0:00

SMOOT: Dr. Albright, to begin this morning, would you tell me a little bit about yourself and your background, your--your home life, uh, your community environment, uh, education and so forth?

ALBRIGHT: (laughs) Most of this interview could uh, be taken up with that, if I can remember that! (Smoot laughs) Uh, I uh, came to UK in 1954, and I was uh, here until 1972--I believe--with the exception of the preceding year when I was a Fulbright Scholar in Belgium. Uh, the nineteen or so years at UK were uh, very good years for me and uh, I think at least some of those years, the--the university was on the move, uh, educationally--

1:00

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --research wise and so on. I've um--well, following my stint here, uh, I was uh, executive director of the Council on Higher Education for four years and from there I went to uh, Northern Kentucky University and was there seven years and then--since then uh, I've been on three or four projects and uh, I'm still on two or three. So uh, that gets me up uh--up to date. The um, community involvement, uh, I've always been active in at least one or two things, uh, uh, including some uh, church work earlier not so much anymore. Not that 2:00I've been saved, but (Smoot laughs) uh, and uh--

SMOOT: Which church?

ALBRIGHT: The Methodist.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --and uh, I don't know quite how that affiliation occurred except uh, Jacob Albright, back uh--way back there were three brothers who came to the United States in 1726 and um, Jacob Albright founded the Evangelical Church in America and the Evangelical Church uh, subsequently uh, affiliated with the--the Methodist and maybe that's- -maybe that's the way it came about. (Smoot laughs) Uh, out of that early church founding came uh, Albright College in Pennsylvania, a small liberal arts uh, college, and um, (laughs) when I was uh, looking uh, 3:00around to go to college and I needed help because uh, the family was somewhat uh, poverty stricken, uh, I wr--wrote to Albright College, uh, but uh, they didn't have any--they didn't seem to have much interest, so that it became a question of whether I went to DePaul University or went to Hanover uh, rather than uh, one I guess that was uh, probably my first interest. Anyway, (both laugh) just by name I suppose. Uh, I have uh, uh--Mrs. Albright and I have uh, two sons, uh, one of whom is uh, with the Defense Intelligence Agency and I guess he is uh, said to 4:00be one of the maybe three experts on Russian capabilities. The other one is uh--they're--they're twins--the other one is um, with DuPont and at the moment he is uh--he and another fellow are charged with the upgrading of twelve thousand of uh, DuPont's managers and he's getting ready to go to Brazil and Australia and Geneva. The other one is just planning from uh, the Scandanavian countries, I don't know why, but--he doesn't--doesn't say much. (Smoot laugh)

SMOOT: I gu--don't suppose he can.

ALBRIGHT: Right.

SMOOT: And it sounds like very interesting jobs that they both have, however.

ALBRIGHT: Yes. Uh, and uh, an interesting thing to me is uh, contrary 5:00to--to what seems to be a condition of a lot of young people, these-- these two are just the most enthusiastic about what they're doing. They just bubble over when they talk about--ask them about it and uh, I suppose that makes a lot of difference. Um, one of them uh, had a--had three tours in Vietnam, uh, almost lost him at one time, but uh, an attitude that's refreshing. It's not uh--it's not sour. The other one happened to be in uh--in the Air Force in nuclear intelligence. Now, I don't know what that is, but (both laugh) it uh--sort of fascinating. 6:00And there are four grandchildren--uh, three girls and one boy.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: So the--those uh, four or six or eight, however you want to count, uh, have a great deal of interest for Mrs. Albright and me.

SMOOT: That's fabulous. Let me ask you--

ALBRIGHT: Please.

SMOOT: --did you have the same sort of enthusiasm that your sons had perhaps when you came to Kentucky in 1954?

ALBRIGHT: Yes.

SMOOT: Uh, you came here as the director of the Bureau of School Services in the College of Education and Chairman of the Division of uh, Educational Administration, is that right?

ALBRIGHT: True.

SMOOT: Okay. Could you tell me a little bit about the University of Kentucky in 1954?

ALBRIGHT: (laughs) Well, it was uh, a somewhat uh, uh, sedate institution, I think. Uh, it uh, was uh, generally looked upon more 7:00as a--as a social institution, I believe, that it was the place for uh, the children of eminent uh, families to come. That doesn't mean that others didn't come. If I remember correctly, at that time, the university was predominantly Fayette County and the contiguous counties. Seemed to me that, uh, if I remember it well, it was something like 80 percent of the student body at that time came from uh, locally--came uh, from Fayette County and the immediately surrounding counties, which uh--well, there were some--there were 8:00the--there were a few from outside the state, uh, from those states that did not at that time provide adequate higher education for their own--New Jersey being one state and uh, then tuition was low and that made it attractive to some out of state people. The um, regionals, at that time, had not become uh, universities and uh, I think probably the cooperation among institutions at that time was a bit better that it turned--uh turned out to be uh, later. Uh, of course UK at that time, when I came here, was not a large institution.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I suppose uh--then the sixties hit and it uh, doubled 9:00very--very rapidly. So uh--and I think that uh, there was not the--the innovation, there was not the movement to create new--new programs, new combinations, new ideas, uh, very much at that time.

