SMOOT: Dr. Willard, tell me a little bit about yourself, a briefautobiographical sketch, if you would.
WILLARD: Well, I grew up in Seattle, born in 1908, there. My fatherwas assistant superintendent of public schools in Seattle and I went through high school there and, uh, then later to Yale for my, for undergraduate, uh, college, stayed on for medical school and two years of hospital work after that and assistant resi-, I mean an intern in pediatrics at Johns Hopkins and an assistant resident in pediatrics at Rochester, New York and then I returned to Yale on a Rockefeller 1:00Fellowship in public health and spent another year and after that I had six years as a, uh, county health officer in the state of Maryland-- three years in the eastern shore, three years in Hagerstown. Then came World War II and actually it was well along before I, joined. Uh, we were classified as essential, being health officers, but I didn't think anything I was doing was very essential, so I joined up. Actually went into public health service and because one of my Yale professors was pretty well up in the brass in the war department, um, the Army 2:00offered me a first lieutenant and he said, "Don't take that, come to public health service." You can be a major there, or the equivalent, think they called them surgeons which is a misnomer and I'll have you detailed to the public health service. Of course the time that happened--no, I, I'll have you detailed to the Army from the public health service. That happened and I was being prepared for military government, the war ended, so I didn't get outside the United States until after the war, but I spent six months in Korea as the acting head 3:00of the civilian department of public health and welfare. It was really supposed to be a temporary job until they got a full-fledged army colonel with all the eagles and stuff to be in charge, but it took 'em six months to do it and at the end of that time I didn't like him very well--(Smoot laughs)--so I was able to finagle the points around enough to come home and a little before I came home I had been offered a job at Yale on the faculty in public health and I took that. Now, I don't know how far you want to go, but, uh, that's--
SMOOT: --that's a good place to--
WILLARD: --a few of the highlights.
SMOOT: Yes, sir. Um, what was it like at Yale at that time, when you4:00decided to go back? You had been there as an undergraduate and had done graduate work there. I'm sure things had changed, uh, somewhat.
WILLARD: Well, of course there was a lot of military activity during thewar, but, uh, the size of the classes were increased and accelerated. And I don't think there was anything very unique, uh, of change that wasn't happening elsewhere. The Yale experience is, I think, the best educational experience I had. The medical school I thought was particularly good. It was small, about fifty students a class. The faculty in those days was small. I don't expect there were much more than fifty full-time faculty.
WILLARD: And while they're pretty active in research, there's, well,5:00a lot of intimate relationships, very little pressure. You didn't have to take an exam except for two, a comprehensive at the end of the second year and at the end of the fourth year to graduate. They did offer exams, but allegedly they didn't count on your final grade. I think I and most people took 'em. I don't know what they ever did with the grades, but anyway we passed the comprehensives and too. Now, I, I create a medical school with that kind of an atmosphere, I sure like to have done it, I don't think Kentucky turned out quite that way, but anyway, I thought it was ideal.
SMOOT: Um-hm. Um, a smaller medical school is, in your opinion,superior to the larger, more, more, uh, commonly seen medical centers 6:00that you see these days?
WILLARD: Yeah. All medicine has changed so much. Uh, with all thehigh technology there is today, uh--(coughs)--I don't know that, um, you give an adequate medical background today with the facilities and faculty of that time, but for the period of time--that was about 1930 to '34--uh, I thought it was superior. I've visited Yale since then and it's a tremendous research factory like is being developed here and enrollment's a lot larger. I think a lot of the intimacy of student- 7:00faculty relationships does not exist that did exist at that time. So I think I've probably had the best of all possible worlds at the time I went through medical school, considering the time and the state of medical knowledge and research.
SMOOT: Hmm. When you had returned to Yale following, uh, your beingstationed in Korea, uh, did you join the faculty as an assistant professor, is that right?
WILLARD: (laughs) Yeah. I got offered, uh, by the department chairman,an associate professorship and then he had to write, I think he had to tell my wife I was still abroad, that he couldn't get me through the committee as, as an associate professor. You see, it had been ten 8:00years that I, I had no real academic background except going through school, and would I take an assistant professorship? Pay would be the same. To me it didn't make any difference what the title was and I said sure, so, um, I went as an assistant professor.
SMOOT: How long did you stay there?
WILLARD: It was about five years. During that time I got two promotionsso they made me professor shortly before I left and I also got my first taste of medical school administration as an assistant dean for postgraduate medical education and while there, uh, gradually people began to, began to talk about possible deanships, which I thought was 9:00preposterous in my case. But along came a couple of offers in the course of time and finally I took one.
SMOOT: One offer had come from, uh, Albany State, is that cor-, is thatright?
WILLARD: Yeah. That ca-, one came from Albany and that was privateschool. I didn't go there. Um, the other was the state university at Syracuse. The state had just taken over the private school from Syracuse University the year before I came and a previous dean--I think he had been dean twenty-seven years or some time like that--and so I took over from him. They had a lot of growing pains in adjusting to the 10:00state bureaucracy and the state system, and I liked Syracuse. Uh, the people there were nice and, uh, it was a growing, developing situation, but I despised the bureaucracy of New York. You couldn't hire a secretary without going down to Albany and getting all the papers clear with the civil service and you couldn't buy anything without going through Albany and it was very frustrating in that respect.
WILLARD: But the people were, that we worked with on a day to day basis,within the school, by and large I thought were very good and we enjoyed Syracuse.
SMOOT: Did you feel you were making adequate progress while you wereat Syracuse?
WILLARD: Yeah, we did a, well, they put a lot more money into the school11:00so it had been essentially a voluntary faculty. That is the practicing physicians in town did the teaching until the state took over and we had the opportunity to, uh, hire quite a lot of full-time faculty, mostly clinical faculty because the basic sciences were basically full-time, and we made good progress there. Uh, they had plans for a large building expansion, but after the basic sciences went along all right they had plans for a new university hospital and they surely needed it, what they had was very antiquated, but the, uh, red tape was substantial and while they said we'd have one in five years, by 12:00the time they left they still didn't even have the beginnings of one. This--they told me that when I left for Kentucky that, uh, I'd have my hospital and medical center before they had their university hospital. It turned out to be true.
WILLARD: But what they got, I, though I haven't seen it, I think isthe hospital per se, I think, was much bigger and fancier for its day. Now, with all the new additions here since I've left, uh, I have no idea what the comparison would be and don't think it's very important.
SMOOT: There was a lot of building going on, wasn't there, on a nationalbasis following World War II?
