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BARKER: --in Xenia, Ohio, just off the campus of Central State University. It is a part of the American Political Science Association's Oral History Project involving political scientists. It is with Dr. David W. Hazel who is a former professor of political science at Central State University, recently retired, and also former dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at that institution. My name is Twiley Barker, uh, and, uh Professor Hazel will, uh, begin this interview by telling us something about his background. Uh, Dave, would you please state for the record your full name?

HAZEL: My full name is David William Hazel.

BARKER: Dave, where did you grow up?

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HAZEL: I grew up in Medford, Massachusetts which is a town of about sixty-five thousand, six miles west of Boston.

BARKER: Okay. So a New Englander?

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: All right. Uh, interested in how you got there. Who are you parents and how did they get there?

HAZEL: Well, my--(clears throat)--father, uh, Francis P. Hazel, uh, grew up in Cambridge, uh, and his folks had moved there from Wilmington, North Carolina, some years before. Uh, my father's parents also at one time--as a matter of fact, my father was born in St. Paul, Minnesota- -his father had been the manager of a stained glass firm in Minnesota, and I think they returned to Cambridge when he was about six or seven years old.

BARKER: That's very interesting. Certainly unlike that of a lot of black people who grew up in the East.

HAZEL: Now my mother was from Lynchburg, Virginia and she came up 2:00there as a young girl to work in service, and that's where they met, in Massachusetts.

BARKER: Met in Massachusetts. Okay. Uh, any brothers and sisters?

HAZEL: I have one brother who is two years older than I am.

BARKER: Two years older than you. Uh, do you have any remembrances of growing up in Medford?

HAZEL: Oh, yeah, many of them. Uh, basically it was a rather quiet community, uh, and in New England, uh, unlike in the South at that time, black people used to reside in one section of town. And, uh, although we went to the same schools with other people, black people all lived in West Medford.

[Pause in recording.]

BARKER: Dave, you mention going to the same schools. Uh, what memories do you have of your elementary and secondary education experience in Medford?

HAZEL: On the whole, it was a rather pleasant experience. I went to 3:00the James Hervey School, uh, which was right in back of my house for the first two years, and, uh, I guess from third grade through the sixth grade I went to the Brooks School which was, uh, at a much longer distance away from my home. But--(clears throat)--usually relationships were very pleasant. The teachers, I thought, were very nice, although, I must admit, we did not have any black teachers in Medford at that time or at any time until I finished high school in 1938.

BARKER: Okay. Dave, I, I recall as you are talking about that, uh, the Sarah Roberts v. The City of Boston case, uh, I guess back in 1850s, uh, which is one of the early segregation cases we study, and I find it interesting that you were pointing out that, uh, you, uh, were very 4:00few blacks in Medford and you all went to the same school, uh, and without any, uh, significant difficulties. Uh, when you, uh, graduated from high school, uh, was there the automatic, uh, decision to go to college? Uh, uh, how did your parents handle that?

HAZEL: Well, I knew from, uh, a very early age that I was expected to go to college. Uh, both my mother and father told my brother and I that if we showed any promise at all we would go to college. I'm not sure that they knew how they were going to pay for it, but that's the message they gave us and that's the message we believed. So there was never any doubt that if we could get in, we would go.

BARKER: That's a rather interesting experience, because there are a number of black families who automatically assume that many of their children, if not all of them, would attend college, and this is something which I think needs to be aired; that it was expected that 5:00as a matter of growing up and growing into adulthood that the children would complete secondary school and then move on normally to, uh, college. Uh, about the choice of the college, Dave, uh, what were the considerations there? Locally or out-of-state or what?

HAZEL: Well, in part economics played a part in the decision as to which college I would attend. Uh, I grew up during the Depression years, uh, and, uh, as I indicated before I graduated from high school in 1938. I sup-, I suppose we were very fortunate in having a college the quality of Tufts College in Medford, Massachusetts, within walking distance of my house. Uh, so, in final analysis, that was the least expensive of all schools that I could attend, and since it was a good one, uh, my decision was to go there.

BARKER: It is very interesting that not many people are so fortunate to 6:00come out of high school and be able to move right into Tufts. Uh, many people agonize over decision of how much it's going to cost to send my kid way over to this school in New England, and it's very interesting that you had it, as you said, within walking distance. Uh, once you got to Tufts, what was it like? Were there many black people, uh, in, uh, Tufts at the time or were you among a very, very small group?

HAZEL: I was among a very small group. When I went there, there were six of us.