SMOOT: Um-hm. When you came in 1954, this was an interesting year to have arrived at UK. It was also in the earlier stages of the development of the Medical Center at the University of Kentucky. In fact, there had been quite a bit of talk about it for many years, uh, but in 1954 and '55, '56--

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --uh, you see the transformation from uh, nothing to uh, the building starting to go up. Uh, had--what had you heard about the 10:00development of a medical center at UK?

ALBRIGHT: What did I hear?

SMOOT: Yeah, what--what had you heard as far as the development of a medical center, uh, in these early stages, uh while you were at UK?

ALBRIGHT: Well, uh, two or three things. One, the University of Louisville at the time um, was uh, a municipal institution. It uh, had not uh, fanned out, uh, so to speak, uh, very much. That was--and that um, uh, better health service was needed in the state than we had. Another thing was uh--was the political aspect of a--of another medical center. If uh--depending upon who was governor at the time, 11:00uh, the uh--the interest in--in a second medical center became more acute, uh, even though uh, there were some public monies going into the University of uh, Louisville at the time. But uh, Louisville was looked upon, I think generally in the state, as uh, that city.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And that uh, it was not uh, much interested in extending itself, uh, as a land grant institution is supposed to extend itself. And so uh, along about '54 or '55, '56, the interest picked up.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And uh, of course uh, Mr. Chandler was uh, I'll tell you, 12:00extremely instrumental in that and, uh, it seemed that uh, Happy was not enchanted with the University of Louisville and so uh, decided that there should be one here.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Do you think that his motivations were primarily political or do you think that it was because of a--a real need that he saw in the state of Kentucky to develop a medical center at UK?

ALBRIGHT: I think it was mixed.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: I--I'm sure he thought there was a need, but I'm also confident that he did not overlook the political aspects of it either--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --and um, uh, probably the University of Louisville did not play its cards very well.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But uh, anyway, I think that uh--well, the advent of the 13:00Medical Center here caused some changes in the University of Louisville.

SMOOT: Um-hm. For example?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I think it caused--it caused them to pay more attention to the health sciences--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --but uh, also uh, probably raised the awareness or greater awareness of um, their need to become a publically supported institution--above what they were getting--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, at the time and that--what they were getting was very limited.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But it--it followed very much uh, the same pattern, uh, as 14:00with other municipal universities in the country and especially those with medical centers. The University of Cincinnati is an example, there's uh, Tulsa and Wichita and practically all of them came to be uh, state universities simply because the municipalities uh, uh, considered them such a burden; and they were.

SMOOT: What was--what was your earliest involvement with the University of Kentucky Medical Center?

ALBRIGHT: It was uh--let's see, I've uh--I've forgotten just what I was at the time, but in uh--I think a couple of years after I came, uh, I 15:00changed positions and uh, anyway, the earliest involvement uh, I had was uh, with reference to certain impingements of curricular matters--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: uh, of uh--of the Medical Center upon uh, certain disciplines in the--the main campus.

SMOOT: Um-hm. This--was this when you were acting dean in the College of Adult and Extension Education? This was in the--you--I think you took that position in '57, then you--provost in '60.

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

SMOOT: Became provost in '60.

ALBRIGHT: It was--it--it came a bit after '57--

SMOOT: Okay.

ALBRIGHT: --if I remember correctly and the--um, the--the point that I'm 16:00making about the curricular impingements, uh--that was particularly uh, after I became provost.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And uh, there was a--there was an ambivalence, uh, I think, on the campus about the advent of the Medical Center. One, in general faculty and staff uh, welcomed it, were glad because uh, it gave, I think uh, an added prestige to the institution. It uh, added uh, another dimension that the university didn't have, but the--uh, there were--there were apprehensions because uh--well, for example, uh, the 17:00physicians are going to be paid more than we are. Uh, some of us used the argument--the countervailing argu--argument--that uh, that's one way you get other salaries up, faculty salaries in particular. Uh, and as it happened that's--that uh, came to be. The uh--the curricular uh, problems arose, uh, more in certain disciplines than in others. For example, um, the microbiologists on campus--on main campus, uh--

SMOOT: Morris Scherago?

ALBRIGHT: Yes--felt that uh, they weren't taken into account, they 18:00weren't considered. Uh, uh, of course the--most people know that uh, medical people know pretty much what they want and they think they can provide it and they do and that uh, uh, cooperation therefore is not the primary objective and um, chemistry to a little--to some extent, the um--the biochemistry--there was uh, this feeling in several of those disciplines that uh, well, if they'd give us--if they--if the university would give us the money and the people, we could do the teaching for the Medical Center. Uh, the Medical Center doesn't look 19:00at it that way or did not look at it that way and uh, there's some justification, but uh, that caused conflicts and uh, some of us were uh, in the middle of it. (laughs)

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But fascinating, nevertheless.

