school at Bowling Green, Kentucky, what was then as known as West Kentucky State Teachers College.
SUCHANEK: How long were you in the Marine Corps?
HADDEN: I was in there some fifteen months, medically surveyed out dueto fallen arches, and that was the reason for my getting right back into school. I'd already realized that I needed to know more, needed to have a better education and learn something where I could earn a living.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Where did you go to basic training for the Marines?3:00
HADDEN: Paris Island.
SUCHANEK: Was that the first time you'd been out of Kentucky?
HADDEN: I, not out of Kentucky but maybe out of the adjacent states, say,Tennessee and, why, in Indiana. I hadn't been any further than that.
SUCHANEK: Did you get homesick?
HADDEN: No. I, my mother died when I was not quite five years old, andmy father worked from can until can't, and he had to make a living with the help of the older sons farming. They, I-then the stepmother, but there wasn't the love at home like maybe having your own mother, and so I didn't miss the family. I did miss my father and my, of course, my stepmother and brothers, but I was out on my own. 4:00
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What were your parent's names?
HADDEN: My father was Joseph Newton Hadden and my mother Nettie LathamHadden. My father was from a family of nine and my mother had eight sisters and no brothers.
SUCHANEK: Is that right (laughs)?
HADDEN: So we were from large families. On my family I like to tellthat story that there was six of us boys, and each of us had two sisters (Suchanek laughs), which made a large family.
HADDEN: And some of the good ministers liked to say two and a halfdozen, that was (Suchanek laughs)-
SUCHANEK: Now, your mom's name was spelled how?
HADDEN: Nettie, N-E-T-T-I-E .5:00
SUCHANEK: Okay, okay. And they worked on the, they had a farm?
HADDEN: They lived on a, at the time I left the farm, we were operating612 acres of land there, had eight sharecroppers on the place.
SUCHANEK: I see. What industry were you in? What did you grow?
HADDEN: General farming. We had, tobacco was our main enterprise.Corn, tobacco, and we had milk cows most of the time that I was there on the farm, four hundred acres of upland and a couple of hundred acres of bottomland. Diversified farming I guess you would call it.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Did you like farm life?
HADDEN: I liked farm life. In fact, sometimes I wish I hadn't crossedthat bridge coming from that farm going south to Elkton (laughs). 6:00
SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. Now, where was your farm located?
HADDEN: Five miles north of Elkton-
HADDEN: on the Hadden Mill Road.
SUCHANEK: It was called Hadden Mill Road for a reason, I suppose?
HADDEN: That's been known as Hadden Mill Road as long as I canrecollect, and I don't, other than the name Hadden, that's all I-
HADDEN: know it by.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What else can you tell me about your family? How manybrothers and sisters do you have?
HADDEN: I have five brothers and two sisters. Now, my father does, ordid have, a half sister and a half brother, so that made ten in all. My brother and I are the only two living from the first family, and my 7:00half brother and half sister are still living.
SUCHANEK: Okay. When did your father remarry then?
HADDEN: My father remarried, I guess, I was some six years old.
SUCHANEK: Okay. So it was about a year or so after your mother died?
HADDEN: Couple of years, uh-huh.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Was that, was that a normal circumstance being, havingsuch a large family for a man to remarry as soon as that?
HADDEN: I don't know if it were normal but we got along fine. I didwith my stepmother, and she was as nice to me as I would hope any stepmother could be.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What was her name?
HADDEN: Her name was Iris.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you remember your grandparents at all?8:00
HADDEN: I only remember one of my grandparents, that's on my mother'sside, and just him. I do not remember my grandfather on my father's side or grandmother on my mother's side. They were deceased before I remember. And my grandmother on my mother's side I did not remember.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Were they involved in farming?
HADDEN: Yes, they were involved in farming.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. They lived here in the Elkton area or in Todd County?
HADDEN: All in Todd County. Now on my mother's side, they were born inthe extreme northern part of the county, and my, on my father's side, they were born some five miles out from north of Elkton.
SUCHANEK: Okay. How far back in Kentucky do your family roots go?9:00
HADDEN: I've been asked that question many times and I never did studythe family tree, and I would think as many as two hundred years, anyway, in the State of Kentucky. Putting a bit of humor in there, why, I woke one Sunday afternoon and came from the bedroom out to the living room and I heard my wife tell this one man that, "I've heard all about the Haddens I want to." Now, he had been as far as away as Scotland learning more about the Haddens, but my wife had, would have 10:00liked to have ended that conversation then (both laugh). So that phase of it, we haven't, I haven't delved in that all that much. I recall our oldest daughter, she was trying to help my granddaughter down in Homer, Louisiana, about writing the family tree, and we gave her what information she, that we had about it. She said, "Oh, mother, I think I can finish this up. We'll make up some names and put them in it" (both laugh).
SUCHANEK: We'll just keep that between us. I don't think genealogistswould like that too much. Okay. What do you remember most about your 11:00childhood?
HADDEN: I guess the getting up early and going to bed early. We wereworking on the farm, when we were large enough to work, why, we went to the field with the men on the farm too. We did have time for the, some fishing. We had time for some hunting. Had the old swimming hole where gangs came in to, gangs of boys, to swim there, and maybe we'd wallow down an acre or two of corn around that swimming hole. We 12:00were always promised that if we got this work done from Monday through Saturday at noon we'd get to go to town on Saturday afternoon. But it was very few times that we ever caught up the work to where we could go to (both laugh), come to Elkton on Saturday afternoon.
SUCHANEK: What did you do-
HADDEN: Plenty to do on a farm.
SUCHANEK: what did you do when you went to Elkton on Saturday afternoon?
HADDEN: Most of time, why, stayed with father hoping that I would getenough change from him to get something to eat or drink that afternoon. There was very little entertainment at that point in time. I don't 13:00recall having gone to the movie, maybe once or twice. We did have a movie here in Elkton. Played ball some with the boys and girls I went to school with.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Well, where did you go to school?
HADDEN: Went to, all my first twelve years were here in Elkton, theElkton High School it was called. Went to the grade school and then Elkton High School.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Do you remember who some of your teachers were?
HADDEN: I remember a few of them. In the first grade, my first-gradeteacher just died here a year, maybe a year ago. 14:00
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: She was 100 years old.
SUCHANEK: My goodness.
HADDEN: And her birthday happened to be the same as mine. Miss MaryPenick. And then my second-grade schoolteacher is still living. She-
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: she lives out here at Allensville. Wait a minute, I maybe telling that wrong. Miss Alzeda still living? [Mrs. Hadden in background: "Um-hm."]. That's right, Miss Alzeda Johnson. And I recall having gone to school, or attended a class at Western Kentucky State Teachers College. Her sister, Dr. Johnson, she taught one class in psychology, and I thought one of the greatest teachers up there. Those words flowed from her mouth just like water from a brook. She was a 15:00wonderful instructor. I highly commend nearly all of the teachers at Western Kentucky State Teachers College. They were teachers.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What subjects did you take in school, do you recall?
HADDEN: Mostly agriculture. I took general courses in college: animalhusbandry, had beekeeping, of course, had to have some math and history, English. Would you like a story about the English teacher the first time I entered her class? 16:00
HADDEN: Okay. This, I, when I got out of the Marines, they had begunschool some two weeks prior to my entering and I was searching for this Class 101A, I believe it was, in English. And I rapped this door and a lady came to the door and I asked her if this was English Class 101A and she said, "Yes." And I started to ask her her name and she said, "Come right on in." And she took me up to the front of the class there and she said, "I want all of you to listen. Mr. Carl Hadden is just now entering our class and he has asked me my, if this were 101A and 17:00I told him 'yes' and he wanted to know my name." And she said then to us, "And I want all of you to hear this. Some of the students call me stiff, some of them call me stuff, but my real name is Miss Stiff. If any of you young men want to change my name, you're welcome to it" (Suchanek laughs). This was in the fall of nineteen and thirty-seven.
SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. Tell me, what was the Depression like here in ToddCounty?
HADDEN: Actually, I wasn't, I was old enough to know, too, that therewas a depression, but we made our own entertainment by riding shetlands or hunting ginseng or hunting and all of that. But the Depression, 18:00my father, I recall having borrowed money from one of the, my brothers to pay taxes one time. Before the Depression he was using, each of the sharecroppers had two mules and a plow, a 14-inch bottom plow, for their equipment, and then the good times come, we went to the tractors. When the bad times came we went from the tractor back to the mules, horse drawn implements were used. I don't think we knew the difference, or I knew the difference, because I had my feet under my, 19:00the table along into my daddy and I hardly recognized it. Never went without something to eat.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Were your sharecroppers white or black people?
HADDEN: All of them were white.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Is there a large black population in Todd County?
HADDEN: The black population is primarily from Elkton south. Youpossibly already looked at the map. This, Todd County is approximately fifteen miles running east and west, and thirty-eight miles north and south, and I would say this, Elkton is almost in the center of the county, and the, it was, I'm going to estimate it to be 20 to 22 20:00percent black in the southern part. A couple of families in the north. The populated area of the blacks were in the south.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Did you have a favorite subject in school? A favoritesubject in school?
HADDEN: I really didn't have any favorite subjects in school. I guess Ihad no favorite subjects. I just wasn't a real good student. Average 21:00grades, not, I could count the A's on my fingers.
SUCHANEK: (Laughs), okay. And then you went to, you said you went tothe Western Kentucky State Teachers College, and did you graduate from there?
HADDEN: I completed two years at West Kentucky State Teachers College.In going to school at West Kentucky State Teachers College, I then had learned to go, I was going for a purpose, and that makes all the difference in the world in my opinion. And it was a little bit easier to learn. I wanted to know something about the subject matter. But 22:00Jeffrey, I went to school, started there in nine--, the fall of `37, I recall having a $104 in money, and that is part of the money I'd saved from a small tobacco crop in nineteen and thirty-three. And I picked up laundry for my spending money. I waited tables for my meals, and I fired a furnace for my room. So you can readily see that that left very little time to spend other than in the classroom, a few hours in the library.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. This is when you were at this teachers college?23:00
HADDEN: West Kentucky State Teachers College.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you ever recall having a, a course in civics, acivics course?
HADDEN: I do not.
HADDEN: I don't recall ever having a course in civics.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you recall ever having a favorite book that youliked to read?
HADDEN: Reading was just not one of my pastimes. I don't recall any ofthe books that was my favorite in reading.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, you said you had a course in history. When youstudied history, did you have a favorite historical figure?
HADDEN: Not really.
HADDEN: I'd say, historical figure, would you be thinking of someone24:00political that, maybe, you know, that I thought real much of like Albert, Alben Barkley-
SUCHANEK: Sure, um-hm.
HADDEN: and President Roosevelt? Yes, I recall having learned those men.And being a Democrat, I'm going to go ahead and say this anyway, in that he is a Republican, I thought highly of John Sherman Cooper. I respected him as being a statesman. And Emerson "Doc" Beauchamp, who, I enjoyed his acquaintance.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Tom Rhea?
HADDEN: Tom Rhea, I did. Albert Whitaker over at Russellville. But25:00local politics, I didn't delve in it all that much. However, my father was magistrate for numerous years, and then I had a brother who was sheriff of Todd County and, but I was out of the county for fourteen years, from nineteen and thirty-four till nineteen and forty-eight and, actually, I wasn't all that political-minded.
SUCHANEK: Okay. When you were growing up, did you attend churchregularly?
HADDEN: Yes. It was almost a "must" that we go to, attend church, theMethodist Church just adjacent to our farm known as the Providence. 26:00And then when I left Elkton to go to the Marines, I felt that my, felt duty bound, obligated or a must to attend church. And when going to Bowling Green, or West Kentucky State Teachers College, I attended not regularly, but I did attend the State Street Methodist Church there in Bowling Green.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Looking back, do you think your religious upbringinghad any influence on your political philosophy at all? 27:00
HADDEN: I don't think it did.
