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SMOOT: Dr. Oswald, to begin would you tell me a little bit about your background--where you were born, where you were raised and your--your family life, community life?

OSWALD: I was born in uh, Minneapolis, Minnesota. Uh, uh, my father was at that time a member of the faculty of the University of Minnesota, uh, was an agricultural botanist who--specialist particularly in uh, identification and control of weeds. I guess perhaps my early in-- ultimate interest is in plant science and botany and uh, perhaps came- -undoubtedly did come--from my father. Uh, as uh, a youngster, around age five, uh, my father uh, became pub--uh, editor and publisher of the Seed World, which uh, was the principal--then the principal uh--s--uh, trade magazine of the seed industry located in Chicago, so I went to 1:00school uh, in La Grange, Illinois, where we lived. It's a suburb about fifteen miles west of Chicago, uh, graduating from high school, uh, there in 1934. Indeed just last uh, year I uh, uh, returned to the fiftieth reunion of my high school which was uh, quite an experience. Uh, I was all set to go to uh, uh, Iowa State. Uh, these were depression times and the thought of going to a very expensive school, uh, uh, perhaps in the Ivy League or something, I would have loved, uh, but still my--I had this interest in agriculture, uh, but at that time a very fine liberal arts college in Indiana was uh, providing rector 2:00scholarships for uh, men--I guess that would be uh, um, illegal now- -but uh, (Smoot laughs) it was a very strong liberal arts college that had become uh, quite uh, uneven in its uh, mix of men and women and this was an effort to uh, uh, bring uh, men to the college. This is DePauw University in Greencastle, Indiana, so I went there on a four- year scholarship--non-football--uh, fro--uh, from 1934 to '38. Nineteen thirty-eight, uh, upon graduation, I went to the University of California uh, at uh, both Berkley and Davis--uh, did part of my work 3:00at one campus and part at another--uh, to uh, do my Ph.D. uh--and this was in the field of plant pathology uh, which is a specialty--uh, very important specialty--of plant science, uh, and I was very fortunate in being able to finish just three weeks before--in '42--before I went into the Navy as a uh, uh--this was the Na--Navy V7 program, uh, where I uh, did a little training at Notre Dame and a little at Northwestern and uh, became a naval officer and went into torpedo boats and I was uh--a PT boat captain uh, and later a division commander uh, for the 4:00four--four and a half years that I was in the Navy serving uh, um, about two years in the Mediterranean, uh, where I was on some fifty PT boat missions and indeed was in New Orleans on my way to the Pacific when um, uh, the war ended and uh, uh, after uh, finishing up my Navy responsibilities, uh, took a position as a beginning instructor on the faculty of the University of California at Davis. That would have been in 1946. Uh, this was um, uh--Davis at that time was just uh, uh, emerging into a small, uh, more agricultural and technological 5:00school from what was more the experiential farm of the university and since those days it has grown into a full-scale university with medical school, law school, et cetera, but I was there, uh, uh, from 1946 to 1954. The last year I was there, I was fortunate in being one of the early people to receive a Fulbright research grant and uh, with my uh, uh, family uh, I uh, spent a year in the Netherlands, uh, working on some of the uh, very interesting, technical phases of uh, beginning 6:00to use the science of serology, uh, on plant disease which uh, uh, was just in its infancy at that point. I might back up and say that uh, my wi--I was uh, married in 1945 to uh, a young lady uh, who was a native of Birmingham, Alabama, who was in New Orleans uh, teaching at a country day uh, uh, school and uh, uh, by--when--by the time we went to uh, Holland, we had two daughters, uh, then five and seven, and then uh, at--while I was uh in uh, the Netherlands, uh, I was offered 7:00the position as chairman of the Department of Plant Pathology at um, Raleigh in North Carolina State. Um, I was in the awkward position of having a uh, commitment from a sabbatical to go back to California for a year. Uh, I thought sure California would release me from that commitment, but their response was to make me chairman of plant pathology at Berkley (Smoot laughs). Uh, so we moved to Berkley, which was the headquarters of the camp--of the department. Now there's a--a very distinct department at both campuses, Uh, but then it was joined and uh, uh, I began my work at Berkley in 1955, I believe it was. Uh, in uh, 1957, I was tapped by a gentleman whose name you may have 8:00heard -- uh, Clark Kerr, uh--who was at that time the chancellor of the campus at Berkley and uh, uh, he had this practice of bringing in every--each year a couple of faculty to serve without portfolio, uh, to represent him as a member of the academic part of the university at functions that he himself could not attend, uh, and it was a fascinating experience, particularly for me in that about three months after I started this, I uh, uh, found myself in a very interesting assignment. Uh, the president of the University of California--that 9:00would include UCLA, Berkley and now nine other campuses including Davis--uh retired after twenty-eight years and Dr. Kerr was named the next president and I was given the assignment--naive as I was in--about administration, still thinking about plant diseases and applying what I learned in Holland--uh, I was given the job of being the go-between. The incoming president and the outgoing president, uh, who had not been on the closest of terms--uh not so much personally, but uh, there still was not established uh, clearly where the authority of the chancellor of the campus ended and where the authority of the overall 10:00president uh, asserted itself and of course that's still going on today in--at many universities that are organized in that manner. Uh, so uh, when Dr. Kerr became president in 1958, I told him my year of his--of service was up and I was going back to the department at which time he said, "Well now, you know more about uh, the specifics of this than I do." "You stay with me just--at least a year as special assistant to me," and uh, to make a long story short, by 1963 I had moved through several different titles and at the time--in 1963 when I was contacted by the University of Kentucky, uh, to explore the possibility of going there, I was then uh, vice-president for administration, which was 11:00another name for just uh, about everything that came the president's way and this relationship with Dr. Kerr has remained to this very day. He went on to become a very, uh, uh, uh--in my view, a ve--very uh, famous person and from the--and spokesman for higher education, but in the view of many uh, he was the first target of the student unrest and Berkley's name became associated with that and uh, indeed uh, he was uh--well, it was while I was at the University of Kentucky--was--was fired uh, during uh, uh, a real debate with the man who's now our president, uh, then Governor Reagan, who was very uh, uh, determined to put down the student problems at Ber--at Berkley and their choice 12:00of methods were very different. Uh, but anyway, I went in 1963 to the University of--of uh, Kentucky. Uh, in 1968, uh, a new president of the University of California, a Dr. Charles Hitch who uh, had become really quite famous, he was one of the whiz kids of McNamara when McNamara first became Secretary of Defense, uh, and it was uh, Charlie Hitch who first uh, initiated the program, you have program budgeting uh, which uh, has uh, been uh, looked upon by some with great favor and others with great concern, but nevertheless--uh, uh, uh, uh feeling 13:00that perhaps uh, uh, I had uh, made uh, uh, what contribution I could at the University of--of Kentucky, uh, and uh, feeling that--and--and seeing immediate uh, uh, opportunities, uh, uh, I returned to California as the executive vice-president--uh, the--the number two person in the whole system of uh, then uh, some hundred thousand students uh, and about ten thousand faculty--and I was the person to whom the nine chancellors of the campuses uh, reported, but also (laughs) I was--went back there uh, just at the time of the worst of the--of the uh, uh, student unrest period and uh, Mr. Hitch, uh, indicating what terrible 14:00financial problems the university was--was getting into, said that he'd concentrate on that and would I sort of concentrate on the student matters? (both laugh) I couldn't have been there in two rougher years at probably one of the roughest universities and I spent an inordinate amount of time with people like Eldridge Cleaver and Angela Davis. Those names might be fam--ring a tone to somebody.

SMOOT: Indeed.

OSWALD: Uh, and then in 19, uh, 70, I was invited uh, to come back to Penn State. Uh, my first inclination was uh, probably not, but as I came back and saw, uh, an opportunity that was so similar to what I 15:00found so rewarding at UK--that is working with uh, an extended campus uh, through a system of--they're called community colleges in Kentucky, we call them commonwealth campuses in Pennsylvania--uh, and I uh, found that those were uh, just many of them in their infancy. They- -uh, actual numbers were pretty well complete, uh, but uh, it really told me that here was an institution that was really interested in extending higher education to all parts of the state and Pennsylvania- -surprisingly to me, although I now understand it, but surprising then--was that it it d--did not have any system of community colleges 16:00at all, which was not true of most of the major population states and there was town after town that was two hundred thousand in size that had no public higher education, uh, for people that just couldn't afford to come away to school and uh, they came--the leadership in towns such as Erie--uh, uh, it's not a town, it's a large city--Erie and--and York and--and uh, Scranton and Harrisburg--uh towns such as that uh, uh, came forward with--with monies uh, which the university then uh, uh, joined and uh, so this really was a--was a factor and that's where we're sitting now--on one of these campuses--where 17:00I've chosen to uh, have my retirement site and so that brought me to Penn State. Uh, another thing was the fact that I uh, so thoroughly enjoyed my experience at the University of Kentucky in the uh, initial building of a medical school--and a good one--and I saw that same opportunity, just by coincidence, coming uh, here or ahead of me here in--in Pennsylvania--although the problems were totally different--is what uh, had to be--uh, what the issues were, uh, but nevertheless, uh, I graduated the first uh, class of M.D.s at UK and I graduated the first class at uh--at Penn State some uh--would it be uh? Six years later and then I uh, was here at Penn State--while I was here 18:00at Penn State--I became uh, quite active on the national scene. I was chairman of the American Council on Education, uh one year. I was uh, president of the Association of American Universities which are the uh, fifty--approximately fifty--sort of major research and--and uh, uh, professional universities--twenty-five public, twenty-five private, uh, and uh, it includes the--all of the Ivy League and all of the Big Ten and--and--and so forth and I found myself working at--at that level a good bit in Washington which was very rewarding and I enjoyed that. 19:00Penn State gave me the opportunity since it was a member of that group and uh, I retired in 1983 and uh, uh, I'm finding uh, retirement uh, again a--a very different, but uh, still rewarding part. The first year was a little tough because, you know, after you've been on the line say, uh well, I sort of started in '57 you might say, when Dr. Kerr first called me and told me I'd be in it for a year uh, and I uh, sum up would it be uh, some uh, twenty-five years later--twenty-six years later--I uh, uh, found myself the first day wondering, you know, why aren't I doing something uh, (Smoot laughs) or why--or--uh, am I- -should I feel guilty and--but I've gotten to where I don't feel guilty 20:00at all. (Smoot laughs) Uh, I'm doing s--I'm on uh, several corporate boards. Uh, one of the most interesting is General Public Utilities which runs Three Mile Island, so I've been through the--

SMOOT: Hmm.