BARKER: Now you went there in 1938?

HAZEL: No, I went there in '39.

BARKER: Thirty-nine. All right.

HAZEL: Uh--(clears throat)--there were six black fellows there--no girls--and one of them was my brother. So my brother and I were there together for two years, uh, and, uh, I think perhaps there were two or three more black people who came while I was there. But I dare say 7:00there were never more than ten there at any one time during my stay there.

BARKER: All right. So essentially you had classes where you were the only black person in those classes?

HAZEL: Uh, yes--(clears throat)--but that was not unusual. Uh, we spoke earlier of Medford. There were about two hundred, two hundred and fifty black people in Medford. Or as I recall in a graduating class of something over six hundred, uh, there were thirteen black people. Uh, I was one of the few black people who took the college preparatory class, classes, and I was the only black person in any of my classes from the seventh grade on. So finding the same thing at Tufts was not at all unusual.

BARKER: Was, was something that you were acclimated to from the very beginning. All right. Uh, I assume you went through the normal college, uh, uh, uh, courses as an undergraduate; the freshman classes 8:00in English composition, uh, some degree of math or quantitative courses, some degree of, uh, uh, natural sciences, some social sciences; a kind of what we sometimes refer to as a general education distribution that a liberal arts student is required to take.

HAZEL: That's correct. Yes.

BARKER: Yeah. Was there anything in that experience that, uh, kind of indicated where you might eventually find your niche in terms of a major?

HAZEL: Uh, yeah. (clears throat) I suppose so. Uh, I thought at first in terms of majoring in chemistry, but I found out that that was not my niche. (Barker laughs) Uh, next, uh, I thought about history which I always found to be rather fascinating and that's the major that I selected.

BARKER: Selected a major. All right. Was there anything in your experience as an undergraduate that turned you on to politics?

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HAZEL: Yeah. (clears throat) I had forgotten. We had to write a research paper in freshman English on something, and, uh, I did a considerable amount of reading, uh, in a book the author of which I cannot remember at the moment, but the name of the book was The Great Game of Politics. And I found that to be a very fascinating book and that's what I wrote my freshman research paper on.

BARKER: Um-hm.

HAZEL: Politics.

BARKER: Politics all right. Now you continued the major in history, and when you completed the undergraduate major in history, uh, what did you do upon completion of the baccalaureate degree?

HAZEL: Uh, well, first let me say that I did take, uh, a couple of courses in, uh, political science at Tufts, but at that time they did not have a major, uh, or I might have been a major in political science.

BARKER: Now Tufts is noted for its, uh, Fletcher School, right?

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HAZEL: That's right. Fletcher School of International Law and Diplomacy.

BARKER: Had it become very famous at that time, or?

HAZEL: Uh, yes, it had.

BARKER: It had. Yeah. It had.

HAZEL: Uh, after completing grad-, undergraduate school, I had thought in terms of becoming a high school teacher, so I went to Boston University and there got my master's degree in education and the social sciences.

BARKER: Okay, so you went directly from undergraduate school to Boston U, uh, for, uh, graduate work in?

HAZEL: Not, not directly. Uh, I guess I took my first teaching job in Lynchburg, Virginia. I worked there for a year.

BARKER: Um-hm.

HAZEL: Uh--

BARKER: This was in 1943?

HAZEL: Um-hm. 1943.

BARKER: Okay. Got it.

HAZEL: And, uh--

BARKER: In the middle of World War II?

HAZEL: In the middle of World War II. I, I should say--(Barker laughs)- -that I had a brief, brief period of time in the service. I graduated from Tufts in January of 1943 as I recall it, and I went into the Air, 11:00Air Force. I was with the group at Tuskegee, and, uh, I did not finish because I had a curvature of the spine. So I was really in there only about sixty-odd days. I came out and got my first job in September of 1943.

BARKER: It's interesting how we parallel. Uh, I spent my freshman year in college at Tuskegee when the airmen were there on the Tuskegee Air Base, and it's very possible I was there in September of '43. It's very possible you could have just left from there, I guess.

HAZEL: Uh, I left in May--

BARKER: You were at the Tuskegee Air Base.

HAZEL: Um-hm. I left in May of '43.

BARKER: Um-hm. And interestingly enough, uh, a year later I was drafted into the Air Force and joined up with a lot of these guys who were at 12:00the Tuskegee experience when Benjamin O. Davis came back from Italy with the 99th Squad, Pursuit Squad, and took over the B-25 composite group, uh, uh, of fliers with, uh, General Chappie James who was then a second lieutenant. So it's interesting how our paths almost crossed at that time. All right. And your experience in Lynchburg was for how long?

