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SMOOT: Dr. Costich, to begin this morning, if you would, tell me a little bit about your background, where you were born, what it was like growing up, why you became interested in going into dentistry, dental surgery, et cetera.

COSTICH: Well, I was born in Rochester, New York, uh, and my family lived in uh, a house on Mount Pleasant Park, off Plymouth Avenue. Uh, we lived upstairs and I had an aunt and uncle that lived downstairs and--the first three years I spent there. Uh, I remember very little about it. There are a few things that stand out and then of course, photo albums, uh, make you think you can remember a lot of things that went on. The uh--we moved to Brockport, New York, which is about twenty miles west of Rochester, when I was three and uh, Brockport is the home of now the State University of New York at Brockport, but in 1:00those days it was the Brockport Normal School, a three year teachers college and we lived on College Street, just a little ways from the school. Uh, we had uh, a big, old house, it was built around--started around 1832 and uh, the New York Central Falls Road branch ran through the back yard, about five hundred feet from the back door and the New York State Barge Canal went through the center of town and all the houses on the street were big, old houses--uh, single family dwellings--and uh, it used to be fun to run down to the canal and ride up and down on the bridge when the boats came through or to run the other direction and get underneath the railroad bridge to hear the roar of the trains coming overhead. We had teachers living with us, uh, that taught at the normal school. Uh, two of them were there--uh, 2:00Rose Martin and Mary Gwinn and uh, I had a sister who was born, uh, when we lived in Brockport and her name is Rosemary, which I had a hard time getting used to, I always called her Rose and Mary (Smoot laughs) and I'm not sure whether she was named after them or how it came about. But we uh--we had a good time there, there were a lot of kids on the street and uh, running through the back yards, uh, playing hide and seek in houses that uh, were huge. A couple of the families had maids, uh, that wore little white caps and black uniforms and uh, I didn't understand that that was class at the time, that was just the way they were. One lady on the street had an old Baker electric automobile that uh, had a tiller handle, which she rode around with. The man next door had a horse and drove out to his farm every morning. The man across the street had a team of horses and he drove out to 3:00his farm every day. Uh, the man on the corner ran the--the--the local drugstore, Mr. Dobson, and had a son who was the commander of, I think it was the S-9, a submarine that was hit in Boston Harbor and sunk and his son was lost and I remember that day because uh, Mr. Dobson was pacing in his yard all day that--that day and my mother commented about it frequently, um, at the time and afterwards. Um, I remember when Lindbergh flew the Atlantic and I'd just gotten a bicycle and all of us were Lucky Lindy zooming up and down the street with our arms spread out--and, um, spending a lot of time at the dentist. My teeth, uh, apparently required a lot of work and uh, so we went to one dentist, 4:00uh, I think it was Dr. Moore, who had been there quite some time and another dentist lived on the corner of our street, old Dr. Gooding- -who was very old and had an office that was very old and filled with antiques. He had a fantastic collection of antiques and swords and guns, and his grandson, uh, moved to live with him there when uh, the depression came along, and uh, his son-in-law lost his job and the family--like happens today--moved back in and he had a beautiful formal garden in back and he would let his grandson have all of these old six- shooters and things like that, so we played cowboys in the back yard, spent a lot of time down in his office looking at some of the stuff that he had there and uh, really wasn't interested in the dental part of it except that I was always intrigued by the characteristic smell of the office. Uh, later on a new dentist came to town--Dr. Botten, 5:00who was uh, about, I guess, close to my father's age, uh, and he began taking care of me and I figured that I'd had, at least every six months seven cavities that had to be filled and I spent a lot of time in his office and he spent a lot of time talking to me and uh, he eventually moved into Dr. Gooding's house. Dr. Gooding died and the house was sold, everybody moved away and Dr. Botten bought that house and lived there. So the closeness, of, having the family, uh, right there on the corner and the contact, lots of conversations came up about what are you going to do when you grow up and I had a grandfather who was a lawyer and I'd talked about being a lawyer for years, and um, my father kind of discouraged that because uh, he thought there were too many lawyers--even back then there were too many lawyers (Smoot laughs). 6:00Uh, when we uh, (clears throat) finally decided, about the time I was in the eighth grade, that uh, dentistry looked good and I just made up my mind I was going to be a dentist and uh, from that time on that was it, I was going to be a dentist and I was going to go back to Brockport, New York and I was going to be the best doggone dentist that ever hit town there and uh--I was impressed with Dr. Botten, because uh, not only was he, uh, a nice person to visit with, but he was always talking about the newer things that were coming along and--and talking about what would be nice, if we could have this or if we could get to that--and uh, so uh, I stuck with the dentistry all the way through. Uh, when uh--my father got on the school board in town--and that was uh, uh, kind of interesting because three doors down the street from us was P. A. Blossom, the editor of the local newspaper, who had been 7:00on the school board for years and uh, I guess there was unhappiness about him and my father ran against him and uh, my father won. Uh, that created some real unhappiness in P. A. Blossom; he never really recovered from getting beaten and he didn't like my father. Uh, there were no overt kind of things, but his animosity hung on to the point that when my father died, he had an obnoxious heading on the--in the paper. My father uh, got to be fairly prominent in the community and was--was well known and uh, he printed a--a bad heading when the paper first came out--it came out every Thursday. Uh, I think his son, who also worked with him on the paper, pulled it back and a new--they- -reprinted a new one. But uh, it was that kind of a small town, you 8:00know, where politics were important and uh, who you were and what you did seemed to have a lot of influence. Uh, but we had a lot of fun growing up there because it was a small town. And we had big barns in the backyards to play in and uh, they still delivered ice and we could s--go out and get ice chips off the back of the truck and then the guys came around selling vegetables, uh, hucksters selling vegetables, and the bakery delivered to the door, uh--all that kind of stuff that has faded away and doesn't uh, doesn't exist anymore. There were always good memories of all that and the nice part is that they built a new high school when my father was there and uh, when we uh, started high school--my first year in high school we had uh, a class in civics--or some kind of social studies course--and I was assigned to a seat to sit 9:00with Marie Zimmerman, who had come from a rural school, uh, in Adams Basin, which was between--here's Rochester, Spencerport and Brockport and Adams Basin is between Spencerport and Brockport and that had been a two-room school there and then she had come into the seventh and eighth grade in the consolidated set-up, but I had gone to the training school; that was the class act in town (Smoot laughs), to go to the training school--uh, and uh, Marie--then was the first time I met her there--as it turned out we eventually got married, uh, some years later and uh--but that's where I first ran into her. Well the kids that I grew up, uh, with--this was pre World War II--so there were a lot of kids that were lost in World War II. Uh, I had some fun events because of that, one kid whose father was a physician, Johnny Hazing, lived 10:00down at the end of the street in a gigantic house that's now a funeral parlor, uh, with rooms to rent upstairs I guess--uh, he eventually went to West Point and when he was graduating uh, from West Point he had met a girl and was getting married. Graduation that year was on--was on, uh, the uh, day they invaded, D-Day, the day they invaded Europe. At that time I was in dental school at the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. I was invited to the wedding and uh, at that time we had the ASTP program and the V-12 program sponsored by the Army and Navy supporting education of people to come in and fill up spots that were needed. Uh, so the--I was a private first-class in dental school and to go to the wedding, uh, I went out and bought an officers uniform- -tropical worsted (Smoot laughs) because the--this kind of uh, chino, 11:00shirts and trousers, looked pretty crummy, I had the epaulets taken off the shoulders so they couldn't accuse me of imitating an officer (Smoot laughs), put all the patches and stripes, everything I would have liked, but it was a pressed, fancy looking uniform, got on the train in Philadelphia about four o'clock in the morning and took off and when I got off, Penn Station in New York, the papers were on the street that the invasion had started. Took the ferry boat across to the Weehawken and then caught the train up to West Point, got off there and uh, I was a little bit frightened when I first got there because I'd never seen so much brass in my life. I had never seen a general before and there were one-star, two-star and three-star generals walking around, enough colonels to make a flock of eagles. (Smoot laughs) It was just unbelievable. And I uh, walked up to where I was going to meet his family, his mother and father were there and others were there and 12:00uh, met them, they showed me around, uh, I got a room in Haverstraw, a town nearby, for the couple of nights, but it was a couple of days--uh, well, it was going to be I guess one night and uh, found out that he was sick and in the hospital there and uh--graduation day was the day I arrived. Uh, General Eisenhower's son was graduating in that class and uh, there were a lot of big names, uh--but I met with his family and their friends and we--they toured me around and they showed me West Point and took me up on top of the hill where there's the reservoir, opened up the trunk of their car with their portable bar and mixed the cocktails (Smoot laughs) and there I stood drinking cocktails in an officers uniform at West Point with all that brass around me. It was uh--it was fun, but it was also a little distressing.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: Uh, when it came time for the wedding, uh, which was the next 13:00day--they used straws to see who got married in what order--uh, the next day, uh, his wedding was to be some time in the--about two o'clock in the afternoon and they arranged to have one of the chaplains--and they had multiple chaplains, they were running a wedding every fifteen minutes in the chapel--and uh, one chaplain would dash over to the hospital, they had an empty ward there, a long hallway with curtains around--could be drawn around each bed, so they drew all the curtains to close off the beds, put him in a chair down at the end of the thing and there was the chaplain and the people came walking in and uh, I was the--there were four ushers--classmates of his who were new second lieutenants--and one of them didn't show up, so I was pressed into service because I had a uniform on, to act as an usher. But the one thing they couldn't do was let me wear a saber, I couldn't 14:00have a sword, so they put it on a bed back behind a curtain and when the bride and groom--they took John--Johnny back up to the end so he could walk down with the bride-- and when they came down we were to put those swords up in the air over them--and I'd seen this in movies and pictures like that--so I just reached back and grabbed that sword and I flipped it and I held it up in the air. The other guys whipped them out of their sheaths, and held them up. They got down to where we were and they stopped and I looked at them and--and I looked over and John was saying, "turn the damn thing over." (Smoot laughs) He had--I had put it up with the cutting edge down and it needed to be up, so I flipped it over and they went on with the wedding and we had a big time and we had a reception at the Fair Hotel; I took the train on back. Well, it--it was kids like this, another one that uh, we were with who ended in the state uh, military--in the state department as 15:00a U.S. Information Officer, traveled around the world. He's retired now and lives in New Zealand and uh, three or four years ago when my wife and I were in Australia for a meeting we went over to New Zealand and visited him there and we went back a couple of years ago for a fiftieth--fifty-fifth, I don't know--fiftieth or something reunion from high school--I'd never been to one of those before--can't say that I'm thrilled nor would I go back to one again (Smoot laughs), maybe at ten years or fifteen years it might be all right, you go back and look at those people at fifty years, the only people that look reasonable in that are you and your wife (Smoot laughs) and the rest of them look terrible! So uh, I left town when I graduated from high school there and went to Colgate University, uh, which is uh, between Utica and Syracuse, New York, but about forty miles south of it. It- was-at that time a liberal arts college, with an enrollment of one thousand and uh, 16:00had a roommate the first year from Chicago, who had gone to Evanston High and a guy coming out of Brockport High School and meeting up with somebody from Evanston High School, uh, and a lot of people from prep schools and places all over; it was a challenge to really get the work done because they had had good preparation for college. Mine was not that bad, but I hadn't been prepared as vigorously as they had. I don't think there were more than uh, seventy or eighty kids in our graduating class from high school and uh, not very many of us went to college. Uh, so my (laughs)--my first roommate turned out to be an achondroplastic dwarf. He uh--uh, I'm not tall, five-seven, and this- -top of this guy's head was below my chin, had a tremendous--big head, 17:00big trunk--torso, but short arms and legs and uh--he eventually ended up as a pediatrician. Uh, and uh--

SMOOT: Hmm.