OSWALD: --whole Three Mile Island issue and uh, I shouldn't say - that's not quite correct--I came in just after the--the accident. Uh, you must--you should have seen the student newspaper the day I--it was announced that I was to be a board member. Uh, I made a--what I thought was a noble attempt to explain uh, that perhaps uh, I could make some contributions to that board and--and uh--in uh, a non-evil way (Smoot laughs), but uh, uh, it was uh--it was uh, an interesting-- but it's been very rewarding. I had one of Penn State's most uh, active alumni during the period of my presidency and very helpful was a man 21:00by the name of William Schreyer, uh, who now is the chief executive officer and--and chairman of Merrill Lynch, nationally and inte-- internationally. In fact, he has the position that Mr. Regan, who is now with the president, used to have before he got into government and he has--uh, I'm sure through his good offices, I have been put on some of the interesting uh, boards that involve some of the foreign activities of uh, Merrill Lynch and so uh, it's uh--it's not been at all uh, boring (Smoot laughs). Uh, we have moved since, to uh--from State College at the time of retirement to Philadelphia where my oldest daughter lives, uh, who's married to an attorney in Philadelphia, a young man who's--uh, who's really made quite a contribution. He was 22:00in--in the governor's uh, uh, staff as insurance commissioner for five years before he chose to go into practice for himself. My second daughter is uh--ha--is not married, but working in New York City and we get to see her often and of course here in Philadelphia our oldest daughter is uh, uh--they have a five year old granddaughter and part of my calendar now says babysitting certain hours (Smoot laughs). In fact, next Wednesday, uh, if you could see my day book, it says uh, four--it says one p.m. to four p.m., Sarah (Smoot laughs). Now, I didn't used to have that at UK (both laugh) or at--at uh, Cal, uh, but uh--and my son uh, went on to Cornell and then to a master's in 23:00public health at Minnesota and is uh, a middle management officer in one of the largest health maintenance organizations--an HMO--and so it seems like uh, all of the uh--all of the uh--the family in some way--my daughter in New York is working with a uh, organization that's uh, assisting uh, interns and residents in the medical schools of the universities of New York, so it seems like all of us have--then with my son-in-law having been in the insurance end of things a lot of which is health, uh, uh, indeed all of that--just three days ago kept me uh, uh, off a jury which I was not displeased (Smoot laughs). I was called for jury duty and uh, uh, my name was called among the early ones to sit in the box to be interviewed and when I announced--when they--I 24:00uh, indicated that I had had a great deal of experience (laughs) in the medical area although I am not an M.D. uh, and I have--uh, what my three children were involved with, uh, I was dismissed very quickly (both laugh) because this turned out to be an accident case involving a uh, a uh, fairly large uh, suit that was uh, being uh, tried and so I uh--uh, uh, I've got other things to do although I know you should uh, serve when called. (laughs) Well, that was too long, but uh--

SMOOT: Not at all, no.

OSWALD: --but uh, it was an attempt to try to uh, put this into some kind of a framework.

SMOOT: Were you approached by anybody from the University of Kentucky when the--when it was made clear that Dr. Dickey was going to step down from that position or did you see the advertisement and just apply?

OSWALD: No, no--no--no, the--the, uh first contact I had was uh, from 25:00uh, one of their uh, distinguished--distinguished professors--uh, Stephen Dodge--who uh, was a personal friend. He was the head of--I don't think he was the head maybe, but he was the most--one of the most well-known plant pathologists and of course I had known him through my activities as a scientist and uh, he called me. I can't remember whether he was on the committee, uh, or not, I th--I sort of think he was, but I'm not sure, but anyway he called me and asked me if I would be interested in coming back and uh--and visiting if--if uh, I were invited and uh, uh, at that time um, uh, I th--had guess gotten a little of the administrative bug in my--in my blood and uh, uh, he 26:00told me partic--I think it was Steve that first told me about the uh, big job ahead in--in--in campus building that uh, was uh, facing UK and--and they uh, were hoping to get somebody with uh, uh, experience in a--in a multi-campus university, which UK was just emerging into and uh, so I guess with that kind then--and I was very fond of Steve and so I first went back uh, uh, under those auspices and then subsequently I was invited back by the trustees to visit with--with them--

And uh--and uh, I think uh, made my decision sometime in uh,--in May of 1953 and I think I--I'd have to look that up--I think I reported on the 27:00scene in September of '53.

SMOOT: Six--1963?

OSWALD: Nineteen sixty-three, yeah.

SMOOT: I understand from--I saw a brief newspaper article on uh--on the selection process and uh, Misters John Hicks, A. D. Albright and Paul Sharp were mentioned along with your name as the--

OSWALD: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --as the leading candidates for the presidency--

OSWALD: Um-hm.

SMOOT: --at the university.

OSWALD: Who was the fir--what was the first name?

SMOOT: Uh, Dr. John Hicks.

OSWALD: Oh yes, he was at Purdue.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: Yes, I knew John.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: I knew John and I knew Paul, uh, uh, and of A. D. who be--be-- was the vice-pre--was the executive vice-president or vice-president of academic affairs I guess.

SMOOT: That's right. So you decided to come, uh, following your discussions with the members of the board of trustees, et cetera including Dr. Angelucci--your friend Dr. Ralph Angelucci--was a member.

OSWALD: Oh yes, he was the--of course he was very active in that uh--in 28:00that discussion.

SMOOT: So was it the idea that this was going to be an--an up and coming institution--there was a lot of growth uh, forecast for the University of Kentucky, that really sold you on the fact that this would be a great place to begin or--

OSWALD: Well, I--yes--

SMOOT: --supposedly?

OSWALD: --uh, uh--I--as I say, it was an institution that was uh--uh, looked like it was uh, really uh, anxious to uh, uh--to uh, move ahead. There was a uh, uh--I never used the word, but there was a word used to me sometime--that maybe we're too provincial, uh, in--in Kentucky. We need uh, uh, uh, new blood, uh, some new uh--and particularly as we face this uh, legislative uh, mandate to uh, administer the uh, commonwealth--or the--the community colleges--that uh, they recognize 29:00that it was a somewhat of a new ball game or--or at least an expanded ball game--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --uh, and they were--they were really an--and that was--uh, uh, by that time the uh, uh--this new uh, and to me very attractive young governor, Ned Breathitt, had been elected. He had not yet gone into office, uh, but uh--but at the same time Governor Combs expressed it--both these two men uh, uh, lead me to believe and uh--and they were correct that uh, there was a sentiment for uh, uh, uh--assisting the university, uh, in doing this and uh, it just sent--I just sort of 30:00sensed that there was a uh, receptivity. Uh, there was a recognition, I think, that uh--not about so much me personally--but that I came out of a university that was recognized as one of the great--probably the greatest--uh, of the uh--most distinguished of the public universities in the country and that perhaps a little of that might have rubbed off on me and I--I think all those were--were factors and uh--and it was very attractive. Uh, the people were very attractive and very hospitable and of course Mrs. Oswald, Rose, felt very much at home and--and uh, we laughed a little as we took on the position is that I grew up, as I said, in Chicago and she grew up in Birmingham and we figured that Lexington was just halfway between each, (Smoot laughs) you know, that maybe we had reached our great compromise, you know, as 31:00a married couple.

SMOOT: (laughs) Uh-hm. So your--your first impressions were--of the University of Kentucky--were very good.

OSWALD: Oh, they were good right up to the end--they were good right up to the end. Uh, I just sensed there was a uh--a possibility, uh, uh, that there would be a receptivity to--to change that would have to accompany this sort of additional role that uh, the university uh, was uh, uh, going into. Uh, I had uh, had the fortune of being uh, literally schooled by Clark Kerr as a person that looked beyond the first year, uh, and he was a great uh, uh, planner as well as an act--uh, an action person and uh, uh, as we talked in my coming I uh, 32:00talked a good bit about the need for uh, a--a long range uh, plan that accompanied our--our movement. Uh, we talked a good bit about the Medical Center and--and uh, um, merging it closer to the university, uh, uh, and there were some specifics that uh--that uh, probably had to be done. Uh, it was uh, in my view, uh, I found it when I first came to be operating a little independent of the university and uh--but we may get to that later.

SMOOT: Well, what--what were your mission and goals? Uh, when you--when you came into the University of Kentucky obviously there--the state had mandated certain, uh, plans that they wanted to see accomplished 33:00within a certain number of years and so forth, but you obviously had your own plans as well--your own ideas, uh, as to where--directions the university should be going in. Uh, can you tell me a little bit about that?