SMOOT: Do you think that the Medical Center had strong arguments in their favor or weak arguments? Uh, what were some of the particulars of this, if I may probe a little bit more deeply into the difficulties on curriculum uh, development and uh, departmental uh, formulations and formations--

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --uh, in the Medical Center versus the main campus?

ALBRIGHT: Well, uh, again, I think the--the uh, Medical Center knew quite well, uh, what kinds of uh, curriculum they--they needed--

20:00

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --wanted.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: I think uh, others on the campus were not very familiar with uh, what a medical center is like. I don't think very many of them had been in a medical center, maybe--except as patients. Uh, therefore uh, uh, I think some on the campus were not as--not as uh, knowledgeable. Also, uh, this Medical Center, with uh, Dr. Willard uh particularly, was not going to develop any conventional curriculum anyway, and therefore, uh there was less chance for people on the main campus to know or to understand what was going on and then building a medical 21:00center--they simply didn't have time to uh, educate everybody else.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Did this create a lot of resentment on main campus towards the Med Center?

ALBRIGHT: It uh, created some, yes.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And uh, uh, I think uh, a kind of uh, apprehension that uh, the Medical Center would swallow uh, the host--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --and uh, would uh, uh, get uh, an undue lion's share of the--of the resources. Um, now, some others didn't give a hoot, but um, for those disciplines on uh, on which the Medical Center impinged, uh, that's were the main apprehension was, I think. There was some, uh, of the same feeling--although not as pronounced uh, I think--in the 22:00uh, social sciences. Uh, the Medical Center was uh, going the route of behavioral science and uh, at that time that was uh, something of a newer wrinkle. Uh, there was another uh, conflict uh, with reference to nursing, subsequently, uh, particularly with reference to chemistry. The uh--the medical people, uh, or some of the medical people uh, felt that the chemistry ought to be a bit different, uh, the--the substance should be a bit different. And I uh, think that the medical people were less wedded to the conventional means of delivering education--

23:00

SMOOT: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: --than the main campus and uh, I think that uh--you asked about justification, uh, this seemed to me to be one of the justifications that the Medical Center had. That uh, we do not propose to--to deliver, uh, the education we provide uh, in the same ways that has been conventional or traditional in um, university circles. And uh, I think that uh, proved to be a--a justifiable tenant.

SMOOT: Um-hm. You knew Dr. Willard fairly well, did you not?

ALBRIGHT: Yes.

SMOOT: Could you tell me a little bit about Dr. Willard?

ALBRIGHT: Um, I thought Dr. Willard was a--was a fine person. I 24:00thought he was uh, uh, a great uh, human being, really. Uh, I think he had had some visions of a medical center for the future and uh, he had an opportunity here to try some of those ideas. Uh, he was a--a reasonable person. Uh, that doesn't mean that he uh, folded if it got to a certain point. He could be uh, quite forceful and uh, could uh-- could hold his ground very well and uh, I've seen him do it. Um, he uh, was uh, highly respected. He--he was not a--he was not an autocrat, 25:00in the sense that uh, we sometimes think of uh, medical people; uh, but uh, usually was willing to listen and uh, to accommodate, if you had a good point and--and try to work it out.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I would think that a vice-president for a medical center and now a chancellor has a very difficult job. Uh, it's almost as bad as the president.

SMOOT: Almost?

ALBRIGHT: Almost. (Smoot laugh) Uh, I know uh--at one point uh--in talking with uh, one of the governors--and this will illustrate why 26:00I say almost--uh, he asked about uh--something about higher education and I said "There's one thing--or there are three things--that an institution, if it's interested in any degree of tranquility, uh, doesn't need." And he said, "What are those?" And uh, I said, "An agricultural college, a football team and a medical center." (both laugh)

SMOOT: So much for tranquility at UK.

ALBRIGHT: Yeah (both laugh). It's uh--of course that's a bit overdrawn, but uh it--it illustrates uh, some of the things--for instance in--I know we're not talking about agriculture, but uh, I'll illustrate this. The poultry people and the--and the uh, animal people sometimes 27:00don't (laughs) get along very well and then the--you've got an uproar if you come out with uh, Fescue 31. Uh, it uh--it--it caused a--in this institution caused a big uproar and caused somebody to have some troubles, uh, then later--thirty years later, they name a new seed for this person that caused all the trouble (both laugh). I mean, we have strange rituals in--in higher education.

SMOOT: Indeed.

ALBRIGHT: (both laugh) And you're going through, uh--or will shortly-- one of them.