HADDEN: I'm not going to lead you into a question. If you had a questionor you wanted me to go solely on this, why going into politics?
SUCHANEK: Right. When did you decide to go into politics?
HADDEN: I would say some eight years prior my-
SUCHANEK: Running for the Senate?
HADDEN: running for the Senate. I had a cousin who was in the, LemoineHadden, who was in the House of Representatives, and I went up there one time to Frankfort and saw what they did, and it kind of, it seemed 28:00like it would be interesting to me to seek the Senate seat when it came Todd County's term to run. It was done on a rotation basis every twentieth year, I guess. There's five counties in this, it was the 5th Senatorial District then, and Muhlenberg, Butler, Simpson, and-
SUCHANEK: Todd and Logan.
HADDEN: Todd and Logan. And I think when maybe the first time that Ilearned about it was in about nineteen and fifty. Well, not nineteen and fifty, it had to be about nineteen and sixty. That's, then is when 29:00I thought I might seek it when it became Log--, Todd County's time to run. Tom Brizendine, I recall, was the senator from Simpson County and [microphone comes off Hadden], well. I knew him.
SUCHANEK: Wait a minute. Okay, go ahead.
HADDEN: I had a brother-in-law over in Simpson County that I, that wasa former representative for two terms, and then I knew Tom Brizendine as the postmaster over there in Simps--, in Franklin. So I went over and talked with him about it, and he thought it would be ending the 30:00rotation agreement. But when it came Todd's time, why, I made up my mind to seek the Senate seat here in the 5th District. I went over and talked with Emerson "Doc" Beauchamp who was "Mr. Democrat" in western Kentucky, and I didn't get his blessings. I went back again the second time and asked for his help, influence, in seeking the Senate seat, and he told me at that time that it wasn't that he didn't think that 31:00I would make a good senator, but he had someone else he was obligated to. And so I left it at that, and I believe went back the third time and talked with him and he did tell me who he had selected to run for the Senate seat. Actually, I thought that he might come over with me in that we had always been in the same clique, but he still gave me the answer "no" on it. Then is when I told him that, I said, "Well, that just means I'm going to have to work a little harder then to win this thing."
SUCHANEK: What was his reaction to that?
HADDEN: Well, it didn't suit all that much. He said, "I'd rather you32:00wait till next time." I said, "Well, Doc, that might mean (laughs) twenty years I would." But we had a real nice conversation, friendly, and then as-that day, why, I went on and announced my candidacy for the Senate seat. Jeffrey, I might say that that put a little bit of a burden on me in that I had a Chevrolet dealership here going great guns, and it meant that I had to get out and travel and see the people 33:00in the five-county area. And in doing so, I don't believe it hurt my business one iota. I think it helped me somewhat. People came into my business, and I got on the radio, I got on the, in the newspapers, the nine-county, nine papers in this five-county area and I stumped at most of the, any place that there was in this area. I made every civic club in the county. Rotary Club, even went to the fiscal courts whenever they would meet. I asked them their needs. I talked with 34:00the teachers. This is where I did get obligated, and I'm not sorry I did, but you know the teachers had a way of pulling you in. I've heard of them defeating people, but I hadn't heard of them electing anyone. But actually I would have to give them credit for electing me in that I'd been in the classroom and I'd taught school for as little as $250 a month. Taught Ag. over in Logan County, Olmstead, Kentucky. And I saw the need then more than ever to give them a piece of the pie, a piece of that budget. If I'm rambling a little bit-if I remember correctly- 35:00
SUCHANEK: You're doing fine.
HADDEN: about 68 percent of the budget went to not only teacherssalaries, but facilities to work in. And I had a lady here in our church to cut a stencil, and we ran off nine, approximately a thousand copies of a letter to be mailed out to the teachers in this senatorial district. And in this letter I told them this: for their support in electing me to the Senate, I would be for any measure that would 36:00enhance not only their salaries but the facilities to work in. And I would have to say that that's what brought them out and elected me to the Senate. I have to say this, that education was my primary theme from that, from the time I wrote that letter and I saw the need for education in the district, that that's what got me more interested in it. I don't believe that without their help and winning with such a 37:00small majority, fewer than three hundred votes in the five-county area, and winning over the wishes of "Mr. Democrat" of Kentucky, Emerson "Doc" Beauchamp. Like Russellville, Kentucky or in Logan County is little Rus--, is little Frankfort to me, but today it is about faced. They, since then they have elected a Republican judge even.
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: Logan County will possibly go for our senator, our presentsenator, Mitch McConnell, over Harvey Sloan next Tuesday. Of course, 38:00this is not going to be history until this election is over or I wouldn't have said that.
SUCHANEK: That's alright. That's alright.
HADDEN: Now, I swore in my taking my oath in, as senator, that Ihad always supported the Democrat Party and that I always would, so therefore I cast my vote for Harvey Sloan on November the 6th.
SUCHANEK: Now, you said you had been a schoolteacher in Logan County.What made you decide to be a schoolteacher?
HADDEN: The decision was a job at that time. When I got out of,39:00graduated from the University of Kentucky in nineteen and thirty-nine, June of `39, I remember President Ralph Woods, Murray, Kentucky, at that particular time he was head of agriculture in the State of Kentucky, and he spent nearly all one morning trying to get me a job. And the most he could get me at that one particular time was $105 per month for an assistant county agent, an extension appointment, or $90 a month for teaching school. And I didn't take a job at that particular time. It was not from, it was from June the 2nd to July 40:00the 19th of `39 that I waited, and then is when I got a, went with Farmers Home Administration up in eastern Kentucky, Wolfe County. Campton, Kentucky. And I spent some three years with Farmers Home Administration it is known as now, and was transferred then to western Kentucky at Murray, and they closed the office at Murray, Kentucky with Farmers Home Administration, so that left me without employment.
SUCHANEK: That would've been about 1944 or `45?
HADDEN: Nineteen and forty-two.
HADDEN: And then is when I took the job in the Logan County schoolsystem rather than moving back to eastern Kentucky, and taught there 41:00some three years. The, doing, well I only taught from July until March, July of `42 until March of `43, at which time I was drafted into the World War Two, the service.
SUCHANEK: Into the Army?
HADDEN: Into the Army. Now, they said, had this medical survey out ofthe Marines. They wouldn't have me back in the Marines. I had to, was drafted into the Army. I spent from March the 13th through, of `43, to January the 6th of nineteen and forty-six in Chicago in the Army as 42:00a dairy and meat inspector. After which time I came back and finished up approximately three years teaching, and then went into business for myself in 1948.
SUCHANEK: Okay. When you went to the University of Kentucky, we havean Alumni/Faculty Oral History Project, so I'm going to ask you some questions about that. Do you remember who some of your professors were up there at U.K. at that time? How long did you spend there?
HADDEN: I spent two years at the University of Kentucky, the fall of`37 to June of `39. Yes, I remember some of them. I believe it was President McVey at that particular time, and some of my teachers were Dr. Olney, and Dean Horlacher was the dean there, and I'm going to 43:00have to recall some of the teachers. That's been some time ago.
SUCHANEK: Where did you stay when you lived in Lexington?
HADDEN: I spent the first year in the Alpha-Gamma-Rho Fraternity. Thereagain, I was working anywhere from four to ten hours a day at a service station right down from the Alpha-Gamma-Rho house on East High and South Limestone there at an Uptown Gulf Service Station. Now, by the 44:00way, this one man that owned that service station came from Elkton, Kentucky.
SUCHANEK: Oh, he did?
HADDEN: And his father had one of the first garages in Elkton. JulianThompson.
SUCHANEK: Did you know the family?
HADDEN: I did not know the family before that.
SUCHANEK: But that gave you some, some kind of a, being from Elkton,that gave you an "in" sort of?
HADDEN: That gave me a little bit of an "in." I recall exactly what hesaid when I went in and asked him for the job. He asked me where I was from and I told him from Elkton, Kentucky. And he said, "Well, you couldn't be worth a damn coming from Elkton" (both laugh), because, I not knowing that that's where he came from.
SUCHANEK: Okay. I'm going to have to turn this over.45:00
[End of Tape #1, Side #1]
[Begin Tape #1, Side #2]
SUCHANEK: Okay, we were talking about U.K., your days at U.K. Go ahead.
HADDEN: I neglected, thinking of one of the most important teacher that,I guess in my time at the University of Kentucky, Lawrence A. Bradford. He wrote a book on business management, Ag. Business. And some of my, I have several hours in agricultural economics, marketing being one, and farm management is what Lawrence Bradford stared in. And I recall him bringing the Lexington Leader paper into our classroom one day and holding it up in front of us, and here was Silas Stokes combining or 46:00threshing tobacco seed, and him stating to us this, that Mr. Stokes made more money this morning that, combining those tobacco seeds, than I will make all year teaching school (Suchanek laughs). And then he, in a conference with him one day, why, he talked with me about my livelihood, just like you're doing this morning, and Lawrence said, "Do you know what I would like for you to do, is to rearrange that farm how you think it should be operated. What would you do if you owned that 47:00612 acres of land?" Well, I had already been thinking about it because that might be a possibility of me getting that. I was the youngest of the boys. My father and I were just like two and two. There was a great love between us, father and son. So then is when I started to work on that, writing this farm program for this 612 acres. And when I had written this up and made my final conclusion there, doing away with all the row crops, doing away with all the tenants, the sharecroppers, I hired two men, leased my tobacco out, I put beef cattle on this farm, 48:00put it all in grass, and showed a greater profit with less headaches than I had seen my father do. Now then, this is what Lawrence A. Bradford took this paper and showed it to Earl Mayhew, who was then the head of the Farmers Home Administration, I guess Resettlement Administration, Rural Rehabilitation, Farm Security is what it was at that time, and then is now known as Farmers Home Administration. But that is what gave me my first job is that one single paper. And Lawrence A. Bradford is the daddy of farm management in Kentucky. 49:00
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. How did you get started in the automobile business?
HADDEN: In nine--, in the automobile business, now we're talking aboutnineteen and sixty-three. Prior to that I would say, five years' implement in Southern States Cooperative from `5-, from `48 to `54; `54 to `63 in the insurance business, a general agency with my brother-in- law. And then I sold him the general insurance agency and bought out Tom Birkhead, who owned the Chevrolet dealership. I bought that out in June of, July 1, rather, of `63, and I stayed there until retirement, 50:00October the 4th, nineteen and seventy-seven.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Getting back to your teaching days, I understand youused to be president of the Logan Teachers Association, is that correct?
HADDEN: I was president of the Logan County Teachers Association. Thatmust have been, now let's see, nineteen and forty-two to March of `43, I was there a short time, and it must have been after the war when I was president of the Logan County Teachers Association. This, I don't see, the teachers at one stage of the game when I, we had our meeting in the Logan County Courthouse there, pretty good group, size group. I don't recall the number of teachers, but I know that there was a rumor, 51:00I knew that there was a rumor, that they might want to go on a strike for more pay during that one time. And then is when I called for them to name a new president, that I had signed a contract for one year at a time to teach vocational ag. and I certainly couldn't go down on my word. I would not endorse anything like a strike for more pay. I believe that Logan County's school system, I don't think it could have been any better under the jurisdiction of Robert A. Piper who was the superintendent. I like to tell this, that Robert Piper was my, I had 52:00two superintendents. He was my first and last one. He was my only superintendent and a great educator, devoted. In the school system there in Logan County, I don't believe any other superintendent in the State of Kentucky visited their districts as often as he did, and my school board member was at my beck and call always. Once a month they may come by, what do you need, what can I help you with? And it just made it real nice for me.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, had every, anyone in your family been interested53:00in politics prior to your getting involved? I know you said you had a brother who was a sheriff.