OSWALD: Well, I--I was interested in, of course, uh, uh, uh, meeting as best I could what were the uh, commitments uh, to the state and--and the responsibilities to the state, but I was very anxious to do it within the context of uh--of excellence, uh, of improving the excellence of the university, of uh, being an institution that could attract uh, uh, faculty, of uh--of high quality, uh, perhaps to uh--to uh, change some of the uh, more traditional where uh--this is where uh, arguments always uh, begin and anxieties uh, jump uh, when there 34:00are to be some long uh, time rules and--and regulations, uh, but uh, I indicated that uh--that uh, uh, I was a person that uh, there'd probably be change under if I--if they brought me and uh, uh, I was encouraged uh, uh, by the uh, people like Ralph uh, to uh--that this is what they wanted and uh, uh, I felt uh, Kentucky had the uh, alumni support and it had the uh, affection of the state uh, generally, uh, and that there was a lot of potential that uh, perhaps uh, uh--could be met that uh, perhaps in other times couldn't be met and I spoke about 35:00this--this wasn't just unique in Kentucky--this was a period that in many states, uh, uh, there was an appreciation of universities--uh, what had the universities done since World War II? They had taken in the uh--and expanded to meet this uh, unbelievable increase in the number of students. Uh, they had uh, met the uh, national scare of uh, Sputnik uh, by uh, strengthening their research programs and their science programs and uh they were very high on the nation's uh, love list at that particular point. Uh, there had not uh, evolved uh, any student unrest. There was a new president uh, uh, who was the youngest president in many, many years--going back clear to Teddy Roosevelt--who 36:00was uh, I--I think, exciting the nation. It was a--it was uh, a high moment. The univer--the nation was sort of on a high at that point and uh, I detected that very definitely uh, uh, the first time I met Ned Breathitt. He's a very special uh, person to me in that uh--not that he ever personally uh, uh, did anything for me that he--that uh, he wouldn't have done for anyone else, but that he--he--he sensed it, uh, and uh, uh, so I--these are just the factors that uh, I'm looking back now a good number of years, but I still feel them.

SMOOT: Hmm. Obviously you were made aware of the history of the development of a Medical Center at the University of Kentucky when you came there. It had been a long road in getting uh, support within 37:00the state, uh the funding certainly and uh, finally in--when Governor Chandler was elected to his second term of office as governor the support came and at that time they brought in a--a team, from Syracuse primarily, to administer the Medical Center, admitted their first class in 1960 and uh, as you had mentioned earlier you were there to hand out the diplomas to the first graduating class of physicians.

OSWALD: And deal with many problems prior to that (both laugh).

SMOOT: Okay. Why don't you tell me about some of those problems uh, that were--that were facing you when you came to Kentucky regarding the Medical Center?

OSWALD: Well, uh, first of all, I had had--I had uh, been fortunate at the University of California in my responsibilities of having dealt with uh, uh, the Medical Center at UCLA. and the Medical Center at San Francisco and uh, had spent a great deal of time on the emerging 38:00studies which led to the--the Medical Center at the University of California at San Diego, so that I--I wasn't uh, uh--well, I just-- let's just say I was fortunate to have had some background in seeing uh, and dealing with a medical center that had been operating for fifty years, one that had been operating at UCLA for about ten years and one that was still on the drawing board at San Diego. So--so I'd had a little exposure which uh, made me, I guess, a little less naive, uh, and--and a little more understanding an--about it. First off, let me say that my--uh, as I met the c--the people, starting with Dr. Willard and uh--and Tom Whayne uh, as I remember uh, very warmly uh, and then 39:00the uh, department chairmen. Uh, I must say that Department of Surgery uh, is uh, a--something about which I'm sure there has been something written uh, as to the number of people out of that initial Department of Surgery that went on to head surgery departments in outstanding medical schools all over the country and as Dr. Eiseman had been brought there, uh, uh, Frank Spencer who went to NYU, Rene Menguy, who went to the University of Chicago and of course the head of medicine, uh, Ed Pellegrino, who's uh, had almost any position he's wanted uh, ending up as a university president at Catholic University and then uh, not--finding after three years he wanted to go back to medicine and he's 40:00uh, now a distinguished professor at Georgetown an--but he--he built the Medical Center at Stony Brook. Uh, he came out of that initial group at UK That was a marvelous group and I have a theory and I think it's more than a theory as to how UK was able to get that quality of people and I just picked names that I remember that flash back that I've had more to deal with. Uh, Pete Bosomworth was one of the early people, Al Morris, in the depart--in--in--in, uh--is--went on to become one of the nation's leaders in dentistry, uh, but this was one of the first medical centers starting from scratch since World War II. There may have been one or two others, but this--Florida maybe, about the same time--but this was one of the very first. Uh, there were a lot 41:00of young doctors that had had war ex--that had had war experience, experience that they never could have gotten in--in any other way--sad as it was. Uh, there was--medicine was changing and changing rapidly. The--we were uh, still, however, before the Medicare and Medicaid, uh, the--which changed things further, but uh, uh, there was a rapidly changing field and in the older, uh, distinguished--Harvard, Johns Hopkins, uh, University of California at San--San Francisco--uh, they were pretty ivy covered and they were very traditional and--yeah--

SMOOT: May we pause a moment?

[Pause in recording.]

OSWALD: --they were very traditional and a, uh--the opportunities 42:00to start something from scratch, uh, and put in new ideas and new approaches, uh, without all this ivy that uh, I use uh, just illustrative--ivy means uh, uh, length and--and maybe greatness, but it also means rigidness--and there was no rigidness there in a sense. Uh, Dr. Willard was a person who uh, uh--he had his strengths and he had his weaknesses. One of his greatest strengths I think was a judge of people and uh--and--and although I don't believe I have ever heard him quite articulate this the way I am, uh, uh, I think that this was one of the first and uh, exciting impressions that I got when I came to the Medical Center. Uh, on the opposite side, uh, I got a lot of things 43:00whister--pered in my ear the first uh, year or first few months or so that uh, uh, was uh, a feeling on the established part of the university that the Medical Center was going to cost so much money and things were uh, going so quote "Lush" for them that uh, you've got to get that bunch under control and uh, it was perhaps a lot of what you might call natural uh, envy and so forth, but--but uh, there was obviously a, uh, uh--although there were ties, uh, there was a little feeling of they and us and we and they, uh, that I sensed uh, was natural, but it also had to be--uh, had to be looked at uh, very carefully and I 44:00think the day that uh--the day that uh--uh, uh, and it was fairly early on--that I got a call from an assistant dean at the Medical Center uh, telling me that Dr. Willard was going to Frankfort the--in two days to--with his principal staff to give the budget request for the Medical Center to the state officials and uh, uh, would I like to come along? Well, (laughs) uh, uh, I uh, think I uh, frightened a few people by my response in that I indicated that--that any budget presentation uh, 45:00to the state for any part of the university will be made by me and uh, let's just uh, change this around to where the budget request that Dr. Willard would've--being made to the state would be made to me and to the staff from central university that I would uh, bring with me and uh, uh, the word came back that, uh, of course this is what they would do, but that the chairmen, uh, particularly uh, Ben Eiseman, who was really quite a--uh, uh, outspoken, he and I became very, very close friends, but very uh--very direct with each other, uh, but I'll uh--and this is--this is a--something that I haven't thought of in years, but I got a call that, would I come over and meet, uh, and--and discuss 46:00with the chairmen what my uh, role was going to be as it related to the Medical Center because they needed to understand it, (Smoot laughs) 'cause they didn't understand the message that had come back from my office and so I remember going over to the Medical Center, uh, to Bill's office and I looked through a--there was a sort of a--a window, uh, leading into a conference room and I saw all of--these ten or twelve uh, people all in a white coat that is their uniform in a sense, and uh, so as I went through Bill's office--he was waiting for me to bring me in and introduce me--I saw hanging on a--on a coat hanger uh, a white coat and I said, "Bill," uh, "I'd like to borrow that white 47:00coat. I know your arms are a good bit longer than mine, but I can roll up the sleeves." He said, "Well, what do you mean?" And I said, "Well, I--I want to just, you know, be on the same level they are," (Smoot laughs) and uh, this really caught these people by (laughs) a bit of surprise when I walked in in a white coat. Uh, and I said uh--I said uh, "Good morning fellow scientists," you know, and uh, uh, this was not an acrimonious meeting at all. It was a sort of a--it was what you'd call a sparring meeting, you know--uh, understanding each other. But, I just indicated that uh--that uh, we had to be uh--we had to be uh, very certain how the budget--and I said--and then I think I uh, I did uh, alleviate maybe some fears of uh--of uh, what would be uh, 48:00incorrect interference of a president. I said I'd already done a lot of reading about the origins of the Medical Center and uh, what some of its missions were and the fact that one of its missions, and again recognizing this was before Medicare, before Medicaid and so forth, that one of its missions was going to serve as the indigent hospital of the--uh, the hospital would serve as an indigent hospital for the state--primarily Eastern Kentucky. I don't remember the exact words, but--uh, and already, uh, I'd had some discussions with Dr--personal discussions with Dr. Willard indicating his--his concern about the--uh, being able to finance, out of the same budget, uh, uh, cost of health care, uh, for people that didn't have a dime, uh, on the 49:00one--and have that competing with money needed for uh, research and for salaries and for just generally improving the excellence of the health care that is delivered and this was very troublesome to me because this is--this was not an experience. Although uh, San Francisco did a lot of uh--of this--the San--the hospital--it was always directly related to the city or the county--that kind of money--whereas this was expected to come in through the UK budget, and uh, so I indicated at that very first meeting that this was a thing that worried me and--and uh, I felt it was very important that--that we work out some kind of an understanding. Uh, I even had in the back of my mind something I 50:00tried later on and that never got quite to where I'd like to with it, but uh I had the thought that uh, uh, if it--if indigent care--when we got fully going and of course at that stage, we could only make projections at that stage--but uh, if indigent care when we were fully going would say cost fifteen million a year or something like that-- this was without the thought that Medicare or some of these other things were coming--uh, that uh, why shouldn't a line item in the welfare budget--if the state's going to be in the indigent business through a specific hospital--why shouldn't that be in the uh, state welfare budget in a way in which UK could call down on that uh, justif--with justification, uh, and separate that off from the request for a--the- 51:00-the--the straight work of the Medical Center and then we wouldn't have this business of having X dollars for the Medical Center and having to decide whether it goes into indigent care or whether it goes into--into higher salaries, so we're into--and--and the people listened. I--I mean the fact that--you know, I had already given some--some thought to this and this wasn't trying to grandstand or anything, it was just strict--strictly to--uh, uh I--that I meant it when I welcomed the-- this putting on a white coat was just sort of uh, to settle them down (both laugh) a bit, you know, uh, but uh, this--this was one of the most immediate problems and perplexing problems that uh--that we had 52:00in the early days of the hospital. As I think I mentioned earlier, uh, when I arrived there, uh, uh, the hospital--and I might be incorrect on the magnitude of things--but uh, I think it had been operating uh, for almost a year, but only in uh, certain services.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: It was not fully activated by the time I came there. In fact, as I remember some of the capital improvement hadn't--or building-- hadn't been totally completed and outfitted. Some of--certainly some of the necessary medical equipment, uh, uh, hadn't arrived, uh, and so we--and as I had understood the first class of medical students--when 53:00they got to their first clinical year--had to take that in other hospitals, uh, and only in the--they'd only been in the hospital one year for clinical work and I guess--don't think they had uh--were there for all of it. So uh, uh, this uh--this was about the stage we were in when I came on the scene. So the--the first--I'd say we had, uh--I--if I had divided them up I would have--would've had three what I thought were clearly uh, responsibilities I should uh, work with. Uh, one is--is building--uh, was a little more long--long range and that was building a plan and--and the development which would really bring the hospital--not just the hospital, but the Medical Center 54:00with the hospital--closer to the rest of the university in whatever way that could happen and I had one specific, uh, in my mind at that time. The second was, uh--what was, uh, the organization to try to uh, give the--assure the Medical Center of the necessary autonomy that it needed, but not having it run off on its own to the state, uh, uh, which apparently they had been doing some of. It was--this was just what you'd call growth of uh--of adding a great big part to a--a long time university that hadn't had that great big part and that's always going to take some shakedown and uh--and then the--the--the third role was this--this perplexing problem of how to deal with the indigent uh, 55:00uh, situation. Now, coming back to the first one, uh, I think one of my early commentaries, uh, sort of uh, shook up another a--element of the university--a smaller element. I uh, indicated very early that uh, I felt our pharmacy uh, depart--uh, school--that--I--I think I made a s--unfortunate statement once that got published that--that it might as well be in Paducah, uh, as far as Lexington (both laugh) with the relationships it had with the rest of the university and this [microphone interference] was not a criticism of the--so much the people as it was the influence that it--it had had a very different 56:00history. I can't remember exactly, but it--at one time I guess it had been somewhere else and had--as a separate medi--pharmacy school--

