BIRDWHISTELL: Mr. Sims, we can begin then by finding out when you first met Earle Clements and what your first impressions were of him as a person and as a politician.

SIMS: Well, first met him when he visited Cynthiana here as a candidate in '47, and he just asked me to accompany him to Brooksville and Augusta. And I spent the day with him and was just impressed with his force and strength and determination and apparent knowledge of politics, ins and outs, and ups and downs, and that's about all.

BIRDWHISTELL: Was this during the primary campaign against Harry Lee Waterfield?

SIMS: Yes, it was.

BIRDWHISTELL: And you were supporting--

SIMS: Well, (laughs) he kind of got me that day, for 1:00sure.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is that right?

SIMS: Yeah. I hadn't made any commitment up to that time, and I didn't make any then, but I was impressed with the fellow. What I liked about him, he had been county attorney, no, he had been county clerk, county judge, I think--


SIMS: Sheriff, being in county politics for about sixteen or twenty years, something like that. And then of course he'd--don't think he'd been in--yeah, he'd been in Congress--

BIRDWHISTELL: In Congress about twelve years.

SIMS: Been state senator and been a member of the General Assembly. He just impressed me as a knowledgeable-type person and a very practical person.

BIRDWHISTELL: So when you went out into the county here, into the small communities, did you find out he was a good campaigner out among the people?

SIMS: Oh, the best, the best. I've often said that if he'd have gone to the national convention and could have got everybody 2:00in the washroom, one at a time, (laughs) he would have probably got the nomination. He was just a country-store politician and did it to a queen or king's taste.

BIRDWHISTELL: Do you think in the primary of '47 against Waterfield that it was mostly the personality difference that caused him to win, or were there any issues?

SIMS: I don't know of any special issues. He just convinced people that he was a doer, and I'm not saying that Waterfield wasn't a doer, because he's done a lot of things in life that couldn't have done and haven't certainly done. And I don't know what the relationship was in Western Kentucky politics, but I was just 3:00impressed with him; that's about all I would say.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was curious as to the general election, too, where he ran against the Republican, Eldon Dummitt. Any particular things about that campaign that stand out in your mind?

SIMS: No, no. Of course, in '47 Roosevelt still overshadowed everything, even in death, maybe immediately more popular in death than he was in life. Everybody was kind of grieved at his passing. Being a Democrat itself took care of Dummitt. Dummitt was a very nice gentleman, though. I remember him very pleasantly. I think he'd been Attorney General under [Governor Simeon] Willis. Lexington lawyer.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. Did Clements return to Cynthiana during the general election 4:00campaign and campaign here again, do you recall?

SIMS: I think he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: What kind of orator was he? Did he give any talks around here that you were able to listen to?

SIMS: Well, yeah, but he wasn't--he wouldn't quite measure up to what you call an orator in the sense that Barkley was an orator, A.O. Stanley and Ed P. Morrow, folks like that that in my time you kind of looked up to them, imagined that you might be like them some day. (laughs) It would have been far more fortunate if you could do things like that. No, he was just a straight talker, talked about facts rather than theories.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, then when he became governor, he did quite a few things, of course. One was raising the gas tax for 5:00the rural road program.

SIMS: Well, that was one of his strong points.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you find that that was accepted here very well?

SIMS: Oh, very, very, very good; you call it, I think--what did they call it?--farm-to-the-market bill. And gasoline was cheap then--what was the tax, four cents, or--no that was very popular, because the turnpike roads were in bad shape, and the counties didn't have any equipment. The counties in that time were not modernized in any sense, when it came to road building--they were just plain, country roads.

BIRDWHISTELL: What about Governor Clements' actions on the Day Law in Kentucky in '48?

SIMS: I don't hardly recall any of that.