WILLARD: Yeah, um-hm, there was a great push for new medical schools and13:00enlarging existing schools, a great deal of that. In fact, the, oh, I've forgotten the figures now, but I know the enrollment at Syracuse was significantly increased after the state took over.
SMOOT: Hmm. Do you think that that was something that was neededthroughout the country?
WILLARD: (coughs) Yes, it was needed at that time very much. Thequestion that, uh, everybody's debating now is have we sort of overshot the mark so that there'll be too many doctors. There are predictions that we'll have a doctor glut, with surplus. I, uh, I think maybe in raw numbers we, we may, but whether you have the kinds of doctors that 14:00we need and in the, in the locations where they're needed, I think is a very, very different question and I think it has implications for the type of educational program and admissions program, that sort of thing, that the schools have.
SMOOT: While all this building was going on while you were at Syracuse,you became aware of the fact that the University of Kentucky was preparing to build a new medical school.
WILLARD: Well, sort of, uh. I'd been on the Council on MedicalEducation, the American Medical Association and they participated with the Association of American Medical Colleges in accrediting medical 15:00schools and one of my assignments was to join a team to get down to Louisville and I got a little scuttlebutt then about talk about a school in Lexington. It was all pretty much pooh-poohed at Louisville and without really knowing anything about it, I went back home, didn't really think anything more about it until I got a letter from the then--Herman Donovan--president of the university, if I'd come down and interview for a job. I didn't know if I wanted to leave Syracuse and I didn't know that I wanted to go to Kentucky and didn't quite know what to do with the letter. I carried it around for two weeks and didn't 16:00answer it. Vernon
Lippard, who'd been dean at Yale, not while I was on the faculty, butI knew him a little bit, but he was dean at that time and served as a consultant here for Dr. Donovan. He served as a consultant at Florida for their school and several others and he gave me a call on the telephone and urged me to come down and at least look at it. So finally I came down and looked at it. There were four people he, President Donovan, told me they were considering. I was the first one they had invited down and, uh, so I was really, although I liked the people and I, I'd done a little research before hand and felt there was 17:00a very real need in Kentucky, particularly in Eastern Kentucky and the rural areas. I, uh, wasn't at all sure I wanted to leave Syracuse and when they told me they had four people on their list, well, I said, "Go look at the others and if we've got anything to talk about after you've done that, uh, we can talk about it then." And I kind of left with a sense of relief. Well, I didn't hear anything for a couple of months. The phone rang one night at Syracuse and I just had an instinctive feeling that it was from Lexington and it was. I had a rather hard time making a decision whether to leave Syracuse and come down here, but finally came. 18:00
SMOOT: What finally persuaded you?
WILLARD: Uh, two things primarily--three things I guess primarily.One, I felt there was a real need here in Kentucky. Second, I felt from conversations with Governor Chandler and, that we'd have good support and a good deal of freedom to develop what we thought was best and third, I didn't care much for either the board of trustees or the bureaucracy of the State University of New York. That was not a reflection on the medical school per se, it was on all the 19:00superstructure.
SMOOT: Hmm, very large operation.
WILLARD: Yeah, they had a lot of campuses and, uh, it's bigger now thanit was then.
SMOOT: Hmm. When you decided to come to Kentucky, you brought alongseveral individuals that you had worked with at Syracuse. Could you tell me a little bit about, uh, your reasoning behind bringing those individuals, such as Bob Straus and Howard Bost, others?
WILLARD: Well, first of all, I didn't want to come alone. I'd, uh, Imust have been talking to somebody that influenced me it was a good idea not to come alone, but furthermore, I didn't quite see myself here by myself trying to do a fairly big and complicated job. 20:00
WILLARD: Also, I felt that, uh, well, I had in mind a conversation withDr. John Grant, he, I guess you can say the late Dr. John Grant, he'd been with the Rockefeller Foundation and he said he'd been around to see a lot of new medical schools that were going to do great things to improve medical care in the state and serve the state and the first thing you know, you get bogged down in building plans and then you're under pressure to, uh, get the school opened and students admitted and 21:00so you go out and recruit faculty and you recruit faculty from existing schools who come with their traditional ideas of medical education. First thing you know, you've got a traditional school and he said, "If you really want to make something different, then you ought to put as money in, as much effort into, uh, well, I'll say as a generic term, people with a public health and social medicine background." So that was one thing I tried to do and, uh, I brought Bob up from Yale to, uh, Syracuse because I was impressed at how well he did and I felt we really needed a medical economist and I went around and finally located Howard Bost at Michigan. They had a school of public health 22:00there and I spent a day visiting out there. I didn't meet Howard at that time. He was away somewhere and I couldn't make the chairman of his department really quite understand what I thought I wanted, but I guess finally I persuaded him. He said that Howard was the best person that he knew about. He'd be the first graduate in, uh, medical economics with a PhD from the University of Michigan and matters were left that Howard would call me when he got back and, uh, his, he was just finishing his course and wasn't located and he did and we invited 23:00him to Syracuse and we concluded a deal and he, he came. That was two. I thought we ne-, needed at least one clinician in this outfit and Dick Noback, uh, I thought had done a pretty good job at Syracuse. I had recruited him from Cornell and he was running an outpatient clinic, so he was number three and then we just hired a biostatistician from Syracuse and I felt guilty about hiring him then walking off. So I offered him the choice of either coming with us or staying at 24:00Syracuse. He elected to come with us and that was, uh, Alan Ross, who stayed with us for several years before he went to the Hopkins School of Public Health and Hygiene and later became chairman of their Department of Biostatistics. That was the initial five and, but we needed other people and gradually added them. Uh, we needed a hospital administrator and Howard Bost scratched around and found Dick Wittrup. Somewhere along the line we needed, I knew we'd need the social work in a hospital and Leone Renna and Grace White were at Syracuse and I 25:00don't think sufficiently appreciated and they, they were willing to come and then we had all of the usual departments, starting with the, uh, uh, basic sciences. I didn't know much about the people, much less about the subject matter in many cases, but I did a lot of visiting to medical schools and talking with department chairmen and, uh, picked up a good many suggestions and talked to a good many people. Some of them wouldn't consider Kentucky. They thought it was the backwoods, barefoot part of the country. But others were rather intrigued by the challenge of a new school and, uh, the opportunity they thought 26:00it, it, uh, offered and so we went through the basic sciences that way and, uh, then we had the clinical fields to do and while not everybody was a star, I think out of that initial group a very high percentage went on to, uh, more responsible jobs in other institutions. It, uh, I don't think we were able to replace them with as good people as we lost. I think if that initial group had been willing to stay together, 27:00which is more than I could expect them to do when you get offered good jobs like Ed Pellegrino to build a new school at Stony Brook and, uh, chairmanships of departments elsewhere and Kurt Deuschle at Mount Sinai as a named professorship, uh, an endowment. Uh, you can't quarrel with people leaving for those opportunities, but I don't think we were nearly as successful in many cases, I won't say every case, in getting as good people as we lost.