HADDEN: And then my father was magistrate.
HADDEN: My father was magistrate, I'm just going to guess, as many asthirty years. And when he first started as magistrate, why, I believe they donated some six days a year to roads. That was, I don't know whether it was a written rule or that they just endorsed that. I believe he got as much as six dollars a month for his pay, and now I believe they get some fifty, some hundred dollars a year for being magistrate.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Had you ever worked in anyone's campaign prior to yourown for state senator?
HADDEN: I may have handed out a few cards for this candidate or another,but not all that much. I wasn't that active in politics. 54:00
SUCHANEK: Okay. And you said you knew Emerson "Doc" Beauchampfrom Logan County and "Mr. Democrat" in Kentucky. What were you impressions of "Doc" Beauchamp?
HADDEN: Admittedly, doctor, "Doc" Beauchamp, we referred to him as"Doc," I liked to say "Mr. Doc" because he was my senior. He was just a hard worker. He was for the people. "Doc" Beauchamp would go to no end to help someone to get a job or to do something for, to help get a school in their area, what, you name it. Whatever it was, why, Mr. Beauchamp was for the people of Kentucky. I guess he held 55:00every job in politics in Kentucky except governor. And he told me the only reason he didn't run for governor, he couldn't speak where they could understand him (Suchanek laughs). In other words, he played the musical chair, secretary of state, secretary of treasury, lieutenant governor, commissioner of agriculture. He had a farm in South Todd. But it wasn't all for "Doc," it was for the people of Kentucky, and just plain old hard work got him where he did. And, really, where he lost some of his strength wasn't by his own doings or something he hadn't done. We'd begin to get industry into Kentucky and the people didn't need him anymore. They didn't need him to help them get a job. 56:00They could go to one of the plants, manufacturers, and get a job, and go at seven o'clock in the morning, get off at 3:30 from the plant and go home rather than go to the polls and vote. So it was no fault of Mr. "Doc" Beauchamp that he didn't continue to run.
SUCHANEK: Do you remember the first time you met "Doc" Beauchamp?
HADDEN: Not really, I don't. Most, you know, just whenever they'd havea Democrat Party meeting, why he, we would go and he would be in the midst.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm. What can you tell me about Tom Rhea? What wereyour impressions of Tom Rhea?
HADDEN: I'm not that well versed on Tom Rhea. We had two factionsnow, and he headed one of them. He was a, not only a politician, I 57:00believe they said he was a highway builder, too. And my father was for Tom Rhea, and "Happy" Chandler was the other faction. Tom Rhea was defeated by, I recall that, by "Happy" Chandler, just vaguely. I vaguely remember him winning that.
SUCHANEK: Was "Doc" Beauchamp's following in Logan County based onpolitical philosophy or just force of personality do you think?
HADDEN: I don't know if it were his personality. I couldn't answerthat question. He was somewhat, comparing him to a magnet, he drew 58:00the people. He was a leader. Had to be a leader to get the people, when he called a meeting they would be there. Comparing "Doc's" politics to farming, "Doc" kept his fences up all year. He kept those fences up daily. He didn't wait till they needed, fell down and needed repairing. When some little post leaned over a little bit, he was there to straighten it up. And same thing in politics, when he found someone getting out of order or out of (unintelligible), why, he stepped in there and got him back in line, whipped him back in line. Back then he had precinct leaders that, he understood how it was won 59:00at the precinct level. So if a man didn't carry his precinct, why, he didn't need to report for a job, for work the next morning after the election. So he'd see he was let go.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What were your impressions of the Democratic Partyorganizations in Todd and Logan Counties at the time that you ran?
HADDEN: Well, I'd already, I had supported the Democratic Party all theway along. And I didn't have the endorsement of the chairman, I didn't ask for it. I didn't have the endorsement but I did go and see them and I met with them and told them what I was gonna do. In fact, the faction here in Todd County, they were not for Carroll, they were not 60:00me. I went to the Muhlenberg and they endorsed me. I went to Butler County and they had already endorsed the man that "Doc" was for. I went to Logan County and they had endorsed the one. I didn't get an endorsement in Simpson County. It was just mustered by going out and calling on the people and solicited the vote individually.
SUCHANEK: What did your family think about you getting involved inpolitics when you ran for state senator?
HADDEN: My wife did not want me to run. I didn't re--, I talked withthem about it but I never did get a "yes" and I recall after having won 61:00the thing and them telling me what the vote was and Muhlenberg gave a plurality of some eight hundred votes there which brought me over and I, my eleven-year-old son said, "Daddy, now that you won, let's let the other man go up to Frankfort" (both laugh).
SUCHANEK: He didn't want you to go?
HADDEN: He didn't want us to go.
SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. [Mrs. Hadden in background: "He didn't want to go."].
HADDEN: He didn't want to go. But after we had our legislativeconference down in, where?
SUCHANEK: Beaver Dam?
HADDEN: Bea--, not Beaver Dam but-
SUCHANEK: Or Kentucky Dam?
HADDEN: Kentucky Dam, it wasn't, maybe, was it Kentucky Dam? [Mrs.Hadden: "Um-hm."]. Okay, that's where we had our legislative conference when Tommy was, Wendell Ford was, helped to get him to, 62:00talking with him to be, elected him constitutional page at same time and he took on a little bit more and liked it better. We got him in school up at Frankfort and didn't we? [Mrs. Hadden in background: "We got his assignments (unintelligible)."]. I'm sorry, I made an error there. We got a, he got his assignments from home and worked them out during the weekend and then reported back and got them again. He did go to school some though, didn't he? That's what I was thinking, he attended school some.
SUCHANEK: Oh, we haven't talked about your wife at all. When did youmeet her? [Mrs. Hadden in background: "Let me out of it" (Mr. Hadden laughs)]. And when did you meet her and when did you get married?
HADDEN: Well, I've known Louise practically all of her life, I'd say,63:00and she was only three years old when she left the farm that was adjacent to our farm then and moved into town. I guess I dated her in high school and then after going into the Marines in, in nineteen and thirty-four and getting back we dated then off and on and finally got to going, dating more often and married January 19, 1941. I assume you've already added that up, come this January the 19th of 1991 what that will-
SUCHANEK: That's fifty years.
HADDEN: Fifty years.
SUCHANEK: Yeah. And how many children do you have?64:00
HADDEN: We have three children. Have one that was born in nineteen andforty-two and then thirteen months later another one was born, Peggy. And then in, thirteen years later the son was born. Thirteen months difference in the daughter and thirteen years difference in the last daughter and the son.
SUCHANEK: And your son's name is?
HADDEN: Tommy Carl, Jr.
SUCHANEK: Okay. And the last daughter?
HADDEN: Peggy. The oldest daughter, Molly.
SUCHANEK: Molly, okay, is the oldest one. Okay. Now, what professionalqualifications, personal qualities, or experience did you feel you had that qualified you for the General Assembly? 65:00
HADDEN: Really, I felt this, that I had a broad knowledge, not of anyone particular thing but I had knowledge of farming, I had a knowledge of education, and I had a knowledge of business and I felt like that I could represent the people in my district well by having been familiar with those particular phases of life.
HADDEN: I really feel like that, I don't know if I should say this here,I think maybe that they should be one that, well rounded knowledge, a little, could see a little bit of all of it rather than the person 66:00you're gonna to interview later there. Now, if I remember correctly there was about half of the legislative body attorneys and I just don't think that was a healthy situation for the commonwealth. One, not, we needed attorneys, I'd say at least four to six because we didn't know the law and right here we are making law. But I believe that, see, fourteen, all they would have to do is carry six of the votes and carry a bill anyway they wanted to, not that they did, but they could have. And with my knowledge about this agricultural situation and the 67:00teaching and the business end of it, I utilized the department, the Law Department over at the University of Kentucky. Louie Nunn had a few men that he came, that were sent over there to, as aides, legislative aides at the, from the Law School which was most beneficial. I used the John Breckenridge, what is he, the, I can't think now what it. David Murrell down at the end-taxed his brain, I can't think what 68:00Breckenridge was right now-
SUCHANEK: You mean a state senator?
HADDEN: The attorney general.
SUCHANEK: Oh, right.
HADDEN: Attorney general's office, I used that office tremendously. Andalso the Legislative Research Commission in getting bills. It wasn't all that necessary or important that we get a bill through. There's some bills in there that needed to come off the books. I worked in being Chairman of the Highway Traffic Safety where I worked closely with them and they had a lot of bills they wanted through which were legit. And they had some that needed to come, needed to come off.
HADDEN: One bill had been taken off the-well, you didn't, wasn'trequired to have a stoplight on the back on your car, well, that was 69:00put back on the books. They could stop somebody but technically you couldn't do anything about it because there wasn't law that, to have one. I don't know if I've answered your question now.
SUCHANEK: Well, tell me about the 5th District and your constituents.What can you tell me about the 5th District? What do people do for a living?
HADDEN: We had very, Muhlenberg had that black diamond and all that oildown there. They were, what they had was on the bottom. What we had here is on top, we could use our as agriculture and Butler the same way. And Logan County had some of the best agricultural land anywhere. 70:00You asked me about the professors? I couldn't remember one a while ago, P.E. ______(??) he was a soils man. He said that he'd rather own an acre of Todd County land than to pay the interest on an acre of Fayette County land (Suchanek laughs). So, that's the difference. We're just blessed with good dirt here in Todd County and in the other counties. Well, I said that everything is underneath the ground in Muhlenberg County. I remember Charlie Getton(??) that I went to school with, grade, he was graduated in '38, he grew some 190 bushels of corn to the acre in Bremen, Kentucky which is in Muhlenberg County so they're, fairly good agricultures too, but coal is their money thing down there. 71:00
SUCHANEK: That's interesting that you could've run for state senator andappeal to the different interests. You could appeal to the coalminers, you could appeal to the farmers, the urban people, I guess, you could the townspeople, what do you attribute your popularity to?
HADDEN: Well, I met, as you say, the people that went right down in theshaft mine, I learned them as well as already knowing the people out in the field and in the classroom. I felt comfortable in the courthouse and any one of the courthouses I went, why, I was welcome. And the 72:00only thing that kept me from winning a big popul--, big vote was that Mr. Beauchamp had a man that was a farmer in South Todd and well liked, couldn't say a naught against him, anything I could say about him, I just have to say he's a good man (both laugh) but I want to be your senator.
SUCHANEK: Yeah. Uh-huh, uh-huh. When did you announce for statesenator? I was, I was looking in the Todd County Standard and in, from January to the primary I couldn't find any kind of announcement, was it before that?
HADDEN: It was in '67 that I announced because I worked pretty wellall that year out in the field and had a good man at the Chevrolet 73:00dealership, (unintelligible) Chevrolet, had a man there that, they didn't hardly miss me when I was gone and I was wrapping them in to the place on the same time, well, you can buy a car over there for less than you can anywhere else (both laugh).
SUCHANEK: Killing two birds with one stone?
HADDEN: That's what I was doing. Selling and politicking at the sametime.
HADDEN: But I used the radio religiously. I used the paper religiously.Subscribed to the nine papers in the area and I had something in them but you hadn't asked me a question but I'm volunteering this information. I think some $1,600 is all I spent when that was on the radio and in the paper and I didn't count the travel because I was paving the way, I'm sure, paving the way selling an automobile once in 74:00a while.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm. I was gonna ask you how you campaigned.So, you went door to door, you went to the fields, you went to the coalmines, shook hands?