HAZEL: One year.

BARKER: One year? All right. And after that you had decided that you were going to go back to--

HAZEL: No. Not quite.

BARKER: Not quite. (Hazel laughs) Okay.

HAZEL: I, uh, took a job in Rockville, Maryland, the following year. Uh, I guess you would say it was in high school although it involved, uh, seventh, eighth and ninth grade, uh, students, and I worked there for a year. And I guess by that time it was about 1946 when I got-- finished my master's degree, and then I went to Tuskegee to teach.

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BARKER: Um-hm. So your first college teaching job was at Tuskegee--

HAZEL: That is correct.

BARKER: --which is now Tuskegee University?

HAZEL: Yeah.

BARKER: All right. What did you teach there, Dave?

HAZEL: I did not teach political science. I taught sociology though I knew very little about it. I, I remember teaching a, a course in rural sociology, and I remember teaching a course in race relations. Those are the two I remember.

BARKER: Yeah. And you know Tuskegee had a lot of research effort going on in there as I recall in terms of keeping historical, uh, data in their libraries as I recall. They had a very interesting collection at that time. Now how long did you stay at Tuskegee?

HAZEL: I stayed at Tuskegee--I guess I went there in 1946 and stayed until 1947. I then got a fellowship to the University of Michigan and 14:00stayed at Michigan from '47 through '49.

BARKER: Let's stop right there. Uh, I'm curious about the fellowship. What type of fellowship was it?

HAZEL: Uh, it was one given by the South. I'm, I'm not sure what it was, uh, called.

BARKER: Was it, could it have been a General Education Board Fellowship?

HAZEL: General Education Board. That was my first year.

BARKER: Well, welcome to the club. (laughs)

HAZEL: Yeah. That was, that was--

BARKER: That was with the Rockefeller Foundation?

HAZEL: That's right. Um-hm. Yeah.

BARKER: This is very interesting. Uh, an attempt at that part, uh, of, uh, at that time in the history of education among blacks, higher education among blacks to aid institutions in faculty development and the, uh, General Education Board Fellowship which operated out of the Rockefeller Fund had made that available. And I was very curious when you mentioned you had a fellowship to go to Michigan. Okay. Now when you, uh, went to Michigan, uh, you decided on a doctoral program in 15:00political science.

HAZEL: That is correct.

BARKER: Now what had changed your mind from history as an undergraduate now, from a master's degree in education to, uh, move to political science?

HAZEL: Well, well, see when I was at Boston University and got the master's degree in education, uh, I have never been particularly fond of education as a field of study, but since I was thinking about becoming a public school teacher I thought it was appropriate that I get the--

BARKER: This was the appropriate licensing. Believe me.

HAZEL: Uh, but I took as little education as I possibly could, and I took, uh, some sociology. I took, uh, uh, several courses in political science. I remember taking state and local government. Uh, I took another course in constitutional law, uh, and maybe one or two others, but I took as little education as I could.

BARKER: Okay.

HAZEL: So I was well on the road to thinking in terms of political science when I went to Michigan.

BARKER: All right. Now the doctoral program that you enrolled in was one 16:00where you probably had to commit yourself for three, maybe four years, uh, and, uh, with the fellowship that meant a renewal and that meant other kinds of assistance as well, did the University of Michigan--

HAZEL: Push that. ----------(??).

[Pause in recording.]

BARKER: This is the David Hazel interview continuing. Now when you went to Southern, uh, in 1957, the chairman of the department was Rodney Higgins.

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: And Rodney Higgins was kind of, uh, the godfather of a lot of us at this stage. He came along at what I often refer to as the second generation of black political scientists, Ralph Bunche having been in that first group. Okay. And when you got to Southern, you actually were able to teach political science?

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: Okay. And that when, uh, we had a chance to meet I was on the staff there, and, uh, uh, Penson, I guess, was there.

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HAZEL: Yeah. He was there. Uh, Pat.

BARKER: Uh, that's right. Ernie Patterson who later, uh, ended his career at the University of Colorado, and, uh, he passed much too young as we both know. All right. Uh, and you had a chance to teach basically the kinds of--

HAZEL: Uh, Cleve, uh--what was Cleve's name?

BARKER: Cleveland Williams.

HAZEL: Cleve Williams. He was there.

BARKER: Yeah. From, uh, the Little Ambrose in New England?