BIRDWHISTELL: So it really wasn't a--

SIMS: I don't think so--he might have he no doubt reminded 6:00the Negroes of his position in the matter, but I don't even recall that. I don't recall that there were any Negroes in particular about the state headquarters, and I wasn't there every day in the week. I'd average about three days; Wednesday, Thursday and Friday would be normal days.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, another thing that was done during the Clements administration was the creation of the state police force. Did you find that there was any reaction here in Harrison County against--

SIMS: No, but there was in neighboring counties. Bracken County, over here, never did allow 'em to make an arrest or use 'em at all. Everybody was trying to--just opposed to all-dressed-up police. They claimed they had ----------(??) in their trousers. (laughs)


BIRDWHISTELL: It really didn't cause any--

SIMS: Oh, no, no, I don't recall that they went too far then. I think they were welcome here in Cynthiana, working in conjunction with--I think their first jurisdiction was just traffic laws, wasn't it? I don't recall that they--

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, looking back over his administration, then, as governor before the '50 campaign, what did you consider his major achievements? Did you feel like he'd been an effective governor, a strong governor?

SIMS: Yes, I really did. I don't know, I don't really know what he did do, except he seemed to lay the--you'd have to give him credit for laying the foundation or helping to lay the foundation for industrial development, and I think that your corporation laws 8:00were all rewritten during his administration, and they were more liberal than the old corporate law, and the whole thing was to liberalize and kind of make our corporate laws compare with the North and the Eastern corporate laws. For instance, up until that time you had to meet in the state where you were incorporated, and in your principal place of business, and I forget what--[an] outstanding example was some railroad directors. I don't know what the name of the railroad was but they met down here at Bardstown, I think it was, or Midway, 9:00or someplace had to come for hundreds of miles to just attend a corporate meeting, and now I don't know of any objections to having a corporate meeting in an airplane, maybe flying over the Mediterranean Sea. And he stressed that. Then, of course, airplanes were in their infancy, and airports for county seat towns were very much in their infancy. And he stressed that. He thought that local airports would go in places like Cynthiana, getting a factory. It all kind of dovetailed in together. That and perhaps, in my opinion, that and the roads, the farm-to-market roads were outstanding in my memory. I had no occasion 10:00to remember any of them.

BIRDWHISTELL: He seemed to follow policies that were far-reaching, you know, in the future, things that would set--

SIMS: Well, yes. I've often thought that he worked on the turnpike roads in anticipation of doing bigger things for the bigger roads, but he felt like it was only fair to give the so-called little man, give him his dessert first and then put him in the humor of helping to build the bigger highways. That the so-called little man might not ever have occasion to use. Another thing that stands out in my mind, and I don't know whether he started 11:00it or just built it up, was that Legislative Research Commission. That was a big thing that he discussed a lot and was on his mind a lot, and that just kept--one old representative told me, he says, "That kept us from being plumb ignorant." And the old way of going down there was to--I think they paid 'em ten dollars a day and just their way down there once, and the expenses of going down there and coming back, and it kind of--it's done a great work. I'm not prepared to analyze what they have done, but that was a very meaningful thing for the effectiveness of the legislature.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, then, what were the circumstances surrounding your becoming campaign 12:00chairman in 1950 after [interruption]--I was going to ask, what were the circumstances surrounding your becoming campaign chairman of the Clements campaign in 1950 after he decided to make the race for the Senate?

SIMS: Well, my recollection is that he never mentioned it to me. The only man that ever actually mentioned it to me and more or less asked me if I would was Dick Maloney in Lexington, and he asked me, he said, "Clements needs a campaign chairman, and I just wondered if I could lean him towards you, would you accept it?" That's about all that I think was said, in substance, and I remember asking him what would be involved, and he 13:00said, "Well, you won't have a whole lot to do." And I said, "Well, I won't know how to do it." "Well," he said, "you won't have to know how. He'll have plenty of help and he just wants somebody that is not controversial and is not involved in any way and isn't going to expect to be succeeded in office." And I just assumed that he suggested me because--Judge [Mac] Swinford was very popular, and it was generally known that I'd been associated with the Swinfords since 1932 or '33. I'd say that had something to do with it--they had a kind of a state-wide reputation of 14:00being the right kind of people, and I'd never been in politics in any way, except--

BIRDWHISTELL: I guess the fact that you hadn't been associated with the Chandler-Clements feud that had been running for years, is that--

SIMS: I'd say that might have been part of it. I didn't belong to any factions, although I really did. (laughs)

BIRDWHISTELL: So you would say you really did belong to the Clements faction, then?