SUCHANEK: Advertised on the radio? Put ads in the paper?
HADDEN: Um-hm. That, did all of that and then there was a politicalscience major that I knew, rode with me some and he stayed in the background and then when we would get home at night, why, he would go over with me what we'd done and the errors I had made, and if I made any good and I had that-
SUCHANEK: What was his name?
HADDEN: Sam Chestnut. He is deceased now. And his brother ClydeChestnut was attorney here in Logan. He'd, he was quite a bit of 75:00help to me on that. And I also had an agriculturist who wrote for the Hopkinsville New Era paper. And he helped me write ads to go in the paper and also statements I could say on the radio and it wasn't, we tried to keep it clean. There wasn't any dirty politics on each side, it was just getting that word across to them, when and where and what to do when you get there.
SUCHANEK: Who was the person who would help you write your radio ads and-
HADDEN: Ray Glenn.
SUCHANEK: Ray Glenn.
HADDEN: He lives here in Todd County and commutes to Hopkinsville wherethe Hopkinsville New Era is printed. 76:00
SUCHANEK: So, it sounds like you had quite a, for a small town, you hadquite a sophisticated political operation going, someone helping you, evaluate your outings, another one helping you to write your, did he help to write speeches or-
HADDEN: Speeches, we, helped through that. Our speeches were all short.I don't think I recall any of them that I used notes on, it was just off the cuff and to the point. Spoke at the school organizations, the teachers associations all over. In fact, they would invite me home and each time I'd come home, I came home nearly every weekend, and we would 77:00be invited to a teachers association meeting before I went back.
SUCHANEK: I see, um-hm. Now, your opponent in the '67 primary was CliffKemp-
HADDEN: That's right.
SUCHANEK: from Trenton and in the primary you carried three of the fivecounties in the 5th District, Muhlenberg, Simpson, and Todd, and Kemp carried Butler and Logan County and Logan County, of course, was the most populous county in the district.
HADDEN: That's right.
SUCHANEK: Now, you were probably one of the few candidates to challenge"Doc" Beauchamp's organization and win.
HADDEN: He's never been, yeah, it may have been challenged before-excuseme just for a minute-
SUCHANEK: Sure. [Pause in taping]. Okay, Al Smith who was then theeditor of the News Democrat crowed about your victory in the primary. He claimed that, and I think this is in the article you showed we 78:00earlier, he claimed that "Doc" Beauchamp had underestimated you and had underestimated how much your having been president of the Logan Teachers Association would help you. Do you agree with Al Smith's assessment and how do your being president of the association do you think helped you on Election Day?
HADDEN: Being president of the teachers association in Olmstead didn'thelp all that much and I would not, and don't want be disagreeable with Al Smith because I think he was, no, he was not on my team, he was for Beauchamp, he was a Beauchamp man, I'm almost positive. Nearly everybody in Logan County were Beauchamp men. About the only precinct I won in Logan County down at Olmstead and this man lost his job over 79:00it and then I had to get him back on.
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: Yes. There's people eighty-five years old, this politicalscience major that I mentioned, Sam Chestnut a while ago, we were in the back over to Adairville, Kentucky, that's South Logan near "Doc" Beauchamp's hometown, maybe in the back where he did business, who in the business there. And Sam Chestnut asked, said, asked this man how he was going to vote. Well, I walked up to him, he must've been eighty-five years old, "How are you gonna be for this, in this senatorial district race?" Said, "How is Mr. Beauchamp gonna be?" he asked that question, he wanted to know that before he answered the 80:00question. And I remember saying, Chestnut saying, "Mister, aren't you old enough to make up your own mind how you're gonna vote rather than wait and see how, what Mr. Beauchamp wants you to do?"
SUCHANEK: (Laughs), and what did he say to that?
HADDEN: He didn't return any answer because he saw that it didn'tfit. And he was, I expect, a very popular citizen in the Adairville community.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm.
HADDEN: But, no, some of the teachers that had stayed with Mr. Beauchampregardless bec--, why? Because he'd always been for them. He didn't let them down and they weren't about to let him down. The man that I spoke so highly of, Bob Piper the superintendent that did me so well in school when I was over at Olmstead as a teacher, he, I, no doubt in 81:00my mind that he was for whomever Beauchamp wanted. Very few people let "Doc" Beauchamp down but this one man that I went to and I knew over at Olmstead, I wanted him to be there and work at the precinct and had him work in there, did carry the precinct for me and he lost his job. All I had to do was go in there, by being for the education and by Governor Nunn wanting to be for education too, he felt, I think that Governor Nunn may've felt like that I was with him. I was for education when 72 percent of the people were opposed to education I was for education and 82:00it just so happened to fit in that way. I did get some plumes by, you know, being for education but not because I was tied to him.
SUCHANEK: Would you care to tell us who the person in Olmstead who losthis job was? Do you recall his name?
HADDEN: Yes, I do. Mitchell Parker was his name and I had to go overand see to it that he got his job back.
SUCHANEK: Speaking of Al Smith, what were your impressions of him?
HADDEN: I just thought Al Smith was a good newspaperman. I thought hewas an intelligent person. I knew he was versed on all the politics in Kentucky. He didn't give me any worthwhile information but he did 83:00print it like it was. He didn't pull any punches if it were for Carl or if it were for "Doc" he told it like it was, like a newspaperman should do. He printed the news.
SUCHANEK: What role do you think Al Smith in his newspaper played inLogan County politics?
HADDEN: As I recall it I don't believe he took sides with either one ofthem, if I remember correctly he did not take issue with Mr. Beauchamp or myself because Mr. Beauchamp had a, he had a strong foothold in the county, there's no question about it. It showed up at the polls. I was supposed to have been popular there in the county having taught there for three years and having been president of the teachers 84:00association, having made up my Rotary attendance there, I was twenty- three years perfect attendance in Rotary and when I didn't-nine times out of ten I would go to Russellville and make up my tenth attendance. But I could not break that long ties that "Doc" had with the people in Logan County.
SUCHANEK: Al Smith attributed your victory over Cliff Kemp and theBeauchamp political machine to your ready smile and warm personality, your tireless handshake, a generous checkbook, although he said it wasn't so big as "Doc" Beauchamp's, your memory for names, a good sales pitch, and your courage to go into strangers' homes and stores and 85:00ask for votes. Obviously, what you have told us you agree with that assessment by Al Smith?
HADDEN: And I accept that wholeheartedly what he has said there. Therewas a, I might make mention here that, putting a bit of humor into it. There was to be a meeting on the Square in Russellville and the highway personnel, some forty people, were to meet "Doc" Beauchamp and someone else was going to make, talk to them there that at this point. And I had planned to be there too. I had gotten information it was going to be there so when I saw, I got over there amidst the highway people, along with them, had my car parked over there with the signs on it. And when I saw "Doc" Beauchamp come in across the street I went 86:00over there and put my arms around "Doc" Beauchamp and walked with him over to the group (Suchanek laughs). It made it appear that-
SUCHANEK: That you two were-
SUCHANEK: Right, uh-huh. That was, did you think of that yourself?
HADDEN: I thought of that one myself.
SUCHANEK: Well, that was real good, yeah. That's kind of a "Happy"Chandler trick there.
HADDEN: It-and we weren't that bitter enemies. I just had in mind andsome of the time will be contradictory over this that, remember, if you sling mud you lose ground. But now sometimes I did that on the radio, sometimes I called a spade a spade. "We're gonna do away with this dictatorship," and things like that. "You people got enough mind to make it up yourself without letting somebody else make it up for you." 87:00
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, on Election Day you employed a last minutecampaign strategy that would, I guess, be called booting(??) the line. How did you find yourself in Russellville's Fourth Precinct on Election Day? Whose idea was that?
HADDEN: That was mine. That was the biggest pre--, one of the largeprecincts, the number of voters there and a lady by the name of Bolan, I can't, don't recall her first name right now, Becky Bolan, Becky Bolan was "Doc's" right-hand man, woman rather. She was, worked in the county court clerk's office and she knew everybody in the county. And her husband had the precinct machines, he set them out on Election Day, put them out and put them-but I knew that she would be at that 88:00precinct and that's "Doc's" precinct, not "Doc's" precinct but her precinct. I may be right the first time, his precinct, Number Four. And I had a brother-in-law to come over and stand at a distance away from the precinct there with a camera. It had no film in it but he was over there anyway and when someone would come up to vote, why, he would pretend he would be taking pictures of them going and they, McMillan, I believe was the sheriff's name, he was down at another precinct working. He was gonna work that one and he found out that this was all going on, why, he came up and he eased up and told me, "If you want 89:00this man over here to go home tonight and be alive you better tell him to get away from here." I said, "I don't know that man." I said, "He may be (laughs), he may be from the Louisville Courier-Journal, I'm told he is." But he got so shaken and so torn up that he left. We took that precinct if I'm not mistaken or we lost it maybe by a few votes. I, we lost it by a few votes, I know now, and the person that I had, my brother down at the other precinct where the sheriff was, he won his as (laughs) and the sheriff did go home. He was afraid to stay.
SUCHANEK: That's a good story.
HADDEN: Well, they tempted me every way to leave that precinct. Theycould've taken it right there. 90:00
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm. I believe I'm gonna have to change tapes here.
[End of Tape #1, Side #2]
[Begin of Tape #2, Side #1]
HADDEN: I became acquainted with the government-
SUCHANEK: Okay, this is, this is tape two of the Carl Hadden interviewon October 30th. Okay, you were saying?
HADDEN: You asked me some time ago if, what courses I took in governmentor in civics and I didn't recall having taken any courses in civics or government, but when I decided to run I knew I would need to know something about civics and government. So I went out to the high school here and asked Mr. Lannum who taught that maybe in the sixth 91:00or seventh grade and told him I would like for them to do me a paper to give me some information about the legislative branch and the judicial branch and the, what?
SUCHANEK: Executive branch?
HADDEN: Executive branch of government. And that he did. He felthonored that he would call on him to do that and I really was seeking information. So, then he got me those papers together, one on the executive branch, one on the legislative, and one on the judicial branch. And that same group that brought it to me and went over it with me I asked them, I said, "Now, I would like to have you go with me on Saturdays if you would and we'll go and scatter my matches and my cards at the different areas in the district. We did that. And I 92:00learned from their action there that they took part in. And then when we won I asked them to come to Frankfort and a commissioned Mr. Lannum a Kentucky Colonel, and the girls and boys who participated in handing out my material and working up the information about the government. I believe I still have that, and I treasure that piece of work that, it's a masterpiece that they got, worked up for me.
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: Very beneficial.
SUCHANEK: Now, you had been a supporter of Bert Combs and Ned Breathitt,93:00now their man in that gubernatorial election at the time that you ran for state senator was Henry Ward, did you get any kind of support from the Combs-Breathitt-Ward organization in your general election race against the Republican candidate, Jules Gramm?
HADDEN: I'm sure that in the primary they gave me some support but notall that. I would say very, very little because I think that went to the Beauchamp faction. And it didn't show that they gave me much in the general election due to the fact that Jules Gramm got out of the, he got-it could've been lost there if, dropped out. "Doc" Beauchamp did go, come for me in the fall but I don't believe I dragged the other 94:00because Jules Gramm if I recall correctly was something like 3,000 votes or more and ordinarily there would be a thousand votes for the Republican Party.
SUCHANEK: Was your victory over Gramm by such a large margin anysurprise to you?
HADDEN: I was surprised that it wasn't larger then what it was. JulesGramm was a good candidate. Jules Gramm was an intelligent person and active in Farm Bureau and doing a great job but he got more votes than the Democratic Party should've let him get.