SMOOT: Yes. This is--I'd like to just get it over with. (both laugh) Uh, let me get back to asking you a bit more about the Med Center because uh, unfortunately we're limited this morning in time, but- -uh, Dr. Willard not only had this--these visions, he actually uh, 28:00formalized this in a--in a--in a philosophy of the Medical Center. Were you aware of this philosophy?

ALBRIGHT: Uh, more from a standpoint of--of uh, its manifestations--

SMOOT: Okay.

ALBRIGHT: --than uh, uh, reading or listening to a whole discourse on--

SMOOT: Very good.

ALBRIGHT: --the philosophy.

SMOOT: Could you tell me your impressions of the philosophy of the Medical Center?

ALBRIGHT: Well, one uh--one of the prime items I think was uh, Dr. Willard's notion that the purpose of the Medical Center was to increase, uh, the health care of people in this state and uh, that the Medical Center was a prime vehicle for doing that. Consequently, 29:00uh, as uh, I saw it unfold, he thought uh, instruction and research and service were all com--uh, combined into a--a purpose of uh, developing health care for people, uh, throughout Kentucky. Obviously the preparation of uh, health uh, people was uh, a major means, but I don't think he ever lost sight of um, what it was ultimately that uh, they were trying to do. Another uh, thing that uh, impressed me, that it wasn't--and he--he was not solely concerned with the preparation of 30:00physicians as a sole means for delivering health service. Uh, he was certainly interested in oral health care, he was interested in the--in the supporting uh, professions, um, such as uh, allied health and uh, nursing and so on. So that uh, it seemed to me that uh--that I--I go more on what I sense are manifestations of a philosophy--(clears throat)--excuse me, than I do of what somebody says. There was a-- 31:00there was a--a--a spirit too, that uh, he helped to generate greatly, uh, a kind of an adventure of the early people who came here. Uh, you could sort of sense that they felt this was a--this was an adventure, this was uh, somewhat experimental, it was uh, somewhat visionary. It was a chance to prove some things that they felt and thought for some time and so, um, he had a--he had a knack for uh, developing that. Of course I think most of the early people anyway brought some of that with them. I think they were selected for that uh--that reason.

SMOOT: Well, let me ask you a little bit more about those people since you bring them up. Uh, he--he actually brought in a team, uh, and of 32:00course expanded from there. Uh, you obviously had an opportunity to get in t--uh, contact with these people, get to know these people that uh, Dr. Willard was bringing in. Uh, what were your impressions of his--of his team?

ALBRIGHT: Uh, well, I th--uh, have thought that they were able people.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Um, I thought uh, probably uh, Howard Bost, for example, uh, had a--had a vision on a number of things--uh, um, health insurance for example, uh--was a--was a part of the--the whole package of uh, health care and that was early. Uh, I think the uh--the team that was brought 33:00in, uh, were highly respected uh, people. Um, I think that uh--they may not have always been the greatest administrators, but then that probably was uh, not too bad, uh, for the--in the early stages.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: And where you needed some kind of uh--of more fluid--when it--when it was uh, more amorphous--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --and you needed uh, some people who were adaptable, were somewhat flexible, where the outline of--of uh, precision, uh, was not necessary, not even advisable, if you were going to have--if you 34:00were going to try some things. And so there was more, uh, I think, an attitude of uh, well let's shape it this way and try it; if we need to make adjustments in it, we shall. That takes a different kind of uh, person than one who uh, already knows what the answers are.

SMOOT: Who else did you know besides Dr. Bost?

ALBRIGHT: Oh uh--well, let's see--yeah, I knew uh, the um, person they brought in behavioral science, uh, Bob Straus.

SMOOT: Bob Straus.

ALBRIGHT: Um, the uh, dental uh, dean, uh--

35:00

SMOOT: Al Morris.

ALBRIGHT: Yes. And um--uh, let's see--Jarecky.

SMOOT: Roy Jarecky.

ALBRIGHT: Um, Schwert.

SMOOT: George Schwert.

ALBRIGHT: And um--there must have been some more.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, Joe Hamburg, uh, uh, Pisacano (laughs) and um--well, I guess uh, early I knew most of them--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --that uh--who were brought in.

SMOOT: Okay. What were your impressions of the impact that the 36:00programs, initiated at the Medical Center here at UK, were having on the state and as well--well, let's just start at the--with the microcosmic and work out uh--

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --locally, uh, regionally, statewide, et cetera?