SMOOT: Hmm. You were trying to do something different in the medical28:00school at the University of Kentucky. Uh, something innovative and it was beyond just the regular challenge that you would have faced, um, had you been starting a medical school. Were the people that you had talked to here at Kentucky aware of the fact that you wanted to do something, not just to build a medical school and a medical center here, but you wanted to do something really different in medical training?
WILLARD: I don't know how well to answer that.
WILLARD: Um, I told them what I wanted and who recommended, the peoplethat we wanted to appoint and by and large Frank Dickey, then president, uh, was quite supportive so we had no real problem in, uh, getting the appointments so that, uh--we also, we had, uh, the accreditation 29:00process on a new school is a bit complicated and prolonged. They want you to have a pre-consultation visit and then a visit while it's developing and then a visit when you get your first students and then later on the visits depend how the program goes. Now, we got good marks by and large and the accrediting group and, uh, I don't think that hurt anything with the administration and board of trustees. Uh, I think we made it pretty clear that we wanted to try to render service through education. The areas where it was needed, in Eastern 30:00Kentucky particularly, and we put a good deal of emphasis there and, uh, that was sort of Happy Chandler's excuse for supporting the school and we had very good relations with the state department of finance and the governor's office in the early days. Later, when the, with other presidents and a larger university and growing bureaucracy, uh, they kind of closed that channel off to us, but, uh, we, we did a lot better 31:00when we could have direct access to the people making decisions. We didn't get what we wanted all the time, but I think we got, we really got about all we could use in those very early days financially.
SMOOT: Hmm. Was the, uh, Kentucky Medical Foundation very helpful in,in fund raising and getting money?
WILLARD: I think they were very helpful in getting through thelegislature and the public the idea of a medical school. Quite frankly, we didn't know quite how to use 'em after we were here. We didn't really have an ongoing program and, uh, we were still building 32:00one and, uh, some of the people in the, uh, foundation had rather different ideas than we had. I think they had a view of something like the foundation at the University of Oklahoma. I suppose they've still got about the same pattern, but, uh, that foundation would go out and raise money and although they'd turn it over to the school to use, they usually dictated how it was to be used and we didn't think that made any sense, that, uh, they had the program dictated by people really outside the school, the university and so I think we threw some cold water on people that might financially and in other ways have been more 33:00helpful then they, then they were then.
WILLARD: Now, since then, since I've left, uh, there's been thisremarkable growth here on the campus. I don't know just what hocus pocus the president and Pete Bosomworth and others have used, but, uh, they've sure raised a lot of private money and done a lot of things that we didn't, didn't do.
SMOOT: Do you recall the, uh, Will Clayton gift of Cave Hill to?
WILLARD: Yeah, very well.
SMOOT: (laughs) Did that create any difficulties for you or, uh?
WILLARD: A little bit, not major. Um, at first it sounded like a goodidea, but when we looked it over it needed a lot of work done on the 34:00place. The lane was very narrow and a mile or more out to the main highway and some distance. My wife didn't, uh, like to drive that well and we couldn't see entertaining without a lot of work done on that road so there could be some people passing. If they could do that, and nobody was willing to put up any money for maintenance and operation of the place.
WILLARD: And so we never accepted it ourselves and I think some of thepeople, like Brick Chambers who, uh, helped, uh, in getting it, uh, 35:00were sort of disappointed in us.
WILLARD: But we stayed where we were, at 501 North Broadway, and, uh,and while I think some people were annoyed, it didn't make a great deal of difference. Ultimately, I guess it got turned over to the state and went to the lieutenant governor or governor or somebody has it as his residence now. If they'd, uh, turned it over with a, a, really decent endowment for maint-, maintenance and operation, grounds keeper, fix the road up and do all the internal work that was needed, I expect we'd have gone.
WILLARD: But otherwise it looked to us like kind of a white elephant.
SMOOT: From what I've read, I've been impressed that intentions were good36:00on both sides obviously. Everybody wanted to get the medical center, medical school built, but with the foundation often times they really were not very well coordinated with what the university's outlook and philosophy should be and what the Medical Center philosophy should be. It was kind of all three groups were kind of working unto themselves.
SMOOT: --is that correct?
WILLARD: I think that's not a bad conclusion. Uh, I wasn't so muchaware of a problem between the Medical Center and the university, mainly because we didn't insist. We made it clear; however; I remember writing to Frank Dickey of the things we felt that we had to have if we were going to live in Cave Hill and, uh, those were never 37:00really responded to in a positive way and, uh, Russ White was the, uh, executive secretary and Russ was very helpful to us in a public relations way in terms of setting up meetings and in our early days we went around the state to try to get acquainted with people and groups and he's a nice fellow, but, uh, we didn't really know quite how else to use him and we didn't really need money for building at that particular time and we didn't have enough going and maybe enough imagination to project some things. There was also a little bit of an 38:00argument on the location of the Medical Center. Uh, Brick Chambers and others wanted it put back much further on the farm so there's bigger expansion room and while I thought that was all right, the plans had gone ahead, uh, with the architect even before I came in its present location and rightly or wrongly we were very anxious to get this thing under contract before Chandler was out of office and to move it, redo the plans for a new location even if the university had agreed, and 39:00I'm not sure they would have agreed with the agricultural people were a bit protective of their land, uh, so we never supported the idea. Now, in retrospect I think it would have been a much better location for the Medical Center in view of all that's happened since, but, uh, but we got the thing under, under contract in time, just a few days really before Chandler's term expired, you know, all of it. Now, Bert Combs who followed him was very supportive and probably of all the governors that I had any association with, he, although Chandler was 40:00very supportive, I think Bert Combs was the best of the lot.
SMOOT: Ho-, why? What, what did he do in particular that you found,uh, very helpful. Well, first he was supportive of a project that he didn't have anything to do with starting.