SUCHANEK: Now, did Louie Nunn's victory in the general election surpriseyou or the Democratic Party in your section of the state? 95:00
HADDEN: Yes, I was surprised that Louie Nunn won that because we hadalways been Democratic. I didn't have any idea that Louie Nunn would win.
SUCHANEK: What was your impression of Nunn's campaign? Did it have someracial overtones to it, do you recall?
HADDEN: Yes. Louie Nunn looks like a governor to begin with. He hada good speech. He met the people well. And then he had one person in this area that carried a long ways and that was Larry Forgy, both his father and son. Larry Forgy I would have to say is one of the most intelligent men that Kentucky every produced. Now, I believe he's in 96:00Lexington now?
SUCHANEK: Right, uh-huh.
HADDEN: And his father was the Republican Party chairman in Logan Countyat one time. I just couldn't say enough good for Larry Forgy, I could detract, take something back from him in that he pulled out of the governor's race. He may should've gone on, I believe that he would have won the, hands down, could've been our governor. But now he wrote Louie Nunn's speeches. Tom Emberton he, that Louie Nunn had was a great fellow. I think that Louie Nunn had the people surrounding him when he got there that helped him tremendously, the "Kiddie Korps" they 97:00called it. Those, all those people recognized me, they wanted to take me in on the thing but actually, I didn't let either one of them-I was, stood on my own. I remember one time my party wanted me, to bind me to caucus to vote for a sales tax, to not vote for as much as sales tax but I had to tell them I had already committed myself to be for as much tax as it took to give the education, not only the salaries but the facilities to work in, and that kind of fitted us together. SUCHANEK: Turning to a philosophical question, what is the role of a legislator 98:00or what should it be? HADDEN: The role of a legislator should be to carry out some of the things that he needs to do to better his constituency. I didn't listen altogether to my constituency but I did somewhat. In fact, one time I asked the teachers to go hung because it would go against them and it did cost them four votes from one time to another. The role of a legislator is to carry out of what is good for 99:00the area in which he resides, the area that he represents.
SUCHANEK: That was your first priority? HADDEN: My first priority wasto do that. And I've had to, at times, I trade as many as two votes for one, you know, to get something done in my district. It's not a, it's a give and take. When you're sitting up there with people and you, and then you could pretty well count what they would do. I had first the teachers in mind and then when we got there I wanted one thing done that was a little selfish in that I wanted to copy the 100:00bill that Tennessee had on automobiles. I just wanted us to pay tax on the difference, the cash outlay when we made a trade, both in used and new. In Kentucky you don't, when you go to trade an automobile in you, don't get any allowance for taxes on a new car that you, on a car that you've just, you're trading in. When you're buying a new one you have to pay on 90 percent of the window sticker and there's nothing, I didn't think there's anything right about it, but I just couldn't muster up enough votes to get that done.
SUCHANEK: Do you think you were elected by your constituents to be aleader or to be a messenger? 101:00
HADDEN: I couldn't say which on it, I don't claim to be that much ofa leader, maybe a messenger then more than a leader. I have been president of nearly every organization in the county.
SUCHANEK: So, you had that leadership experience.
HADDEN: Um-hm. And that twenty-three years perfect attendance inRotary. The Chamber of Commerce I've been president of it twice. Helped organize the president, helped organize the Chamber of Commerce. There's two other people that we, I worked together with to get it going and then when it died, why, revived it and brought it back to life again. It's the hub of any community, your Chamber of Commerce 102:00is.
SUCHANEK: When you first went to the General Assembly, if I can bephilosophical again for a moment, what do you think the role of government was in society? How intrusive should be the government?
HADDEN: How what now?
SUCHANEK: How intrusive in society should be government?
HADDEN: I, being not too much aware of it, I felt like that ourgovernment had gotten too big, that, would that be answering-
HADDEN: I felt like that is, we, our money, we were spending more moneythan we were, than a pauper state should spend. I didn't feel as if 103:00we were equivalent to someone like Indiana, Ohio, they were a moneyed state. I considered us a pauper state and we were living beyond our means. And we're still doing it.
SUCHANEK: Had you given any thought to what government was supposed todo? Was government supposed to be involved in education? Was government supposed to be involved in waste management control, the environment? Was government supposed to be involved in passing laws, home rule laws, that type of thing? Had you given that any thought?
HADDEN: I'd given some, not that, all that much though.104:00
SUCHANEK: Okay. How long did it take you to learn the ropes in theSenate?
HADDEN: I would say it was, I don't guess I learned it while I was inthe Senate, not all the ropes. There's plenty to learn, I learned this much about it and it's not from a selfish motive, the rotation agreement that we had had before, by the time I was through and I wasn't gonna run again. I felt like that the rotation agreement was for the birds, that you didn't learn to find your way around enough in four years. You lose your knowledge that you have gained while being 105:00in the Senate, you learn your seniority so to speak. You don't get in any of the major roles-
SUCHANEK: Which is a disservice to your area?
HADDEN: You're disserviced to your area by not having as muchinformation or more information than I had. Now, Tom Brizendine before me, if he had sought to be reelected and I know what I know now, he was later, I would've had been for him because we needed to be better represented. Now, Pat McCuiston who is the senator now when they, we had this reapportionment agreement, why, it chopped me from under the saddle. I only had Todd left you might say. Well, he was already in Christian and I don't see any reason why I couldn't say this that if I sought to run and gotten out and worked as hard-I had the tax thing 106:00against me. I voted for the tax, that's the reason I couldn't run again. But if that hadn't happened I would've left and got any, any mind enough to continue and want to do something. I am not, wasn't all that familiar with the way the government worked and maybe a couple of years, but I did put some time into it.
SUCHANEK: Now, prior to the start of the 1968 regular session youmentioned that you had attended the pre-legislative conference at Kentucky Dam. What went on there and who kind of ran it?
HADDEN: Who is the president of the investors here that-107:00
SUCHANEK: I don't know.
HADDEN: He was the daddy of that Legislative Research Committee-
SUCHANEK: Harry Lee Waterfield?
HADDEN: Harry Lee Waterfield, thank you, that is who it was. He's thedaddy of the Legislative Research. And down there, why, we listened to how bills were supposed to be carried. We listened to what had been going on before in the state. And one night, there was ten of what I call novices, people who would going up there for the first time, we had a meeting and Carl Hubbard I believe was in that and we foresaw that who they might be putting in there for floor leader and caucus chairman, and who would be on the Rules Committee. So we decided we 108:00would have some input in it. And we met and we just about named the ones that we wanted to be our leaders there.
SUCHANEK: That was highly unusual, wasn't it?
HADDEN: I never heard of it before and I haven't heard of it since, thatmany, you know, being, going up there for the first time. And I expect Hubbard knew more about it and we didn't invite anybody else in on it like Bill Sullivan who is an old warhorse up there and Richard Frymire had been there before, Dick had. Tom Garrett had been up there before.
SUCHANEK: And those are the ones that you-
HADDEN: We left them out of this meeting. And we, we tried to pick someof the Chandlerites and some of the Beauchamp faction, we intermingled 109:00them, tried to pull the party together, the Democrats did, rather than let one have it all.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Do you remember who your selections were?
HADDEN: I recall Tom Garrett for one, caucus chairman, and Dick FrymireI believe for the floor leader in '68. And-
SUCHANEK: Bill Sullivan was-
HADDEN: Bill Sullivan-
SUCHANEK: was president pro tem-
HADDEN: president pro tem, thank you, and, of course, we didn't name,even named this too, Wendell Ford. Jim Lewis who was another one, I guess it was Jim Lewis, um-hm. He was, the five that we had. 110:00
SUCHANEK: What kind of input did Wendell Ford have in this selectionprocess?
HADDEN: To my knowing, not any. We all liked Wendell Ford. Icampaigned with him, but we felt we would do this on our own and spring this one on them when it came to vote because we had enough, ten votes there that we could cast for that, we might could carry and did.
SUCHANEK: Was there any names put up in opposition?
HADDEN: None, no disgruntleness or whatsoever, it worked out smoothlythat way. And down there they asked me if I would do this, nominate, asked me about my objection to "Doc" Beauchamp being chief clerk of the 111:00Senate. And I said, "none." And they asked me if I would do that on the floor, if I would nominate him and I told them I would.
SUCHANEK: And who asked you? Do you recall who asked you?
HADDEN: I believe it was, it might have been Ford, I'm not sure.
HADDEN: It could have been, if not, I don't know how it could have been,but Sullivan wasn't I think he was a Chandler man wasn't he?
SUCHANEK: I don't-
HADDEN: One of the two asked me to do that, if I would do that.
HADDEN: And it didn't take all that much for me to say yes.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, when you went into the Senate, Georgia Powersfrom Louisville was also beginning her first term, what were your impressions of her, Georgia Powers? 112:00
HADDEN: She was on Health and Welfare. My impression was that shewas a whole lot like some of the politicians in that she was looking over the, her shoulder listening to see who was listening. She was a learned person and she, you could tell that she was chosen by her race. But Wendell Ford spoke highly of her in that they had licked stamps together and, you know, worked in the Democrat Party. And I don't, you said that she had been there for the first time?
SUCHANEK: Yeah, she was-
HADDEN: I didn't remember her, this being her first-
SUCHANEK: Yeah, I believe she was, that was her first term and she wasthe first, I don't know if she was the first woman but she, at least she was the first black woman in the Senate- 113:00
HADDEN: Well I-
SUCHANEK: in '68.
HADDEN: wonder if she didn't go there before '68.
SUCHANEK: Well, I don't, I don't think so-
SUCHANEK: but you could be, you could be right, I'd have to check intoit but I think she-
HADDEN: I wish you would verify that. I believe that she had been therebefore. I don't remember her as one of the ten that when we met, where we chose the leadership.
SUCHANEK: Okay. I'll have to look into that just to verify that.
HADDEN: When she came to life was for her race.
SUCHANEK: The civil rights legislation?
HADDEN: That's right. And she spoke with a camera on her a whole lotabout that, and I didn't object to the way-she was very courteous and nice, so-
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, where did you stay in Frankfort while you werein session? 114:00
HADDEN: I'm glad you mention that. We had been accustomed to, you know,living in a good area and meeting the nicer people which we did while we were there. And I called a few weeks earlier and asked them, a real estate man, to get me a house to live in and maybe taking too long to answer this?
SUCHANEK: No, go ahead.
HADDEN: Anyway, this one from Madisonville, and I don't think of hisname right now that's up there in the real estate, he told me he'd get me a house. Well, when I got up there, why, he had none and it was left up to one of the members in his real estate office to do it and I kept on with her until-she did locate me a house and we found it over 115:00at Montrose Park and it was furnished in antiques.
SUCHANEK: Is that right (Hadden laughs)?
HADDEN: That's where we lived the first session.
SUCHANEK: The first session, uh-huh.
HADDEN: We were happy with our location and we were always surroundedwith even or better standard of living people than we'd been accustomed to. And we associated with people like "Dee" Huddleston and Wendell Ford and their wives, and Lawrence Wetherby and his wife, Squire Williams and Walter Baker, he's a Republican, anyway, Bill Young, Bill 116:00Curlin who went to Congress. And we knew a lady who had a sister here that she would be of help to us finding a place when we got there, Pauly Yeager worked in the attorney general's office and David Murrell who was blind, he's an attorney in the attorney general's office and his wife was, I don't believe she was blind, but she was an attorney. Anyway, that's where I taxed their minds in the attorney general's office and over at the University of Kentucky Law Office and at the Legislative Research, I utilized them. So, Montrose Park is where we 117:00pulled into a family-
SUCHANEK: And then the second-
SUCHANEK: second term you stayed in Tanglewood, is that-
HADDEN: We stayed in Tanglewood. We found out that this lady wasgoing to Florida for the winter so we rented her house with, they were all, I didn't have to move a piece of furniture and with a note on it "whatever is in the refrigerator is yours, utilize it as you see fit, use it as you see fit."