SIMS: Well, yes, I'd say so, I never thought you could depend upon Chandler being a Democrat. I like the fellow, and he and my brother attended the university at the same time, I mean Transylvania College, and just didn't think that he was ever what you call a straight-out Democrat.

BIRDWHISTELL: During the campaign, as campaign chairman, even though, you know, 15:00you said you weren't real actively involved, did you ever have to go to the Chandler forces, maybe Governor Chandler himself, and try and woo them into the Clements camp?

SIMS: No, I never.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now the campaign headquarters was set up in Louisville, is that right? SIMS: That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: How was it set up? How many people did you have there, and who was helping you run the campaign headquarters?

SIMS: Well, I'd have to kind of say that the greatest help I had was Cattie Lou Miller. She was the right arm and always there and knew the answers and knew the people, and she guided me, and if for any reason I couldn't give 'em an immediate answer, why I'd defer it in some way until got the correct answer. I didn't make any momentous decisions. I was just 16:00kind of the how-do-you-do fella, and how's everything in your county, and so forth and so on.

BIRDWHISTELL: The real campaign strategy that developed during the primary campaign and later in the general election, who would you say devised that? Was it from Clements himself or from a number of people?

SIMS: No, I'd say it was pretty much Clements. He just relied on having been a good governor or having convinced people that he'd been a good governor. And as I say, he didn't have very much opposition. We didn't run into any open opposition so far as the primary was concerned, and of course, Judge [Charles I.] Dawson in the fall, he hardly got started good, and I think I 17:00told you over the telephone about the headlines in The Irish American [that was] published there in Louisville at the time and is now closed down.

BIRDWHISTELL: What was that?

SIMS: As I recall, he opened his campaign, [I think, in] Newport at the Public Library down there, and the headline was, "Dawson Opens and Closes Campaign in One Night." And it was almost literally true, except Dawson ran--I'd say the biggest hurt in the campaign was [that] Clements I think, just carried Jefferson County less than a thousand votes. I might be mistaken about that, but it was kind of 18:00a shocker, because he thought he had plenty of bait for Jefferson County, because they would have [had] their first governor since Gus Wilson in 1907, if I know my local history that good. I think Gus Wilson ran as a citizen of Louisville, although he was really a Maysville, Kentucky man. And I would have thought he would have carried Louisville, Jefferson County, a lot better than he did.

BIRDWHISTELL: Why? Because Wetherby would have--

SIMS: Why, yeah, he was giving them a senator, I mean a governor for twelve months, for sure.


BIRDWHISTELL: An almost-sure election.

SIMS: An almost--another four years, which it turned out to be.

BIRDWHISTELL: That's interesting. Going back for just a minute, you mentioned before we started the interview about Ed Farris as a key person in the campaign.

SIMS: Ed Farris was a kind of a key person.

BIRDWHISTELL: And he had been the Governor's administrative assistant--

SIMS: That's right. That's right.

BIRDWHISTELL: What were his main duties in the campaign headquarters that you recall?

SIMS: Oh, he was the male Cattie Lou Miller. He knew the answers and knew the people and knew what Clements would say if he had to answer the question real quick. And that's a poor description of him, but he was very, very helpful.


BIRDWHISTELL: Now, other than Cattie Lou Miller and Ed Farris and yourself, were there any others that you thought played a key role--

SIMS: Well, Herndon Evans was there, I'd say, two or three days a week, and he was the chairman of the publicity committee, in fact he was the committee, so far as I know. He was a fine person, recently passed away, and I was very fond of him. Of course, what he said for the papers was--they used what he said oftener than what I said, because he prepared it and knew how to do it. I'd say he was very, very 21:00helpful.

BIRDWHISTELL: Now, during both the primary campaign and the general election, were there any crises that developed, any real problems that came up?

SIMS: If there was, they didn't come to my attention.

BIRDWHISTELL: I know the papers have noted that the 1950 election was probably one of the dullest in Kentucky's history.

SIMS: Well, it probably was.

BIRDWHISTELL: Is this just because Clements was such a much stronger candidate than--

SIMS: His opponent. And I say that with all kindness to George Glenn Hatcher, but--

BIRDWHISTELL: What were the circumstances surrounding Mr. Hatcher's entrance into the race? He was serving as Secretary of the State at the time.