WILLARD: And, uh, oh, we'd go down, there's nothing too particular--requests for budgets and that sort of thing--he came over and we had lunch one day at the Campbell House with the department chairmen, he talked and gave a little pep talk to the people and he was very friendly and I think he was a genuinely intelligent person and less politically motivated than Chandler was. 41:00
SMOOT: Let me turn the tape.
[Pause in recording.]
SMOOT: That's an interesting, uh, conclusion. Uh, had--?
WILLARD: Now, the interesting little, uh, side light about that becauseof the kind of political aura around Chandler, we would not, we called this the University of Kentucky Medical Center and, uh, Happy noticed that, he noticed the letterheads were that way and he didn't like it very well. Some years though it was probably three, three, four years 42:00later, uh, Ralph Angelucci, who was then on the board, uh, spoke to me about it, couldn't we get Chandler's name on it. I thought by that time, I thought that enough time had gone by that it would not present any major problem. A few of our department chairmen who were not admirers of Chandler, didn't care much for the change, but we made it and I think it satisfied Happy and, far as that goes and, uh, I don't think it did us any harm.
SMOOT: Didn't really alienate any of the other, uh, governors such asCombs, who had been his opponent in '55 for governor; uh, it had been a very bitter campaign.
WILLARD: Well, he never made any complaints about it.43:00
WILLARD: He might have liked it better had it been the other way, butI'm, I'm not sure. I think Combs is a big enough man that, uh, that that kind of thing wouldn't have greatly influenced his judgment.
SMOOT: Did you find Ned Breathitt supportive as well?
WILLARD: Yeah, I didn't think Ned was as strong a governor as Combs, butwe got along pretty well with Breathitt.
SMOOT: Did you deal directly with most of the governors in terms of, uh,stating the case for the Medical Center?
WILLARD: Most of the business was done through the Department ofFinance. Howard Bost was the chief liaison there and Howard did a 44:00remarkable job in interpreting to them what we were doing, why we needed to do it and all the rest and I think Howard sold the Department of Finance and in those days--and maybe still--you know, the governor's budget is the first bill on the legislative calendar and it almost always went through as submitted. So if you got in the budget, governor's budget, you were practically in. Now, Alabama is very different. It's about the last thing that gets passed--(Smoot laughs)- -and there's a lot of haggling that goes on.
SMOOT: I think Dr. Sprague has something to ask us. If I may I'd liketo step back now and ask you a little bit about the development of the 45:00philosophy of the Medical Center because I think it was unique as most medical centers go and it was certainly different from the traditional, uh, medical center.
WILLARD: Have you seen a copy of that early statement?
SMOOT: I've seen parts of it.
WILLARD: I was trying to think, uh, you know, I sort of forgot aboutit. It was an influential document in recruiting some of the faculty we got. Some years ago, uh, down in Alabama, Kurt Deuschle, who, would, was first chairman of the Department of Community Medicine here, a remarkable person, came down and before a public audience, uh, 46:00commented on that document and I didn't even know where a copy was and he sent me a copy of it. He said, "We should've published it, but we didn't." Well, we wrote what we thought. I, guess, did the original drafting, but everybody in that small team took a crack at editing it and putting it in its final form.
WILLARD: But it, we didn't think it was important enough to publish,but maybe we could have got some credits in this publish and perish world if we'd--(Smoot laughs)--uh, if we'd, uh, done it. But we tried to, uh, oh, should we say humanize medicine and tried to, uh, view the 47:00physician as a responsible citizen in the community, not just a doctor and I've forgotten what all else, uh, was in it, but, um, I think it was a pretty good document myself--
WILLARD: --as I think back. Somewhere in my files in home, where Iprobably can't find them, there, I've got that copy, uh, Kurt Deuschle sent me a copy. If you ever need the whole copy you could probably get one from him if you can't find one around the Medical School.
SMOOT: They have pretty good files over there. I, I'll find one. The48:00details I'm sure I can, I can glean from that document, but you hit on the major points. The humanizing as you put it or, or perhaps better an increased social consciousness--
SMOOT: --to be, uh, taught to young physicians. Uh, how did that--
WILLARD: --as well as a good scientific training--
SMOOT: --of course, but this was an added dimension I think--
WILLARD: --yeah, um-hm--
SMOOT: --uh, how do you think that worked?
WILLARD: I think it worked with some people, but not with others, butin the early days of recruiting, uh, you didn't have a whole lot of people. Gradually, worked up to ten or twelve or so on. When we had 49:00a new person come in we'd have a dinner somewhere and we really grilled those people, uh, pretty good and we didn't take people that we didn't think were, uh, in agreement with the document and subscribed to it and I think a number of people did that and in, in addition I think the two new things we did that weren't generally prevalent then was Bob Straus' Department of Behavioral Science and he's done remarkably well with that and Kurt Deuschle's Department of Community Medicine, which I think was 50:00exceedingly good while he was here and went to pot after he left.
WILLARD: And I think they're trying to rebuild it now.
SMOOT: Um-hm. Uh--
WILLARD: But the other departments cooperated, uh, sending people outinto the field and, oh, clinics, consultations, uh, things of that sort and also, uh, serving on committees, community service and I think of all the people in that group, if I had to name one who I think did the most for Kentucky it would be Howard Bost.
WILLARD: Uh, it wasn't so much within the medical school, although he51:00was influential there, in ways of policy development, but, uh, he was active in state government. He was on Medi-, chairman of the Medicaid committee and on the Certificate of Need committee for hospital planning and, uh, he, he, he's very well respected among those who were concerned and interested in those things and holding the line against, uh, unnecessary developments. A lot of that's gone now, with Howard and his politics has gotten its hold, but, uh, I think that if I had to name one person, I'd name Howard. 52:00
WILLARD: And that's not to detract from the contributions of a numberof others.
SMOOT: Hmm. Obviously your background had something to do with thissocial awareness and consciousness in this idea of, uh, bringing a more humanistic sort of, uh, facet into medical education. Uh, what most influenced your own ideas and opinions on, on this subject? Uh, why had you become so aware of the need for, uh, this sort of training in, in medical training?
WILLARD: Well, I think in some of the people I was in contact withat Yale--the Department of Public Health and Professor Winslow and 53:00Professor Hesscock there and they also had contacts --Lester Evans in the Commonwealth Fund for example was quite influential as well as financially supportive in modest ways of our beginnings in Syracuse and Lexington and then from reading, uh, there are some papers I remember about how, how the medical education process tends to make medical students more cynical and, uh, I think a feeling that, uh, medicine 54:00is becoming more and more kind of commercialized. Many of the doctors were more interested in making a pile of money than they were in service and areas of real importance like public health that in many states is not, uh, really well supported. I thought it was important, I guess. I'd had some public health exposure and training at Yale and, uh, so Idon't know, these things all sort of kind of, kind of came 55:00together as--and I think the early group that we gathered, uh, I think tended to reinforce each other in this. Uh, I can't say the same for some of the later ones, but, uh.