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm. Well, I think the advent in the early uh, years of the Medical Center, uh, had an impact on all of this institution. I--I think it caused, at least in some areas and some disciplines, caused a rethinking of uh, what those disciplines were doing and how they could uh, deliver uh, education. More than that, I think uh, the Medical Center people demonstrated a--uh, a kind of an attitude about change. 37:00Uh, we--we're not interested in just keeping something because it is old or is--is uh--is traditional, but let's find some better ways of doing things. And I think that spirit began to permeate. There was uh--UK, uh--or some institutions, I'll say--uh, at certain periods in their existence are somewhat like uh, Norman England, uh, made up of a series of fiefdoms, uh, ducal retreats I guess, and it's very difficult to uh, put those into some kind of cohesion, uh, where the 38:00whole represents more than just the addition of its parts. Uh, there was uh--there were probably more opportunities for the Medical Center to influence that than they took advantage of, but nevertheless, uh, it--it was a whole new element in this uh, hundred year old institution that I think had uh, considerable impact. Another impact that uh, the--the Medical Center really demonstrated, uh, early the importance of research and the fact that outside monies can be--can be gained, if 39:00you've got good people and you have good proposals to do it. Um, so I- -I th--and--and uh, uh, the emphasis on--on recognition for work outside of the institution.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: By--by having people on the--on the faculty who do gain recognition because of uh, their teaching and their research. That certainly is uh, an important uh, addition. Uh, probably the Medical Center could have worked a little uh, more closely with some elements of the university. Uh, there were probably opportunities for the Medical Center to have worked with agriculture some. Uh, realizing 40:00that this uh, desire--this uh, objective of extending health care to people in the state, maybe the--maybe the extension service was a ready made vehicle for getting some of that done.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But uh, the--there was a general notion that the Medical Center was more interested in being self-contained to a--to a greater extent than um, maybe any--any other unit on the campus.

SMOOT: Was this your impression?

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I think uh, to some extent that's true, but I'll also say that it uh, was justified. When you're--you're starting something, 41:00you don't--you've got to get that uh, thing moving and going and up and running and all of that and that's a tremendous job. So uh, I think it was--was justified to a considerable extent, but I'm not sure that that wouldn't have been the case anyway.

[Pause in recording.]

SMOOT: What were your impressions about the impact of the Medical Center, um, on the state?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that in a number of ways, the--the Medical Center did impact the state. Uh, for example, one of the--one of the early manifestations of this desire to extend health care in the state 42:00was uh, the area health--well, it was to get the residents and so on- -I've forgotten now just what the name of that was--uh, was to get uh, residents out into the state with the hope that uh, more of them would stay in state. I don't know that that has happened, but it did have an impact. Um, it--it got more people out in the state acquainted with the Medical Center and what it was trying to do and probably it uh, did cause some to stay within the state and to practice within the state; however, the concentration of um--of physicians is still predominantly 43:00in the cities. Uh, you look at the telephone book in Lexington now and uh, I think (laughs)--I think uh--and--and you do the same thing with reference to Louisville or Bowling Green, Paducah, Ashland, but on a different level--different scale--and uh--but that had some--something- -incidentally the--the veterinarians follow the same uh, concentration (both laugh) pattern that the physicians do--

SMOOT: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: --and I guess that's because there are more dogs in the cities 44:00than there are in the country. (Smoot laughs) Uh, anyway--

SMOOT: Think that would be made up with cows and horses--

ALBRIGHT: Yeah.

SMOOT: --out on the farms. (laughs)

[Pause in recording.]

SMOOT: That's all right.

ALBRIGHT: Then uh, I think uh, this Medical Center had an impact on the U of L Medical Center. Uh, I think it caused uh, Louisville to pick up its ears and pick up uh--well, the same sort of interest that this one--this one displayed. So uh, it had an impact there. Uh, I think some of the uh--some of the innovations here impacted the state, for example uh, uh, certain specializations that uh, caused people to look 45:00to this uh, institution, if nothing more than uh, ambulance service, uh, helicopter service, uh, bringing people in, uh, from all over. Um, it had a--it had an impact on the uh, legislature too. Uh, the legislature realized for the first time that uh--that uh, the funding of a medical center is no small business and uh, so (laughs) uh, it got attention for that and a number of other reasons. And by and large, 46:00uh, I think this Medical Center handled it quite well. The uh--so the impact, uh, of it uh--well, it extended to a greater interest in hospitals, um, clinics, uh, the formation of uh, a collection of specialties in uh, practice.

SMOOT: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: Raised the consciousness of--of health in the state immeasurably, I think.

SMOOT: Before even coming to Kentucky, you had worked in education in Tennessee--

ALBRIGHT: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --and once in Kentucky at the university and then beyond uh, UK, certainly as president of Northern Kentucky University and uh, work 47:00with Council on Higher Education, uh, a variety of other capacities. Um, I say this to set up a question on the support that the University of Kentucky has received, particularly for the Medical Center of course, uh, from the state. Do you think that the state has been giving adequate support to the University of Kentucky Medical Center?