SIMS: I have no idea. I don't know what made him think he could win or what caused him to want to run. That's an unanswered question.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I was curious, because in reading the old newspaper clippings of the campaign it seems like that Mr. Hatcher started against 22:00insurmountable odds in trying to wage a campaign against the sitting governor at the time. Then there's nothing you can shed that would--

SIMS: No, sir, I never heard of him making a speech. He may have, but it never came to my attention. We never felt his weight or his opposition.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did he represent any particular faction in the Democratic Party?

SIMS: If he did, I don't know what the faction was. I never heard that Chandler rallied to his support or did anything that made the front page news story.

BIRDWHISTELL: And so in terms of the campaign, guess, in the primary election, Clements just tried to project his image and just keep things on an even keel for the most part, I suppose.


SIMS: He had his organization before he started and knew how to use it effectively, would be my short answer to it.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were there any problems in coordinating the campaign across the state? Did some areas of the state feel that they were slighted, or--

SIMS: I never noticed that, I never noticed that, it never did appear as a difficulty at the headquarters. Now, Clements might have had some of those--made those observations himself, but if he did, he corrected it, because he ran a very good race, except that--and I hope I am mistaken, but my disappointment was Jefferson County.


BIRDWHISTELL: You mentioned on the phone a few weeks ago when we were talking about the campaign that the larger cities in Kentucky seemed to work independently of the campaign organization.

SIMS: Well, yes. I remember that Lennie McLaughlin was kind of more or less in the saddle in Louisville at that time, and of course she was in and out of the headquarters, but I got the impression and was possibly told that they wouldn't need any particular help from the state headquarters, and Johnny [John W.] Crimmins, I think he was chairman of the executive committee or some such office that he held. And then of course guess, if it come to a showdown, why, Wetherby, he couldn't have been more interested in Jefferson 25:00County, I wouldn't have thought, because he knew it would make him governor.

BIRDWHISTELL: What about someone like Charles Farnsley in Louisville? He was serving as mayor at the time. Did you find him to be helpful to the Clements campaign?

SIMS: Well, if he did, it wasn't done through me. He may have, and I just don't know.

BIRDWHISTELL: I see. I was wondering about some of the issues during the campaign against Dawson. He had been a judge back during the New Deal legislation.

SIMS: Well, yeah. Had resigned.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did Governor Clements attempt to bring any of this out, the fact that Dawson was opposed to the New Deal legislation back in the thirties?

SIMS: Well, yeah, that was kind of an undercurrent. I don't know that Clements talked about it especially, but Dawson was just an old-time Republican conservative, and Clements was basking in the sun with Roosevelt. 26:00And of course I'd say one thing, though, that probably hurt in Louisville was Truman, of course, [who] was President, and Truman was not as popular while he was in office as he has been since. He's kind of had a recent resurrection in popularity.

BIRDWHISTELL: But in 1950 it was a little different.

SIMS: Yeah, it was very much different, and Dawson just represented the anti-New Deal crowd, and I don't know whether any of his decisions spelled it out when he was federal judge, but of course he was a great lawyer and a very forceful person, and I assume was a good judge. But I think they only got ten 27:00thousand dollars a year for being judge. I kind of think that's right. And of course that'd be small money for him, I would think.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, during the campaign now there is so much emphasis on the feelings of the minority votes in the campaign--

SIMS: That hadn't hardly been born at that time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you and others in the campaign headquarters feel that the vote of the blacks in Kentucky was important in the campaign?

SIMS: Yes, but it wasn't stressed like it would have to be now. I'm confident that they had letters that went out to the so-called black leaders and reminded 'em of what Clements had done for 'em and what the old-time Republican Party had done to 'em, 28:00and I'm sure they were reminded of that, but those letters went out without any assistance from me.

BIRDWHISTELL: I've understood that there's a--in Kentucky campaigns oftentimes literature will be printed up for blacks in Kentucky and be distributed in the black areas the day before the election so it can't get out--

SIMS: If [there was] any of that, I wasn't aware of it. But of course they have special letter writers for every segment, even the ministers. As I recall, I might be mistaken, kinda guessing a little bit, but I think Adron Doran was the chairman of the ministerial committee. Isn't that true?