HAZEL: One of those towns. Oh, you mean St. Michaels. He came from--

BARKER: St. Michaels, this is right, 'cause St. Michaels, yeah. This is right. Okay. And you had a chance to teach some of the courses that you really wanted to teach, right?

HAZEL: Yes, I did. I did, uh, constitutional law, uh, civil liberties and, of course, always American national government which is also one of my favorites.

BARKER: Yeah. Now, Dave, as you may recall we did an awful lot of teaching at those days, uh, five courses per semester.

HAZEL: That's right.

BARKER: Uh, and of course that usually meant two to three preparations; 18:00most of the time, three preparations.

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: This is right. Uh, as a result of that kind--and that experience, I'm pretty certain was fairly uniform at the other institutions, uh, where you had, uh, worked prior to, uh, attending Southern.

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: Usually the five course was pretty standard there, and because of that there was very little time for you to pursue anything in terms of your research or publication entries. You were busy completing the dissertation, and while it was first--

HAZEL: Well, I, I had completed that at that time, and I did--(clears throat)--publish a couple little articles in rather obscure journals at that time.

BARKER: Okay. You remember what they were?

HAZEL: I have no idea.

BARKER: No idea. No idea. But you mined, you mined them from the dissertation, I assume?

HAZEL: That's right. Yeah.

BARKER: Did you ever think about trying to rework the dissertation into--but that would have been something that some publisher might have 19:00wanted to grab in terms of the legislative effort of the--

HAZEL: Yeah. I thought about it, uh, but again at least for me, uh, the time never seemed to be, uh, ideal because I stayed at Southern one year and then I moved to Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio. When I moved there I was the political science department.

BARKER: That's interesting.

HAZEL: --I had six preparations--

BARKER: A one-man department, a one-man department. Could you then share with us the experience of actually operating in a one-person department?

HAZEL: Uh, it is horrible because I think there are few people who are equally capable in all areas, and in some areas, like comparative government, I had never taken. Uh, other areas like political theory I found fascinating but I found difficult to master well enough to teach. 20:00In addition to that, you have political parties, the presidency, civil liberties, a legislative process and I don't know what else, but there were six preparations.

BARKER: Six preparations. All right.

HAZEL: And at one time I had a hundred and fifty in one class.

BARKER: And that was the introductory class, I assume?

HAZEL: That was American national government.

BARKER: Yeah. Okay. Did the university provide you with any student assistance?

HAZEL: I had one student helper who, uh--

BARKER: Helped you grading papers?

HAZEL: --who could help correct the objective type.

BARKER: But you had to do the reading of the--

HAZEL: Yeah. I had to do the other.

BARKER: That was a pretty demanding, uh--

HAZEL: It was.

BARKER: --situation. How long did you do that, Dave?

HAZEL: Probably for three years.

BARKER: Three years?

HAZEL: And, uh--

BARKER: No opportunity to add anybody, uh, at that time?

HAZEL: Unh-uh.

BARKER: Was that the institution's decision that it did not want to expand, uh, its political science offering?

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HAZEL: I don't think it's a question of its--(clears throat)--not wanting to expand. Uh, you have one of those situations in which we had a combined department of history, political science and geography.

BARKER: Yeah.

HAZEL: And the person who headed it was an historian, so most of the efforts--

BARKER: And the resources. (laughs)

HAZEL: --and the resources went toward the history people and not toward political science and geography.

BARKER: Okay.

HAZEL: So it was two or three years later that I became, uh, chairman of the political science department. I think--

BARKER: And separated them, I assume--

HAZEL: And separated them, yeah.

BARKER: --two or three years later?

HAZEL: Yeah. And, uh, we did eventually have four people, I think, four full-time people--

BARKER: --four full-time people--

HAZEL: --in the political science department.

BARKER: Were there many kids interested in, in majoring in political science or you did more service courses for, uh, the college itself in terms of meeting the distribution requirement?

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HAZEL: Well, surprisingly enough, uh, I think only American national and state and local were a, a part of the, uh, basic--

BARKER: Distribution requirements?

HAZEL: --general education. Uh, we had a lot of, uh, kids who majored in political science, and I must admit that I never told them that. I told them that they could take any major from law school--except possibly music, although once in a while a musician gets in there, too--but, uh, for one reason or another we had a lot of kids who wanted to go to law school and they chose to major in political science.

BARKER: Which is fairly traditional although, you're right, any major will allow them to get in law school, but a lot of people do it, uh, uh, through the political science major. All right.

HAZEL: And, and we were successful in getting a lot of them into a great varieties of law schools throughout the country.