ALBRIGHT: In terms of uh, what is needed to be done, I'd say no. It--the state has not adequately supported it. Uh, the advent of the Physician Service Program, as a vehicle for, uh, getting more money into the Medical Center bloodstream--

48:00

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, is--I think attests to the fact that the state is uh, not- -however, that is not peculiar to Kentucky. Uh, that same device is used elsewhere. And one uh--that raises some--a number of questions, uh, but uh, I think generally uh--Kentucky being a poor state--it may have done proportionately well, but not adequate so far as the needs of the Medical Center is concerned.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Uh, what more could be done do you think?

ALBRIGHT: Pardon?

SMOOT: What more could be done?

ALBRIGHT: Well, uh, I think uh, one of the--one of the uh, things that's needed in Kentucky is uh, the development--the--uh, of a higher wealth 49:00base, uh, which means a greater economic development in the state, uh, so that uh--and this means the development of certain kinds of jobs, uh, mainly professional, financial, uh, jobs. I--I think that uh--that probably the--the--there are a number of things the--the university can do to uh, help increase this, but that's not just the Medical Center, it's the whole--whole university, but the Medical Center would be a very important part. For example, there is uh, a unique combination 50:00of factors here, uh, in um, say in the development of pharmaceutical laboratories--there's a College of Pharmacy, there's uh, uh, medicine, there's even a nearby uh, College of Agriculture with certain kinds of uh, pharmaceutical needs and the--uh, university has enough land, for example, that uh, research laboratories could be, I think uh, enticed here. Uh, this uh--this brings in people who are professional, higher paid individuals and there are all sorts of spin--spin-offs. Uh, I 51:00don't yet see the Medical Center--uh, it's--it's talking about it--but I don't see much movement in that direction. Uh, one reason I mention that, there--uh, there's a widow here in town whose husband was a--a veterinary medicine person on the agricultural faculty. He developed a vaccine for uh, an influenza virus in horses (laughs) that first appeared in human beings in 1887, but I think she probably receives thirty-five or forty thousand dollars in royalties a year, just off of the sale of that vaccine, but that vaccine's produced at--in uh, Dodge. Now, there is not a--a pharmaceutical center in the United 52:00States. There's one in British Columbia that uh, would embrace several different components. Well, I use that as an example of something that can be done; this is getting a bit away from uh, your question, uh, but it--there's something that this institution can do to help. The--the legislature, uh, to me, and again it's been--uh, it's not uh, peculiar to University of Kentucky, um, is not willing to give some open end 53:00funds. Uh, they want uh--seemingly want to control it before they give it and uh, I think uh, in many areas uh, in the university today, uh, that open end uh, funding is uh--and you uh, account for it later, is a much better way to get some--keep--to keep experimental, innovative, uh, new ideas afloat and uh, I e--even think there's some in history-- maybe--maybe not in medical history, but--(both laugh)

SMOOT: Do think certain governors have been more supportive of the Medical Center than others?

ALBRIGHT: Yes.

54:00

SMOOT: Could you enumerate uh, those governors who have been particularly helpful towards the Medical Center?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I think uh, Mr. Chandler is certainly one, maybe the first one. Um, I would have to go on the basis of uh--of uh, how much they recommended in the executive budgets and I don't happen to have that before me, but uh, I would uh--well, I know Mr. Chandler was very supportive and of course, uh, the overall university funding, uh, over the last say, seven or eight years has uh, really not kept pace and uh--but the proportion of--of the Medical Center--I just don't have 55:00those figures before me and that's what--the way I would judge, is whether--what they recommended uh, in the executive budgets and--and uh, what they were willing to support.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Of course uh, the--the way budgets, uh, have uh, occurred in this state--and I happen to believe it's a better way--is uh, that there're not so many earmarked funds as--as in some states where you have a line item, uh, executive budget, um, that doesn't give you very much flexibility, but on the other hand, when it comes time to apportion the appropriation to the various elements in the university, that's where the critical factor comes in. Now, there are some on 56:00the campus who did uh, feel that in that process the Medical Center probably gained more than--proportionately more than some of the other units on campus.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I wish I--I wish I had those uh--I've seen them all, but I don't uh, recall offhand just what those uh, recommendations were.

SMOOT: You've mentioned on several--in several--at several points that uh, the University of Louisville and the University of Kentucky have this relationship certainly in terms of medical centers the--being the only two institutions within Kentucky having medical schools and uh, the other uh, colleges and uh, institutions that accrue around such an institution. Um, do you think that the development of the Medical 57:00Center at Kentucky has been a positive factor on the development of the Medical Center at uh, Louisville? Uh, I'll stop there and--and get a response.

ALBRIGHT: Yes, I think so.

SMOOT: Okay.

ALBRIGHT: Um, I think the University of Louisville Medical Center is a better one now certainly than it was and I think a--a prime factor in that was the--was uh, the UK Medical Center.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Do you recall the, uh--do you recall any animosity uh, existing from the development of a medical center at Kentucky, uh, from the people at Louisville? I--I have heard talk that uh--and seen articles to the effect--that uh, there were people in Louisville--uh, and statewide for that matter--that resented the fact that there was going to be a medical center at the University of Kentucky.