BIRDWHISTELL: I believe that's true.

SIMS: And then of course the labor, they had their contacts with labor, and bankers--

BIRDWHISTELL: What about education? Apparently Clements as governor had not--


SIMS: I don't think that was (laughs) mentioned too much.

BIRDWHISTELL: I was wondering, because apparently he didn't, as governor, give the teachers everything they had been hoping for. Do you recall any--

SIMS: No, I really don't. I'd be less qualified on that than any other subject.

BIRDWHISTELL: And when after the election the State Republicans filed a protest with the Senate Sub-committee on Elections and stated that the Clements organization spent campaign funds improperly. Do you recall that?

SIMS: No, I really don't actually recall it, but it was customary to file 'em, and it was normal that they would die, and, as I recall, these died.

BIRDWHISTELL: So in your opinion it was nothing out of the ordinary to have some--

SIMS: It wasn't so far as I knew, just had a modest bank account as campaign chairman.

BIRDWHISTELL: Looking at the '50 campaign, what factor do you think 30:00contributed most to Clements' victory, if you had to choose?

SIMS: In '50? Oh, I'd just say it was his general reputation of being a doer and [the fact that he] had made a better than an average governor; I'd say considerably better than an average governor. And Dawson was just a--of course Dawson started back in the days of Gus Wilson. He was elected I think in 1907 during the Tobacco War, and then Dawson had sponsored the few successful Republican candidates, and he was just a died-in-the-wool old-time Republican, and they 31:00just were not too popular. And I'd say he was in his severities at the time.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, after Senator Clements went to the Senate, then, in the early part of 1951, Wetherby had become governor, but many people have said that Senator Clements still kept a pretty firm control over political matters in Kentucky in the Democratic Party and in what was going on in Frankfort in the Wetherby administration. Did you see any indication of this or--

SIMS: No, I just kind of--as I said at the outset, just kind of got in it for fun and after I had 32:00the fun, I came back and tried to make up for some lost time in the office. I never tried to keep up with the Wetherby administration in any particular sense. I liked Wetherby, and I think he was a good governor, and he was kind enough when our circuit judge died in 1951, he offered to make me circuit judge but I turned it down. And incidentally the same thing happened in 1961 when Combs offered me the circuit judgeship and I turned it down, but that's as near as I ever got to a 33:00political office except being county attorney over here in Robertson County, which was my native heath. That's as far as went, and that was as far as I wanted to go. I might say I've been a notary public since 1927. (laughs) Never had any opposition.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you see Senator Clements very often between 1950 and his campaign again in 1956?

SIMS: No, I can't say that I did, don't know that I did, I'd say that I always would normally see him--I've been to quite a few national conventions, and seems like he would kind of pop up sometime during the convention and I'd see him there, 34:00but it wouldn't be any extended conversation.

BIRDWHISTELL: You were at the '52 convention then?

SIMS: I don't know for sure that I was. Where was it?

BIRDWHISTELL: Right off hand, I can't remember. I was just wondering if you were able to observe Senator Clements operating in the convention context.

SIMS: No, I can't say that, I felt like he did good up there because Lyndon Johnson picked him up and made a Senate Whip out of him real quick, and of course Lyndon Johnson was practically--he was the dominating factor in the United States Senate.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course this caused a very quick rise for Senator 35:00Clements in the Senate hierarchy.

SIMS: Yeah, might have been Majority Leader, except for his defeat.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, what role did you play in the 1956 campaign for re-election?

SIMS: Almost none, almost none.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you ever get a chance to talk with Senator Clements during the campaign?

SIMS: I don't actually recall that I did. I was for him, of course.

BIRDWHISTELL: Were you surprised by his defeat--

SIMS: Yes, kind of.

BIRDWHISTELL: What do you think brought about his defeat?

SIMS: Well, Wetherby weakened a little bit in his last two years, and I'd say that whether Clements had any control over Wetherby 36:00or Wetherby's administration or not, a lot of people thought he did, and I'd say he lost some strength through what some people call Wetherby's weakness. But I don't know, it just seemed like Thruston Morton just--he just opened himself on television to the public and just--I think he had some kind of program of just answering questions and stayed there almost all day.