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BARKER: Um-hm. This is very good. Do you recall any of them who decided they wanted to be like you, an academic political scientist and go on through and, and enroll in a doctoral program?

HAZEL: Uh, we had a couple. Uh, I, I guess I had one who probably finished at Ohio State last year. Um, a few years earlier, uh, we had a, a girl who got her Ph.D. in political science. Uh, most of them did not go on for a doctorate. They either got their master's and went into teaching or, or some worked with the legislature.

BARKER: A few years ago, I ran into a young lady who lived in Xenia right here named Calendar who did a Ph.D. at Ohio State and was teaching at the University of Missouri in Columbia. Could she have by any chance, uh, been an undergraduate at Central State or do you real-, 24:00do you recall?

HAZEL: She could have been, but she was not one of my students.

BARKER: Yeah. Not one of your students. I see. Um-hm. All right. Now, Dave, after having chaired that department for a number of years and at least tried to build it up, uh, you then were tapped to move into administration, as I recall. Is that right?

HAZEL: Um-hm. That's right.

BARKER: Then you moved to the College of Arts and Sciences as a dean.

HAZEL: That's right. Uh, I did that in, uh, 1971, I guess.

BARKER: Um-hm. 1971. Okay. Now as a dean, uh, I am sure that you had to look at all the departments in your college, but, uh, was there any, uh, attempt at trying to, uh, extend further resources to the political science department that you had left?

HAZEL: That's a rather difficult one.

BARKER: (laughs) Well, I'm sure you have to look, look after the interests of all departments as a dean, and, uh, you left, I assume, 25:00four people there.

HAZEL: Let's put it this way. Yes, but, uh, I never gave up teaching, myself. One of the requirements--

BARKER: Oh, you continued to teach a course.

HAZEL: --was that I had to teach one course every quarter, and at that time we had two six-week summer sessions and that meant I had a different course each six weeks in the summer. So the summer which is supposed to be an easier time was more difficult. I never worked so hard in my life to get it into one session as opposed to two and finally did.

BARKER: Yeah. Now in the two session then, if you were to teach let's say an introductory constitutional law focusing on the federal system in the first six weeks then you would have to teach, say, constitutional rights and liberties in the second six weeks. So that meant two different preparations for that time when, uh, generally you would be teaching just one course if at all, and, uh, some administrators teach as a desire to stay acclimated with their 26:00particular fields and they do it by choice.

HAZEL: Yeah, and they made me one course a year.

BARKER: But am I understanding you that you had to do it as a matter of--

HAZEL: I had to do it.

BARKER: --job requirement?

HAZEL: That's right.

BARKER: Yeah. This is a very interesting arrangement indeed. All right. And from there you, uh, stayed until you decided to retire?

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: Yeah. Um-hm. Okay. As you look back over your political science experience which has been in institutions of learning what we would call, which we call now, uh, which we label as historically black institutions--

HAZEL: Institutions. That's right.

BARKER: --uh, HBI--HBCs rather and HBUs. I think that's the Latin terminology I had heard. As you look back over it, uh, what would you consider to be your best experience in dealing with Tuskegee and dealing with Prairie View and dealing with Southern and dealing with Central State?

HAZEL: I, I would say the best experience was Southern University. Uh, 27:00I think no comparison between that and the others possibly with the exception of, uh, Tuskegee, although I sometimes thought that Tuskegee had built a reputation which it was living on after its peak had passed. Uh, for example, at the time I taught at Tuskegee which would have been from, uh--hmm, what years did I teach at Tuskegee--1946, '47, 1949 through '53, uh, I did not think it was the school that Southern was which I went to in 1957.

BARKER: Um-hm. That's very interesting indeed. It's interesting because here was an institution, a department which started out as a one-man operation with Rodney Higgins, and that's where I was introduced to political science in 1946 with Rodney Higgins. And 28:00then I was added to the staff as he began building this, uh, and of course Jewel Prestage took, took off with the department after she became chairman, uh, around in the early sixties. And you'd be probably interested to know that Jewel is attempting to get at least Gloria Braxton, who chairs that department now, is attempting to get about six or seven hundred people who come through that department, a large number of them have completed Ph.D.s and are working in, uh, uh, colleges all over the country.

HAZEL: Oh, that's interesting.

BARKER: And it's interesting to see how this developed over a period of forty-two years, uh, from the time when Rodney Higgins--forty-four years rather when Rodney Higgins actually showed up there in '46 to begin a department.