SMOOT: When you were trying to recruit, you mentioned that you didnot bring in anyone who you felt was not supportive of the general philosophy of--
WILLARD: --yeah, we made some mistakes.
SMOOT: Okay. Some people really were not supportive, were they?
WILLARD: They told us they were before they came, but when they came,they weren't.
SMOOT: Hmm. Did that prove to be a very disruptive, uh, facet of theMedical Center? 56:00
WILLARD: To some extent. Ben Eiseman was, Department of Surgery, uh, hewas really very popular among the medical students.
WILLARD: A very, I think, well respected in the surgical community, buthe was much more interested in developing a private institute of which he'd be kind of the, the emperor, if you will. (Smoot laughs) I called him down to the office one Sunday afternoon and I told him that I, I didn't think he really fitted in very well with this philosophy that we had and he said that, uh, he understood what I was talking about, 57:00we had enough arguments in faculty meetings about various issues. He said, "I came here to develop a good Department of Surgery and I intend to do that and when I do it I'm going to leave." I, I never did try to fire him, but two years later he called me up and said he was going back to Colorado, but I don't--many surgeons are a breed of their own, John excepted--(Smoot laughs)--uh. I, I think there's good surgical training and good surgical work. In terms of a philosophy of medicine 58:00and where medicine is going, I, I didn't see very much coming out of many of the surgeons. There are exceptions, but, uh.
SMOOT: Hmm. Had he built a good department?
WILLARD: Yes, it was very well recognized nationally. So in terms oftraditional standards, you, you couldn't fault him and the students thought he was great. So I don't know, there are a lot of conflicting values sometimes that have to be rationalized.
SMOOT: Well, you were not looking for something in terms of traditionalvalues really, were you?
WILLARD: Not really.
SMOOT: You had set up a system where, uh, members of the faculty would59:00receive salary, a set salary, and nothing beyond that would be accepted on a personal basis, but would go into a fund. Is that correct?
WILLARD: That's right.
SMOOT: How did you find that in ter-, uh, how did the faculty acceptthat? Uh, did you, did that create any problems in recruiting or did it actually serve to be a positive influence in, in recruiting?
WILLARD: Well, the surgeons never really like it. Howard Bost wasthe architect of the document that we had, "The Physicians' Service Plan," and he sold it to the then existing faculty and he sold it to the local medical society to obviate town gown problems. He sold 60:00it to the Department of Finance. At that particular time, the, a good deal of criticism about an alleged slush fund that the Kentucky Medical Foundation had, I don't think it really had it, but, uh, it was a talking point for people who wanted to criticize, but Howard had it so that it all laid out on the table, nothing under the table. The Department of Finance could come and look at all the books and, if they wanted to and we never had a bit of trouble with the state or the public on that score. What we did have trouble with was with some of the faculty lead mostly by surgeons, although I think there were 61:00some others in the better paying medical specialties that, uh, didn't like it because they couldn't get the income they would otherwise have gotten. The plan broke down finally because state appropriations did not enable us to maintain competitive salaries and so little by little we, we gave a bit and we'd turn some back to the departments for discretionary use. During the time I was here this never got to be very large, but, uh, it was there and we also insisted that the basic 62:00science department get some of it. It was a small, small fraction, but, uh, I think it made them feel a lot better and gave them a little more freedom, but as the discrepancy between what we could do with the state dollars and what the going salary rate was around the country, we had to give more and more on this, uh, uh, Physicians' Service Plan as it was designed. It was after I left, but, uh, the faculty, I guess, those that thought they could do a lot better financially, uh, 63:00and I think maybe the dean at that time, who I don't think shared my philosophy on it, uh, finally got the system scrapped and a new system in that, uh, I don't know exactly how this one works, but I'm sure that those that earn the money get the most.
SMOOT: Hmm. There'd been a problem all along with, with the salaryissue, I gather well at least in the initial stages there was some problem with the salary since, uh, the state had put a limit on how much the president of the universities could make and so forth. Uh, in the initial stages of the development of the Medical Center here were lots of physicians that were going to be coming in and were certainly not going to, uh, make the low salaries that they had in mind 64:00originally. Is that so?
WILLARD: Oh, it was kind of a funny thing. Uh, I think my initialsalary here was, was twenty thousand. President Donovan's salary had been twelve thousand. They made Dickey's twenty-one thousand. This is before I came. I got to it keep straight between Alabama and, well, I, I don't know, I, I can't remember a real problem with the state or university. Oh, we'd hear some griping and criticism now and then, but there wasn't anything that was very critical, it was just a matter of how far the money would go and as long as we could keep our money lying 65:00idle so that it just wasn't swallowed up into the university's total general fund, uh, at least we knew what we had to work with. We had that plus what we could generate.
SMOOT: Hmm. You had recruited, uh--I think Carl Delabar has been overin that office ever since the beginning, has he not?
WILLARD: Yeah, Carl was with the Department of Finance when we came.
WILLARD: And one of the jobs that Howard did in his relationships withthe Department of Finance--
WILLARD: --I think his approach and philosophy and ours, uh, appealed to66:00Carl very much and I think maybe a university job offered a little more security than the state--
WILLARD: --job where the governor chang-, make his appointments. Sohe came to the Medical Center. He, he was very good. Avery good financial man.
SMOOT: Hmm. Let me go back to, uh, just briefly on a, achange that tookplace. When you had come to Kentucky, it was right when the transition from the Donovan to the Dickey administration was occurring.
WILLARD: Yeah, in fact I, I waited before accepting until it hadactually occurred--
WILLARD: --but just after it occurred--67:00
SMOOT: Did you find Dr. Dickey, uh, easy to work with, uh,accommodating to what you had in mind and?