SMOOT: It had been in Louisville.

OSWALD: --and then it had come to--to Lexington. Well, to me the real opportunities in the future of pharmacy was getting pharmacies into the--into a hospital and here suddenly this great opportunity came which didn't excite the pharmacy school, uh, and it was primarily--uh, the concern was, well, would they become a part of the--would they become a part of the uh--of the Medical Center and uh--is it okay?

SMOOT: Okay.

OSWALD: Would they become a part of the Medical Center and uh, be downgraded and not be able to play their role and my--my uh, feeling was that uh, this represented a real opportunity and uh, I was so 57:00rewarded--I--I don't know when it was, maybe five, six years ago, you'd know the date probably--but uh, in one of the professional--national professional evaluations of various health care colleges around the country including pharmacy schools, the University of Kentucky pharmacy school was listed right near the top--

SMOOT: That's right.

OSWALD: --and--

[Pause in recording.]

OSWALD: Well--and uh, I--I just have a feeling that it--the combination of bringing in--uh, and of course about this time--I believe his name was Earl Slone, a very nice man who'd been dean of pharmacy for some years, uh, chose to retire at the time that the move was made and uh, a Dean Swintosky was brought in--I believe from Madison--uh, uh, he saw a 58:00real opportunity uh, of a uh, pharmacy department growing with the uh, college, growing with the Medical Center and particularly this concept of--of uh--of pharmacists uh, uh, potentially being on rounds. Uh, this--this really excited him because the uh, pharmacy school had been uh, uh, so traditional and uh, was not changing as were other areas of the--of medicine uh, or health. So this was--this was uh--this was one uh, uh, uh, factor. I think the area of indigent care began to take care of it--uh, itself because, uh, it was quite clear in 1964 in the votes in congress that uh, Medicare was going to make it. Uh, 59:00uh, the way Lyndon Johnson was--was going soon after he was elected in '64--getting into '65--and of course that bill was signed. Uh, I--I remember that - July one, 1965--because uh, the University of Kentucky made quite a contribution to the early days of Medicare through a man by the name of Howard Bost. Uh, he was one of the early professionals referred to as a medical economist and uh, uh, I uh, do not remember the exact facts or even--I may be off in my uh, timing--but Howard was given a year's leave of absence, uh, right after the Medicare bill was 60:00passed, uh, to join a team--or maybe he even headed the team, I don't know--but uh, I remember receiving some very appreciative letters from officials in Washington about his--his contribution, but the real uh, framework of Medicare for the nation was being put together in--in uh--in the--in 1960--end of '65 and into '66--and um, uh, since uh, we were so uh, uh, dependent upon um--uh, upon it because there was uh, uh--up--up in this area where there was a great deal of indi--indige- -indi--digency there was also a proportionate of--of elderly people. A lot of the younger people had left, so uh--because of lack of jobs and 61:00so forth--so Medicare meant an, almost a double whammy for--for the area that we were serving. Now, I'm not in any way uh, saying that that--the fact that we were serving that area uh, uh, hurt the Medical School as far as a deliverer of mel--of health care. Indeed, it was a tremendous--uh, in many ways--uh, a tremendous advantage because one of the things that uh, really is needed for a uh, good first rate medical school is a diversity of patients and a diversity of uh--of problems and uh, if you get into a very homogeneous kind of a situation, uh, uh, you're patients, uh, uh--and maybe the patients could all uh, pay up and 62:00everything else, if they've all uh, got (laughs) pretty much the same set of--of ills and so forth, uh, uh--but some of the stories I heard of what they--of diseases and--and conditions and uh, uh--that in some of the poor hollows of--of Eastern Kentucky that were brought up there and I can tell you living on Rose at Maxwell Place where the ambulances were--came up with the sirens going, I know they--and they always were coming from the east (both laugh), uh, uh, uh, this I'm sure was an early plus. Uh, it may still be for all I know, but--but it was viewed as an early plus in the--in the Medical Center and uh, so--uh, now, one other area of the early Medical School discussions that um, uh, 63:00we had--uh, I'm not uh, sure how uh, others would judge my performance in this because there was a great deal of difference of opinion and that was the appropriate way of handling the uh, distribution of the physicians' fees. Uh, this is in every hospital, medical school in the country. I mean uh, the uh--the--the--some of the doctors, particularly the--the higher earning doctors, if you will, that bring more money into the medical school, uh, uh, feel that this uh, uh, money is uh--is uh--quote "Theirs," not in the sense that it should 64:00be onto their salary, but it should be into their department for that department's uh, activities and other kinds of things and uh, you hear- -I've never heard anything about Kentucky nor fortunately Penn State, but I've heard of many medical centers where there's been some real abuse of--of that kind. Uh, the other side of this is that the money really uh, is--belongs to the--to the institution in that they have provided the entire setting--ranging from all the nurses and all the other kinds of care to the physical plant to the operating facilities to everything else--for this doctor--if he was in private practice would have to furnish all himself and that uh--that there ought to be some kind of a, uh--of a--of an appropriate mechanism. Now, I also 65:00was aware of the fact that their needed to be some incentives. I mean, if you get into a system where it just all comes back in and there's no recognition that--that departments like surgery and--and radiology and uh, uh, uh, orthopedics uh, which are some of the higher earners, if you will, that is they have more return, uh, uh, but uh, uh, you must have some kind of a--of uh--of an incentive to uh--for these uh, people to prac--to--to have patients and not do just research or uh, uh--or some of the non patient care activities and uh--and so we had many, many discussions about it. Dr. Willard was uh--was uh, uh, very 66:00s--felt very keenly, along with me, on um, not just turning it back to where it's earned because there's, you know, the fa--some of the most important, uh, parts of a medical center, uh, are uh, its uh, family practice, its--its pediatrics and these of course are traditionally very much low earners and there needs to be support of those in the same way and then when one gets into the basic sciences of course there is--uh, there are grants--uh, many--uh, many more grants that uh--that uh--for research that go into there, but there needs to be possibly some even access to the--to the uh--uh, to, uh--out of the clinical sciences, but uh--but that again is--there's good points of view on each side. Uh, this led me to uh--when I was at Penn State some ten 67:00years later, still working on the same problem, uh, groping with--with the faculty members--uh, I was asked to speak to what I'm told is a sort of an elitist group of surgeons--they're called the uh, Society of University Surgeons--and this is the number one surgeon in each medical school and no one--nobody else but the--the chief honcho, and--and uh, they'd never had a university president speak to them before and they were meeting at Hershey and um, I gave a talk. It was uh, sort of why not join the rest of the university? (Smoot laughs) Uh, and I took this issue sort of head-on and uh--but not in a--not in a--I hope in not 68:00a--not a controversial way, but just putting out the uh, uh--some facts and the importance that uh, uh, a university uh, really means to uh, uh, an overall medical school and some of the things that are happening where individual departments are actually going off and--and uh, uh, organizing--even legally--separate from the Medical Center. Uh, uh, I think in the long run they're going to be in--in--in uh--maybe not so much those departments, but the Medical Center as a unit to deliver an integrated health uh, program is going to be weakened. At least I felt very strongly of that. I was asked--I was very flattered--I was asked by uh, the chairman of that group if I would publish my paper in 69:00Surgery, the--the uh--the uh--re--really the technical maga--I told him no. I--I said (laughs) that uh--and I think they were--and I have a feeling had I really sent them in a manuscript, uh, a--some board would have decided that--that this is very interesting, but uh, it probably ought to go into a newspaper or somewhere else (both laugh) rather than into their--their technical journal and I--I think they would have been right, but uh--well, uh, there--those are some early impressions and early thoughts that I had about the--the uh, the Medical Center, uh, uh, and when I talk about the Medical Center I'm not thinking just of the College of Medicine, but I--I think the uh--the uh, College of Dentistry uh, uh, with--and I--two names I remember, of course, 70:00specially is uh--is--is Al Morris and Bohannon. Bohannon I remember we made dean after--uh, after Morris uh, left. I think Morris is--is uh--is either in Washington or--or no--now--uh, is he in Philadelphia?