SUCHANEK: Uh-huh. Now, being from a more or less rural section in thestate, how did you view the delegations from Louisville, Lexington, and 118:00Covington? Did you see the Jefferson County delegation as a powerful voting block, something to be wary of?
HADDEN: No, I didn't, that didn't bother me any because their needswere different from mine. In fact, I've had, what they call a "little judge" in Louisville, they had some four or five, six senators there, I guess, Judge Todd Hollenback, we referred to him as the "little judge," he wanted something, he didn't, well I asked why he didn't go to his senators and ask that question, his wishes. He wanted some kind of a wall down there on the river and they-
SUCHANEK: A floodwall?
HADDEN: Uh-huh, a floodwall, and then he wanted something for the jailand other buildings. He wanted a quarter additional tax and I asked 119:00him if that weren't asking a whole lot and he, I said, "You'd settle for a lot less than that, wouldn't you, we can't go to these other men and asked them that, the other senators." And I did get them together and asked what they would do about that and we gave him what he wanted. And afterward then when I asked for something I would go to them and tell them, now, this is what we need then here. And I don't think of anything in particular now what I asked for but anyway, that's the way we worked it.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm. Kind of horse trading?
HADDEN: Horse trading.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. You can't recall any instance where the interest ofthe urban and rural areas would conflict?
HADDEN: No, not really. There wasn't much highway building going on120:00that I remember that we had to vote upon. We had one we wanted, we're still talking about it now, this road between Bowling Green and Cadiz, some-that's the reason for that $600 million bond issue. Back in '68 we talked about a highway enlarging or broadening or widening a road between Virginia and the Lakes down in Missouri and I did do a simple resolution on that, naming that highway the Brakes to the Lakes (both 121:00laugh). That's what, I wanted that done and that's twenty-two years ago and we still talk about it, part of it.
SUCHANEK: Did you have any contact with Louie Nunn during your term?
HADDEN: Many times, many times. I'd always heard this, the bigger thefellow the easier he is to get to. The door was always open and I've had Tom Emberton to say this and make you feel, made me feel good, "Now, the senator is right, Governor, we ought to go along with this." Now, that's how close we got on it, like on my bill on paying tax on the difference on automobiles traded in on a new car, and make you feel 122:00good when you've got the first man to the governor telling him he was wrong and I was right.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, um-hm. Did he ever call you in or contact you directlyor indirectly and ask for your vote on one of the, an administration bill, say the sales tax bill?
HADDEN: No, I went to him. And through Tom I just told him, I said,"Now, you needn't to worry about my vote because I have promised education that I had to be there but let's keep it as low as possible, whatever, we just don't overtax the people for more than what we need." Living in Tanglewood and living in Montrose Park, this when he told all 123:00of us this now, all of the senators, if you ever need transportation to and from, why, call a certain number and they'll come and get you." Of course, up there, the very first night we got up there it snowed (laughs) to where we couldn't get in and out and I called that number and that was on Monday. Well, they not only had to come and get me, they had to come back and get the son, Tommy, for constitutional page, so made about four trips up and then they-until Thursday. And walking to the car there one day the governor said, "Senator Hadden, when you get through with my limousine I wish you'd returned it" (both laugh). 124:00And that's all, I didn't know I'd been using his. I thought it just one of the-
HADDEN: (laughs) chauffeurs.
SUCHANEK: What were your impressions of Louie Nunn as governor?
HADDEN: He'll go down in history as one of the greater governors. Ithink that he did what he thought was right, all the time. I may not have on, at the end of the session where he may have vetoed my bill where it carried unanimously, I might've, you know, thought, well, you should've let that go on, sign it and let it become law or let it become law without signing it, one of the two. They were bills that people, my constituency had asked me to carry and I did, both chambers. 125:00And he may be vetoing them, I didn't like that very much. But he surrounded himself with intelligent people like these attorneys, the "Kiddie Korps" members, and like people like Tom Emberton who I thought was the greatest, and like Larry Forgy, greater than any of them. He just had a government out that we haven't had recently. I don't think of any, I don't think of, now even in our, in my party having, having done all that much. Earle Clements, a great governor, a highway builder. Lawrence Wetherby, the [telephone rings]-what would you, the 126:00state parks, I believe, you name those things, where we were number one, you'd have to say something to the governor on their behalf, wouldn't you? Because they're number one in the nation. Breathitt didn't sell that much so what would you, after me saying all that to say that he did a heck of a lot for education. He ruled it with an ironclad hand, he didn't let it get out of order, none of the programs lacked for anything to my knowledge, even in the waste management or environmental, I believe it was under the whole thing. Have you met Carl Hugh(??) Bradley?
SUCHANEK: No, I haven't.
HADDEN: He's up there in charge of that now. I just think the most of127:00him and still do.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Do you know anything about Nunn's administrativestyle? Was he a hands-on type of administrator or would you call him a hands-off administrator? Did he, did he have, did you have the impression that he only cared about his bills or was he interested in all the legislation that was introduced?
HADDEN: I'd say he's, mostly he was interested in the whole thing, inall the of the governmental organizations. He was for the highway troopers patrol, he was for them all the way. And he was for the parks. He dedicated the park, was already built down at Barkley. I thought he did a wonderful job in all, all he did while up there. 128:00
SUCHANEK: What was a typical day if there was such a thing? Well, Ijust lost my mic. What was a typical day like in the legislature for Carl Hadden?
HADDEN: One good one and one bad one (laughs)? One good day was that Igot highly recognized for doing a resolution on Americanism. I think that was a typical day for Carl Hadden in that he had every, I had all of the legislators wearing the flag and when I had completed my talk on 129:00Americanism the president of the Senate and all of the legislators came down and took me by hand. I think that was a typical day. SUCHANEK: Do you remember your first speech on the floor of the Senate? Do you remember what it was about?
HADDEN: Really, I've forgotten what it was about, the first one-
SUCHANEK: Did you speak often on the floor?
HADDEN: As often as I thought it was necessary. I let it be knownwhere I stood and why. Like my senator right here, adjacent to me(??) 130:00wanted a bill one time for (??) interest. He was a banker in the House and, yes, when it came my turn to, when that bill was introduced, why, I spoke against it and knowing right down the line that he was, had introduced it and was for it. Why, he got up and passed when it came to him. So, evidently it didn't carry. And a bill that I, I did mention about getting the optometrists on the State Board of Health they'd been trying to get on for some eight years and I worked with 131:00the man over, Ralph, down from Bardwell, Kentucky, anyway-he ran for governor, Ralph Graves.
HADDEN: I had, we carried that through that they'd been trying foreight years and I felt highly honored that we had done what they wanted to do. And they showed their appreciation and I was grateful to get theirs done even though I lost my main bills.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. What were your impressions of Wendell Ford aslieutenant governor?
HADDEN: Wendell Ford, as lieutenant governor? Wendell Ford having beenpresident of the National Jaycees it was no surprise to me that he was 132:00up there and after having campaigned with him and the doors bouncing in my face to kept, trying to keep up with him, he's swift. Wendell didn't want all that much recognition. He didn't get many things controversial to speak of. I was thankful for him being supportive of leaving the tax off of food and prescription drugs in the State of Kentucky and we supported him highly on that. Yes, with his background, why, the people, I guess, loved him for what his reaction was. I didn't see him all that great, neither did I see him all that small. He just ran greased from mayor of Owensboro to the Senate, 133:00State Senate, to the lieutenant governor, to governor, and now the United State Senator. He has shown leadership. I think there are people that are just as qualified, maybe more so, but they don't have, maybe they're lacking in the leadership that he has.
SUCHANEK: Was he a strong leader as lieutenant governor since he wasat that point titular head of the Democratic Party since Louie Nunn, a Republican, was governor? Do you recall him being a strong leader of the party at that time?
HADDEN: I'm going to say that as governor I can't think of all ofthe things he's done as well as Louie. SUCHANEK: But as lieutenant governor when you were in the Senate and he was lieutenant governor was 134:00he a strong leader of the Democratic Party?
HADDEN: I believe we had stronger leaders under him like Walter "Dee"Huddleston had more leadership in a minute than he had in a month. Now then that's calling a spade a spade, isn't it?
HADDEN: "Dee" Huddleston I could call him Mr. President. Now, that,he just didn't get out down here in Western Kentucky when he should've been out here, he should, somewhere else talking. "Dee" Huddleston showed strong leadership and he's gotten Wendell out of a few little scrapes up there, you know, of controversy that when he could've been caught shorthanded.
HADDEN: But Wendell his motive, his motto or his thinking was, he stayed135:00quiet on things that were highly controversial. He, and I think that's where he's gained his popularity.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Okay. I'm going to have to turn this tape over andwe'll go to our last side.
[End of Tape #2, Side #1]
[Begin of Tape #2, Side #2]
SUCHANEK: Mr. Hadden, I was just thinking, was there any legislatoror senator that you served with that impressed you as a statesman or impressed you with their intellect? Was there someone that you served with that really impressed you and stood out in your mind?
HADDEN: Yes, I mentioned "Dee," Senator Huddleston once. He impressedme, his voice, he had poise. He didn't get excited and he seemed to be for his people too. I don't know whether you remember him? I believe 136:00he's on, has a radio station in Elizabethtown. I don't know, I just learned to, become to love "Dee." I, and also Bill Sullivan, I thought he was great. I listened to him and he was just a seat away, a seat in front of me, and things, simple resolutions, he knew Robert Penn Warren down in Guthrie, Kentucky and he (unintelligible) my district and maybe I didn't, wasn't familiar with it or hadn't thought of it, we'll do a resolution on that. I, that's what you call brotherhood in there.
HADDEN: Oh, this would be, would have to call Van Hoose, Senator VanHoose up there, he's a Republican. 137:00
SUCHANEK: A Republican. That's right.
HADDEN: I got along with him fine.
HADDEN: He was minority leader of them at that time.
SUCHANEK: Right. Uh-huh.
HADDEN: Now, he was a great fellow.
SUCHANEK: How about Dick Frymire?
HADDEN: Dick Frymire, I appreciate you bringing that to my mind. D.showed that he was representative of his people down there and the day it was kind of a warm feeling to have his sons up there with him, surround him on the floor, showed him a great family man as well as a leader in his community, intelligent, far superior to my minute mind. And Johnson, Senator Johnson, I believe he was up around Newport, intelligent. Gip Downing from Lexington. I'm pointing out those people to let you know they were the brains where, that's where we need the, needed the attorneys and I-Lawrence Wetherby, smooth as silk and, 138:00of course, he was familiar with it. And reminiscing, Scott Miller, Jr. I think had been up there some sixteen years. I'd met him and met his father. Now he's, he and his daughter are law partners together. Actually, it was a little bit different picture in the legislature than I had been told. They, you know, they told that, I'd been told that they, you know, would do most anything. They would, trying to 139:00think of some, the statement I wanted to make about it, but they were other than that. There was a dignity, highly and well thought of the people who came there, they, they show, proved to me that they were greater, much greater people than I had heard other people say that had been up there before.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. They didn't take the office lightly, is that whatyou're saying?
HADDEN: They, that they, I had heard they did not take their office, youknow, to be-
HADDEN: Um-hm. But they did and I would say that they demandedtreatment with decorum. They were more representative of the state 140:00than what I had heard.
SUCHANEK: Now, when you went to the Senate, Carl, what did you think youcould accomplish? What were your goals?
HADDEN: I guess, my number one priority was the education and thensecondly was on this automobile deal. I wanted, I guess, there was some prestigious too, I was a little bit selfish in that I wanted to be counted in there too as doing a good job for the state.