COSTICH: --another year I had a roommate from Syracuse, Scott Bardwall; Scott, was killed in World War II. A number of the people I've known and friends uh, we lost because of World War II. Uh, graduate--I didn't graduate from college that year, uh, at the end of three years uh, I applied for uh, dental school. That was in uh--I went to uh, college in '39, so this would have made it 1941. Uh, I started applying and uh, (laughs) yeah it was interesting that year, because everybody was in the service, and because I came from a small town, because, uh, we knew the people in town and because my father knew the man who was chairman of the draft board, uh, who worked for the 18:00department store that my uncle now managed, who had lived downstairs when we lived in Mount Pleasant Park, he was very kind and I didn't have to go. At that time you had to register for the draft at age twenty-one, and uh, I had uh, not reached twenty-one yet. Uh, I was twenty-one when I went to dental school, but I didn't get called for the draft and uh, the schools that year were afraid that probably this might be the last class they would ever get to enroll. So, uh, I applied to Michigan, they wrote back and said they were only taking in- state students. I applied to the University of Buffalo and my father and I went up to look at Buffalo and he wasn't impressed. I wasn't that thrilled with it, but it was close to home and I would have been able to get back and forth to home uh, and uh--still, uh, it wasn't 19:00the greatest. And I wrote to Pennsylvania and applied there and in the--the statements they'd just asked for application forms, I didn't need any financial help and uh, golly, got a letter back accepting me to the class and would I kindly fill out the enclosed forms and send them in, which I did, and uh, never had seen the place, never had been there, uh, and they started school that year in July. That--usually schools had always started in December, that year they started in July and they switched to a three year--three calendar years, rather than four academic years. We did four academic in three calendar. So, in mid July I took my suitcase and went down and got on the train and took off for Philadelphia. Um, I had a cousin who had a boyfriend who was in the service, stationed at the Philadelphia Navy Yard, he was an officer there. So I went by way of New York, met him and we went to Philadelphia and uh, checked in at the Normandy Hotel and the 20:00next morning went over and registered for dental school and one of the guys in the line registering turned, looked familiar and it turned out that he was in my class at Colgate. So (laughs) he'd never been there before either, neither one of us knew the town; we went out and found a place and uh, were roommates that first year in Philadelphia, living over at uh, I think it was 3946 Pine Street, uh, a row house, uh, with nice, white steps coming off the front, brick pavement, quaint, looked- -it looked nice. The whole section of town was rather attractive, still had big sycamore trees on uh, the streets--uh, and started dental school. The uh--my father was--was--wanted to check real hard. He said, "You're sure you want to do this now? One more year, you know and you could graduate and be a chemist," but I uh, said, no, I'd go on and go to dental school. So uh, the dental school started and they created 21:00the ASTP program and everybody who was in dental school had to apply for uh, time in the--to go in the service. And it had its advantages. Shoot, I could--I'd get all my uh, tuition, everything paid--books, room, board, the whole shootin' match. It was a bit annoying, we had to march to class and we had to go for drill three afternoons a week and annoying things like that, but still, you were now in uniform which avoids some of the--you felt harassed a little bit if you weren't in uniform because everybody was and--lots of people were going. Uh, but--uh and--uh, you know, I could go off to Johnny Hazing's wedding dressed up--I had another friend whose grandfather lived next door to us on College Street in Brockport, Mort Winscott, he got married and 22:00I got to go to his wedding, didn't feel uncomfortable taking the train to New York--he married a girl from Long Island--uh, and uh, school went along and I enjoyed it. Uh, I liked the uh--as I got into it I--I really didn't know what dentistry was about really, other than to be a dental patient and what Dr. Botten told me. When we got into school and I began to see things, uh, I enjoyed doing everything that there was to do. Uh, it was fun doing it and I enjoyed doing the restorative work, but it wasn't really challenging that--the challenging part was oral diagnosis, uh, trying to determine things and oral surgery was more interesting. So uh, I took every opportunity I could to spend extra time in oral surgery and began to find out also that uh, there were other areas of dentistry to be interested in. Uh, I spent a lot 23:00of time studying oral medicine--oral diagnosis and I used to annoy some of the guys 'cause they liked to go out on the town or run around and that--and that didn't particularly appeal to me and uh, so I'd be home studying sometimes and uh, that was annoying to a lot of them. You're just trying to get ahead and you're trying to (Smoot laughs) it--I really wasn't, I just enjoyed what I was doing. Uh, I had a roommate the--there--uh, three roommates actually, uh--that I've--we've stayed fairly close with, one was Harold Watkins from Amarillo, Texas--called Tex, naturally. Uh, it turned out that uh, he had a brother who was a physician, another brother who was a veterinarian and a sister who was still in high school, uh, and he was just one of the nicest people you'd ever want to meet and uh, the shock of my life came when it came income tax time the first year we were living together and he was 24:00filling out an income tax form and I (laughs)--I could--never knew a person my age that filled out an income tax form. It turned out that uh, the Phillips Refining Company had built a refinery on some of their property in Texas, and things that worked out for them and they had land in Colorado, the panhandle area, and uh, the father had sort of divided stuff up around as an early way of dispersing the wealth and keep the tax down and Tex had to file taxes on a lot of cattle in his name. Uh, he had a Model A Ford that he had uh, acquired somehow or other and all of us managed to get our A stickers from home, uh, so we could get gas for that thing and we had transportation around town, uh, so we did get to travel around Philadelphia a bit. The uh, Ford got a vapor lock quite often and so we carried a gallon of gas in the rumble seat and five gallons of water. Uh, whenever we got a vapor lock we'd 25:00jump out--it was like a Chinese fire drill (Smoot laughs) one guy would up the hood, the next guy was pouring the gas in the carburetor and the next guy was pouring water all over it to cool the thing down and then we'd fire it up and go on with the next horse trough we came to 'cause there were horse troughs everywhere, fill the five gallon can with water again and go on. Now if one was to go downtown Philadelphia, where the streets are narrow and get on the street car tracks and wait to see when you'd get a vapor lock. When you did then you stopped all the street cars, you jammed up the traffic and uh, it was fun and games (Smoot laughs) to--to fool around like that. Uh, another one was Bob Gilbert, who uh, eventually married one of the hygienists that was in the class there. Uh, my first experience with a uh, disaster on an airplane was when Bob Gilbert and his wife were returning from a vacation trip in the Caribbean, the plane landed in Baltimore--it was a, uh, a Pan Am flight--and uh, then went on--it was going on to 26:00Philadelphia, from there. Uh, between Baltimore and Philadelphia the thing blew up in the air and both of them were killed --

SMOOT: Hmm.

COSTICH: --and uh, this happened some years later, but it--it was kind of a shock to read in the paper, just casually scanning down the list and suddenly find that these people were on that plane. Uh, another one, Carl Newheart, uh, went back to Hokendauqua; Bob Gilbert was from Allentown; Carl Newheart was from Hokendauqua. Uh, we had another friend Roger Barton, who eventually ended up teaching, I think, the University of North Carolina Dental School, he from Catasauqua and Gil Griesbach was from Robesonia and all these guys had terrible accents 27:00from the Pennsylvania Dutch, but the people from the Redding area would always accuse the people from the Allentown area of having worse accents and so I got to travel around that area and see all those people and those places in that time. In dental school probably the person who uh, was uh--I guess the strongest influence on me in dental school was uh, Dr. Burkett, who was at that time chairman of--of the oral--oral diagnosis, oral medicine and eventually he wrote a book on the subject. Uh, at that time there was no textbook and uh, I looked back at my notes when his first edition of the book came out and hell, he could have transcribed my notes I think and had the textbook. But he was a hardnosed guy. Uh, if you went to check with him and you had him check off a patient you'd examined and there was something in there that you had not noted and he saw it, he wouldn't check it off, but he wouldn't tell you either, he'd tell you to go back and examine the 28:00patient. And he'd keep you working at that for--it might be an hour or an hour and a half before, out of deference to the patient, he'd finally tell you what it was. And uh, he uh--I think that--that--the people in our class that had the chance--or the opportunity to knife somebody, he would have been the guy (both laugh) that they--they would have knifed. But I--I--I liked it. Uh, it was fun with the uh--the way he did things. And I think some of the way I do things now are based on sort of the way he did it--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: --making you find it out--figure it out and use just the knowledge that you had to reason out what the possible answer could be to a question. Uh, when I finished dental school--uh, the Army discharged us just before we graduated and the uh, (laughs)--that was for the convenience of the government because some mathematician 29:00had figured out that there were going to be more dentists than they actually needed and so my last months in dental school I was back to a civilian again, and then they discovered they had made a mistake and they had miscalculated and uh, they did need us, but they--they weren't about to admit that error so we were all informed that we would have to apply for commissions in the Navy. Now, getting into the Army was not easy for me. Uh, they were not taking people with bad eye sight and my eyes were something like twenty two-hundred or twenty three-hundred and uh, when we all went to take the physical exam--over at the--the--some warehouse on--uh, off Market Street in Philadelphia near the 30th Street Station, the line was tre--long, way out of--recruits, people had been drafted and going through that exam and uh, one of my roommates got in the line early in the morning and 30:00he copied the eye chart and when--when he came out I got the eye chart from him and then I got in line and spent the time memorizing the eye chart as we went in. When I got to the guy that's going to look at the glasses--when they asked do you have any allergies I said no and they asked--uh, when they saw my glasses they--the civilian guy doing the exams took my glasses and asked me to read the chart. I thought, well, he knows I've got glasses on, I'll skip the twenty-twenty line and just recite down to the next line. I couldn't even see the top letter on the chart (Smoot laughs). Uh, when he--I looked down and he had a gage that he was putting on my lenses that was recording--by that gage he could tell what the curvature of the lenses were, he'd get an idea of what the prescription was, then noting it on the chart. I got to the end and they had some captain in the military, a physician, 31:00looking at that and he got to my eye thing and he looked at what the guy had written down, and he looked at what they'd written down from what I did and he looked up and he said, "You can't even see that chart." And I said, "Well, I read it." He said, "You didn't read it." He said to the sergeant, "Take him back and have him do it again." We went back and I thought well, shoot, I don't know, I'll--I'll pretend to be straining and all that and then I said, "Now, if you want me to I won't strain, I'll just go down"--he said, "Just do it the way you want to do it." So I went half way down this time, I skipped several lines from the bottom. Went back, the guy looks it, he says, "You can't do it, take him back and put up another chart." We went back and they put up another chart, but I happened to see it as they pulled it out to go down and the first letter on the chart was a capital A and he hung it up, I looked down there, I couldn't see the capital A (both laugh) but I said, "Well, to tell you the truth, the only letter I can see is the top letter, it's an A. He went back and the guy said, "He 32:00did it again, go back and put up another chart and don't let him see the chart, keep it covered." We went back and they put up a chart and I couldn't see it at all, so I said, "Well, it's--nothing is very clear there" and the guy said, "Well, just walk up a little ways until you do see it." So, squinting and squeezing my eyeballs with my eyelids every way I could, I went forward and two letters below the--the top letter came into sight, they were three straight up prongs and then three more straight up prongs. Well, I knew that chart. That chart has a capital E at the top and then it has an E with them pointing up and an E with 'em pointing down and I read that right at that point, even though I still hadn't seen the top one, my astigmatism screwed up the top one. The guy went back and he said, "He never saw that chart, I didn't let him see it and that's what he did." And the guy looks at it, he said "I don't believe you can see it," but he says, "You're trying so damn hard, we'll let you sign a waiver and see if they'll 33:00take you on that basis" and that's--I got in on that basis. Well, when the Navy wanted us to come for a physical, I had been a civilian, I had applied for a residency at Strom Memorial Hospital in Rochester, I had been accepted and I wasn't about to loose that residency, so when I went down to take the physical, like they said you had to do, which I don't believe was really so, but they made us believe that we wouldn't graduate if we didn't take that physical, I looked up at the eye chart and I couldn't see it and the guy said, "Well, walk over till you see it." I stalked off at a brisk pace and he said, "Wait a minute." He came up and took me by the arm and we walked down until there was a whole lot of furniture in this corridor at the end and I said, "I still can't see the chart." I said, "Are you sure it's up there?" The guy said, "Yeah, it's up there." He said, "Wait a minute, I'll crawl over there to get the chart and I'll come back with it." And so when I could very clearly with absolutely no doubt determine that 34:00the top letter was an E, I told him that and he said, fine. When they wanted allergies I listed orchard grass, ragweed (Smoot laughs), all the things you could thing of, and uh, they wouldn't take me in the Navy. So I went on with my residency at the University of Rochester in oral surgery, which is a--a wild arrangement, because this is ni---now 1945 and uh, it's hard to get people in residency programs, uh, everybody's off in the service. The man who had been in--in charge of it, the oral surgeon who had been running that program had died and the gentleman who was running the plastic surgery service, wanted to capture what was in the oral surgery--at that time, Dr. Wallace, who had died, uh, was doing cleft palates, uh, Dr. Forrest Young, who was chairman of the plastic division of the department, wanted to take 35:00over everything and so they had redone it and they had hired a general practitioner to be the ch---the director of the dental part and they changed the name from oral surgery to dental surgery and they were trying in every way they could to downgrade it. The person who was ahead of me, and there was only one person in--in front of me, uh, had been there the year before, uh, by the time October of that year came around, he quit and left, and so there I was, uh, four months or so into the program, nobody ahead of me, a general practitioner, who came three days a week in the noon hour to see if everything was going all right and the only salvation for me was the fact that Marie, my wife, was working in uh--on pediatrics at that time. Now I'd gotten married when uh, I was a senior dental student, in my last year, and Marie had 36:00completed her nursing program. And in March of that year, 1945, I got a telephone call from her one day and she said uh--we'd talked about getting married when I got through school--and she said, uh, "We've got to get married." And I said, "What do you mean we've got to get married?" She said, "If we don't get married, I'm going to be drafted." The Congress--uh, the House had passed a bill, which would require all nurses who were single on the fifteenth of March 1945, to register for a draft. And uh, so I said, "Well, we got to do this," so I--we rushed home, her father knew the town clerk in the town of Ogden, where Adams Basin is located, we got application for a license on a Sunday, uh, 37:00one--another one of my friends, uh, Art Collins' father, Dr. Collins, who's a physician in town and he's one of the kids in the group we played with, he drew blood for us right away so we could run it to the lab. Marie's sister worked in the lab at the hospital and they ran that thing through fast and we had the license and everything ready and got married on a Wednesday, the fourteenth of March (Smoot laughs) and uh, the--the Senate refused to pass the bill (both laugh) and they never did draft a nurse. So, uh, anyway, I claim to have been a war- -war groom. Uh, Marie was working in pediatrics and uh, I would run up to her whenever I had a problem or--to find out what to do. I had no hospital experience other than to have visited the hospital to observe things, but not to have worked in it. The oral surgery department at 38:00uh, Pennsylvania had uh, Dr. Ivy, Robert Ivy, who was a world renowned uh, surgeon uh, and he had--and he--Dr. Ivy incidentally had been the first dental intern in the United States. He had uh--he had an uncle, Dr. Cryer (laughs) who taught at Penn and we had a lot of instruments that called Cryer forceps and Cryer elevators and he developed them. Uh, his uncle had managed to set up the internship--the first dental internship at Philadelphia General Hospital and Dr. Ivy got it. He later went back and got--went to medical school and then went on and became uh, famous as a plastic surgeon and as an oral surgeon. Uh, Dr. Curtis, was his associate, uh, we had Dr. uh, Gunther, who was uh--taught the routine kind of oral surgery, and then we had Dr. Dorrance, who taught us the specialized kinds of things and Dorrance 39:00is the fellow that developed and invented the push-back procedure for correcting cleft palates--and was not a dentist--the others were all dentists and physicians, but uh, Dorrance was a plastic surgeon. His family owned most of the stock in Campbell's soup. He drove a big car, chauffer-driven, came to school to lecture, uh, told us about how if he saw people with cleft lips or palates on the street, he would go up and if they would agree to come to the hospital he would take care of them because he was trying to accumulate patients. He'd pay the--the bills, which I guess it was no big deal for him, and then he would tell us how during the uh, Roosevelt era--era, in the early days uh, of Roosevelt, he would agree to do this for these people provided they would promise to vote for any candidate running against Franklin D. Roosevelt. (Smoot laughs) He was a rabid Republican. Whether they did or didn't, I don't know, but that was his story in class. He would pick some 40:00of us up at lunchtime, we'd have to march to lunch at noon, he would sneak some of us into his chauffer driven car, whip us down and let us out at the Polestra, which was then the dining hall for the University of Pennsylvania. So they were interesting characters, uh, but didn't teach us anything about how to work in a hospital. Uh, Marie and I lived in an apartment, was in a house and a gi--girl, Delores Coleman, lived across the hall from us and Delores was the head nurse in the operating room and so she helped me out a lot when I'd get up there and I didn't know what to do and uh, she would tell me what to do and guide me and Marie was helping me out with what to do, uh, as far as routine me things in the hospital and uh, the lady who was the head anes-- anesthetist--they didn't have anesthesiologists then--she, uh, was kind 41:00of an austere person, but she was very friendly with me because I had read that there was a procedure where you put a tube in the patients throat and pack the airway off--endotracheal tubes-- and I wondered if we could do that. "Well," she said, "Yeah, that would be great," and she controlled the schedule for the operating room and we didn't have, uh, Medicare and Medicaid and all those things, but there were an awful lot of patients that got taken care of, admitted to the hospital and done and I don't know, by what technique all of these things were paid for, nobody ever told me I had to consider that and I would admit anybody that came along. By having them come to the emergency room at six o'clock in the morning, get a quick physical, go to the operating room, have their teeth removed or whatever needed to be done, go back to the emergency room and in the afternoon go home. Uh, and, uh, the anesth--the nurse anesthetist wanted to teach her other nurse 42:00anesthetists how to put down endotracheal tubes, it was not taught to those people, and so the more patients that she could have with this kind of a--of uh, need, the happier she was, so I'd have to just--all kinds of things in the operating room. And then I got, uh--I--I put on an air of confidence, uh, and I started attending the plastic clinic and ear, nose and throat was next door to the oral surgery clinic and I got to know the people in plastic and I got to know the people in ENT, and found out that turf fighting goes on all over the place and they were fighting with each other and didn't--and the chairmens didn't talk to each other (Smoot laughs) and I ended up in the go-between capacity. Uh, a message would--a statement would be made that was a message that obviously needed to be carried to the other place and I'd carry it. 43:00I went back and forth, so that uh, by--in that way I got to work with both of those services a lot and that made up for all the difference of not having a--an oral surgeon as--directing the program I was in. And the other thing was they had a tremendous library and the librarian was a--a typical librarian, uh, she was not the friendliest person, but because I--I used the library a lot and--and requested reprints from the National Medical Library and stuff like that, uh, she became very friendly and helpful and uh, if a problem came up, I'd just run to the library and try and figure out what do you do if we got this kind of a problem, what does it say in the books, and then I'd go back and act like I knew what to do and then--and--and go ahead and do it.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: Uh, it's kind of different from the way things are now (Smoot laughs) but uh--we dealt with a lot of different problems, uh, at that 44:00time.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: So we uh--we moved along with Marie helping me and the librarian helping me, the anesthetist and Delores Coleman I got through that year and uh, decided to stay a second year.