WILLARD: On the whole, yes. We had only one falling out. Uh, I'm notsure to this day whether I was right or not, but, uh, our relationships with other departments on the campus were pretty good except in the area of microbiology. We had a policy of only one department in a discipline, you had a department of microbiology in the university and most medical schools had departments of microbiology by various names and I would not accept the university's department. In retrospect, 68:00uh, maybe it would have saved trouble if we'd gone ahead and accepted it, uh, but we feel--felt that they were a bit behind the times and weren't really on the cutting edge of microbiology--the cell biology--and Dickey finally issued a policy statement at some faculty meeting that, I was, it was just before I had left for a meeting up to, I think it was Montreal or Quebec, I guess it was and the more I 69:00read that statement the less I liked it and when I got up to Quebec I called Dickey up and said, "If this is the way it's got to be, I think we need to talk. I don't know if I can, uh, live with this," and I turned around and came home. I didn't even stay for the meeting. We had a session. The whole issue never got quickly or cleanly resolved. Finally got resolved by changing a name in the Medical Center and developing a Department of Cell Biology with the responsibility for 70:00microbiology and so we never took the university's department. I'm not sure to this day whether we might not have been better to take it and worked with them and, uh, maybe helped to strengthen them in ways we thought they ought to be strengthened, but Morris Scherago was a strong and proud man and I think from the general university's point of view was probably a good professor and a good microbiologist. So I'm not throwing any bones or stones at him, but that was the decision I made, right or wrong and that's about the only thing that created very 71:00much turmoil. Occasionally, uh, a little bit of an argument with the finance department in the university, but, uh, it wasn't anything very, very serious.
SMOOT: What about with Jack Oswald? He had an entirely different viewon education and how an institution of higher learning should be administered than had Frank Dickey.
WILLARD: Yeah. Jack wanted to centralize things and he wanted to closeall the channels to Frankfort except through his office and his finance man he had in there was, I think, much less understanding of medical 72:00center goals and aspirations. The one--I'd say Jack complicated the job very much. I was tempted to leave at one time, I never did, but, uh, not then. The one thing he did do, well it was good for the whole university, he got a decent retirement plan, TIAA going, the old university retirement plan was an antiquated, inadequate thing and, uh, the university ought to be very grateful to Jack for, for that. Uh, 73:00oh, we got along generally all right, but I would not classify him as one of my favorite presidents.
SMOOT: Did he cramp your style?
SMOOT: Did he cramp your style, as they say?
WILLARD: Yeah, I'd say so.
SMOOT: Uh, did you find that when things started to go through hisoffice, uh, rather than through your office, uh, with Frankfort and so forth, that, uh?
WILLARD: They'd go through our office, but we couldn't go any furtherwith them. I'd get over to his office and, uh, get approved or disapproved and theoretically we weren't supposed to go down and talk to anybody in Frankfort, uh, about things and, uh, so I can't speak for 74:00the rest of the university, I, I kind of have a feeling that although many people liked him that not too many people were too sorry when he left.
SMOOT: Shake, uh, shook up the boat a bit too much.
SMOOT: Shook up the boat a bit too much for some people, huh?
WILLARD: Yeah. Um, I can understand his point of view, frankly. Youcan't really run an institution with people running around your back to somebody else to get something done, but I think his understanding 75:00of what we needed and how to get it wasn't, wasn't very good. I understand that when he went to Penn State, the dean up there liked him less than I did. (Smoot laughs)
SMOOT: Did he also institute the committee system, or exp-?
WILLARD: Oh yeah, he, he did that and, uh, that complicated a lot ofthings and whether it improved anything, I don't know. I'm a little dubious, but, uh, he did that. Revised the curriculum, um, he took our professor of medicine, Ed Pellegrino, and made him chairman of this university wide curriculum committee which interested me. I 76:00think he also took, let's see, was it Jack or Singletary? I think it was Jack that, uh, took Bob Johnson, who was our public relations man, exceedingly good person and made him the dean of student affairs and then later he went out to California. Now, he's back with the Appalachian Regional Hospital Commission, but he was very likeable and highly competent person and showed good judgment in picking him.
SMOOT: How about Dr. Singletary and his, uh, administration?
WILLARD: We got along very well. I didn't have any great problem with77:00him. His finance man I didn't care so much for, but, uh, we had no particular, uh, problems with him. He took the dean of our dental school as his, for his vice-president's. We supplied the university with a few good administrative people. Uh, I can't speak for Singletary since I, I've left for what he's done or hasn't done, but, um, I thought we got along pretty well.
SMOOT: Um-hm. Had he--78:00
WILLARD: --I liked him personally--
SMOOT: --did he maintain the pattern that had been set by, uh, Dr.Oswald?
WILLARD: Pretty much.
SMOOT: How would you evaluate the programs, the medical programs at theUniversity of Kentucky Medical Center during your years here?
WILLARD: I think medicine was pretty good. We had a few rough yearsgetting the hospital going well and actually it wasn't until after we changed administrators that I think it began to straighten out better, but hospitals are darn complicated things to run. They're expensive. 79:00I think the medic-, medical school was pretty good. I think the dental school was superior. I think nursing wasn't nearly as good as it could have been. Uh, pharmacy--that's one thing Jack Oswald did, he handed us the school of pharmacy and, uh, at about the time the dean was retiring and I think we helped that School of Pharmacy and I think we made a, well, it's a pretty darn good School of Pharmacy as far as I know and then the School of Allied Health Professions we, uh, started 80:00and I think Joe Hamburg did a good job there.
SMOOT: Without getting, uh, involved with the failings of any particularindividuals, you, uh, you mentioned that you thought the, for example the College of Nursing could have been stronger. What programs, uh-- well, I should, wait a moment, I'd better change my tape.
[Pause in recording.]81:00
SMOOT: We were talking about the, uh, College of Nursing. What programscould have made that college stronger, in your opinion or what, uh, processes should they have used to strengthen that, that college?
WILLARD: Not much of anything. I supported the dean when she wasthere, but I, I don't know, unless you get into all this philosophy of nursing. Um, Teachers College in Columbia is the sort of fountainhead of the, oh, independence of nursing, um, making it a university academic discipline versus the hospital school and all of that and not, 82:00not all of which I disagree with, but, uh, they don't know how to use physicians or rather work with the physicians very well and I think it stemmed largely from a rigidity in thinking that I attribute--stemmed from the, uh, Teachers College philosophy. That's where we got the dean from. We had a hard time finding a dean for the college. There was one person I wanted very much and that would have been first rate if I could have attracted her, but I couldn't and the market was practically 83:00bare and we took this young graduate out of a [dog barks] Teachers College and had a previous background of, oh, being the nurse in a Teachers College in the State University of New York system and nice enough person, but, uh, I don't think she knew how to work with people very well. She really didn't know how to work with doctors very well and I don't think she fitted too well into a team. I--things improved 84:00greatly when Marion McKenna came and, although I was not here much during her time, uh, and I talked with her a little bit last night. I guess they've got a, n-, new dean now that she thinks is good and if she thinks she's good, I expect she is, but I think things are probably a thousand percent better now than they were in those earlier years.