SUCHANEK: In your first term did you envision the legislature as acareer for yourself?
HADDEN: No. I never did envision it as a career, I wanted to go once.141:00
SUCHANEK: Oh, just one time?
HADDEN: One time. But then I'd have to admit that it got in my blood soto speak, I, well, I would like to continue in that I've learned as much about it maybe I make a better legislator the next term and I didn't see myself doing that, coming back and make a living for the family.
SUCHANEK: Now, there's been talk lately of annual sessions of thelegislature or in lieu of that the legislature having the power to call special sessions, do you think the idea of annual sessions is a good idea?
HADDEN: Yes, I do. I think the need to keep in touch, let's keep inmind too that it may not be as necessary as, I see it annually, due to 142:00the fourteen standing committees. If they are meeting constantly and keeping abreast of it, still I believe we ought to meet annually or have an annual session.
SUCHANEK: Or in lieu of that do you think the legislature should havethe power to call special session rather than just the governor?
HADDEN: I haven't given enough thought to make a statement to thataffect. The-
SUCHANEK: Now, when you went to the Senate, Carl, theoretically what wasthe role of the governor during the session? What role was the governor supposed to play? And what role did Louie Nunn actually play? You've talked a little bit about that.
HADDEN: I think that Louie Nunn stayed on the, stayed in his office.143:00He was in the executive branch, he did not have, I never did see him on the floor like I've heard of other governors had done. If he sent anybody up there, why, they, it's unbeknown to me. I think he and Wendell got along greatly together and Julian Carroll over in the House. If he were up there twisting anybody's arms I don't know who it was. I don't think of anyone that he's ever talked with. He's never come to see me or anyone else that I know of on the floor, to my rem---
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, back in the old days legislators used to serveonly one or two terms in the General Assembly like you did but nowadays 144:00legislators are sticking around for longer periods of time and serving multiple terms and there seems to be a movement towards making the legislature a career, do you think the legislature as a career is a good idea?
HADDEN: Well, if he is the type of legislator we want up there, why yes,I think he could make it a career.
SUCHANEK: Do you see advantages?
HADDEN: I see advantages of him making a career out of it, but I don'tsee them keep continuing to voting themselves increasing them salaries, the greed bill so to speak, I don't see that. If they make a career out of it they're gonna have to have a living when they retire out of it though. I'm contradicting myself on that. 145:00
SUCHANEK: Well, I think it's a dilemma is what you're bringing up, howto make a career out of it and yet, make it lucrative enough to attract bright people.
HADDEN: Now, it could be, work that way too it, if it made it lucrativeenough to do it, why, you can see why it would entice someone in there who is, knows the, his work and does his duty, the people will, can unseat you. Of course, I just saw in U.S.A. the other day where 407 or 409 incumbents were seeking election and only seven of them lost so the incumbent does have the advantage. If you can get the right kind 146:00of people in there and keep the right kind of people in there, then the career would be fine. But you've always heard this, I'm sure of that, you put a bad apple in a barrel of good ones, why, it'll soon appears spoiled.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm, spoil the whole box?
HADDEN: Um-hm. SUCHANEK: Um-hm. With a Republican occupying thegovernor's chair, what was the Democratic Party's strategy during those four years? Was there an effort put forth by the Democratic leaders such as Wendell Ford, Bill Sullivan, Dick Frymire or "Dee" Huddleston to formulate a Democratic agenda apart from the governor's agenda? 147:00
HADDEN: I didn't see it. I didn't realize it if it went on.
HADDEN: But I wasn't on the Rules Committee, I don't know what they didbehind doors all the time on that.
SUCHANEK: Okay. And what the Rules Committee populated by longtimelegislators, the warhorses of the party?
HADDEN: The warhorses of the party I would say.
SUCHANEK: So, you weren't included on that?
HADDEN: I wasn't in that.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, it seems as though Nunn was able to get most, ifnot all of his legislative agenda, passed in that first session such as increasing the sales tax to five cents and increasing motor vehicle fees. How was Nunn able to get a Democratically controlled Senate behind his bills? 148:00
HADDEN: Oh, there was eight on the tax bill, 5 percent tax that wouldn'tbe bound by, through caucus on the thing and so, let's see, there was thirty-eight, twenty-four Democrats and fourteen Republicans so no one of, could claim that they were the deciding vote on the tax issue because he still had eight and fourteen that'd be twenty-two and he only needed twenty.
SUCHANEK: Now, do you know if Nunn worked through the Democraticleadership to pick off individual legislators or to get leg--, Democrats to back his sales tax bill or did he pick off individual 149:00legislators by himself?
HADDEN: Now I don't, I haven't heard of him doing anything to go andgetting anyone, calling them in, trying to get them to change. I expect he knew who they were and who he could get to do that, to change over. In fact, I don't know if I can remember who all didn't stay in, wasn't bound to the caucus. Now, he didn't have to call them. Maybe he did his calling beforehand, before we went into caucus on the, on the tax deal. And I know they tried to get four cents to begin with 150:00and, a 4 percent tax increase, and they said that wasn't sufficient to get the job done, to give the teachers salaries that they needed to get, and do the building they needed to do.
SUCHANEK: That was the, that was the Democratic compromise so to speak,the- HADDEN: The Democrats wanted to compromise with a 4 percent.
SUCHANEK: I see, uh-huh, so that would've been the Democraticleadership's proposal?
HADDEN: That's right.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, since you had not been in the legislature priorto Nunn's taking office, this might not be a fair question to ask you but I'll ask it anyway. Was there a spirit of independence among the legislators in the senate because there was a Republican governor? Do you recall legislators talking about legislative independence at that time? 151:00
HADDEN: No. There was some independence as far as, say, Dick, I mean"Dee" Huddleston, talking with me on it. He knew that he couldn't sway me, there wasn't any reason, Bill Sullivan knew he couldn't sway me and Wendell knew he couldn't. They knew I wasn't for sale so to speak. They knew that when I spoke that it, it was it.
SUCHANEK: But do you recall there being any talk about the legislaturebreaking away from the governor's power, to be establishing its own identity, its own independence so to speak.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Cause I know in the, at the end of the 1970 session152:00the House passed a resolution declaring the legislatures' independence, this resolution got bogged down somehow in the Senate and was never put up for a vote, so I was just wondering if you recall any behind- the-doors talk about is that, you know-because the Democratic governors had such iron control over the legislature, you know, bills were, or at least it's been written by political scientists and historians, that bills were preordained before they even hit the floor to be voted upon whether they were gonna pass or not pass.
HADDEN: Counted noses, so to speak, before it came to the floor.
SUCHANEK: Right. And that the governor was controlling all of that.
HADDEN: Now, the governor did not control the House because what's his153:00name, this governor?
SUCHANEK: Julian Carroll?
HADDEN: Julian Carroll he had a seventy-one or two Democrats in there andhe could control them so I know he didn't, couldn't do anything there. Wendell didn't have as much power in the Senate by far as Wendell as-
HADDEN: Julian had, not-he wasn't a leader in the Senate as Julian wasin the House. So, I don't believe there, if they mention that, well, I didn't hear it. SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, in the '68 regular session, your first session, you were put on the Counties and Special Districts Committee-
SUCHANEK: the Health and Welfare Committee-
SUCHANEK: and you were made vice chairman of the Highways and TrafficSafety Committee?
SUCHANEK: How did you get on those committees? And how did you get to bevice chairman of Highways and Traffic Safety?
HADDEN: Let's see, Floyd Ellis was first time and then they appointed,I guess, the committees like "Dee" Huddleston and they, and Wendell and them put them on there, put us on there. Named us on those committees. See, there was enough Democrat people to put on those committees and I actually think and told Wendell that I thought he was in error there, he would, but he said that some of the people in the Republican Party were more, they knew more about it than maybe some of the rest of us. You know, he named some of them chairmen and that was unheard of, 155:00the lieutenant governor or the president of the Senate naming three or four Republicans as chairmen of those standing committees but it didn't happen the next time. So, he saw his own error too, I believe.
SUCHANEK: Now, was it traditionally the lieutenant governor's job toname committee chairmen or was that just, I mean was that technically correct or was that just a traditional role that he played?
HADDEN: It's traditional but then he had some help along with that. I'msure that "Dee" Huddleston was right in there by his side and maybe Bill Sullivan and Tom Garrett. I expect they had a little-Jim Lewis, he was just a freshman too, wasn't he? Jim-I think maybe that he had 156:00some advice on that as to who to put on there. Well, by virtue of me being an automobile dealer, I guess, caused me to be on Highway Traffic Safety.
SUCHANEK: Did you have a lot to do on those committees?
HADDEN: We had a whole lot to do. See, we were in charge of all of thestate troopers and that was one of our duties.
SUCHANEK: Oh, I see, uh-huh.
HADDEN: And I listened to them, that's how that bill on, bills that theywanted through, why, they came across my desk.
SUCHANEK: Such as, you mentioned-
HADDEN: The stoplight for one thing.
SUCHANEK: Right, right. Okay. Now, in the '68 session you introducedSenate Bill 75 which would have exempted 90 percent of the gasoline tax 157:00used for agricultural purposes, and this bill passed the Senate 34 to nothing but was vetoed by Louie Nunn, is this one of the bills that you were talking about that-
HADDEN: It hurt me, that hurt me because I thought it was right. Thatcame from one of my constituents. They'd sent, you have to send it up, money and that you pay tax on that gasoline, the vehicles that you put it in are not used on the highways. Okay, you send that money up there and if you don't get it up there at the right minute or the right day or the right time, why, then you lose it. He said, "I lost three hundred and some dollars," one of them told me. I said, "Well, we'll see what we can do about that." And I got the bill formulated and then 158:00carried the Senate 34 to nothing. I had little trouble getting Julian Carroll to get that out over there-
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: because of the time element. Well, we getting it out of theHouse, I mean getting it out of the Senate and getting it over there, he delayed it more than I wanted to. I had to go on the House floor several times, go right up to the stand and talk to Julian about that.
SUCHANEK: Is that right?
HADDEN: Yes, I had to do more than that, tell him I wanted, you know,demand he get it out. And he waited until, really after sine die had stopped the clock, you know, the first to carry on business, why, he finally did get it out and it passed.
SUCHANEK: Why do you think he held it up?
HADDEN: He just didn't have, he had more than he could get done. It wasa time element with him. And the reason they gave for vetoing it wasn't enough for me, in that it gave extra jobs up there for people sitting 159:00up there to take care of that money and then send it back to where it belong. You lose 10 percent of it ordinarily but then you lose the whole 100 percent if you don't get up there at the right time. They deny your claim. So, I thought it ought to been law. That was the bill I'm, talking about it irked me a little bit, carried unanimously and then let him veto it and that didn't suit me a little bit.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Now, another bill you sponsored in that sessionwas Senate Bill 302 which required payment of property taxes before registering an automobile and this bill passed the senate 29 to 3 but 160:00was also vetoed by Louie Nunn.
HADDEN: They gave the craziest reasons for vetoing that bill too. "Weare South-Central Bell and we own two hundred and some vehicles down here, do you mean I've got to take all vehicles down there to the clerk's office?" I said, "Yes, sir, give a 199 of them back to me so you don't have to take-I'll take them down there" (both laugh).
HADDEN: They, you want to be sure that the tax is paid on them.This came from my brother who was sheriff. He had to, eleven pages typewritten of just the regular size paper, what, eight by eleven?