SMOOT: He's the dean at Pennsylvania.

OSWALD: Is he dean now at Pennsylvania?

SMOOT: Yes, sir.

OSWALD: Well, I didn't know whether he'd gone back to being uh, a dean or not. For a while he was the head of a--a national organization of dentists and then of course I've talked to him on the phone several times, but haven't seen him is uh--is uh--is Ward Griffen and Ward, uh--Ward's another example of uh--of that group of surgeons that uh-- that came out of that initial department. Of all the--of all the really warm as uh--how did Gorbachev and Reagan describe their uh--their uh- 71:00-their frank, uh, sometimes uh, uh, heated uh, uh, discussions? (Smoot laughs) Well, these would describe Ben Eiseman and me in the early days about physicians' fees, and--but I must say the, uh--Ben brought together, uh, uh, a group that--well, they were bound to uh--to each go their--their way ultimately, but uh, uh--and I'm--I really don't know the Medical Center today and I--I wouldn't really even comment on it other than--other than I of course am--am--am aware that Pete Bosomworth was one of the early founders and uh--and one of the really- -along with the others I've mentioned--one of the really strong people that uh, came in. I believe he was the first head of anesthesiology if I remember correctly.

SMOOT: That is correct and the youngest one in the country at that time.

72:00

OSWALD: Was he the youngest in the country? I--I uh, am not surprised, but also a very uh, uh--a very disting--very distinguished person and of course then we also; Rose and I have a tendency to come to Medical Centers--both at UK and Penn State, uh--not only through the administrative end, but--but through the health end. Uh, Rose uh, had uh, uh, a very serious uh, uh, malignancy problem--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --uh, that uh--this had something to do with us--this was a part of our decision to get off the front line for a little bit--uh, a number of factors are related to that--but in 1967, uh, she had uh, a surgery--a very uh, radical surgery uh, and uh, we really had 73:00our fingers crossed, uh, but the care that she got, uh, and uh, the thing that always impressed--and I uh, uh, had an operation--a minor operation--uh, there, but I think uh, I was in the hospital three or four times and Rose four or five times, so we got to--they were--we were teased about--kidding about trying out the uh, the various services (Smoot laughs). At Penn State, I was the third, uh--the third person with a heart attack after the cardiology unit opened (both laugh) and uh--and boy, didn't they hump, you know--oh, I must tell you a story on my friend Ben Eiseman, uh, that uh, uh, always tickles me. Ben--I'm not sure even knows this story, but uh, uh, Rose 74:00and I, in the summer--I think it was '65 because that was the--that was the centennial year and we'd had a good year. It was--it--it was a very exciting year. That was sort of the peak year of the golden years in most universities and I think most people felt good about the university, uh, at that time, although changes were occurring in the university as far as changes in uh, in leadership roles and so forth and so that I'm sure there was an undercurrent of--of concern as to what he might do next, um, but uh, nevertheless we--after that year--uh, uh, we went off to Europe--Rose and I--to look at a couple of overseas programs that UK was--was just initiating at that stage 75:00and I had acute appendicitis and about ten days before we were to have gone and they rushed me over to the Medical Center and--and uh, I heard a conversation I wasn't supposed to hear I'm sure. I was a little groggy from having been prepped already for quick operation, but it was a couple of residents talking, who uh, by that time even an--uh, an appendix is just such a uh--uh, such a uh--uh, uh, almost a minor--like tonsillitis used to be, uh, but these two int--uh, residents were talking and they said uh, "Gosh, I hope Dr. Eiseman does--hasn't forgotten (Smoot laughs), uh, it's been twenty-two years since he's done an appendectomy," but of course he felt really compelled as the 76:00head of surgery with the president there on the table that he should be the one to do the operating (Smoot laughs), you know, whereas probably, uh, they do fifty a day--the residents do fifty a day--properly I'm sure uh, uh, checked on, but nevertheless uh, (both laugh), I've--I had such feeling of comfort until I heard that (both laugh), but anyway-- but anyway uh, I--I--I'm sure I did tell Ben about that--

SMOOT: Hmm.

OSWALD: --afterwards.

SMOOT: Let me ask you--'cause he's a very interesting person--and you hear--you hear mixed reviews on--on what he did--

OSWALD: Oh, yeah.

SMOOT: --because--controversial, outspoken--

OSWALD: Oh, yeah.

SMOOT: --uh, obviously a very talented surgeon. Um, the original team, however, of the--of the Medical Center--Dr. Willard, Bob Straus, uh--

OSWALD: Oh, yeah--Bob--I didn't mention Bob, yeah.

SMOOT: --Howard Bost--uh, uh--

[Pause in recording.]

SMOOT: They had a rather idealistic view of how the Medical Center--

77:00

OSWALD: Yeah.

SMOOT: --should be uh, s--structured and part of that was the fact that salaries should be limited and uh, anything--and we've talked--we've touched on it a little bit--uh, anything above and beyond you salary went into this pool--

OSWALD: Yeah, that's correct.

SMOOT: --of funds that was redistributed and so forth and apparently Dr. Eiseman never really accepted--

OSWALD: Oh, no.

SMOOT: --that point.

OSWALD: Surgeons never do, but he particularly. (both laugh)

SMOOT: Uh, I--I thought it peculiar that he was brought on board as a result of that because I--

OSWALD: Well--

SMOOT: --seemingly he'd never really made any uh--

OSWALD: Well, I--no, but I've never heard--I, uh, the head of surgery in five other--I've dealt with five medical schools and I've never dealt with uh--with a surgeon--a head of surgery--that has not had the same fundamental belief that uh--that--that Ben had. Now, Ben was the most difficult to really have a--uh, uh, a--a sort of a cool 78:00conversation with about it. Uh, although I must say for Ben, I uh, I--I think his--I think his personality got in the way. Uh, I would have predicted that as time went on, his personality, uh, would get in way--get in the way--of uh, of uh, his progress. Uh, I know he went back to Denver and--and, uh, and the person I've probably kept closer to and who I uh--uh, I never use the word love of a man--but I'd almost could say I do love him is Ed Pellegrino, uh, who is just such--one of the finest people that uh, I--I've known and I've come across him all the time--all through my career--I tried once to make him chancellor 79:00at San Francisco. Uh, I tried uh, once to bring him back to UK as dean of the graduate school and put him on a, uh--to create a new, named fellowship--I mean a professorship--which he would have. Uh, I tried to talk him out of going to Tennessee, uh, for--for the reasons that I knew about. Uh, when uh--even when we had a family--a potential family problem--there was a personal one, uh, and I needed uh, some guidance that was uh, almost spiritual as well as--as sound, uh, Rose and I got in the car and we drove down to Catholic University when he 80:00was president and we talked to him for three hours and so, I mean he-- he--he was one of the great people that was brought in early on and--at uh--at UK and, uh--and--and Ben prof--technically, professionally was as good as he, but--but--but Ben just--uh, there's a lot of people that wouldn't--I think there are other university presidents that would- -would not have taken as much from Ben as I did, uh, but on the other hand I stayed right with him and--and uh, Ben didn't leave, I don't think, because of me. Uh, I don't think that at all, but he may--you know, I don't--I--you never know, but uh--but we--we just agreed not to agree at uh--at uh times. Um, uh, Bill--Bill, I think, uh, I probably 81:00saw more of Ben than most presidents might have seen of the head of surgery in that uh, as uh--as Rose and I often worried about Bill Willard--we never thought he took care of himself well enough--and uh, in fact, one time I took a look at him and sent him off to uh--sent him off to Hawaii for uh, for four or five months and I can't remember what period it was, but he just--Bill just looked awful, but I think--

SMOOT: Let's stop for a moment.

[Pause in recording.]

OSWALD: What you--where do you want to go from here?

SMOOT: Well, let's talk a little--

OSWALD: I didn't--I just rambled a little bit, but I hope it--

SMOOT: Oh, not at all.

OSWALD: --makes--I hope it made some sense sort of as to the--

SMOOT: Very much.