SMOOT: May we pause a moment?

COSTICH: Yes.

[Pause in recording]

COSTICH: And uh, I guess it was uh--oh, let's see, it's bad when you start trying to remember when your kids were born and all, but we uh--uh--our son Randy was born in September of '46, because he's one of the first of the baby boomers and he turns forty this year. Uh, and uh, though Marie had--had to quit work and uh, it was interesting, we didn't have a car at that time. We lived not too far from the 45:00hospital and uh, we walked to the hospital and she was determined that she was going to be in labor before she went, she wasn't going to go--down there in false labor, uh, she didn't want that. So, when she was finally in labor, we walked to the hospital and uh, Randy was born. And about this time I was also discovering that there was an area of research in dentistry. I had graduated from dental school all wrapped up in the clinical delivery side of it and because the war was on and a lot of the people were away in the service and this--total staff from the school went down, uh, you really didn't find out, uh, what there was in the field of research. Um, and at the University of Rochester they had a department, uh, set up, it had originally been the University of Rochester School of Medicine and Dentistry, that George Eastman put up the money for since he had bad teeth, uh, 46:00he would agree to put up money for the school provided there was a dental school. And uh, Dr. Whipple, who came to be the first dean, uh, agreed, but felt that if they were going to have a dental school the dentists had to be as qualified as the--as the physicians and set the admission requirements for dentistry the same as for medicine. And this was at a time when you could go to dental school, uh, with a year of college or in some instances even straight out of high school and dentistry was a three year curriculum. Dr. Botten, who had--who'd been the person that originally got me headed into dentistry had gone to the University of Michigan and while at Michigan, New York State changed the regulations for uh, applications for licenses from three years to four years and Michigan continued to run a three year program and he had to transfer to Pennsylvania to finish in order to--because 47:00they'd gone to a four year early, to get the four years in and uh, I guess that's why I had applied to both Michigan and Pennsylvania. But anyway, he, uh--he--his--he was very partial to--to Pennsylvania. And uh, so uh, when Whipple set these standards, uh, you couldn't find people who would want to spend three years in college and then go to medical school for four years and have to do an internship, uh, that was a--a lot. Uh, to expect anybody who could go into dentistry almost any place in the United States with less time and effort and expense to come to Rochester, uh, was rare. So, uh nobody ever applied and after five years they switched the money over and created what was called the uh--the division of dental research. Uh, you go there and spend a year, uh, still kind of getting your feet on the ground and figuring out what you want to do and where your interests are, and you could go 48:00for a Master's degree or a Ph.D degree or no degree at all, but not for a medical degree.

SMOOT: Hmm.