HADDEN: Anyway, typewritten where he'd go out there to collect eightor ten dollar tax bill. And that was why, and that he was one of my 161:00constituents so-
HADDEN: so, I wanted to carry out his orders and I saw the need for it.So, that was why I wanted the bill passed and then he wouldn't have to do all that chasing around and collect that eight or ten dollar bill. And people ride around here in cars without having paid taxes on them. So that, and then veto it and I, I guess he had some pressure brought to bear by people like that owned a fleet of trucks or a fleet of cars and they didn't like that for some reason. Well, there was more of them than there was of me and so I felt like that that bill should've gone on and become law.
SUCHANEK: Now, one of the important pieces of legislation that passedthat session was Senate Bill 264 which was called the Hughes McGill, Georgia Powers, Mae Street Kidd, Civil Rights Act of 1968 which dealt 162:00with open housing. Now, you voted for this bill and it passed 27 to 3 without debate. Why do you suppose that bill passed so quietly? Was the machinery for civil rights so well in motion that that just didn't spark any controversy any longer?
HADDEN: I guess so because I don't recall the bill now. Actually, Idon't recall that, it must gone by smoothly-
SUCHANEK: You voted for it and, and it was, dealt with open housing.
HADDEN: Uh-huh. Well, I imagine because we just didn't see any need forany controversy on it, see any need for discussion or debate.
SUCHANEK: Now, another bill that passed that session was Senate Bill177 which established the standing committees of the General Assembly 163:00as subcommittees of the LRC during interim sessions. This was a Democratic leadership bill which was sponsored by Dick Frymire. You voted for this bill and it passed the Senate 35 to 1 but was vetoed by Louie Nunn. Later on, the interim committees were established a different way by going through the LRC, I believe, and as I understand it since the LRC had already been declared constitutional by the Court of Appeals there was no way that Nunn could stop those committees from being created, do you recall that?
HADDEN: Yes, I do.
SUCHANEK: Is that the way you recall it?
HADDEN: That's the way I remember it, uh-huh.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Do you think that the-
HADDEN: Jim Fleming I believe was in the LRC.
SUCHANEK: That's right.
HADDEN: I talked with him many times. I tried to capitalize on what164:00they knew about something because he'd been up there a while. I tried, and John Breckenridge, the attorney general, I, he was just a few years ahead of me in the University of Kentucky, he was in Cal College and I was in Agriculture. He was in Law College, not in Cal College.
HADDEN: So I felt his knowledge on that, I liked to tap their brain onit and did.
SUCHANEK: Did you feel that the creation of the interim committee systemwas an effort by the legislature to become more independent from the executive branch?
HADDEN: Yes, they wanted to keep in touch all the time and keep itamended, they wanted to stay closer together on the thing. That's the reason those standing committees were formed is, well, one reason to 165:00keep all the active, keep everybody active on that thing and you were put in the position on those committees of what you knew the most about and yes, I liked the face of it.
SUCHANEK: Did you go to many interim committee meetings?
HADDEN: I did. I certainly did. And I know, don't know if you have itdown there anywhere, why, the plumes, like Governor Nunn not knowing, I mean not, I think the did too, knew that I was all out for education, by being for that, why, he would pitch a, something for me like going to the South-Central Regional Educational Board meetings and things like that, being on the Un-American Activity Committee, being on the Health, Mental Health Committee and things like that. He put me on some of the other statewide committees that, well, I guess he figured 166:00I'm a plume too.
SUCHANEK: You know, it's kind of like a reward for you support?
HADDEN: A reward, which wasn't deserving.
SUCHANEK: (Laughs), but maybe he didn't know that, right?
HADDEN: Well, I think he did but he asked me, you know, what, you know,about two or three things like that. And I say, "I don't want anything, that's the way I feel about it." And one time he said, "Anybody that not wanting anything can ask more favors from (both laugh) anybody, from me." And I don't know of anything that was totally impossible. I don't, well, for one thing I asked and I wanted to get his help on was this difference in the automobile tax and I worked on it until the last night. I spoke on it the last day and went back the next year trying 167:00to get it done and knowing all the time that it should be that way. Tennessee's was that way, I copied their bill. So it had to be right.
SUCHANEK: And the bill in 1968 that created the most controversy, ofcourse, was House Bill 399 which increased the sales tax to five cents, and as you mentioned you did break with the Democratic leadership on this issue by voting for the sales tax where as Frymire, Sullivan, Huddleston, and Tom Garrett voted against it. Did your vote for the sales tax caused you any negative backlash from the Democratic leadership?
HADDEN: Yes, it-but not enough that they didn't get over it or I didn't,I ignored their resentment due to the fact I voted my conscience, I 168:00voted what I told my people I would do. See, if I recall 980 teachers in this district and they are supposed to be represented of their area and they weren't selfish, I don't think, in that they just wanted that because they weren't getting a living wage. I taught, I couldn't go back in the classroom for what I was getting, couldn't give my family the standard of living I wanted them to have. But the five, if it could've been done for four I would've been for the four rather than the five, but figures don't lie. They say liars figure but figures don't lie.
SUCHANEK: Do you recall if, if they said anything to you after you votedfor the sales tax? Did they exclude you from meetings or how did they 169:00resent, what form did the resentment take?
HADDEN: I think for a day or two, why, it was all over. They shunnedme that day and walked away, you know, and turned their back maybe, snubbed their nose but that didn't faze me. I didn't let it irk me that much. I did what my conscience told me to do-
HADDEN: and, no, I don't-
SUCHANEK: I was just wondering if it took the form of they trying toblock passage of some of the bills that you wanted to have passed?
HADDEN: No, unless it was the automobile deal, that could've been aphase on it, I don't think so though. I think, now, this was explained to me, now, "Dee" Huddleston said it would cost $11 million to do that, it'd take that much out of the budget. But I went to LRC on it, we finally narrowed it down to three thousand, $3 million. In fact, I 170:00don't know but what it might've gained the money, it might've created sales if it hadn't been for that, paying the tax, not getting the exemption. If it'd been exempted I believe there'd been more sales.
SUCHANEK: Sometimes you don't know what the real effect of that could be-
HADDEN: That's right.
SUCHANEK: on new sales. Sure. I wanted to mention quickly here someof the things that happened in the 1970 session. You sponsored several bills dealing with highway safety-
HADDEN: That's because I was Chairman of Highway Traffic Safety andthey, they were the one who put those bills in my hand to be carried out and that's the reason. 171:00
SUCHANEK: Okay. And we already mentioned Senate Bill 44 which requireda red brake light at the rear of motor vehicles-
HADDEN: That was placed back on the books, it'd been taken off in time.
SUCHANEK: Now, three other bills dealing with issues such as obeyinga police officer's command while driving a motor vehicle, authorizing certain vehicle accident citations and arrest, and redefining reckless driving were all sent to the Judiciary Committee rather than your Committee on Highway and Traffic Safety and I was wondering why were these bills sent to the Judiciary Committee and not to yours?
HADDEN: I don't recall other than pertaining to law, that's what itwould be because of, it, Carl Hubbard, attorney at law, it would come under his Judiciary because it was, it took legality of that to- 172:00
HADDEN: maybe pass it.
SUCHANEK: Okay. Also in 1970 you sponsored Senate Bill 320 whichreclassified Elkton from a fifth-class to a fourth-class city, what did this reclassification mean to Elkton?
HADDEN: It should've meant that lowered our insurance, that's what itshould mean. Now, Class-Ten is outside of the city limits. We were, what, Class-Five?
SUCHANEK: And you went to a Class-Four.
HADDEN: Alright, Class-Four, if Judge Homer Dorris had-
SUCHANEK: Yeah, you were Class-Five and went to a Class-Four, uh-huh.
HADDEN: Well, Judge Dorris, I believe he was on that at the time,from Logan County. I got it carried in the House in order to make it concurrent. I think that was primarily to lower the insurance 173:00rate. They have an insurance rate per class, whatever the size of the class of the town like Class-Two in Lexington, over 75,000 and over in Louisville, Class-One city, your insurance rate, that was primary to why that was done, for the insurance rate being lowered.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Now, during your term in the Senate, what specialinterest groups did you have contact with and which ones would you consider the strongest?
HADDEN: I don't, to the lobbyists, who lobbied me the heaviliest? Oh,one of them was daylight-saving-time bill I believe that the lobbyists, they were the, pressured me the most, I guess, by trying to be-when was 174:00that in '70 or '68?
SUCHANEK: One of those sessions, yeah.
HADDEN: One of those sessions, anyway, the-had the movie people itaffected, they were the people it affected and it did affect them. People were going to bed at the time, when it's time to have a movie, but they didn't represent the people. I, they were less than one fourth of one percent of the population so you couldn't go by that. And I guess the coal people they wanted to put a, what's the name of the tax that-
SUCHANEK: Severance tax?
HADDEN: severance tax. I was for a severance tax on coal, some, not-butthey said if you started the severance tax, why, then there'd be no end to it. And I believe it was George Boone, I came back talking to 175:00him about it at the Rotary down there one day, and he said, "Well, it's unconstitutional." But I noticed later on they've enacted that where they can have a severance tax. I wonder if it became constitutional (Suchanek laughs).
SUCHANEK: During your term in the legislature do you ever recall beingangry or frustrated over a bill or a debate?
HADDEN: Not all that much. I was angered somewhat about the automobiledeal, I was angry for that because I didn't think they were doing right. I thought that they were betraying the people that bought cars. In fact I made this statement one time (clears throat), to one of them. If I had the power (clears throat), the ones that voted against 176:00this bill, I would see to it that they had to go out of state to buy their car and they would have to go out of state to have it serviced (clears throat), not let an automobile dealer, used or new, sell them an automobile or service it while they were in the State of Kentucky. Now, that was driving (unintelligible) would make me feel-get the power for doing that, that may not have been right.
SUCHANEK: Do you recall anything ever humorous that happened in thesenate?
HADDEN: Oh, yes, the sesquicentennial, were you referring to that?177:00I wore a beard for the length of time and Wendell asked me one day to explain why it was and I did a simple resolution there about the sesquicentennial in the Senate.
SUCHANEK: And then all-in-all, is there anything that you can say youbrought home to your district in the form of legislation or projects during your one term in the Senate?
HADDEN: I don't think of it right now, I mean, you mean that would godown in history as being a-I don't think of it other than, offhand other than maybe given it four years of all I had, showing them what a 178:00workhorse could do but-
HADDEN: hard work and working for them, giving them a full day's payfor, giving them a full day's work for a full day's pay. I didn't know, Jeffrey, what, what it paid when I went up there. I didn't know whether it paid anything or what it paid. In fact, I got a check one day for fifty dollars and I went to "Doc" Beauchamp then, he was in the office down a way from it, and I went across then and I asked him, said, "'Doc,' what is the fifty dollars for?" He said, "That's for your postage, or your paper and pencil, paper and pencil," I believe, said, "now, I've known that some of them have taken that fifty dollars and going buying a nickel-tablet and a nickel-pencil." Said, "You can do likewise, that's what it's for" (Suchanek laughs). But money wasn't the object, never heard of that until we got our first checks. But 179:00that's what they go, a lot of them want that now.
SUCHANEK: Um-hm. Well, in about the last minute that we have, is thereanything that you like to say or mention or talk about that I haven't brought up yet? Do you like to tell us why you decided not to run for reelection? You said that they had carved up your district.
HADDEN: They carved up my district and I needed to come back to mybusiness and keep it alive and make a living for my family. I'm glad I went. I hope the people are not sorry they sent me to represent them for that time. If I made an error, why, I apologize. If I did them 180:00well, they need not thank me.
SUCHANEK: I think that's a fitting ending for this interview. I want tothank you for your time.
HADDEN: Thank you, Jeffrey. I appreciate your coming down and glad Icould be of, hope I've been of help to you.
SUCHANEK: You certainly have been. Thank you.
[End of interview] 1