OSWALD: --how I came onto the--I must say, just--just finishing up this period that I was there, uh, the--the uh, be--the Medicare and 82:00I--I can't recall whether it was called Medicaid at that time, but the state got into--in--in more than it had in--into uh, help and so the indigent problem, which looked to me as one of the most discouraging ones at first, uh, uh became--uh, became less of a--of a--of a problem uh, than uh--than it was at first. Uh, I think the pharmacy thing--as I look back at that judgment--and that was not easy because I uh--I uh--I remember meeting with the college and uh, they--there was a great deal of feeling that I was in there with uh--with an ax and uh, I was 83:00really doing what just seemed to me to make the most sense and I think, uh, you know, to, uh--to see the College of Pharmacy of UK listed right at--near the top in the nation was a real thrill and uh--and uh, to feel that maybe you played a little role. That--it would have happened, uh--it would have happened sooner or later anyway, but uh-- but I think the sooner the better because we got--we got a real good man who sensed an opportunity. He sensed an opportunity to do in pharmacy maybe what I sort of sensed, uh, when I came to UK as it related to the--the campuses. We've been talking primarily about the Medical Center here, but uh--but uh, uh, I--I, uh--I--I imagine there's still some feelings about uh, we and they as the Medical Center and the rest 84:00of the university, but uh, my goodness--uh, uh, and here they're right next door. Uh, the problem I had at Penn State is that Hershey is a hundred miles from the main campus and uh--and yet uh, I was there. I was so delighted to have Penn State, even though the first incident ended in ultimate tragedy. Uh, Penn State was uh, the second place in the country where the artificial heart, uh, uh, known as the Penn State Heart, was uh--was uh, really put together and this was as much our College of Engineering at State College as it was the uh, surgeons uh, and their related people at uh--at Hershey and uh--uh, but when I came 85:00to Penn State it was a we/they proposition if you ever saw one and so uh, uh, uh--I think it's a natural kind of a thing.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Do you think that idea of--of limiting sal--uh, physicians to salaries in the uh, medical schools--medical centers-- was--was--was a uh, too i--too idealistic uh, expectation?

OSWALD: Well, I don't--I don't sort of agree with the word limiting. Uh, I think it's a question of setting the salaries, uh, on a--a full-time--uh, a full-time basis, uh, without regard to the money that is brought in from their uh, clinical activities that comes into the hospital and uh, my--uh, to get away from UK, from which I've 86:00forgotten figures, uh, into Penn State which I'm a little more aware of, uh, the salaries are all set, uh, in the same time as the--same time as the salaries for the rest of the university. The percentage of increase that is for the general university applies for the state money that goes into the Medical Center's salaries, uh, but then uh, about the--of the total salary--about 54 percent comes from this pool of--of uh--of physicians' fees and 46 percent comes from the university. 87:00Now, the salaries are set in accordance with the competitive area. The surgeons' salaries are always--uh, uh, the surgeons' salaries are the highest. Uh, I'll never forget when I went to China, uh, we were very--and this is get--I don't want to diver--u, digress here, but uh, I was very fortunate in leading a delegation of Penn State people in--as early as 1974, uh, when we still didn't have any relations with China other than the initial Nixon visit--but we--I was being quizzed by a--uh, uh, our guide about what my salary was, uh, and how I might translate it in yuan--the Chinese dollar--and uh, they said, uh, are 88:00you the highest--uh, they--oh, they assumed that I was the highest paid person in the university (Smoot laughs) and I said no, I said, "I would guess there's probably twenty-five to thirty people that have a higher stated salary, uh, than I do." And they couldn't believe it and uh, they said, "Well, who would they be?" And I would say that probably about ten surgeons and about five or six radiologists and four or five orthopedists that would be at the top of the--top of the uh, uh, salary list and uh, now, I said, "I'm--I--from the standpoint of s--of the public funds coming into the university, I guess I would be the highest paid person, but from the total take home." Because, uh--so the concept wasn't so much to keep the salaries low as it was 89:00to keep them on a full-time basis, unrelated to the amount that that particular individual happened to bring in in relationship to--to--to fees, but now--uh, but still uh, our--our salaries--and this was true at UK I'm sure--uh, whereas the--the overall for the Medical Center is 52 percent, I would imagine if you took the Department of Surgery, uh, they don't get any more state money per person--percentage wise--than do the uh, uh, uh, pediatrics. Uh, on the other hand, they get more proportionately from the intake. This is where you try to build 90:00in some incentive factors and I would guess that uh, of their total salaries, instead of it 52/46 it may be more like 65/35 whereas maybe when you get into the uh, uh, p--pediatrics it might be 50/50 or even 46/54, uh, and so uh, this is where you--you build in a--but the key thing is that uh, there is not this concept that all this--uh, as charged in--some--in universities--I mean believe it or not, there is one university supposedly, and it's a good one, that have allowed one or two of their high earning departments to go off on their own and they have uh, uh, organized themselves--incorporated--and uh--and uh-- 91:00and the chairman gets a, uh, Mercedes. That's a part of the--apparently that goes with the job, you know, and uh, uh, you know, I wouldn't think very highly of that one. Uh, when I--I'd probably get in trouble by sticking my nose right in the middle of that one, but uh--but uh, uh, it's--it's a very--it's a--it's a very important, uh--one thing, when you're working with the legislature too, for them to know that uh- -that uh, we have to be competitive to get good doctors and we have to pay high salaries, uh, but uh, they're not getting any more salary from you people, proportionately, than an outstanding professor of English, uh, and everything is percentage wise and uh, you have to spend a lot 92:00of time uh, explaining these things, but uh--and I guess every medical center in the country has a different formula and they tend to change with different deans and--and different uh--different people and I don't know what it is at--at UK now at all and--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --I don't know if at UK any of the departments have gone off from the university, have they?

SMOOT: Not that I know of.

OSWALD: I mean it's really--

SMOOT: No.

OSWALD: --it's really--to me it's--it's--it's really quite shocking, but at some very good medical schools, some of them have--have--have separated themselves from the university. In fact, at Ohio State--at Ohio State, when the president took a firm position of uh--of uh, you know, that the money belongs to the university, not to the people back and so forth, the uh--the uh--four of the departments sued the president and the--and the regents and they got into all kinds of trouble and it ended up with the president--uh, who was a very good 93:00man, Harold Anderson - just saying, you know, he wasn't fired, but he just said, to hell with it.

SMOOT: Hmm.

OSWALD: You know, I'm--I'm not going to spend my whole educational time, you know, arguing over, you know, who--who does it belong to because the answer is that it belongs to both--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --and uh--and if something belongs to both then reasonable people can um decide what is an equitable or a fair thing and you've got to keep in mind the, uh--the individual, but you've also got to keep in mind the institution--

SMOOT: Hmm.

OSWALD: --and I think the--and I took a position that the overall institution had a stake in this just as much as the Medical Center, because you've got to explain to the rest of your faculty when they, you know, see salaries of a hundred and twenty-five thousand or so going to uh, uh, particular medic uh, and their salary is sixty 94:00something, you know, or sixty-five, you know, well, you've got to show uh, what the other--be able to show that that's just as competitive-- that hundred and twenty-five--as--as sixty-five is (laughs), you know.

SMOOT: Um-hm. Let me ask you about a couple of departments within the university. One--there were--there were problems surrounding microbiology in relationship to the Medical Center. I don't know if you recall anything about that, but they did not want to become a part of the Medical Center--be under the jurisdiction of the dean of the medical school and so forth--and secondly was the establishment of the um, School of Allied Health.

OSWALD: Yeah.

SMOOT: That took place while you were president--

OSWALD: Yeah--yeah.

SMOOT: --of UK

OSWALD: Well, I--I really, uh, am reluctant to comment on the microbiology. I now recall the uh--the uh, uh, concern. A lot of 95:00the uh--a lot of the concern, um, uh, was somewhat the same kind of concern that the uh--that the uh, uh, College of Pharmacy didn't want to move as a unit and--and I uh, was much more directly involved with that. Uh, I--I ca--I--I'm--I'm sure my position--uh, certainly would be now and I'm sure it must have been then--that uh, we had--we had to move the microbiology and uh--and I'm sure I ran into some uh--in fact, there was a man named Ralph Weaver--that name comes back--and then--who was the long time--he lived till he was about ninety-five or maybe he's still living--uh, with the microbiology and uh, he always disagreed I 96:00think with me on that problem, but always encouraged me in everything else--uh, I--I can't--I can't uh, remember that, but I presume it's in the--it's in the Medical Center now and it was destined to be there. It's a part almost of every basic sciences group in every institution and I'm sure there was--there were uh--it was one of the changes that uh, created uh, anxieties in that group and I--I think there was this feeling--uh, I think it--it--it's--it related--whenever a change like that was made it related to; were they moving from a we to a they situation? And they'd always been a we and they didn't want to be a they, uh, and uh, uh, I--I suspect--uh, I suspect that was a part of it. Now, the allied health, I do recall uh, that I was one of those 97:00pushing that. Uh, was it Hamberg?

SMOOT: Joe Hamburg.

OSWALD: Hamburg was the first dean, I believe.

SMOOT: That's right.

OSWALD: Is he still there?

SMOOT: He's still there, but he's not dean anymore.

OSWALD: Yeah, but he was the first dean.

SMOOT: Yes.

OSWALD: Because this seemed to be--uh, make so much sense to--to take these uh, various uh--these--these various uh, units and uh, put them under there. I re-remember the discussion was what units would be there and uh, now--now remind me--jig my memory on nursing at Kentucky- -uh, did we--did we have a separate College of Nursing?

SMOOT: You had a College of Nursing--Marcia Dake was the dean.

OSWALD: Uh, yeah, Marcia Dake--sure. Now, there was a--I remember there was one--one question when we were first starting allied health. In some institutions, they moved nursing under allied health and I 98:00remember that--I do remember sitting down with Mar--Marcia and assuring her that uh--that uh, although it was a--although it would be defined as allied health in some--uh, by some people, uh, uh, nevertheless it was a established profession of its own and uh--and uh, they belonged as a part of the Medical Center, but um, uh, they did not necessarily- -uh, if you were starting a College of Nursing, uh, at the same time you were starting a College of Allied Health, you might give it a lot more serious consideration, but uh, that was one I--as I remember I did not 99:00move, but I--I did--I did push and I think it helped uh, develop with uh--with uh, Bill the necessary funding of that. Now, I'm trying to remember--did uh, did Bill move from dean to vice-president at--at any stage before he went out?