COSTICH: Now, this money--uh, to set that program up--came from the uh, Rockefeller Foundation. Uh, at the same time, they gave Yale University an equal grant of ten years and gave Rochester one for ten years. And the dean at Yale was Dr. Winternitz, who had been a uh, pathologist and Dr. Whipple had been a pathologist, both of them had graduated from Hopkins and Winternitz, uh, and Whipple did not get along together. They had a lot of conflicts in the times they were there. Uh, Winternitz let people go for the M.D. degree in the program that he set up. And interestingly enough, Dr. Burkett, who uh, was teaching me at Penn and later became dean at the school, went to Yale and got the M.D. degree, but is--of all the people 49:00that went through Yale--he is o--one of maybe, I'll say three to five people, who ever returned to dentistry. The others all then went--went on and stayed in medicine and Whipple's feeling was that if you wanted--allow any of these people to get the M.D. degree they won't stay with dentistry and he wanted people to get developed in the area of basic sciences and be able to go back to dental schools to teach basic science in the dental school so it would be applicable to dentistry. Well, the uh--this, uh, is kind of interesting here because when this school at Kentucky, uh, was initiated and when I came down here, uh, one of the people that I met very early here was Dr. Bill Winternitz, Dean Winternitz's son (Smoot laughs) who was interesting 50:00to talk to and to hear his comments about his father's side of the story because uh, over the years with Dr. Whipple, uh, when I reached there--at Rochester--he was still dean in 1945, and I forget what year he retired, but he stayed, uh, dean through the time I was active in things at Rochester. Uh, he would have a tea on Friday afternoons and uh, you'd go down to his lab, which--his office, which had a roll-top desk, which had a candlestick telephone--the original telephone that was put in when the place was built-- and all of these pictures of famous people around there, uh, that he had known and people who had gone through that place and uh, he would tell about--interesting anecdotes about uh, life at Hopkins and the development of the school and all that and I'd heard all his stories about Winternitz and the monkeys escaping at Hopkins and traveling down the telephone wires through town and all that kind of stuff. So uh, it was interesting to 51:00run into Bill when we got here. Well I discovered these people up in oral surgery and at that time--in uh, dental research--at that time, Ed Gilda, who was the fellow who was--what was called the senior fellow, the person who was kind of in charge, and the group selected their own leader and when that person left then they would select a new person to be the senior fellow. And uh, Paul Kise was there at the time; Paul is now a controversial figure. He--he went--eventually went on to NIH, he taught at Harvard for a while, he's done a lot of interesting things and he has come up with a theory on periodontal disease and the--and the contagious aspects of dental carries of periodontal disease and the various bugs that are involved in periodontal disease and it's been restructive of the traditional methods of dealing with that right now so Paul is a big name in uh, controversies in dentistry at the moment. 52:00Uh, another person was there was S. Wile Young, who had graduated from McGill, and a Canadian citizen who became dean of the University of British Columbia Dental School in uh, uh, British Columbia. Martin Deacons was there and Martin Deacons uh--uh, has since died, but he had gone through school to become a chemist, uh, he'd then gone to dental school at Creighton, got out in the depth of the depression, took up bumming around the country and he had a Leica camera and photographed things and--interesting things--he uh, won a spread in Life magazine, in those days there was a section called "Speaking of Pictures" and in that "Speaking of Pictures" were a view under the table in a library where he had photographed girls sitting with their legs in all different kinds of positions (Smoot laughs) under the table, with their ankles crossed, their legs crossed and uh--and all kinds of a--angles 53:00and he had that published. He bummed around the country for a while, finally decided that uh, he would uh, come to Rochester and get a Master's degree in biochemistry, which he did, then he got a mas--then he got a Ph.D. degree in biochemistry, went to Pennsylvania to teach for a while. At Pennsylvania things didn't go good, he went to Harvard to teach at Harvard and uh, then from there came back to Rochester and decided he wanted to become a physician and so he was in the group, not as--really as a member, he was a full time medical student, uh, became a physician, then took a residency in pediatrics and went off to Logan, Iowa, his original hometown, where he opened up an office for dentistry in the morning, medicine in the afternoon, became a consultant--there's a uh, state college there and a veterinary station there--and became a consultant to the veterinary station there and that--and interestingly, his wife, who graduated from Strom Memorial Nursing School where my 54:00wife graduated--Marie got her Bachelor's and her nursing degree--but his wife, uh, he had met when he first went to Rochester and they had decided to live together, never gotten married, and when he went to Pennsylvania she went to Pennsylvania and they lived together there and then they went to Boston and that, came back to Rochester, she came back, when to work there. About the time he was ready to graduate--it was not the custom in those days for people to live together unmarried, uh, it's just that all the--a lot of these things that go on today (laughs) uh, a lot of it happened in the past--but anyway, they decided to get married so uh, they invited us to their wedding. One Saturday afternoon they took time to get married and uh--and--and he went to Iowa, they went out--she went out to Iowa with him--out there. Uh, but his papers--and uh, classic papers--that he did in uh, dealing with the biochemistry and the nature of uh, enamel and cementum and uh, of the 55:00influence of the citrates and stuff, uh, are really interesting. Uh, Dave Mitchell was there. Dave uh, eventually went to Minn--Minnesota, then to Indiana. Uh, well I'm drawing blanks on a lot of the people, but uh, a lot of--of the names of the people who were there at the time were interesting and uh, I just decided to go right out of the oral surgery thing into that area and go for a Ph.D. When I finished and got a Master's and--I guess the Ph.D. wasn't the real--really at that point, but I got a Master's in 1949 and Dave Mitchell was at Minnesota and he said, "Come on up here, we need somebody to chair our oral diagnosis department" and I said, okay, and I went up there and got interviewed for the job at Minnesota and it wasn't enough money. 56:00By this time, uh, we had three children and uh, so, uh, I said it would take more money and Dr. Crawford, who was the dean at the time, said, "Well, we can't pay anybody with a Master's degree any more than that, now if you had a Ph.D, we could do better." So uh, we came back and uh, thought about that and decided, what the heck, I--I'm in it and going, let's just keep on going and uh, uh, Marie didn't say no and I--I don't think she was all that thrilled with it, but uh--and I'm sure her father thought his daughter would starve to death and the kids would probably too, uh, 'cause it uh--it seemed like a dumb thing for people looking at it, uh, to see it that way. But uh, we had worked out some interesting things to get money, uh, there were no NIH funds at that time, but uh--but I got a grant from the Army for 57:00studying local anesthesia, which was a very sizable grant at the time. Uh, we worked for the Rystan Company, which was developing chlorophyll toothpastes and did some studies there. Uh, John Hine had gotten to be senior fellow after uh, Ed Gilda. Ed went on to be an orthodontist and is still in Rochester at the Eastman Dental Center. John uh, went on to become dean of Tufts and then is director of the uh, Forsythe Dental Center in Boston, what a tremendous program going there, a terrific operation. Uh, John and I worked on a project for Rystan which showed that soft--uh, confirmed actually what a physician had found at uh, Baylor, who discovered that soft toothbrushes were better than hard and that uh, it didn't matter how you brushed your teeth as long as you brushed them (Smoot laughs), you can go up and down, back and forth or whatever direction, but as long as you use a soft brush things work out 58:00great. And uh, we had fun with that, we had a--we--we reported on some information that contradicted a whole lot of stuff that had been done by a fellow in Chicago for the Rystan Company. That caused a big to-do at one of the IADR meetings because Rystan was about to sign a contract with Colgate to license them to make chlorophyll toothpaste and if I gave my paper that would blow their scheme (Smoot laughs) and they wanted me not to do the paper. And we said, no, the agreements are--we can do it and we did it and Mr. Ryan and uh, this fellow in Chicago that had published all these things got in a terrible fight, both got censored. Uh, that fellow had uh--had been dishonest and had deceived the Rystan Company and it cost them a fortune. Uh, little events like that happened along the way (both laugh) for all these people to make it fun. Uh, when uh, Dr. Harvey Burkhart, who had been instrumental 59:00in getting the University of Rochester Medical and Dental School created, as--he was director of the Eastman Dental S--uh, Dispensery, it was called then, uh, and he had worked with George Eastman. He was George Eastman's go-between--he met Mr. Eastman every morning and uh--it was a traditional thing in Rochester, was to say Mr. Eastman- -and uh, then he would carry Mr. Eastman's messages on how things were--should be run in the city to City Hall and uh, things went on. The city was a very paternalistic city, uh, Strombird, Carlson, Taylor Instrument, uh, Castle, Ritter Dental, uh, all these big companies--uh, Baush and Lomb--the families did everything, they were all family held operations, they did everything for the city. It's entirely different 60:00now, uh, all of those thing are--Seebron is now a merger of Castle and Ritter and Taylor and a whole bunch of them, plus other companies, and they're stockholder held and it's--it's not the same as it was then. But Eastman ran the city, uh, Burkhart would do that and in turn the payoff to Burkhart was that uh, Eastman--Burkhart--had been mayor and a dentist in Batavia, New York and mayor there, got into this political thing with Eastman, then got the dental center built and they built them in Stockholm, in Rome, in Paris and London. Uh, he had them around Europe, which gave uh, Dr. Burkhart a nice opportunity to visit Europe regularly, he (laughs)--so the uh, uh--Burkhart died and the person they got to replace him was Dr. Basil Bibby. Bibby had been the first dental fellow at Rochester, he'd come from New Zealand, and uh, he had gone through the program there and Dr. Carmichael in the 61:00physiol--in the philosophy department at the University of Rochester had become president of Tufts and when he got--as president of Tufts- -he was looking for a dean, he got Dr. Bibby to come there and Bibby is a fantastic person, he is uh, just an amazing man. He is still in his lab everyday in Rochester. Uh, he was born in 1900, so he's eighty-six now. Uh, he came to Rochester in 1947, he was forty-seven (laughs) then--I--I can put this together, that's simple numbers to deal with--uh, he uh, took over the Eastman Dental Center and converted it from a thing delivering dentistry to children to a research center and an outstanding operation. But he could spot people and he would take people that most--most of us would not gamble on a lot of the people. I think a lot of people wouldn't gamble on me, but he did 62:00and he helped support me and uh, gave me some things to do that would help finance things as we were going along. I had gotten in trouble with the chairman of the Department of Surgery at the hospital because it--I went to him and complained about the guy who was doing the three tic--three hat--three noon hours a week running that program down there and told him how bad I thought it was. It turned out it was one of his good friends. (both laugh) I didn't know that. And with all of that I ended up loosing my privileges in the hospital, which I had acquired when I--when I went as a dental fellow. Uh, I had maintained some operating privileges which--it was another opportunity to uh, make some money and I got wiped out of the OR. But the people in plastic and the people in ENT, uh, had found me useful in doing a lot of things that they didn't know how to handle and what to do with and if they didn't know, shoot, I'd tell them I did and uh, we'd work it out and do some 63:00things. So they would let me come in with them when they were working and uh, my name never showed up on the operating schedules and that. And I'm sure Dr. Morton knew I was doing it, but uh, he never said anything and uh, that went along fine. Well uh, we got the Master's and were back getting the Ph.D and the Korean War started and back when I got out of the Army I had spent something like nineteen months in the service in the ASTP, when the Korean War came along, I went home one day and here's a telegram, greetings from Secretary Forrestal and how the heck he found me I don't know (Smoot laughs), because I had a discharge that was free and clear, but because my draft board was in my hometown, or had been, I never went back and registered with the draft board again. I had been traveling without a card, uh, all 64:00this time and--but I guess they had done it for me (laughs) because he knew right where to reach me and uh, so uh, I had to go back in the service. A law was passed that anybody who had received a dental or medical degree or veterinary medicine since World War II and had not served as a dentist in the military services for twenty-one months must go back in the service. It was a terribly put together bill, hastily done, because it meant that all of those men who had gotten out of the service, gone to dental school on their GI bill and now had dental degrees, had to go back in the service and some of these guys spent four years in the South Pacific, uh, spent their life on a battleship or whatever and they were not happy about that at all. The bill got 65:00changed and they were allowed to leave after one year, but a lot of them lost their--you know, had to sell their practices, do all kinds of things, but they did get time to make adjustments for it. I was in graduate school and they would not make any adjustments for anybody in graduate school, in the First Army district, which was New York. I out--later found out that in every other Army district in the country, if you had three or more dependents they used that as a bypass. I had four dependents and that still didn't phase them in New York. Well, John Hines wrote and argued and fought with uh, General Love--not fought--but wrote very strong letters. And General Love was a very nice person. I didn't know him at the time and didn't think much of him in advance, but he was--he arranged that I would be taken into the service and sent to Fort Belvoir, Virginia and that from that point they would try and get me moved over to the, uh, Walter Reed where they 66:00had research activities going on and maybe I could continue some of my stuff. Well, I was in the pathology department getting--working toward a degree in experimental pathology. A guy by the name of Joe Bunier was a dental officer in the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, a very political man, and he did not want anything--I'd say pathological--but anything (Smoot laughs) related to pathology going on at Walter Reed. So that never got pulled off. He would not permit me to be transferred at all to Walter Reed, so I spent my time at Fort Belvoir and uh, it turned out to be--it was not a bad tour, it was nice; uh, I--I've served in two wars and never heard a shot fired in anger. Uh, the situation at Belvoir was such that uh, uh--I was assigned there with what's called an MOS number--and I've forgotten what the numbers 67:00run--but it turned out through a typographical error, I was listed as a prosthodontist and uh, I was assigned to dental clinic number two. It was on the other side of the post from where the hospital was located and also operating that clinic was Major Love, General Love's son. (Smoot laughs) Major Love was a prosthodontist, but he didn't have the prosthodontic number and the table of organization for that post called for one prosthodontist and I had the number--I didn't know it. Well, the guy who was the doing the oral surgery at the hospital was at the hospital because his father was a big surgeon in Baltimore and uh, they knew the people in the military and had arranged to have him as an oral surgeon at the post hospital. He had finished--trained at Mayo, so-- but he was a stubborn person and did things in a--in a manner that just didn't fit in with a fast moving operation. There were seventeen-- 68:00sixteen--training companies on that post, uh, was an engineer corps--and uh, a company had to be shipped every week. Every six--sixteen weeks you graduated and you were off to Korea--and you had to move them--and he would not work fast. He did everything in such an elaborate fashion that they could not speed him up and they finally said, "If you don't move it we're going to move you." And he didn't do it and they moved him; they sent him to Korea and they moved me over to the hospital then as the, uh, oral surgeon on the post, based at the hospital. The sergeant came in one day and said, "We've got a little paperwork we want to straighten out here, would uh--would you uh, go down to the office and--and uh, see about getting this fixed up." And uh, I said, "Whatever you say, what's the paperwork?" He said, "Well, we want to change your MOS number" and I--that's when he had to explain what those 69:00were to me, I didn't know. And when he explained the whole situation to me I said, "You know, it really doesn't make any difference to me, as soon as my time's up I want to get out of here; whatever it takes I'll do it." So I went down and uh, I became the post oral surgeon with the proper MOS number and Bill Love got his (laughs) prosthetic number straightened out. And our--our Colonel Overam, who was in charge there, was also the chief dental officer for the military district of Washington, who was just one of the nicest people you would want to meet and his father-in-law was General Wort, the commanding general for the post there and life was nice on that post--uh, as long as you were white--because there was still segregation going on at the time.