SMOOT: Hmm. How would you evaluate the success of, uh, the graduates ofthe University of Kentucky Medical School and its other Medical Center programs and schools?
WILLARD: I don't have any real way of doing that. As far as I know85:00they've done well. Roy Jarecky was telling me last night that we've got graduates in every state in the union as well as overseas, which I don't think says very much one way or another. We were hoping to train physicians that would settle in the rural areas of the state and I think there has been a great change in the numbers and distribution since the days we came. How much we contributed to that I don't know. I think we did some, but I have no figures on what percentage of the graduates remained in Kentucky and, and where they went. It happens in 86:00every medical center that the city or town where they're located will get over-populated with physicians and that's happened in Lexington I'm sure. It's happening in Tuscaloosa where I've been. But there's always a group also that go elsewhere and scatter around and I don't know how, how that's gone, but from my recollection, I think our students did pretty well in getting good internships and, uh, handled themselves pretty well as interns.
WILLARD: I, uh, I think you get a lot better appraisal from Roy, who has87:00followed these things, than I have.
SMOOT: What would you say is the current situation in medical education?
WILLARD: Well, I am not any good expert on the current situation. Thewhole field is changing so rapidly. The financing at the federal level is drying up gradually. Many more controls to try to keep down 88:00hospital costs, things of this sort and then the technology of medicine has advanced so much. You can do so much more for people, but it also costs a lot more. So I don't know, I think we're in a period of transition and change and how it's going to settle down, I, I just don't know.
SMOOT: You mentioned earlier that, yo-, that a lot of physicians hadnoticed that, uh, the field was becoming more commercialized and that they could make a great deal of money, uh, be a little bit more entrepreneurial rather than, uh, spending the majority of their time in 89:00dealing with the, uh, patients or with the research.
WILLARD: Yeah, it's getting, uh, oh, you're getting HMOs, you'regetting the proprietary hospital systems and all sorts of different practice arrangements. At one point, I, I'd never thought much of the proprietary hospital. I, at one point we'd just about gotten rid of them and now they're back bigger and stronger than ever and they're well organized and financed and managed and I think the problem there is not the quality of care. I think they've probably got good doctors 90:00in these hospitals, but, uh, they're out to make money and hospitals- -you've got to take care of people and a lot of people don't have money and the Medicaid program and Medicare programs are, are helpful, but, uh, I think it's widening the gap between the has and have nots as far as access to good medical care goes and I don't know how this is going to get ultimate resolved and get into a political discussion and, uh, well I just don't agree with the present administration so. (both 91:00laugh)
SMOOT: Do you see this, however, as, this trend towardscommercialization as a, as a--
WILLARD: --the what--
SMOOT: --the trend towards more commercialized, more proprietary sorts ofrelationships between medicine and general public as a not so positive, in fact a negative, uh, development? Something that will probably expand and then some other change and transition will take place?
WILLARD: I'm sure there'll be other changes and I don't know whatthey're all going to be. Uh, there is no doubt that, that the trend of the inflation and cost of living and the cost of medical and hospital care are has far exceeded that of the general cost of living and, uh, 92:00while some of that you can attribute to new technology and things of that sort, uh, somehow this should be brought into line. I'm not sure how it's going to happen.
WILLARD: Maybe we're going to end up like the British and, uh, I don'tthink the doctors are overly happy there and I suspect you can get better care here if you can pay for it.
SMOOT: What do you think has been the impact of the Medical Center onthe Commonwealth of Kentucky?
WILLARD: Well, I like to think it's been good. I, I know there's a93:00lot of outreach programs that have gone beyond the walls of the Center here into the rural parts and smaller towns of the state. Not only doctors settling there, uh, but also, well, this --------?? a regional medical educational system. I think it's valuable. I think more than that, uh, I don't know how long this will last, which difference, uh, but I think particularly while Howard was here we had a great effect within state government and then policies like, oh, Certificate of 94:00Need, Medicaid program and things of that sort. I think Howard did a remarkable job in controlling the line so to speak. Uh, now, trying to make more access, but also avoiding abuses and, uh, unnecessary, uh, procedures and medication. I, I think there's a very real, real impact there and I'd like to think that, I can't prove this, that our graduates were decent social conscious about medicine and its role and, uh, aren't exclusively involving themselves in trying to protect their 95:00own vested interests.
SMOOT: Do you think that the University of Kentucky Medical Center hashad an impact beyond Kentucky?
WILLARD: Yeah. I think, uh, disciplines like behavioral science andcommunity medicine have spread to some extent. I think we've sent quite a number of people out to be faculty and heads of institutions. Um, Ed Pellegrino, uh, built Stony Brook, he's now professor of medicine and ethics at Georgetown. We've sent two or three surgeons 96:00to academic positions that I know of. We've supplied at least three professors of community medicine that I know of. I don't know the number, but I think there's a fair number from behavioral science field that have gone out into other medical centers and I'm sure the other departments have, uh, turned out people who have been good academicians. I can't give you any numbers on that. I think probably also, uh, although there's, uh, you might say a lot of competition 97:00for limited dollars with Louisville now, I, I suspect we indirectly upgraded Louisville a lot.
SMOOT: Something of, they needed a little competition to, uh, to improvetheir own situation.
WILLARD: Yeah, I think so. Now, it's true in the very early days,uh, they were a bit, some of them at least, a bit bitter because they felt that we were getting all the state money that they ought to have had. I think it is true that we got most of the state money in the very early days. Since then I gather they've been doing a lot better, maybe better than we've been doing, I don't know. I know the whole 98:00government system between Louisville and UK has been under discussion and review and how that's going to turn out, I don't know. I'm going to leave you for a minute.
[Pause in recording.]
SMOOT: What's been the general attitude of your colleagues around thecountry towards the University of Kentucky Medical Center?
WILLARD: Well, I can't speak recently, but I think that in the earlydays it was pretty good.
SMOOT: Generally saw the Medical Center at Kentucky as being one thatwould rank as highly as other medical centers of comparable size and in comparable situations, uh, even better in some things perhaps? 99:00
WILLARD: Yeah, I, uh, think as far as the average state university, uh,it ranked at, uh, well as--not in the Ivy League class, uh--different mission as well as different resources and history, but I think they thought it was pretty good.