SMOOT: Well, he was dean and vice-president.

OSWALD: He was dean and vice-president from the very beginning?

SMOOT: Yes.

OSWALD: I--I was trying to remember whether he was--he was vice- president of the whole Medical Center.

SMOOT: Exactly.

OSWALD: The dean--yeah, well, the discussion was at one time, should- -should there be--that--that's--that was another discussion that took place, that I decided I had enough on my plate, uh, but, uh, you know, is--has the time come now to have a--a separate dean of uh--of the 100:00medical school and I have a feeling--uh, my--my memory--you--you look back in the history, but you see if there was not a dean of the Medical Center appointed, uh, along about 1967 or '68 at which time Bill moved just to the vice-presidency--

SMOOT: Okay, that's right.

OSWALD: --of the entire medical school. Now, this was an idea--this was a thought that uh, uh--that made sense too--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --I mean, you know--

SMOOT: That's right.

OSWALD: --Bill--here we were creating another college - a College of Allied Health--and we had nursing. We were moving pharmacy under him--two new colleges--totally and uh, uh--and to operate a much more 101:00enlarged College of Medicine together with two new colleges that had never been there--one he had to start from scratch and one he had to (laughs) get a new dean and a--and a sort of a new slant on life and-- and--and bring them into the uh--into the uh, mo--the fold. Uh, uh, we did--and I can't remember the gentleman's name--uh, this uh--this--this I guess shows me that I uh, think of myself always working with Bill and--and uh, not so much with the direct deans. I--I remember Marcia Dake's name immediately as soon as you mentioned it. Hamburg's came back to me, uh, but uh, uh, that was another issue uh, that uh--that 102:00uh--that I think--I think the last year I was at uh, Kentucky there was a dean of the College of Medicine, who was not Bill Willard, but Bill was there as the overall vice-president.

SMOOT: Okay. Let me ask you about--we--we don't have much time left and I want to touch on a few other things before we finish. How would you evaluate the medical school and the Medical Center at the University of Kentucky in comparison with national medical centers?

OSWALD: Well, I think--I--I--I think the--it had a uh, uh--a very fast start, uh, uh, and uh, I think certainly uh, among the newer schools 103:00of the--say that were ten years or less older it was--it would be--it would have to be ranked, uh, you know, on the upper end of those. Uh, uh, the--the rest is mere hearsay. Uh, I--I've been--uh, I think I have understood that the--it--it couldn't help when you lose a Pellegrino and five or six of your top uh, surgeons, even though uh, left was Ward Griffen who was a tremendous person, uh, but uh, think of the five people that were--uh, we--went off to head things and of course now uh, Ward is himself, uh, but that can't help but uh, take a, uh, uh--what was an initial charge and begin to plateau it. Now, that--that also happened with Hershey. I watched the same thing. I 104:00mean there's this initial--uh, in--initial drive and I think it was even stronger at UK because it was closer to--to World War--uh, the end of the World War and--and the beginnings of some of the new medical schools. Uh, I would say now that uh--that uh--that uh, uh, the Medical Center at uh, the University of Kentucky is uh--is uh--rates, uh, uh, certainly of-- of well, let's say the ninety or so medical schools, it certainly rates in the--uh, in the upper half--upper th- -upper third--uh, somewhere in there. I--I--I think there are ten or fifteen medical schools that uh, uh, you couldn't knock out of the top 105:00ten or fifteen spots uh, that have been going--take the University of Pennsylvania which was founded by Benjamin Franklin (both laugh) and-- and uh, always has--you hear in the state of Pennsylvania uh, they--they speak of Penn and then they scratch around and then they think of a few other medical centers (both laugh) there are around, you know--but-- but, you know, I would say that--I--I would say that uh--that uh, what was a--what was a, uh--a needed facility was well supported at first. I suspect probably also there's a tendency to s--uh, be more generous in the support of something that's--that's initiated and in its early growing phases than there is, uh, uh, as time goes on and th--that probably accounts for the plateauing of many of the--of the--of the new 106:00schools that uh, they rate quite high and--and then down, but yet you have within the medical school the--uh, uh, I ima--uh, uh, where you really rate uh, uh, that means more is--is how does the Department of Surgery rate or how does the College of Pharmacy rate or how--how does the College of Nursing rate and I--I really couldn't answer on those- -on--on those things. I really don't know. Uh, I've only been back twice in uh--in uh, the whole time and--and uh, and the on--and the person I've really talked to more than anybody else has been, uh, Ed and it's been more, you know, personal or where we go from here than it has been in a reminiscing way, other than he was our family doctor too.

107:00

SMOOT: What about the University of Kentucky overall? How would you evaluate it uh, on a national basis?

OSWALD: I would say--it certainly, uh--it--it's--uh, well, that's-- that's difficult--I've mentioned this AAU institutions before. Now, just to give you an idea who's in the AAU in the public institutions- -University of North Carolina is, Vanderbilt is, well, that's private, Tulane is--

SMOOT: Virginia?

OSWALD: --Virginia is--V--University of Virginia is, University of 108:00Maryland is--then you move up into the Big Ten--all of the Big Ten schools are, but then you get into the east and when I came only Penn and Penn State were in and more recently the University of Pittsburgh is one of the--uh, one of those that has gone in since then. The last two public universities to move in are the University of Florida and the University of Arizona. Now, uh--so of the public top twenty-five one usually defines them in there. I would say that the University of Kentucky was in the next ten somewhere.

SMOOT: Knocking at the door of membership perhaps?

109:00

OSWALD: No, I don't--I--I don't--I don't know about that. Uh, I suspect they're not going to go much bigger than fifty--that group--but I don't think it's--uh--uh--uh--I--I--I--I--I don't like the rating game particularly, but--but I--I would say that--I would say the University of Kentucky is uh--is a very respected institution along with the University of uh--of Tennessee, along with the University of uh--of uh--of uh--of--well, I have my ups and downs about LSU. Uh, uh, there are a couple of institut--well, I don't think I'll mention that, uh, but I--I would say--I would say that uh--I mean, it--it's--uh, you can 110:00put on paper what are at least the top twenty-five publics in--in a--at least as judged by themselves (both laugh)--that's what always tickles me by this--but--but it's historical too, but uh--and the University of Arizona and the University of Florida for--ever since I joined the AAU when I joined Penn State, uh, have been the next uh, uh, public universities and they've just gone in. The ones just before it were Maryland and the University of Oregon. Oregon State is not in it. They--Oregon State--Washington is in it, but Washington State is not. 111:00Uh, I would put Oregon State, Washington State, put Kentucky, I'd put Tennessee, I'd put North--North Carolina State, uh, clearly in that group, uh, perhaps Georgia--Georgia's strong and--it's surprisingly strong in some areas and surprisingly weak in others--so you'd have to say it's in the next ten somewhere, but I wouldn't--I wouldn't say uh, who's--who's--who's knocking on the door.

SMOOT: Okay.

OSWALD: Uh, I'll tell you who's knocking the hardest on the door is Notre Dame on the--but that's on the private side and--and of course the reason Notre Dame is not in it is because the AAU is looking for uh, the top graduate schools. Now, the--the thing that going to-- 112:00when--when Kentucky's graduate school is rated as having made, you know, really strong gains and uh, I--I'm not saying whether it has or it hasn't 'cause I--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --really don't know--

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: --and I don't want to be com--I don't want to comment on it because it's--it's unfair, but uh, it's the progress in the graduate schools and in the professional schools and this is what sometimes bothers you a little bit because we talk about the importance of--of our--90 percent of our students or 80 percent are--are undergraduate and that's where we should be concentrating and here really--I--I--I think there's a hundred schools that are probably better undergraduate (laughs) schools than some of those in the AAU, uh, but, you know, they've made their name through, you know, top research and--and 113:00putting out top faculty.

SMOOT: Um-hm.

OSWALD: Let me ask you--are there also, of course and also one of the very important uh, ways of judging uh, or trying to judge institutions is the--is the quality of the faculty that--that are--one can attract and uh, uh, what's--what--what is the feeling you're running into now? Is it--is--is--is Kentucky done a--is it uh--is it doing a, uh--is it losing its top people faster than it's getting some bright, young ones or--or the reverse?

SMOOT: Well, it wh--in the uh, comparison that you just asked me to make, uh, I would say that they have recently lost some very top people and have replaced--at least in my own department as an example--that I work with in the history department they have brought in some very 114:00bright, new, young people, uh--

OSWALD: That's a good department.

SMOOT: Thank you. I think so--and--

OSWALD: I--and I might say, one of my--my story with Tom Clark is quite a dif--is--is another story that uh, I think doesn't go into this interview, but--

SMOOT: Okay.

OSWALD: --but I--uh, I was uh, there when Tom no longer became de--was no longer chairman and Carl Cone--

SMOOT: Yes.

OSWALD: --became chairman--

SMOOT: A fine man.

OSWALD: --and uh--but this was a change that uh--that was difficult.

SMOOT: Hmm. Let me ask you one more question and then we will have to stop. I see that--may I ask you one more

OSWALD: Oh, sure. Listen, if you want to run along another ten or fifteen minutes that's all right.

SMOOT: Okay. I noted several accomplishments (coughs) that you could point to while you were at the University of Kentucky--the community college system, Ph.D. programs grew, uh, added two hundred new faculty approximately, uh, funded the retirement system for the faculty, a very 115:00important change.

OSWALD: I think--yeah, I'd forgotten that.

SMOOT: What would you point to as the most important accomplishment you made while at the University of Kentucky.