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: And we did have a black dentist, even though I had shared quarters with him at BOQ, who uh, when we received--we had--they had dances. Every month there would be a dance at a different place around the military district of Washington. And when they were going to have the dance--the Pentagon group was going to have a dance--uh, Colonel 70:00Overam was--it was suggested to him that he ask Dr. Duquet not to attend and so Colonel Overam called us all together and said, "What do you--what do you--what's your feelings about all this?" And we said none of us will go. So he said fine and none of us went and I don't think they had any after that; I think that ended it. Anyway, uh, we had a good time and it ge--got down to within about eight months of my leaving and they had to get a replacement in for me and the replacement was Al Morris. Al arrived and Al had uh--had gone out with General Scheyer at uh, Letterman in uh, San Francisco and had done a dental internship out there and had been recognized by Sheyer as an outstanding person, somebody that the service could really use; they wanted him. And uh, so, one way to--to help Al know that a career in the service would be great would be get him into the military district 71:00of Washington area where they could really work on him. So he was sent as my replacement. Well, we had a two chair oral surgery clinic and Al came in and he was anxious to--to work and go ahead. He--he's just full of enthusiasm and--and wants to go all the time. And uh, I said to Al, there's two chairs, uh, both of us can't really work in here 'cause when I was doing it I'd--I would inject fifteen guys and have them sitting in the grass out there while--I'd run through ten of them and then inject the next fifteen and use one chair back, (Smoot laughs) and forward and back and forward, going as fast as you can go. And uh, so I went back in the lab and got some books on the history of the Civil War, since there were a lot of Civil War (laughs) sites to visit around there and see and uh, did that and uh, when things got really busy or he needed an ex--couple of extra hands to do things, I'd go in and do it and uh--but mostly left it to Al. And we got to 72:00talking about the future and what we'd like to do and it turned out that Al had decided that he wanted to go back to Michigan and hoped to get back into the oral diagnosis area there, and had an arrangement, uh, to come back and--and be, as they say at Michigan, groomed for the job. Uh, and I just casually said, "Well, you know, I--I think that's great, but it seems to me that rather than go back to Michigan it would be nice to go someplace else and get another viewpoint on things before you go back there, and so you have a broader view of it." And uh, he agreed that would be, so he wrote back to them and told them that he thought he'd like to do that. And I was trying to talk him into going to Rochester. Uh, he uh, got a letter back from Bill Nann, who was the dean--or the--I guess he was associate dean at that time and kind of handled personnel I guess--said that if he didn't come back there he might as well look someplace else because they weren't about to have somebody contaminated (laughs) from someplace else. (Smoot laughs) 73:00And uh, so uh, we talked about it and meanwhile the Army was working on Al also. And General Bunier, who wouldn't allow me to go to Walter Reed, just about the time I'm going to get out--on the fourteenth of February--calls me over--sends a limousine--and calls me over to uh, the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, uh, down there where--it's now out at Walter Reed, but at that time it was down where the Smithsonian is now, it was a part of that complex. And uh, boy, he was just as sweet as could be when I had gone for an interview the first time. He told me there was no way I could move over with him unless I agreed not to get a Ph.D. And I said, "I've got too much into it to not do that." He said, "Well if you want your boards" I said, "Sure, I want those too." He said, "You can't have them if you get a Ph.D." Now, two years later he wants to know how we can work out things for me to come on over there. I couldn't understand what--why he had changed so, which 74:00I later found out the political pressure was on him, that he had been restricting and holding things down and the organization wanted them to grow and get in more people, get involved in academic things and uh, he was trying to make the change because he was the secretary-treasurer of the organization and he wanted to keep that position. They gave him a lot of control--I can speak to that. (both laugh) Well, he uh--I told him, "Well you know, I'm going to get out in a month, it doesn't make any sense." Oh--he was so surprised, "Time goes so fast, you're going to get out in a--oh, that is too bad. Well, when you get back to Rochester I want you to tell those people there to be sure and get their boards in oral (laughs) pathology." "Urge them to get involved in the organization and all that." And I said yes, sir and left. Well, then he went to work on Al and uh--to get Al in through this route uh, and it was an area where they really needed somebody of--of Al's ability and character and they uh, uh, were offering him different 75:00things. Well, we were back in Rochester now and started back to trying to get going again. I had really been set back by that two years. Uh, and I got a call one night and it was Al. The next day he was going over to see Bunier and Bunier had made him an offer, uh, that would be getting a Master's degree at Georgetown, uh, a promise to stay with the AFIP, uh, that the uh--he would not have to take the overseas tours that usually people do, uh, whether it would be uh, an arrangement to go to Panama or something like that. I--I don't know the details of it, but it was a terrific package they were offering him. And uh, so he said, "What do you think?" And I said, "Well shoot, Al, you know, it sounds awful good, uh, but this is a lot of fun here and a lot of 76:00good things going on here," and uh, I said, "I--I don't know what to say, but I hope uh--I hope you make the right decision." And my wife was listening to me on the telephone and when I hung it up she went after me. She berated me because Al's wife, Arlene, uh, was--Marie said, there's just no way she can spend her life in the Army, that's no place for her and--and that's not a life--Ma--Marie didn't think much of that Army life. (Smoot laughs) And uh, boy, she really gave me a hard time. So I said, "Okay, I'll call him back in the morning (laughs) and tell him he's got to come here." So I called him back the next morning and reached him just before he was going to go. And I don't know what his decision had been that night, uh, what he had thought about and I don't know the events that happened after that, but anyway he did make the decision to come to Rochester, which uh, was great. When he got to Rochester, uh, we were together for about a 77:00year and uh, really enjoyed it. He uh--I had finished and graduated, uh, with my Ph.D. and was working at the dental dispensary--the dental center-- Dr. Bibby had given me a job and uh, uh, was holding on there while--tried to see where do we go from here? And uh, so, although we didn't work directly in the lab together, we saw a lot of each other and uh, did some things together. Uh, when I got the offer--I went to an IADR meeting and--and just told a couple of friends I guess I was ready to leave Rochester. Nobody ever thought I would 'cause I never had anything but good--Rochester was the garden spot of the universe, the only place in the world to live and all that, and they didn't like the telephone service there because--in fact, my father had been with the telephone company and I told them it was the best telephone service there was anyplace. (Smoot laughs) And so when I said I was going to 78:00leave that kind of startled people and by the time I left that IADR meeting, I had nine different offers of opportunities of places to go. Uh, and the most attractive one of the group was the University of Michigan, uh, in the oral surgery department. And I came back and we talked about it and uh, went out to Michigan for an interview and saw the people there and--and as it turned out, decided to go there. And, uh, it was tough for Marie because her mother and father were there in Rochester and interestingly enough, her sister, uh, had married Pete Stewart who was in the pathology department as a resident and uh, when I was a member of the pathology department as a dental fellow and so I'd known Pete and Marie--had known Pete and Helen and when Marie and 79:00I got married, uh, Pete was uh, the--he's the guy who's name is on our wedding certificate. And uh, they had gone to Columbia, he had taken a job teaching at--pathology at Columbia and her mother and father were there and that--it was kind of--it was something that just hadn't happened in all of our families before, to pull up and leave. Um, my father had died while I was in dental school and--he had a coronary and died--and uh, my mother had had a hard time over that and had attempted suicide a couple of times before she finally recovered and--and got back to working as a nurse. And uh, so we, uh--we decided that we would go and it was--it was really tough on uh, people, to pull up and go to Michigan. Well, we got out there and the trouble was--I had to start on the first of July, Marie was pregnant, our son Peter has 80:00cerebral palsy--which is--has not impaired him intellectually, but has impaired him physically--and he had had to have surgery done and here he was in spread eagle casts, Marie pregnant, due in August and I go off to Michigan and we don't have a house or a place to live out there and uh, this is the sixth child that's on the way. So, uh, I found a house and Marie never had a chance to see it be--before we bought it and uh, I flew home, put the boys in the car--and the cat--and drove back out there. And uh, I had the cat--it was injected and everything done to it to get through Canada with a doggone cat; the guy at the customs never cared about the cat, he wanted to know what was I doing traveling around with those three boys and no mother. (both laugh) The uh--so we got out there and got in the place and--and uh, Marie flew out with the girls. Um--but in the meantime, I had gone back--uh, back 81:00and forth and one time I went back on a--got in on a Friday night, was going to spend the weekend there for a visit and at the airport--uh, the kids were there to meet me and I--I don't know whether it was Al or who it was there--and they said, "We have a baby sister.. And I said, "When did this happen?" They said yesterday. (Smoot laughs) And when Marie had gone into labor she'd called Al and Al had taken her to the hospital to uh--so that uh, when Betsy was born. Well, we got--things got going there in Michigan and uh, it became--it--I took the job mostly because Al said, you know, they need help out there. Uh, it--it's inbred and I was the third of a series of people they had taken. Three years in a row they had gone outside and recruited people from outside. Bob Moyers was recruited in orthodontics from Toronto, he's originally from Iowa and he's a very outspoken guy and uh, well 82:00known all over for his work in orthodontics. The next year they'd come to Rochester and they'd taken Jim Avery there to go out and develop the research because research had kind of slipped and they wanted to get it going again. And the next year they got me. And they didn't take anybody from outside for a while afterwards because I guess the three of us were, uh, quite a bit for them to cope with initially. Since that--that's all changed around and there are a lot of people shifting, they're coming and going, but at that time it was--it was quite unique for them. Uh, when I'd been there a couple of years, I get--I got a letter from Dr. Burkett, who was writing around to different alumni asking for suggestions for someone, uh, in a faculty position that had opened up there in oral diagnosis and oral medicine. So right away I said, Al's got to be the guy. And so I wrote to Al and I said, "Look, you said I had to go to Michigan, now you've got to go to Pennsylvania; they need help down there." There--there were not a lot 83:00of opportunities at that time; a lot of positions didn't open up like they did through the seventies--sixties and seventies--when the place exploded. At this time--there were always a few, but you had to look them over. And Al took off on a trip and looked around the country and he came back and decided to go to Pennsylvania. So, uh, that--that worked out there, then a couple of years later, uh, my brother-in-law- -my--Marie's brother-in-law, Pete Stewart, had been offered a position as chairman of the pathology department at the University of Kentucky and he had taken it. He had come out here and was chairman of--he was going--he was the first chairman of the oral pathology department here. And Pete dropped me a letter; and he said uh, they're looking for a dean of dentistry out here, uh, what do you think about it? So I wrote him back and suggested a number of people that I thought would be good 84:00people, uh, for that position and among them was Al. Uh, how--I don't know the details of what ever happened to that letter or anything, but anyway I was--I was pushing Al and I knew Al had--originally his family was from Kentucky. Uh, so, uh, it ended up at an IADR meeting in Boston that spring of 1961 and Al tells me he's taken the job out here and you ought to come down and be in oral surgery. So I said, "No, I'm happy where I am, we like it there, the--the kids have--uh, are adjusted to it and I'm having a good time." So, uh, he got down here and--in July, they got here the first of July, it was July or August--the end of July or August. He said, "You've got to come down and look." So I came down and they had an interview set--schedule set 85:00up for me. And mainly we agreed to come down just on the basis that we wanted to see Marie's sister and Pete and the kids and see what this place was like down here. I really didn't have any intention of taking this and didn't want to be reimbursed for the trip, but willing to go through the--the routine that they were setting up for interviews and all that and by the time it was all over I decided that (laughs) it wouldn't be bad. And we went back and it was a--it was not an easy decision to make, uh, and it really was tough on the kids and tough on Marie because the--uh, Randy was in high school and uh, you know, you just don't tear people up like that, but the opportunity to--to start a department in a school that was just starting was something I'd never dreamed would ever really have happen. We used to sit around in Rochester when all of us would go to lunch or we'd be sitting around, 86:00uh, just having a bull session and we'd talk about what would we do if we started a school, how would we make it go, what would we do different and we all--and we all talked about what--what you would do if you could really start from scratch, and here was the chance that uh you could do it. And uh, so we did and uh, it--it was really rough for the family to--to move them down here. But they uh, uh--now it's home, uh, not quite in that way--if you ask our older three kids, uh, where's home, they would say Rochester, New York. If you ask the next three, where's home, they'd say Ann Arbor, Michigan. You say, but you're here in Lexington. Well, this is where we live (Smoot laughs) and they equate home with where they were born and the early years they remember. Uh, but uh, things did work out. Randy's a lawyer with the Postal Rate Commission. Uh, he went back to Michigan, uh, right away, 87:00as soon as he got out of high school here. He got a National Merit Scholarship and he up to Michigan State, but they didn't do anything with National Merit scholars and uh, it--he fooled around a lot and it wasn't really a good program and he flunked some courses and he wanted to get out of there. There wasn't any way he could leave with failing grades, so he went back the next year and cleaned all that up and then transferred back here, graduated from here with distinction, went on to uh, University of Virginia Law School. We had a lot of trouble over the Vietnam War and things there, but he managed to finish there and uh, then got a Master's in architecture--in the uh, planning part of it, is what he was interested in and now he works for the Postal Rate Commission. Tim went through here, on over to Hanover, Indiana to school, got scholarships there, uh, came back here, got scholarships in medical school, went on in pediatrics and practices here in town. 88:00Molly, uh, went down to Auburn and we used to spring--spend spring vacation down in uh, um, Fort Pickens, about the only time we could get everybody together. Uh, even then Randy didn't get in on that 'cause he was away. But we uh--we'd go down and vacation there. And she got interested in Auburn because she was interested in interior design and they had a good program there. Uh, she finished up in fine arts and she works now over at the Lexington School, uh, in a program there and uh, works part-time at McAlpins. She's here in town. Peter, uh, got in love with Fort Pickens and the Pensacola area and he ended up going to Pensacola Junior College, but uh, it was in that era when people decided they wouldn't finish school or they wouldn't do these things that the--it just wasn't that, so he uh, uh, didn't graduate, but he 89:00came back and started working as a night person in the library here, uh, and now is a reference librarian in the medical library here and uh, doing good and I hear good things about him from all the people that tell how helpful he is. Uh, Betsy went down to Lincoln Memorial to school, which was interesting because Al Morris' father had gone to Lincoln Memorial back when that was a high school at the time and had helped build some of the buildings and things there I guess. And uh, she married a fellow who was down there and he's in--came here and graduated in engineering and now they live back in Harrogate which is (laughs) where Lincoln Memorial is. And uh, Susie I skipped. Susie was before Betsy. Susie went to Centre for a while and then came back here 'cause she had a boyfriend here, went into dental hygiene, graduated with her Bachelor's in--in allied health in dental hygiene, uh, practiced for a while in Morehead, drove back and forth to Morehead 90:00and then uh, decided she wanted to go into teaching. It--it just wasn't challenging enough to do that stuff, so she came back and got a Master's in Education and then taught at LTI and then her husband got a position in uh, Normal, Indiana with State Farm Mutual Insurance. Before that she had almost taken a job in the dental hygiene program at Denver at the University of Colorado, but got pregnant, but uh, her husband was ready to go to Colorado so that she could take that job out there, but uh, instead they stayed here and--and now they live in Louisville. He has a job with uh, a large company in Louisville; they live over there. So people are fairly close around us here. It uh-- uh, the schools turned out here to have a--