58:00

ALBRIGHT: Well, I think so. Uh, I--I think there were some feelings, uh, some--uh, somewhat an--uh, antagonistic.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, uh, others who thought that one medical center for Kentucky was enough and there probably, uh, a greater number of people who feel that way today. Not that they--not that they'd give up one, but uh, uh, there is a considerable, I think uh, notion in the state that uh, Kentucky can ill afford two first rate medical centers, that uh, being a poor state, it has uh--it would have a hard time uh, 59:00adequately funding one.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, but I--I am convinced that uh, UK had a decided effect on the improvement of the Medical Center at Louisville, but there are people who uh, say that had the money been put into the University of Louisville, uh, it would have been a--a first rate uh, medical school anyway.

SMOOT: And consequently would have fulfilled the needs of the state?

ALBRIGHT: Yes.

SMOOT: Um-hm. And that is some of the argument that you hear lately.

ALBRIGHT: Sure--sure.

SMOOT: Uh, of course the furor more recently has been over the dental school in particular, uh, but it's been about consolidation, uh, uh, elimination of--of programs that have been uh--that are duplicating 60:00themselves as--as they put it. Uh, what do you think? Uh, is Kentucky going to continue on with two medical centers? Is Kentucky going to have to eliminate some of this? Is Kentucky going to have to look outside to bring in people--for example the Toyota industry coming in- -uh, to generate new funds so we can become a richer state and afford these kinds of things? What--what's going to be done?

ALBRIGHT: Well, there isn't any doubt in my mind that some--some steps will have to be taken on a state level to uh, build up uh, this--this uh, state economically and um, there are some stirrings now that indicate that we might get around to it sometime. Uh, it means uh--it means, as I mentioned earlier, uh, providing some incentives for 61:00bringing in certain kinds of developments. Uh, there's no use uh, providing more jobs in Wendy's and McDonald's 'cause that doesn't--that really increases the--the burden. So what we're talking about is uh-- for instance, locally would be uh, the development of Fayette County to a--say a financial center--uh, insurance and banking and these sorts of things--and it's becoming that more and more, the development of um, research uh, facilities that are related to the university, these sorts of things too. And the same thing could be done in Louisville. I 62:00don't foresee uh, the discontinuance of uh, one of the medical centers anytime soon. Uh, the--the dental school question uh, was being pushed largely as an economic matter--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, fundamentally. The uh--the profession of uh, dentistry, the practice of it, uh, just wasn't uh, very lucrative for a lot of dentists and uh, consequently the pressure began to build up. Now, it's interesting that uh, several years ago the College of Dentistry at Louisville, uh, was in bad shape--that was in the seventies--and uh--real bad shape--and uh, probably again, we did not need two dental 63:00schools, but the discontinuance of one should have occurred much earlier, and the signs were there--it was uh--simply a matter of--of people reading them.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I was at the council when the q--the question of the new hospital came up--uh, in Louisville--and uh, that uh, started out as forty-two million, I believe, and grew to eighty something, it's probably closer to a hundred now, but the--the facts and the figures 64:00uh, in Louisville showed clearly that a new hospital was not the answer, but it was a political decision. And I mean there was some uh, blood let--and I think a little of mine, uh, because there just wasn't any way you could justify it and now we come along and here Humana has to take it over, in effect, to run it. This hospital here is probably under question too. Um, I don't know whether you can manage one or not. It--it may be one of those uh fuzzy, furry animals that uh, you just--you--it's difficult to get a hold of and especially I suppose, when it's run by physicians. But uh, the uh--I--just picking up 65:00your point about uh, dentistry. If the dental schools would uh, get concerned about the oral health of people in this state and find ways in which uh, faculty and support staff could be moved to--in--in--uh, to regional centers for example, I think we'd uh, have a different uh, response from the people in the state and I think the oral health would be better. I think the uh--the uh, outlook of the dentists would be different that it is now. And uh, so it isn't--it isn't always a ma--a matter of closing out something, but nothing else has been proposed.

66:00

SMOOT: Hmm.

ALBRIGHT: And--and there are other alternatives.

SMOOT: Could you give me an idea of what these alternatives might be, some of them would be?

ALBRIGHT: Well, I was just speaking--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --of one with--

SMOOT: Right.

ALBRIGHT: --reference to the uh, College of Dentistry. Um, and that's uh--that's possible to uh--to extend--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --uh, service to--well, U of L could do it for the western part, UK in the central and eastern.