SMOOT: Let me step back and ask you some more, if I may, about, uh,the relationship between the University of Kentucky and the University of Louisville. Uh, were there ever any great difficulties in your experience as dean here at Kentucky in dealing with the, say the dean, at the University of Louisville School of Medicine, uh, College there?
WILLARD: No, it may be because I'm too stupid to recognize some100:00problems, but I didn't take the job here until I'd met with President Davidson, with Murray Kinsman, who was then dean, and I'd set, they'd set up a meeting and included Russell Teague, the state health officer. We talked; they were very frank and, uh, I got along all right, I thought. I'd hear rumors from time to time of, uh, people that would like to knife us in Louisville, but I never really had any personal experience that, uh, upset me particularly, uh, felt that we were 101:00getting a game of dirty pool played against us. Maybe we were at times, but I wasn't aware of it.
SMOOT: And apparently it didn't hurt you any.
WILLARD: No, I'm impervious to it. (both laugh)
SMOOT: What do you think has been the most important achievement thattook place at the Medical Center while you were there?
WILLARD: Oh, gee, I--
SMOOT: --sweeping question I'm afraid, but--(laughs)--
WILLARD: --I don't have any, any real idea. I think we created a qualityinstitution. I think we helped upgrade the University of Kentucky. I 102:00think we brought in a lot more money for research and other activities, uh, but I, I don't know, I think you'd have to ask somebody else. I, I think back and some of the things that I'd hoped we might have accomplished seem to me have retrogressed. On the other hand, there have been new developments, the cancer center, the aging center, uh, the building program, a lot of things that I really couldn't, didn't, didn't dream of, so I guess it kind of depends on what your values 103:00are. I sort of have a feeling and I mention this once in awhile that the kind of different things that we wanted to accomplish, uh, sort of slipped by the way, but my friends who like to cheer me up, uh, tell me, well, there are many residuals of them around and a lot of them spread elsewhere in the country and so I just don't know. I can't evaluate, uh, what my contribution to the university was.
SMOOT: Do you have anything that gave you particular satisfaction thatyou would, that you would place on the, uh, in the first position as 104:00being the most satisfying thing that occurred while you were here at the Medical Center?
WILLARD: I think the three things that are Bob Straus' behavioral sciencedevelopment, uh, Kurt Deuschle's department of community medicine while he was here, not after he left, and Howard Bost's contribution to both the Medical Center and the state. The other things, uh, I think some of the other departments were very good and did good work. I think the university hospital, uh, there are a couple of things. I really didn't 105:00have much to do with them except to support 'em, but one was our drug information center and, uh, the other was a chaplain program. Those were mostly, were primarily Wittrup's, uh, innovations. As I look at things, uh, trying to size myself up, it's not that I did so very much as I think I gave a lot of people the opportunity to do things. I think maybe, uh, that was the main contribution.
SMOOT: You brought in an awful lot of young people in very responsiblepositions, did you not?
WILLARD: Well, I don't think I did much of that, I, I think I may have106:00facilitated it, I offered the opportunity and support.
SMOOT: Are there any other subjects that you think we should discuss? I,I know I've missed so many things, uh, it'd be difficult to know where to begin. I'd have to start all over again perhaps, but any particular points or subjects that you think I should be aware of in developing a history of the Medical Center?
WILLARD: (pause) The only, uh, well, I don't know how the future isgoing to go in medical center development, but I think that we like a 107:00lot of people underestimated the, the growth. I don't know if we could have built bigger in the beginning or, or not. Uh, we planned for seventy-five students and were soon out of space and robbing Peter to pay Paul in trying to accommodate people, and the other thing is that I think that this whole area of, uh, social medicine, community medicine. I thought we were providing for it and in a sense we did, but far 108:00from adequately.
SMOOT: What would you have done differently?
WILLARD: I'd have tried to put more resources into them, I think.
SMOOT: Money, personnel, et cetera.
WILLARD: Yeah, um-hm, but I think as far as an evaluation and, you'llhave to get from other people. I, I'm really not a good, good judge and sometimes when I look back at some of the things that haven't happened I get a little pessimistic about, about it, but, uh, I guess I shouldn't in view of all that's been going on and the growth that's 109:00happened.
SMOOT: Are there any other subjects you would care to discuss?
WILLARD: I don't think so. John, do I need to talk about anythingelse? Oh, I'll just add that my wife was 50 percent responsible for the public relations of the Medical Center.
SMOOT: That's very important.
WILLARD: Well, I think it was true.
SMOOT: She liked to become involved with the community and organizationsand so forth and.
SMOOT: Very important facet, I would think, of anybody having a littleassistance on the side like that and very close assistance at that.
WILLARD: I don't know that we did as good as public relations job then110:00as is being done now, but, uh.
SMOOT: Well, it's changed a lot.
WILLARD: It sure has.
SMOOT: Do you have any personal anecdotes you would like to relateregarding the Medical Center or any particular individuals there that you were, had an interesting experience with, uh?
WILLARD: (pause) I guess the other thing I ought to mention is the, at,not that I did it, but the health service since John Sprague joined is tremendously improved over what it was when we came. We had, when Jack 111:00Oswald, he wanted to put it under the, uh, Office of Student Affairs and we resisted it and Jack Mulligan resisted it. He was then the director and it didn't get changed and I, I personally think it's for the better and they figured out methods to finance the thing and so I think the Student Health Service is going well.
SMOOT: Who else do you think I should talk to regarding the history ofthe Medical Center?
WILLARD: I don't know who all you've talked to. I'd suggest that ifyou haven't done it already that--sit down with people like Howard Bost 112:00and John and Bob Straus and some of the few old timers that remain like Harold Rosenbaum and, uh, get their suggestions. I don't know what all these various interviews add up to and what kind of conclusions you can draw from them. We were, uh, I wasn't responsible for getting Pete Bosomworth here. Uh, the hospital was about to open and we didn't have an anesthesiologist and Ben Eiseman found Pete Bosomworth somewhere and, uh, he did come here. I thought he fitted in very well with our 113:00philosophy and what we were doing and, uh, as I left I recommended him for the, his present job and you can judge, judge for yourself how, how that has gone, but the visible evidence seems substantial. I'm going to terminate this, John.
SMOOT: Very good.
WILLARD: I'm going to lie down for just a few minutes before lunch whileyou visit.
SPRAGUE: All right.
SMOOT: Thank you, Dr. Willard.
[End of interview.]