91:00

[Pause in recording]

SMOOT: There we are, okay.

COSTICH: Well, we moved to Lexington and uh, we uh--getting going with the school was probably about as much fun as you could ever imagine. The uh, people that were here when I got here--uh, there was Roy Durocher, uh, Mike Romano, uh, Harry Bohannon, Al Morris and uh, Dan Dio, who had been uh, in charge of the laboratories at Pennsylvania, who had come along to help get it set up. And then uh, they put together a lot of the stuff that was done here. They worked in a lot of things and had a lot of difficult things to deal with because the building was built and finished. And I guess one of the things that I learned right away was that before you build a building you ought to have your curriculum designed because if your building was 92:00designed to look like a typical 1930-40 dental school, made out of the same old pattern that was built for those times and the things that uh, people wanted to do coming into the sixties were different. Uh, so there was a lot of reconstruction that had to go on and a lot of figuring out. Uh, Mike Romano worked--he's clever with design and figuring things out and then they came up with some new dental units and they put together the--the facilities that we thought were--were pretty classy for that period of time. Uh, the, uh--the whole thing was just exciting to try and redesign the space, design the equipment and put the curriculum together. They'd put--they had put together a curriculum committee, I wasn't a part of that curriculum committee, but 93:00uh, they had met and talked about how things would go and everything that was there, it turned out--uh, at least for me--the things that we had talked about in--in various groups over the years about how we'd like to do it--uh, one of the problems of putting basic science--and just having people sit in classrooms for two years and go through basic science and do some little laboratory techniques like taking an impression of a coin and have the milled edges come out perfect and that kind of nonsense, uh--you didn't really get to do dentistry and get into it. Uh, one of the things that appealed to me about my dental school was that uh, because of war time or whatever, we got into clinical dentistry in the middle of our second year in dental school. Uh, and what they had talked about here was getting into clinical dentistry on the first day of school. By clinical dentistry I mean doing something that looks in a patient's mouth, which is--you--you 94:00have a partner and you sit in the chair and you learn to look in the mirror and you learn to use an explorer and you begin to do these things and gradually build. And the significance of what you take in basic science, uh, can be applied to clinical things if you can make that mesh, make things fit together. And so uh, the plan here--and Al had worked hard to get it worked out with the uh, the people in the uh, people in the College of Medicine--that one position in each of the basic science departments would be selected with the approval of the people in the College of Dentistry, so that uh, all Paul Apostolopoulos could come in biochemistry and he would be responsible for interpreting biochemistry for our dental students, uh, that we would have someone in these departments doing things. And uh, we started out that way. 95:00Uh, one of the things that happened as we went along is that uh, for exa--I picked on biochemistry because that's always a tough one. Uh, biochemistry, as it turned out, did not have sufficient material on calcification in the course they were teaching the dental students, to meet the need--I mean to medical students--to meet the need of dental students and so it--it was necessary to add extra hours for the dental students to cover that particular material. Uh, we--and it began to become apparent that there were things--problems like this in different areas, that you couldn't get a dental student really excited about excretion from the kidney, although it's something you have to understand and know how electrolytes are reabsorbed and disposed of and all that. But you could get them interested in talking about saliva and how the salivary glands work and saliva is excreted and 96:00how the electrolytes were transferred there. And if you could switch some of these things and make them in dental orientation and have some significance to them, maybe it would catch and stick. Well, the uh--the curriculum committee, uh, that we started out with, which really ended up being the chairman of the department that had been appointed. Judd Hickey came in prosthetics, uh, John Mink came in uh, uh, pediodontics, uh, Harry Bohannon, who was here and in ----------? hired Stan Saxe who came the same year I did and uh--I'm trying to think of who else. We got to be known as--it was the core faculty were those four that came and then they--Al had a knack for coming up with things and the rest of us became--called core prime. That seemed to offend some people because the people who came after that, you couldn't exactly say core prime prime. And people who came on after that didn't have the same amount of input into what was going on. Uh, 97:00and it wasn't be--it wasn't intentional, it wasn't that anybody wanted to slight anybody, but the group that had the momentum going from the start wanted to go forward with what they were doing and our chairman-- the group that met every Monday--who'd--handle curriculum committee. We handled everything that we would--we were the committees--of all committees to do most of the things that required a lot of uh, acting. There were little subcommittees that would be set up to do other little tasks, bring it back to this group to resolve it and what have you. It was an interesting management system, Al was uh--his style was interesting, uh, he involved people all the time. He was around this building everywhere. He was in your office talking about how things were going, he was pushing research and the effort that had to 98:00be done in doing research uh, and uh, just--his personality sparkled everywhere he went and everybody uh, just thought the world of him. But he has a temper, it--it could get him--you could tell when he was getting excited because little, white spots would appear in his cheeks. Instead of getting red-faced, he got sort of red, but there were these white spots would begin to show up and his hands would begin to move (striking table) and uh, you would--you could sense (Smoot laughs) what was going on. And uh, I don't--I liked this--I liked the way things went under Al and under Harry because they were leading the place, they were coming up with ideas, they were moving things and they had a plan and they were making things go. And they would talk with people about them and discuss them, but they were going to see that it went. Uh, and so Al--to me the style he used at the meetings on these 99:00Mondays was that he'd come in and he'd have letters that had come in from different people about different things and other little kinds of stuff that was going on and he'd spend about the first twenty to thirty minutes in the session reading these things, giving these little things that were interesting, but really not worth very much. And then in about the last fifteen minutes he'd get to the meat of things and it would go bing, bing, bing, bing, bing (snaps fingers five times), you had to move (Smoot laughs) you had to go, there wasn't time to do an awful lot of thinking and talking and a lot of discussion because the meetings ended at one o'clock. And uh, it moved; and we got things done. Uh, as we got bigger and bigger, uh, a lot of the people who were, who were--the workers that were doing the jobs and out meeting the challenges (laughs) and putting the stuff in and we were adding classes. We didn't have the time that we had in the first year when we had twenty-four students (laughs) or so and then you add a class and 100:00you add a class and you add a class; it gets tougher as you go. And some of these people began to feel left out and they were trying to come up--they would go--created their own little club where they'd meet on the side and talk about things. And there were really a few people who were--would be dissenters in whatever was going on and uh, were the uh, kind of people who would organize to be against something or feel that they were being denied or deprived or not thought of or cared for and that was disturbing to have that. It was uh, like a gnat buzzing in your ear. But we moved ahead despite of all that. And we had the other advantage, that other places were expanding and growing and we had a revolving door down there. We would turn over our faculty, and it was--one year we turned over 14 percent of the faculty. Um, and you were constantly recruiting and bringing in new people and looking at it. And uh, Roy Durocher got an opportunity to go to Pittsburgh in as assistant or associate dean and he wanted that title and early in 101:00the game Al didn't want to have that kind of position in this set up. Uh, he was the dean and that was it. There were other people doing tasks, but there were no assistant or associate deans and when Roy went to Pittsburgh--uh, when he left he was chairman of the curriculum division activities that were going on and uh, I got that job when he left and it--it had its problems. We were working on the diagonal curriculum and it was developed on the basis that you didn't dump--junk in a course just to make it fill the semester and you didn't jam stuff in something because it wasn't enough for two semesters, so you had to put it in one. We had the course started when it was logical to start something and it ended when the work was complete and there were no semesters, course work began and ended and things--it was an attempt to design to have things happen when they had relevance to the activity. 102:00For example, when the students were learning to take impressions of the jaws--that's done in prosthetics, it's done in pediodontics, it's done in orthodontics and at that time we had operative dentistry and permanent bridge dentistry, it was done in those things--so there was an agreement on what would be the standards for doing that no matter where the student was. He didn't have to learn one thing for this place and another one for that place, it was standardized and all of those people would participate in teaching it and having it roll and at that the same you would teach about the other materials, so that the materials--if you're going to have impression materials that shrink, but you've got to order the material right away and you've got a coefficient of expansion that's involved in these things, then all that could be part of this procedure. Putting it all together was--was kind of rough. And we had people coming in from schools who had experience 103:00in other schools, and the easiest thing for you to do is do what you've always done. When all else fails, resort to whatever it was you did someplace else. So I took the job as the coordinator and because of the--all the experience at Rochester and all the talking and things about what you have to do to solve this, I took it pretty seriously. And uh, when someone came in and we were going to present the curriculum for the next year and they would say--as one of our people came in and said, "Well, for my course I'm going to need uh, ninety-two hours" and uh, I said, "Well, why--how did you arrive at ninety-two?" "I averaged up the number of hours of all the courses given around the country and that's the average as I went around the country." And I--that--well, you know, that doesn't really do the job. What we need is a topical outline of what are you going to do with those ninety-two hours and, you know, maybe you need more. And so the person came back 104:00and he had an outline, but just had a, a series of headings that he had filled in. I said, "Well, that--that's--now we know what you're going to cover, now in that first hour on that first day, what are you going to do? What do you want to accomplish in that?" And the guy looked at me like I was crazy. And uh, I said, "Well, you've got to have more detail than that, we've got to know what it is or we can't talk about it." And we pushed for that. So I would--I was pretty pushy about getting outlines over there and every year I made them come up with a new outline. Even if they were going to do the same thing they did the year before, I wanted them to go back over it and see if anything changed, anything in our experience that would make it better. What can you do and here's the date to have the outlines. And we worked out a system on a big bulletin board where you could put up four years across this board and then every day and every hour and we had them- 105:00-pieces of paper--pegged into all these spots, to know just exactly where everybody was at every time. And that helped us coordinate the use of our facilities because we had one technique lab, B6-11, and so you couldn't have two classes--two years--in there at the same time. When one class had to be in that lab, somebody else had to be--we had to put them someplace else. And the group that had come early and uh--Mike and I don't know who else, had worked out a system of putting mannequin heads in the chairs so that they could do technique work in the chairs, in the clinic and in the setting in which they would deliver care to the patient. It wasn't where you were sitting up in the lab and--when I went to school you could take the cast out, hold in it your hand or even take the tooth out, hold it in your hand, and make the preparation, put it back in and when you did it you leaned down and blew on it to get the dust away. That's a bad habit, you might do that when a patient's in the chair. (Smoot laughs) Well, the--we had to fit all these things together and make everything work out and I would 106:00go around and drop in every once in a while and monitor some of the things to see what was happening. And we had one new faculty person come in--it would take about a year and a half to two years for the faculty to get oriented to how we were doing things and how we wanted it to go. Everybody wanted to do what they did at the last place they were. And we had one gentleman come in who decided that he didn't like anything that--almost that was going on, he was going to have the students in for night classes and then they would have to buy a whole new set of instruments for the particular course that he taught. And that just--no way you could do that because we were very careful to be sure the number of hours that the students had in class and in clinic and the number hours they could spend out of time were kept in what we felt was a reasonable balance to just not drive them up the wall. It gives them some opportunities to also relax and assimilate a little bit of this stuff. And uh, it took some hard work to just stay on top of that and keep after that person, we had to re--rea--really go after 107:00him. Well, I s--stayed with that, but even in spite of it, there was a cl--things got added--an hour here, an hour there--and it would get jammed up and it kept growing. Uh, we got things underway, we got people coming in, we did not have a good pool of people to draw from. The University of Louisville had operated as a city-county school and anybody from outside of Jefferson paid out of state, you know, out of county tuition. You paid the same as a kid from Indiana or California. We were--we had a different set-up, but they had drawn on the whole United States and their county for their people and some people from around the state may have gotten in, but not an awful lot. And so there was no orientation to dentistry outside. So, Steve Gache, working with Roy Jarecky uh, and with Harry Bohannon went out and they 108:00went all over this state recruiting people and uh, the people that were accepted were accepted on the basis of not only what they had done in school coming in, but what their attitude was towards what they were going to do. We had one student who was in the first class coming in here, who was--uh, he was coming in with a grade point average of, I think, of 1.7 or something like that. And he was accepted in that class. Uh, and he got in on the basis that he was determined that he was going to be a dentist and in the course of the interview with one of the people that interviewed him, he later on said, "I voted for him and wanted him in here," he said, "Because of just one thing he said," and he said, "If I don't get in this school, I'll burn the damn place down." (Smoot laughs) Because he was so determined that he was going to come in, that uh he said, he thought he'd make it and he did. Well, 109:00he has been one of our most loyal alumni, uh, he has been an officer in the Dental Society, he's a prominent person in the dental profession and he's done just great. Interestingly enough, the Council on Higher Education at this moment has decided that they'll establish some standards for admission and they want a grade point average of 2.7 or 3, somewhere in there and it doesn't make any difference where it came from, they just want the number. And we don't work on that basis. If you graduate from podunk university, uh, your grade point average of 4 there may not be worth anywheres near what a 2. grade point average from Harvard might be. You had to balance all those things as you go along. Well, anyway, uh, we got--we went out and recruited and got these people in and they worked hard to do it and we built the pool up so that we had people coming and we made an effort to distribute it statewide, t--try and keep representation all over. And our goal was 110:00to get dentists back to the rural areas, back where they came from, and that was not an easy goal because people coming from Eastern Kentucky to school at that time--the coal business was really depressed-- and we didn't have any of the social programs going that we have now, to the extent that are going now. I remember talking to one kid from Eastern Kentucky--and I was naive--I said, "Well, when you get out of here," I said, uh, "Do you plan to go back home?" And he looked at me and said, "Are you crazy?" And I said, "No, I thought maybe you'd get to be a dentist and you'd go back to where you--your hometown and you'd do some things for the people back there." He said, "Hell no, getting in here was my ticket out of Kentucky," he said, "I've got no intentions of staying here." And we--and that was the attitude of a lot of them, in those early years, 'cause, if they could get this, they could get out. And at that time we took 20 percent of people from out of state and a lot of those people from out of state (laughs) didn't want to 111:00go back where they came from, they stayed here. So some of our early success in getting dentists into Kentucky were not because they were Kentuckians, but because we got them from out of state. Well, the uh- -the curriculum developed and moved ahead and we had people coming from all over to look at that and see how we were doing and uh, we pushed hard to publicize what we were doing in every way we could. We were out to get a name as fast as we could. If there was an opportunity to be on a program any place, we went for it. We--we were all over. Everybody was making the effort and it wasn't--it--it was thought more in terms of what we can do to make the school--I don't--I didn't detect any selfish interest in what it would do for me, to make me, uh, well known. And I was surprised I got invited to some of the things I did, but I went. Any time there was a--a request, I would go and do the best I could. Uh, when people then began to hear about us, they 112:00began to come and they were coming from South America, they were coming from Asia, coming from Europe. Happened to be in the country--uh, Al did a wonderful job of developing relationships with the ADA and those kinds of people, who then would suggest that the people were talking there--you ought to have a look at Kentucky, it's the newest of a new generation of schools and all that. When uh, these people came, we were just as gracious as we could be. We'd interrupt anything to show them around and tell them about us and hope that they'd go out (laughs) and talk about us someplace else. And it paid off in interesting ways. Uh, I got a call on a Saturday to meet a fellow that was coming through here and he was an orthodontist from somewhere in Asia and wanted to look at the place and uh, he came and no--nobody could find anybody that wanted to really take the time to do it. We had classes on Saturday then and we had meetings on Saturday and we were working 113:00Saturdays. And so I said okay, I'll do it. And it turned out he had studied orthodontics at Pennsylvania so we had a couple of things we could talk about in common from the-- from Pennsylvania. Showed him all through the school, uh, told him how we were doing things, showed him our curriculum board and how it was laid out and he had to catch an airplane, so I went out and got--he wanted me to call a cab, I said no, I'll take you out to the airport--got him in the car, took him out, toured the back roads around out through Calumet Farm and everything to the airport, stayed with him until he was on the plane and gone. A few years later, I got an invitation to be on the Sixth Asian Pacific Dental Congress Meeting in Bangkok, Thailand (Smoot laughs) and it turns out that he--he was from the university there and had come through here and was instrumental in getting me invited out there for that meeting. However, they could not pay me anything for travel, 114:00but they would provide, uh, 100 baht or something like--that's their coins--once we got to Bangkok and they would cover all my expenses in Bangkok. So Marie and I talked about it and decided she--we'll do it. If--if we don't do it, we'll probably never get an invitation and we'll maybe never do it. And so we did it. And we went. And uh, went by way of Japan, stopped there and toured around for a little bit in Tokyo and Akan National Park, on to Hong Kong. We stopped in Hong Kong, toured around there, had a great time there, went broke in Hong Kong, didn't have any money to pay my hotel bill 'cause they wouldn't take a Diners' card and uh, remembered that I could borrow money on my card, called the Diners' Club office about ten o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning, they were open, if I could get there quickly they could give me a check. We had to go from--from Kawloon, take the 115:00ferry boat across and run to this bank and we got the money (laughs) and got out of Hong Kong. And in Bangkok it was tremendous. We got to meet the king and queen. Uh, we were treated--uh, we got to meet the prime minister. I--it was just a tremendous, exciting experience to go through it. But it--it wouldn't have happened to me (laughs) if it hadn't been for this school and the things we were doing that were new and interesting and the fact that we had all these people funneling through here. And in--uh, as a result, a lot of other things happened along the way. I got to Colombia, uh, spoke a couple of times down there and I got to go back and invited my wife to come with me and we took one of our daughters along on that trip.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: I got invited to--

SMOOT: Bogota?