OSWALD: Well, I--I think the--the university became more of a national- -or certainly a s--regional university and less of a provincial Kentucky university and that means a lot of things, but it meant uh, bringing in a broader based and educated--or trained--faculty, uh, it meant a number of changes in the department chairmen and--and uh, uh, in some 116:00instances deans and--a to bring uh, new thoughts into the institution and of course uh, uh, perhaps what I would view as some of the best accomplishments other people would consider my biggest failure. Another is that I didn't relate enough to Lexington and to--uh, to the old guard and to Fred Wachs and to uh, uh--to some of the uh, political people that uh--that were very proud of the university and uh, felt that it uh, belonged to them. Uh, I uh, was very aware that my support for the commonwealth--uh, community colleges really got under the burr of some people in Lexington that--that uh, tried to remind me--politely 117:00at first and not so politely later on--that--that uh, this--that UK was at Lexington, not out in Paducah and--and Hazard and so forth and uh, uh--and I think a part of that--uh, a part of this being less provincial was my willingness to go over and talk the legislature out of a speaker ban, uh, bill which was really putting my head in the lion's mouth, but on the other hand, that uh, again would uh, be viewed as uh, by some of my critics as being uh, uh, too liberal. You know, everything is relative.

SMOOT: Yes.

118:00

OSWALD: Uh, when I left Lexington there were those who uh, loved to uh, uh, put words in all kinds of peoples' mouths--including mine--but anyway there was this general feeling on the part of so many that uh, I was uh, uh, far too liberal and progressive a person to have been really good for the university and uh--and uh, some stories like Oswald's little red school house and--and these kind of things.

SMOOT: You have a ----------?? I noticed in ----------??

OSWALD: And I had got to California--

SMOOT: Yes.

OSWALD: --got back to California (Smoot laughs) and the first editorial was, are we ever glad to get Jack Oswald, with his conservative feet on the ground back into the center of this university, (Smoot laughs) and damn it, all I'd done was gone across the country and I hadn't 119:00said anything to anybody. (laughs) So I mean, this just shows you, you know, that--that the environment in which you're in and--now, I mean, you know, I'm--I'm very willing to self criticize too. I mean, I--as I look back at it, I think the pace at which some changes were made could have been more--could--uh, could have been more calculated, uh, more uh, uh, time between, better explained. Uh, I got into this--uh, I was really feeling that that's what I must do about the time that we had this terrible, terrible mess over uh, buying the uh, Main Chance Farm which now I am told by Lexington--even Lexington people--how bright I 120:00was to have done that and at the time, of course I even had to go back from California uh, be--this thirty million dollar lawsuit against Louie Haggin and me, uh, for conspiring, you know, to--to buy that farm not because UK needed it, but we were just going to keep these other people from buying something to compete with Keeneland and uh, I spent so many hours on that, uh, uh, that I really--I--I really became a sort of a controversy--I mean I became a controversial person myself. Uh, uh, one time I mentioned to Rose that this was the thirtieth straight day that I had been on the--in a--in a--in the front--on the front page of the--of the, uh, a story of the--of the Courier-Journal. Uh, these were not uh, the pub--editorially the Courier-Journal was just 121:00tremendously supportive. I mean if--if something would happen that bothered the Lexington Leader they--I realize it's under very different management now, but--but the Leader and, uh--if I do something and--and they would really go after me for my--my freedom ways, uh, I didn't have to say a word because I knew two days later the Courier would (Smoot laughs) editorialize the opposite.

SMOOT: Uh-hm.

OSWALD: --and that was always a source--source of comfort.

SMOOT: That was when the Leader was still a Republican paper.

OSWALD: But--but--but--but really--really--really I--if I look back at it, I--I--I moved uh, probably too fast. I--I sensed there was probably more receptivity than there was and I guess I was probably talking more to the people that sensed that rec--showed me that receptivity than the people that started adding up how many people had been changed and 122:00uh--and I'll just finish up on one story. I come back to the--

[Pause in recording.]

OSWALD: --Ben Eiseman operating on me for appendicitis--well, I had-- that was right during the period when we had instituted a new program of rotating department chairmen. Instead of them having that position for life, at the end of five years there'd be a review and uh--and uh, uh, if they--everybody thought this was going fine they would go for another five and then they'd--and then there'd be somebody else, uh, but there was this opportunity rather than making these career jobs and I sensed that this had--was a part of the stodginess of the institution and so there was a lot of jokes about me and my rotation and (Smoot laughs) uh, uh, I recovered so quickly from this appendectomy--so Ben must have done a good job and I knew he would--but anyway uh, within 123:00ten days I was in Paris--Rose and I left--and the story was when I got back, is that Eiseman really didn't take out my appendix, he just rotated it (both laugh) and so--so I got the message very quickly, you know, as to uh--as to (laughs) how people felt about that, but--

SMOOT: Better--better stop there, I guess.

OSWALD: No, you can go ahead.

SMOOT: All right. I want to ask you one more question in particular. Uh, I know--uh, in the newspapers, when you were getting ready to leave Kentucky--

OSWALD: Yeah.

SMOOT: --the students were protesting, they did not want you to leave the--you had resigned--

OSWALD: That's right.

SMOOT: --had it just become impossible to work with Governor Nunn and with the legislature or those particular people? Was it--was it the-- was it something beyond that--uh, a combin--

OSWALD: Well, it was a combination of things. First of all, uh, a lot 124:00of people were making it strictly a political thing and it was not. I mean I--I uh, have no question that I uh, would have uh, uh--or at least I--I don't have any reason to believe that I would have uh, not uh, uh, survived, so to speak, the uh--the period when Mr. Nunn was governor and uh, moved onto the next p--p--person; however, I--I did a lot of thinking about how many changes had been made and how rapidly it had been and uh, how uh, I myself had become a, uh, sort of a part of the controversy and uh, when you become yourself a part of the controversy you're not as effective as you are when uh, there's a--a 125:00little better understanding of--of--of what's been done and why and uh, uh, that was combined with this offer that was totally unexpected from the new president of the University of California and I must admit I loved the University uh, of California, it's a great place and to have the opportunity to be this--the very next in line at that place uh, uh, was extremely interesting to me and then, that was the time that Rose was recovering from this very serious surgery about which we had our fingers crossed and I just had to get her off the front line. My new job was--I was just as much or even more--on the front line in all that student unrest at Berkley, but Rose was not the first lady of the 126:00university, uh, and she did not have the demands on her that she had in uh--at Maxwell Place and--and all the public appearances and things like that, uh, which I think would have killed her or could have and so it was sort of a combination of all of those, I think would be the best way as I look back at it that uh--of course, I had disagreements with Mr. Nunn and I had very serious disagreements with Mr. Chandler and when he came on the board--uh, uh, I'll never forget the first meeting he came on the board and we sat at the table just directly opposite-- our noses were about that far apart (Smoot laughs)--and there must have been a hundred photographers in there that each shot a hundred shots of the two of us--looking for the one where we appeared to be glowering 127:00the worst--and during the course of a couple of hours--well, you're going to get a good shot and uh, I'll never forget the picture, I've got it framed somewhere, (Smoot laughs) I don't have it up here, but uh, uh--but it just looks like, you know, if they'd have taken--they had cut us loose from our chairs we'd have just gone after each other, you know, and it really wasn't the--you know, Happy the next time I saw him was when I went down to have building named after me and (laughs) we were all out at the Idle Hour at a reception of some kind and Happy walked into it and he started from one end of the room walking towards me and he yelled, he says, "Mr. President!" (Smoot laughs) And everybody started backing towards the wall and the two of us started walking to other just like high noon and I knew that when we met--I knew exactly what he'd do--he gave me the damndest bear hug and he says, "So great to see you, son." You know (both laugh), so--uh, so I- 128:00-I'd been through this experience of going to his home and having dinner and then going down and looking at these--these galleries of pictures of him hugging every pope and every baseball player and every political figure (Smoot laughs) of the--of our time, you know.

SMOOT: Yes.

OSWALD: So there's--he's--he's uh, about as interesting a character--I-- I am not moved to tears when I watch him cry, (both laugh) but--and Nunn was a--Nunn--Nunn was uh--Nunn just didn't understand the university. I'll--I'll never forget when he--during the campaign when he was running and--that's--this again showed how controversial I'd become, because a lot of questions were asked him. You know, what was he going to do with me, uh, and he s--and it was just as though I was the highway commissioner. Uh, he said, "Well, I haven't decided yet what I'll do, whether I'll keep him or not." This was his answer, you 129:00know. Well, you know, I could understand that somebody that doesn't understand the university and the nature of it and so forth that, you know, it's--he would give that answer, you know, that he--you know, he's not committing himself to whether he's going to fire me or not, you know, a--a--as though he could, you know, and I think people like Ralph, who--who was probably as influential in me coming as anybody, would have uh--would have uh, been very uh, uh--he would have been very supportive, but I still had this darn--this--this Main Chance thing and all that, so--well--okay?

SMOOT: Yes, sir. Are there any other topics you think should be touched upon about the University of Kentucky experience and yourself?

OSWALD: No, I--I just think it's--I--I just--I just look back at it uh, wi--very warmly. I still think there's a couple of law suits running 130:00yet, still got my name on it (Smoot laughs). Every once in a while I'll get something from their lawyer, uh, and uh, uh, I know it's from Kentucky when it gets up in the millions, you know. They love to sue for millions, you know, (Smoot laughs) but uh, no, I--I--I uh. think I've talked myself out on Kentucky.

SMOOT: I think not, but let me thank you on behalf of the University of Kentucky and the Medical Center.

OSWALD: Is this--is this--is this what you'd hoped sort of to get?

SMOOT: Absolutely.

OSWALD: Well--

SMOOT: And I appreciate it.

OSWALD: Well, you're--you're more than welcome.

[End of interview.]

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