SMOOT: Well, what if--what if somebody's comes back and says, "Well, Dr. Albright, uh, what about the Appalachian Regional Hospitals?" "We--we send people out to those hospitals to work. Uh, we have uh, more physicians from the University of Kentucky in local communities than uh, any other institution as far as representation and if it wasn't for the University of Kentucky certainly Eastern Kentucky would still be 67:00massively under served and it's now at least adequately served." Uh, you know, these are arguments that you hear--

ALBRIGHT: Oh, sure.

SMOOT: --I'm sure.

ALBRIGHT: Sure.

SMOOT: Uh, what do you say?

ALBRIGHT: But I would say, uh, speaking--still speaking of dentistry--

SMOOT: Yes.

ALBRIGHT: We don't have that same sort of thing happening. So it is-- it's--there--there's an alternative to closing a dental school--

SMOOT: I see.

ALBRIGHT: --and that--that alternative concerns the movement of some of those services outside of uh, Lexington--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --to outlying areas and I think it would change a number of attitudes with reference to it, as well as improve oral health.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: So, uh--and I'm not uh, at all convinced that uh, maybe uh, the practice of dentistry wouldn't improve; at least it'd be firsthand knowledge of what some of the problems are out there.

68:00

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: But, you know uh, we tend to become ingrained and somewhat uh, uh, protective and uh, with the--with the dental schools, uh, I--I think uh, that that issue will come up again, uh, and I--I doubt whether the cooperation between the two dental schools--if it continues as it presently is--will produce much.

SMOOT: You said that uh, at twenty till eleven you had to leave. I'll ask you if uh, there is anything else you would like to add (Albright laughs) to what we've been discussing. There's--there's such--these 69:00are such large issues that you really can't--

ALBRIGHT: Right.

SMOOT: --cover it in the time that we've had this morning.

ALBRIGHT: Right.

SMOOT: Perhaps you'd be willing to talk with me again sometime.

ALBRIGHT: Uh, I would.

SMOOT: Okay.

ALBRIGHT: I don't know what else I could uh, add, except maybe some detail.

SMOOT: Some detail would be nice and it's--it's a different perspective as well, than--than what I would get say from an administrator currently involved with these problems at the--the Medical Center and so forth. Is there anything you'd like to add this morning to what we've--we've discussed?

ALBRIGHT: I don't uh--don't think of uh, uh, anything in particular. Um, my uh, comments are somewhat rambling of course, but they come from two or three different vantage points. One, um, having been internally in the institution and another with a--with the council in which uh, you looked at it from a state viewpoint and from all of 70:00the institutions uh, perspective as well as you could, and then from the vantage point of uh, being outside of those two orbits and uh, consequently um, uh, there are at least three different uh--uh, angles, I guess. So I, uh--I don't know that that explains my rambling, but uh, at--at least uh, my mind is uh--on several occasions this morning- -looked at it from what I remember of the internal aspects at--at UK and then the--some of the state aspects and then from having uh, uh, been outside some. So uh, I think one of the--one of the problems of the 71:00Medical Center, as well as uh, all of UK, uh, we don't do a very good job--in higher education--of uh, helping people to understand what the future could be. Uh, we--we tend to say we need so much more money and if we get more money, we'll go and do good with it. That no longer will hold water. We've got to be able to say, "Here are the things or the services," or so on, that need to be provided; "Here are the ways 72:00in which we propose to go at these," the programs that we can provide that will do these things and, "Here's what it will take." We don't go at it that way. We say "Here's what it will take," and then sort of uh, slough off the other two and say, "You just give it to us and we'll do good." I--I think that uh--I've been very much impressed by uh, the amount of outside money that uh, the Medical Center has been able to attract and it probably will grow. Now this means, I think that um, uh, the general recognition that uh, this is a good medical center. It's uh, probably not a Mayo's yet, uh, it's certainly not 73:00a Menninger's, in that particular field, and uh, this indicates--the reason I say that, to an outsider it indicates, for example, a weakness, or a limitation in the current Medical Center. And I would guess that uh, over these next years that there'll have to be more attention paid to certain aspects of health than--than we've given in the past and it may even come at some bit of a sacrifice on the part of some of the other uh, programs or--or parts of uh, medical education.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: I uh, (laughs) had a--I think it may still be in the--in my 74:00sm--small station wagon, uh, a book--and I've carried it around with me--the title of it is Roman Medicine. It's kind of fascinating. In some--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: --some ways I suspect we're a little bit beyond the Roman medicine stage, but in some respects (both laugh) I'm not so--I'm not so sure. I uh--these--we're--we're beyond, but we're still at that uh, stage which says that there's so much more, that how can we hope to keep uh, uh, things just the same as they are now?

SMOOT: Um-hm.

ALBRIGHT: Mr. Smoot, I thank you much for having me.

SMOOT: I thank you very much Dr. Albright. I've enjoyed it and hope we can get together and talk again sometime.

ALBRIGHT: I'd like to.

75:00

SMOOT: Thank you.

[End of interview.]

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