COSTICH: Bogota and Medellin, and got invited to uh, Buenos Aires, took a trip down there. And uh, then when Harry Bohannon got to be dean, he worked an arrangement in Italy and we got Italy to visit--and all 116:00of it because we had an enthusiastic bunch of people, who were working hard to put something new together and working hard to publicize it and putting out the extra. And when people say, i--it's publish or perish, I'll tell you, it's publish and have a great time. You--it--it really does pay off, and people getting to know about you and what's going on and inviting you around. Well as time went along, with the development of the curriculum, uh, it got jammed up and Al decided that he wanted to--to move on. And telling me one day, he said, I--he likes to be with things where the level of the incline of the growth is at a pretty good angle and when it begins to level off or plateau, he feels his enthusiasm wanes and he would like to then move on. And I guess I may be somewhat the same way, I don't know. As I look back on it, I've 117:00changed al-almost every seven or eight years I've changed my jobs. And (laughs) the uh--he moved over with Dr. Willard and uh, Harry Bohannon took over as the dean. And Harry had a style somewhat like, uh, Al's. Harry is--is a terrific organizer and if he takes on something to do it, he goes at it. And he takes it very seriously and does it the very best. He won't take anything less than the--than the best. And because he does it so thoroughly and works at it so good that when he brings you something and says, you know, "What do you think about this?" It's pretty hard to improve on what he brings and if you come up with something that's a little bit different and you present it to him, he'll say, "Yeah, I thought about that, but that isn't going to work because of boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." And he has thought about it and he has thought it all through. And for a lot of people that is upsetting. They don't want to be that way, they'd like him to take, 118:00I guess, two weeks to come around and say these things rather than get it over with. Uh, so the--the pressure of building and developing and changing continued. Well, our plan with basic sciences didn't work. The--it just didn't get the job done and so the idea then was to try and develop a department of oral biology which would have a group of people in it, who then through some different kind of an arrangement would try and interpret the courses--put in some extra little courses of things and try and relate the basic sciences to dentistry. (coughs) And that, uh--that didn't work either. And so our oral biology department then took over the responsibility for teaching biochemistry, microbiology, physiology and pharmacology. They--we, we withdrew from the departments over there. Uh, anatomy uh, stayed, we still have our 119:00relationship with anatomy the way it always was. Behavioral science kind of faded away, uh, and I can't--I don't understand the complete whys of that because I changed jobs in the course of the thing. Uh, when uh, Harry Bohannon became dean, he asked me to become an associate dean and so, uh, after six years in this job, I worked with the chairman of oral surgery and Ray White, uh, became chairman of oral surgery. I recruited Ray from the Medical College of Virginia, where he'd gotten a Ph.D. in anatomy and--and his oral surgery residency. And Ray later left here and went back to there and then went to North Carolina to dean and now is retired as dean and got a couple of other things--assistant vice-president or vice-president for something or other--I've lost track of it all. And Ray became chairman here. Uh, 120:00Bill Profit had been recruited for chairman of orthodontics and Bill was a unique person. He's another just outstanding, bright, ingenious guy, uh, and uh, very determined and he--when he's got his mind set on something, it's going to be that way; it's hard to divert him. And again he's a guy whose really given a lot of thought to what he does. Well, he's a different kind of orthodontist. And uh, we were trying to get into the facial reconstruction, orthomathic surgery, surgical repositioning of teeth and jaws. When Ray got here, uh, Bill had been here uh, just a little while and together created a program for our residents in oral surgery and our residents--and our graduate students in orthodontics--and became the first institution in the country where 121:00orthomathic surgery wasn't a going part of the operation. We set the first one up. We were also the first school to put orthodontics as a part of the undergraduate curriculum and have them do some minor tooth movement and put it in (coughs) and try and open up orthodontics to expose it, so that--a lot of things that can be done by general practitioners-- simple kinds of things--uh, and this may not be the nice, right thing to say, but it drains some of the--of the gravy off of the orthodontic practice and leaves the orthodontist with some of the more difficult, challenging things--in other words, the uh--the easy stuff, quick money or whatever you want to--however you want to put it wouldn't be there, that that could be done by the--the general dentist. But it also meant that we taught orthodontists--our dental students--how to diagnose and interpret and I think we made a lot more patients--or orthodontics--because our students recognized problems 122:00and recognized things that would later on cause difficulties for the patient and he got them into treatment with an orthodontist early on. Well, Bill and uh, Ray got that going and I moved down with Harry and by this time our curriculum board was jammed. The second year looked terrible and we had to do something to back off. And we had tried to dump a lot of things when we created that we just thought were unnecessary, you didn't have to teach anymore and now this stuff was creeping in and we had to look at it and decide what can we take out of here? And uh, I couldn't get any volunteers to withdraw. Everybody was sure they had to have that there. And I guess there's a feeling among some people that the more hours you have, the more prestige you have and the more something or other. And uh, we weren't doing things on that basis here. If uh--if you could do it in five hours--great, you're a tremendous guy, you don't need fifty. Didn't get any place 123:00so finally Harry just made an A-one decision, we're going to cut that second year 20 percent, everybody takes a 20 percent loss. And then uh, he said, but you sit down and work that out with them. Obviously somebody who's down with very few hours can't--can't probably take much of a loss. And it was amazing, uh, stuff just drifted out of there and we loosened that up in no time at all and not with any apparent handicap created by it, we just got it out of there. And uh, we--we looked at a lot of other things and about that time, uh, we got into how to individualize curriculum, and how to use computers. And we had- -early into the use of computers, uh, we recruited Tim Sniff, he was in, uh, community dentistry, an educational psychologist with background in the use of computer teaching. He came in and uh, we worked up a five-year grant and developed our computer assisted teaching and our 124:00self-instructional program and it was the thing to do at that time and we went for it and we put a lot of effort in it. And it--it had--it's had a backlash in that oral biology had to spend an awful lot of time to try and put their course in the self-instructional format and it's not easy to do in that particular area, but they worked hard at it and at the sacrifice of their research activity. They virtually gave up research almost to get this other stuff done, and once you give something up, getting your momentum up to go again, it's really tough, for a couple of reasons, the faculty grows older and--and you--you're just not creative with the same enthusiasm you are when you're younger and it's--you have to change around and get your momentum going in another direction. So it--it was very difficult for that department and uh, we had to increase our class size. When the uh, Health 125:00Manpower Act was created to stimulate the growth of medical and dental professionals, the American Dental Association and the American Medical Association went to Congress and lobbied vigorously for them to provide money to expand our programs. We weren't anxious to expand here. We had a building that was designed for forty-eight people and that's what we felt fitted in here nicely and we were geared to that. Well, the Health Manpower Act was passed and it sort of had entitlement money, we thought and we took the money and went along with it and then Congress didn't see anything changing, the numbers weren't going up. So the regulations were written that if you were going to accept that money, you had to increase your entering class size by--and I'll make up numbers, I don't know--let's say 10 percent or 20 students, 126:00whichever was the greater. And uh, when that directive came through, I looked at it and I looked at the law and I read the law and I went through and through and again, I was naive, didn't know, that the law says one thing, but the interpretation is what counts. And uh, Harry and I went over to Dr. Willard and to Dr. Bost and we argued that this thing was that way and uh, I don't remember all the details of our discussions, but finally it was agreed that okay, we would not enlarge our class, we would put in an appeal. I'd been on a committee at--at uh, the uh, National Institute of Health level to look at structures of schools, how much space do you need and all that and we put together a big book on how many square feet you needed per student and how many study stations in the libraries and all that. And I took those numbers and said, we don't have it, we can't do it. And uh, we wrote up this 127:00thing to ask to be permitted to escape it and we had a committee put together and one of the members of the committee was Joe Henry who was dean at, uh, Howard University and uh, we had worked with Joe and I had ended up on a committee for how to improve the numbers of minorities going into school and it was interesting, uh, dealing with those people that--uh, minorities came to mean black and at the time this was all evolving though--disadvantaged was the other term and that came to mean black--and we had committee meetings in Washington with different groups, it became apparent that Kentucky--we had disadvantaged students and they were white. Because of the educational system in this state, they--a--a black student--going through schools in some northern cities were better prepared than students going through some of our schools at that time in history. So, uh--and we'd worked with Joe Henry on 128:00a lot of things and Harry had worked with him closely on some things. He was on the committee and he gave us permission to get off that--one year--we did not enlarge our class, we fought it and we won that one year. There were two other schools, I think Meharry and Oregon and Oregon never took the federal money. They--their state legislature said forget it, we'll support our schools and we'll do what we want. They never did take any of that federal money. The next year we were told we had no choice, we had to begin to enlarge. So we began ripping out seminar wings and ripping out latrines and doing whatever it took to create the space. And we did it, I think, very nicely. If you go through the place a lot of people would never suspect that they're sitting in what used to be the women's john, but uh, it looks--looks okay. Uh, we modified things then, with Harry as dean to the format 129:00of self-instruction, computer assisted instruction, we gave up our basic science labs over on the third floor and converted them into conference rooms and teaching laboratories, uh, and gave some of that space back to the uh, Medical Center for use with other activities. And as we grew, then a lot of things happened. Our student body had to go up, things were changing in medicine. Uh, Allied Health became--in with new programs and those beautiful study areas that we had and locker rooms for the students downstairs with a mixture of the medical and dental students were taken out. Neurosciences sits in most of that space now. Uh, the lounge that was down along the--the wing in the back is gone, it's all offices. The area where we had the coin machines and the lunch things--still got the glass doors in the corridor down there--but it--I guess every once in a while somebody wanted glass doors in those offices, uh, they left the doors when 130:00they made them into offices. And the--the place just got more and more jammed up and crowded. Uh, about the time--in '72--uh, we got interested in trying to move our program out. Uh, Harry had worked out a system with the people in community dentistry to put people out on extramural rotations. When Wes Young had been chairman of community dentistry, he had gotten a grant that let us get money to get all the state health trailers and take them up to Campton and in the summer time have a summer program for the students up there, taking care of kids in the area, doing restorative work for them. Kids lived at Pine Mountain in the old lodge that burned down and the--the uh, faculty were up there and from day one of our clinical activities here, we have had outreach things going on. That was not a particularly good thing 131:00that we did up there, instead of going up and teaching prevention we went up and treated things and uh--well, anyway--uh, looking back from here, we could have things a lot different I think and--and helped out. But as we moved along, we developed a system of--uh, that had been created at Iowa-- of putting our dental students out in practitioners' offices in the summer time and that was going good. Uh, then we read about a thing that uh, Swanson had developed out at uh, the University of Washington, uh, when he wrote an article and we had talked about Area Health Education Centers and the government had created things where you would--you know, they would give you money and you would go out and set up a spot that duplicated what you have here in an outreach location. Well, it didn't really im--improve--if you teach over here and you teach medical students to take care of tertiary care level kinds of things and do all of their care in a hospital in this 132:00kind of a setting and then they go out and go in private practice and now they've got to deal with hangnails and hemorrhoids, it's a pretty big come down from what it was. We were trying to get the dental students over that out there, but the medical students didn't have that same opportunity. And in the Area Health Education Centers all they were doing was going out and finding a big community hospital and re-establishing a faculty there and doing the same thing there that they did back here. Well, it would help to decompress you here. You could take part of your student body and put them out there. And North Carolina had a tremendous one going, had air--a set of airplanes that were flying their people around the state, in and out and in a long state like North Carolina--or Kentucky--it uh--it works out just fine. North Carolina looks like Kentucky flopped over--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

COSTICH: --if you look at it some time. Uh, I went over and looked at it and thought it was great. We came back and uh, we tried. Uh, I 133:00had now left working down here and gone across the street in the vice- president's office as an assistant to the vice-president for extramural kinds of things and uh, we were going to try and set up something here and we applied for one of those Area Health Education Center grants to try and capitalize on our program at Morehead. But we couldn't uh--we didn't get it. Uh, it probably was a lousy application, but we tried to--to do it and instead took that approach that we had here and using the thing that Swanson had described out in Washington, why not an area, uh, instead of a center a system. And we went to work to develop that.

[Pause in recording]

COSTICH: So the project then was to develop--how could we do this using- -capitalizing on what we had in Kentucky in the terms Area Health, 134:00uh--AD Districts--Area Development Districts--and use things of this nature. Uh, we had a whole lot of programs going at that time, there was a regional medical plan that was--that was a federally supported program that supplied access to our library for practitioners out in areas. And it was designed on--on service areas in metropolitan districts, sort of you passed over the border in a lot of places and uh, it was--in concept it was nice, but somehow we're politically oriented to our state borders and our county borders and things such as that and that eventually went by the wayside, but we used that and the AD districts and some other things and Swanson's suggestion of an area health education system. And Howard Bost, who probably uh--I think is one of the most creative people I've ever run into--uh, imaginative, uh, skillful--just really fun to be around, the way he can do things 135:00and come up with them. And uh, I did a lot of writing and he would do a lot of work on it and Dr. Bosomworth did a lot of work on it and uh, took that proposal and at that time--uh, Harry Moore had come to work at the dental school; he'd been in practice in Owensboro, he had known Governor Ford in Owensboro, and knew him well enough to go and take Harry Bohannon and Howard and Pete and go to Ford and present him with a proposal for the system in the state of Kentucky and he, is a quick hand also. Uh, he saw what it could mean in a lot of ways, I'm sure a lot of it political, but a lot of it in--in what it meant in service and it would mean a lot to us in education and the Area Health Education, uh, Syst--uh, AHES--Area Health Education System--thing 136:00was developed in the state and money came from the legislature and projects were to be developed in a way that the money could be tracked. The legislature didn't like giving money that was just dumped into a budget. And this way the money would come in and from that money you would then develop a plan and you would be reimbursed--you would sign a contract--and you would be in--reimbursed on the basis of what you did in that contract and not what you thought you might do in the proposal. Uh, you got some money to get going, but you could not just hide the money and squirrel it away and you had to have a plan and by this time Harry Bohannon had left here as dean and had gone with Dr. Albright uh, at the, uh, Council on Higher Education and Harry was just responsible for the whole health section of the thing. And he was the 137:00person then who at that level was administering and developing and in his usual style of getting things done and getting people involved and getting it laid out, got it--got it in operation. Well, uh, there were some things about it that uh, didn't pan out the way I thought they would. I thought that uh, we would--it would be mainly involving the health science centers at Kentucky and Louisville, but we had people uh, like Dr. Martin and uh--I can't think of the president of Morehead at that time--I think--

SMOOT: Was it Adrian Doran?