HAZEL: That's when he started? In '46?

BARKER: Started in '46. This is right.

29:00

HAZEL: Oh, I see. Then he hasn't been there that long.

BARKER: Yeah. He, he died much too early--

HAZEL: Yes. He did.

BARKER: --as you well know.

HAZEL: Yeah.

BARKER: This is right. Dave, we've had some interesting discussion about your academic career. Did you find time to get involved with the American Political Science Association of the, uh, Midwest, here in the Midwest or the southern while you were in the southern area?

HAZEL: Uh, I was a part of the national organization for several years, and as a matter of fact, I guess for three years I served on their Committee of Ethics.

BARKER: Um-hm. Um-hm.

HAZEL: Uh, again one of the unfortunate things about many of the positions I have held is that there never was any money in it for travel, and when you can't go to the meetings you kind of lose interest.

BARKER: Yeah. Yeah. This is true. Okay. All right. Uh, a word or so about, uh, your family. Uh, I, uh, just casually talk with me about, 30:00uh, the youngsters. Uh, a number of years ago one of the things that a lot of academics to do kind of unwind on the weekend is to watch college football, uh, either in person or, uh, watching it on the tube, and, uh, I remember, uh, a number of years ago, uh, watching the Ohio State Buckeyes, uh, play Big Ten football. And there was a particular interesting thing when it was mentioned that playing, uh, split end position--I believe a receiver of some type--was a youngster under Woody Hayes named David Hazel, and I remarked to a colleague that this has to be the son of, uh, a fellow I had, uh, as a colleague years ago.

HAZEL: That is correct.

BARKER: Yeah. And why, why don't you tell us something about your youngsters, uh--

HAZEL: Well, uh, I suppose David is the most well-known and even now 31:00since he played his last Rose Bowl game, uh, January 1st, 1975, people are always asking about him and what he's doing. Uh, he has become a medical doctor and works in the emergency room in Florence, Ohio, although he prefers to live in the city of Detroit where the action is. Uh, I have another son--(clears throat)--who graduated from Brown University, uh, who majored in applied math who is a software engineer for Digital, and he lives in Massachusetts. Uh, my oldest daughter who graduated from, uh, Eastern Michigan University, she is a teacher. Uh, as a matter of fact she's curriculum director of the Upward Bound Program at Central Washington University in Bellingham, Washington, and my youngest daughter who graduated from Southern Illinois University 32:00and Rutgers Law School practices law in Massachusetts. So I have two on the East Coast, one on the West Coast and one in Detroit.

BARKER: And the youngest daughter took something fairly close to what her daddy was doing?

HAZEL: That's correct. As a matter of fact, I taught Kim constitutional law, and she blames me for it.

BARKER: (laughs) Well it--

HAZEL: One summer she took a course in constitutional law at Central.

BARKER: And that turned her on to, to becoming a lawyer? Yeah. That's indeed very interesting indeed.

HAZEL: Uh, and of course, uh, Kim also is a rather talented musician. She started off really as a music major, but she found out that if she was going to play serious piano that you have to be so close to the top to make a living--(clears throat)--and she was not willing to put that much effort in it. And so she changed to pre-law.

BARKER: Now, Dave, you could not necessarily leave academic matters in the office because your spouse is an academician herself.

33:00

HAZEL: That's correct.

BARKER: And do you want to tell us a little something about the kind of relationship as the political scientist on the one hand and the English professor on the other?

HAZEL: Well, we, we have discussions of one kind or another frequently. We disagree sometimes, uh, rather heatedly and so, uh, and, and sometimes we agree, but we do, uh, discuss, uh, academic, uh, life and, uh, what we like about it and what we don't like about it. I guess that's about it.

BARKER: It's very interesting because I think your career kind of mirrors the development of black participation in the academic arena with the political science discipline. Uh, you, uh, got started, uh, in the, uh, forties and ended up in the, doing the, completing the Ph.D. in the fifties, uh, and, uh, your career expands almost to the, 34:00uh, in the late eighties and almost to the nineties. And that, it's what one would kind of point out as the major period of development of blacks entering the political science discipline, uh, and becoming more involved in the activities of the American Political Science Association and political science as a discipline in our colleges and universities. This ends the interview with Dr. David Hazel, uh, which is done in his residence, uh, in Xenia, Ohio, uh, just off the campus of Central State University where he spent the last portion of his career as a professor of political science and as dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. My name is Twiley Barker, uh, from the 35:00University of Illinois at Chicago who has been doing the interviewing.

[End of interview.]

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