COSTICH: Dr. Doran. And they were astute people who saw a way of--of quick-jumping in with their allied health programs and grabbing money to support things that they wanted to do, or were going to get going, for example, the radiology technician teaching program at Morehead. Uh, Eastern Kentucky had something in every--wherever the money was 138:00available, uh, Dr. Martin was able to be there. And uh, it drained heavily on the thing for--for the financing and--and the--I don't want to use the word bickering, but it almost seemed like that--that went on in these area committee meetings--you formed uh, an Area Health Education, uh, System--an AHES--for this area or that area, usually combining a couple of--of AD districts and then you put a committee together in that area. And I was automatically on these committees and I traveled all over the state. If they had a meeting I went every place. The uh--I went to one in--in Mayfield one night, the uh--we had a blizzard--and I'd have to leave here about noon to get to Mayfield, to drive--drove in that miserable storm all the way to Mayfield to get down there, get to the hotel at seven-thirty--or the motel where they were going to have the meeting--to find a note, "Because of snow 139:00we've cancelled the meeting." (both laugh) The uh--I--I got to see all parts of the state, which has been really fun too. I've--I enjoyed the travel, seeing the places, but it did wear thin after a while, 'cause when I'd get through with the meeting in Ma--Mayfield, I'd jump in the car and I'd drive all the way back home and I'd get in here about five o'clock in the morning, get a couple hours sleep and be back over here. Uh, I just couldn't see making three days out of what could be done in the time of--pulling out one day, going to a meeting and then coming back the next day, which a lot of people choose to do, but it just didn't fit my style. Uh, it was fun working across the street and working with the Area Health Education System, but the money began to dry up. It became really tough driving around to all these places and, uh, my enthusiasm was going down and a lot of other things were 140:00happening in this place that just kind of drained the enthusiasm, so, uh, when we uh, got to uh--at one point I went in and told Pete I wanted to come back into teaching. And so we phased me out by going half-time there and half-time back here and came back over here finally and uh, uh, this--I've had a good time, I'm back here now, I've got no administrative responsibilities, I'm uh, just teaching the students, which I have fun doing. Uh, the work with Pete was interesting, he came as chairman of anesthesiology, and I came as chairman of this department. And when we started our graduate program outpatient and an--the anesthesia is an important part of being in oral surgery, and we wanted to get that going, and he was extremely helpful. He 141:00had moonlighted--he had gone to Ohio State for his anesthesia, they have an oral surgery program, the oral surgery residents were in that program up there, and he--some worked there; he went in the Navy and he moonlighted for a couple of oral surgeons in Milwaukee when he wa--was uh, at Great Lakes and uh, he said, "Fine, uh, go get it set up" and you--and uh, he wanted to rotate the residents in anesthesia over here to see ambulant anesthesia part time. People in his department weren't that enthusiastic about it, they uh--they had grown up in an era where they didn't see it and way back when I told you how we used to take care of patients in Rochester--into the emergency room in the morning and out in the afternoon--we had come through a--we had gone into a cycle where the only way to give a general anesthetic was the patient had to be admitted to the hospital the day before, stay all day and all night that they got it and couldn't go home until the next day. And uh, you would bereave that that was the only way you could--people 142:00would die if they didn't go through that kind of routine. Uh, and a lot of people as they came along in training, uh, felt that way. Anesthesiology went through a phase whe--where they wanted to create a system where nobody but an anesthesiologist could deliver an anesthetic and it became apparent they had to hang with a nurse anesthetist, they couldn't train enough anesthesiologists to do it. Well, we got our program going because Pete was so helpful in--in pushing it--and helping us out and he had participated in our teaching in anesthesia for our dental students and--and uh, everything had gone great. Uh, now, uh, the first guy that went through the program was Pete's anesthesiologist, resident, going through it over here, is now chairman of anesthesia at Louisville and when uh, John Mink went over to try and set things up over there, uh, he had no trouble at all getting going because this guy had been--been through it and seen it all. Well, the 143:00uh--as--as things moved along and as things got tight and we got into other problems, I got on the uh, uh, Bluegrass Subarea Health Planning Council. Uh, I ran for it one time and lost. They were surprised that anybody would come in and run for it, but uh, the group across the street thought it would be good to get somebody in there and uh, I ran for it a second time and made it. And Tony Goetz was the director of the thing at that time, uh, and I got very active in it and involved in it and believed in all the kinds of things they were trying to do in, uh, this area. And then when uh, Julian Carroll was governor, it was--suddenly the federal--feds came in with a new law, we had to get rid of the old, uh, A and B sections of the early--of the uh, health system and go to the system where you have the East Kentucky HSA and the West Kentucky HSA and the Certificate of Need and Licensing Board, 144:00now got their information straight from there, but in Kentucky we had subarea things that fed the East Kentucky and the East Kentucky fed the--the uh, um, Certificate of Need and License. Howard Bost had been chairman of the Certificate of Need and License and uh, Judge Miller, in Western Kentucky, had been chairman of the A committee; the subareas did their work on what was needed in health planning, they passed it up--and I think Kentucky had--was way out front in the way things were going in health planning in here. When uh, the system changed and the feds put some restrictions in it that didn't give us the flexibility we had once had, it made it a little more difficult. And uh, uh, things really got tough when the, uh, Humana Hospital decided they wanted to put a hospital in town here and they came in with a big 145:00campaign. They had people come to the subarea meeting with buttons on and they bussed in with those people and things to try and, you know, overwhelm the crowd, but they didn't succeed. And still looking at our data and what was there and how it should go, we voted against that hospital. Then it went to the East Kentucky HSA and by this time I was a member of the East Kentucky HSA also. Uh, it didn't go good there, it lost there. Uh, I believe they had anticipated the loss, because they did not--they had already scheduled a hearing, which came very shortly after they lost at the other thing. And I went to the hearing and uh, I made my comments at the hearing. And uh, the fact that I was making these comments and my name was appearing in the paper and things like that, caused a good bit of distress on this campus, 146:00uh, at higher levels. (laughs) And uh, they lost at the East Kentucky HSA, they then went to the--uh, I mean at the special hearing thing- -the hearing judge ruled against them there also and uh, then they went to the Certificate of Need and Licensing Board and I guess the Courier-Journal's covered that pretty thoroughly and everybody knows what happened there--uh, so that it's here. Um, with that disaster, we felt there was no point in having an East Kentucky HSA, it had been destroyed by uh, what we perceived to be a rigged set-up and uh, so we voted ourselves out of existence. But uh, meanwhile, back here things were getting more difficult financially and things were getting tighter. When Dr. Packer came in at dean--as dean, uh, almost the very first thing he had to do was chop three hundred thousand dollars 147:00or so out of the budget. That meant letting--letting some people go; uh, things started to fall back and cut back and it's been in a difficult spot. And the recession came along, a financial problem that hit everybody--gas stations felt there were too many gas stations, uh, grocery stores thought there were too many grocery stores and dentists thought there were too many dentists. Uh, and maybe there were for that particular time, but for an ordinary time, there were not. And so the economic thing had a compression and there were some dentists who made an awful lot of noise and hit the paper and so the Council on Higher Education decided--they got pressured--that they would put question out--a questionnaire out--to the dentists in Kentucky. It's one of those, "When did you stop beating you wife?" type of questionnaires. The--the questions were uh, "Do you have enough patients?" "Is your practice busy enough?" "Would you like to have more patients?" And this kind of question and uh, then they uh, added up 148:00the numbers and uh--the questionnaire went to all the licensed dentists in Kentucky. An awful lot of the dentists are not in Kentucky, they live in other places, it didn't deal with just the Kentucky dentists. The numbers got shaded to the percentages going to the advantage of uh, it would be nice to close a school. And everybody picks on the Council on Higher Education--they don't do anything--so this seemed like--here's--here's a target, I guess--this is my perception of it and I'm telling you things that I don't know factually, but what--how I perceived what has gone on--it looked like this was an easy mark, a small outfit and we'll close the dental school and--and uh, this will be the--the dental school. Uh, and they started after us. Well, we--uh, we had always filled our class, we've never--never-- failed to fill our class. In that particular lear-- year--Louisville was down ten students. They--they were short ten. Uh, and it began to have 149:00this kind of an impact, uh, along the way for them. They--they--they continue to have difficulty filling their classes. Uh, so the--the push was on to close a school and they asked the dentists of Kentucky which one would you close? Well, the numbers come out by the numbers of graduates and they had more alumni than we did. And the Council went along with their plans and came up with a few ----------?? plan last summer, uh, which uh, we were not happy with. Now, people feel the dental school is saved now. The dental school is probably in as much jeopardy as it's ever been in, whether it'll survive or not. The--uh, three or four years ago, a group of faculty here met with a group of people from administration in the Radisson Hotel and at that meeting, the faculty who were there were informed that Mr. Grissom, Governor 150:00Brown, W. T. Young, Humana, don't want this school to go on, that they are in control and their power is in Louisville and Louisville has the power to control things in this state and your school is not going to survive. (coughs) Well, that, you know--that's a little bit depressing when it comes back and that went on and then later, uh, as this thing grew, uh, we had a visit finally pressed uh, Dr. Bosomworth to get Dr. Singletary over here, and we're unique in that Dr. Singletary has not met many faculties or many colleges around here. I believe, as a total faculty, we may be the only one that he has ever met with, but my advice to them is that if he asks to come, don't do it, because it will be bad news. He came and told us there was no way we could 151:00win, that uh, the power was in Louisville, that he was not about to take on a fight that he couldn't win, and he didn't see that he could win this one, uh, but if we would just lay low and be quite, he would to try to work behind the scenes to see what could be done. So just be good boys, be quite, don't do anything and people believed him. It took him an hour through this thing and--and one thing I got to say is--he is--he is presidential in appearance; he's tall, he--he's got a good voice, he speaks well, he's got a head of hair--which a lot of us don't have--uh, he has a lot of those things going for him, but the thing that distresses me is confrontation is not what he likes, he avoids it--as I see it. So we lay low--and nothing happened and then things got uncomfortable again and he came a second time and spent 152:00an hour and fifteen minutes saying the same thing and uh, left--and I kept--I wanted to see the school--and keep looking at things and admiring what's here and uh, questioning things and talking to people and in the course of doing that, when I finally determined that more than half of this faculty did not believe what he was saying and wanted something to happen, I sat down and--and uh, decided we had to go to the Senate, because in the course of this time, he had met with the people at Louisville and when the Council was going to close one of the schools and uh, Swain got up at that meeting where they were going to decide to close a school and said he thought we ought to work out a way of sharing things together and that uh, he wan--didn't want to see this school closed--and uh, gave a very nice speech, and he's an 153:00impressive guy too. And he made--then met with the administration here and his people over there and decided that this school would be saved, but it would be saved on the basis that our orthodontic program would be eliminated--our graduate program--that they would get a prosthetics program--which they had never had before, no documentation or anything as the Council on Higher Education usually requires for these kinds of things-- they would get an endodontic program, which we had had at one time and--and had closed out and uh, that both schools would have their oral surgery programs, uh, they wouldn't monkey around with oral biology and some other things got left out. Uh, what it amounted to was--was some pretty good dollars and cents for Louisville and uh, gave them some things they'd never had before, uh, and left us in bad 154:00shape because ortho, uh, is an important part of our undergraduate curriculum and it also--because of the orthognathic program that had been developed here--is a major contributor to the success of our residency program in oral surgery. And with the loss of that ortho program, our operation numbers have gone down, our income has gone down, the hospital's income from that has gone down and there's been a significant financial impact as well as an academic impact. The academic one is the one that really troubles me because it--it puts us in bad shape. Well, I got--we lost our ortho and nothing was happening and he told us the same story again and people were unhappy. So I prepared some material and had a few people on the faculty here who felt strongly, as I did, go over it and help me put a speech together and I went to the Senate Council and I gave it. And I'd had it with 155:00the whole system, so I called the Courier and the Lexington paper and the Kernel and told them I would make a presentation to the Senate Council and thought they might find it interesting. Uh, the Kernel and the Courier sent reporters, the Lexington paper did not. And I uh, handed them, as they entered the room, the manuscript that I was going to read. I didn't want any mistakes--any errors--and uh, I made my presentation and the Senate Council agreed that I should then present this to the total Senate, that the fact that the ortho program had been administratively aler--eliminated, that the academic program had been tampered with by the administration without any input or consultation or participation by faculty, no looking at what is the structure of your program over there, what is the philosophy of what you have operating, just gone and uh, things torpedoed below the water line, as I look at it. Well, the uh, uh, minutes of that meeting caused a 156:00real furor; uh, it made Dr. Singletary unhappy; uh, it upset the whole thing and it threw out into the public what people would just as soon not have there. The next meeting of the Senate Council, they voted not to let me go to the Senate to present this thing, which was--in my opinion--a rather dumb thing to do, because I immediately had over fifty names on a petition, which--I could go to the Senate. I didn't have any trouble at all having the names on a petition right away. So I got to read the same speech to the Senate. Uh, the uh, minutes of the Senate Council were distorted because there were people there who're not ordinarily there and things got confused and we had a heck of a time straightening that out. But Dr. Packer took one heck of a 157:00beating in higher administration--central administration or whatever-- over this whole thing, that he wasn't keeping his troops in line, he wasn't keeping us under control. And he didn't know what I was going to do; I never--he never knew anything about it until the day I went to do it I told him I was on my way to do it. And uh, we eventually got all of the minutes part straightened out, but uh, he had taken a lot of abuse during the sessions when they were eliminating our ortho program and doing things, uh, he was called all kinds of-- I'm told-- uh, instructions not wanting to participate, not cooperating, all kinds of things like that. Uh, he's been in a very awkward spot and uh, as a result of all of this, uh, it makes it difficult for him with both the faculty and with administration, it's hard to--to operate. So at the present time, um, I've been very outspoken, about my disappointment. 158:00Uh, I've been unhappy with Dr. Bosomworth from the Humana Hospital thing on all through this, because uh, uh, he's a pragmatist and I'm an idealist and uh, those things just don't work out. Uh, I, you know, I can't say enough nice things about him as far as his cooperation in helping getting our educational program going. I don't think I've ever seen an anesthesiology department that was better than what he had when it was going here, uh, that part's worked out great. Now, the oral surgery department--and that's development, my--relationships with Ben Eiseman were interesting. We had a lot of nose to nose things. Uh, he agreed that when I came here, I came--I stipulated what we would be doing as procedures here, what would going--be going on--he told me they would never have a plastic surgery service here, that it was going to be a time getting the uh, uh, thing squared away. He said 159:00there wouldn't be a plastics department, there was a plastic department shortly and I did not get along at all with the person he brought in, we had terrible times. Uh, we--when I left as chairman, Ray White took over, he--he had--continued to have problems. The next chairman was no better than the one that was--prec--in plastics was no better than the first. Uh, when Ray left, Mark became chairman and Mark is an extremely smooth, good administrative type person who deals with problems and works them out and does a fantastic job. And he's been able to work things out over there and the--there's another chairman over there of course, also. So things are much better, uh, as far as that place is concerned. The hospital--uh, we used to fight over beds; uh, that is resolved, we don't have those fights anymore. Uh, when uh, Ward Griffen became chairman of surgery, uh, we did not hit it off well 160:00at all. He's my next--he's my next door neighbor.

SMOOT: Hmm.

COSTICH: But we could not hit it at all. He--his philosophy and mine were different. Uh, his work style and things were different than mine. And uh, he would--at four o'clock on a Friday afternoon, I'd find a memo on my desk saying you're no longer permitted to admit patients and we would have two patients scheduled for Monday in the OR and uh, I didn't like the way in which he did the things he did, uh- -and uh, we never--as neighbors, you know, our only conversation was, your grass looks good or something like that. We just didn't--and that was if we happened to by accident bump into each other face to face. Uh, it wasn't a--a good neighbor relationship. Uh, with uh--the way things are going now, Mark has done well, and he got along, with Ward, he worked it out. Uh, he worked it out with McRoberts, ----------?? 161:00he was acting. And uh, he was a member of the committee that selected a new chairman there. Uh, he's also a very astute person in that uh, he was chairman of the committee to pick the new dean of medicine--of nursing; now that's--that takes talent, to be able to do that and pull it off. And he did uh--he did good there. So I would say that relationship is good, except that we're wiped out by the--way in which ortho--we're just knocked out. Uh, it--it would be very difficult unless we can get things straightened around. Uh, in my opinion, Louisville has not done what they agreed to do, still not--it's two years down the road and things aren't straightened out and uh, it's a mess. And I--I'm not saying let's get turned around, I don't see the dental school being anything more than going back to be just a plain, old, run of the mill, common garden variety, 1940 dental school, but 162:00uh--from having been right at the top of the list. And it's got a faculty here that--just pride is what's keeping it going right now, they will not give up, they're--they're hanging in there. But I don't know how much longer it can go on.

SMOOT: Perhaps we should stop there and get together again.

COSTICH: Okay.

SMOOT: I appreciate all the time (Costich laughs) you've given me this morning and I'll b--I'll get in touch and we'll set up another meeting.

[End of interview.]

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