BIRDWHISTELL: Well, you think the media then played a--television played a [role].

SIMS: I think it did. But I don't recall there was any particular issue other than being a Democrat and a Republican, which was always an issue enough for me. I just always felt the Republicans represented property rights and the Democrats were trying to remind 'em that there were such things as personal rights, and people should be considered as well as property.

BIRDWHISTELL: Of course, some people in '56 were saying that it wasn't just Democrat versus Republican because of the factionalism in the Democratic Party itself. Was that apparent--

SIMS: Well, of course Chandler was governor, wasn't he? Elected in '55 and took over in December '55. Well, I'd say he hit him as hard as he could with a brand new administration. And 38:00of course that's forceful, because a governor just as a matter of law in Kentucky is a powerful person.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you see the effects of this here in Cynthiana and Harrison County, the fact that there was a faction opposing Clements in the Democratic Party?

SIMS: Well, yes, I'd say. I don't have any particular recollection of it. I know Clements carried the county very good. But I couldn't tell you how much. I don't know, you just die in politics, you know, your subscription expires and the Herald don't come any longer.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, of course following his defeat, Senator Clements stayed in Washington and worked with the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, and then after Governor Combs was elected governor in '59, he returned to Kentucky as 39:00Highway Commissioner. Were you surprised by him returning to a post such as that here in the state of Kentucky?

SIMS: Well, just a little bit.

BIRDWHISTELL: Did you ever talk with him about it?

SIMS: No, sir, I never did, never had occasion to. I'd say that Clements was a man, though, that liked public service. He loved people and he loved the power of office, the prestige that went with things like that. Of course, going from the United States Senate to Highway Commissioner wouldn't appeal to me, but I think that he thought that it was an opportunity for him to further carry on the things that he had planned to do if he had 40:00had an extension to his term. I think he was a natural public servant. I don't mean he didn't have selfish--he wasn't void of selfishness and self-aggrandizement, but at the same time think he just loved public service and guess was a young man when he first started out in--what was his county?

BIRDWHISTELL: Union County. Well, if you had to put a label on his political philosophy, what would that label be?

SIMS: Oh, I don't know, I'd just say he was a real performer and a real doer.

BIRDWHISTELL: Would you say that he was a liberal or--

SIMS: Well, yes, I'd say he was. Of course, others helped him to be, but liberalism apparently was in a wave at the 41:00time he crested himself, and Roosevelt had done so much for the people, he just almost made worshippers out of old Democrats and Democrats out of a lot of Republicans, you know. That's about all I could say.

BIRDWHISTELL: Are there any anecdotes or stories that you recall about Senator Clements that might help someone later to understand him a little better?

SIMS: No, I can't say that I do. I was really never with the man a whole lot. He was not at the campaign headquarters very much. He was in the Governor's office, and that was a far more powerful seat than any seat that we had 42:00at the Seelback Hotel.

BIRDWHISTELL: The power of the incumbent.

SIMS: Yeah.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, I appreciate your taking your time today to share your recollections of Senator Clements.

SIMS: Well, they're poor recollections, because--my poor recollection reminds me that that was a great asset Clements himself had, he had a memory like an elephant.

BIRDWHISTELL: They say he could remember names very well.

SIMS: Remembered names and remembered little incidents. I had so much help. Wetherby was just a great help. Doc Beauchamp, Henry Carter, Dick [R. P.] Maloney, Lennie McLaughlin, and John Crimmins and John [James] Diskin 43:00at Newport are the ones that just come to my mind, they were--if I was the campaign chairman, they were more than deputies and were kind of the head of things in their area. I don't recall that Dick Maloney was there a whole lot, but his law partner and nephew, maybe cousin instead of a nephew, Don Maloney, he was there all the time. He was the man that set up the speaking arrangements for the visiting speakers, local speakers and so forth. Made all kinds of traveling and communications arrangements for him, airplane connections and so forth. And of course Doc Beauchamp was kind of a 44:00powerhouse himself.

BIRDWHISTELL: Right. For many years.

SIMS: Clements had everything in '50 that he didn't have in '56.

BIRDWHISTELL: In terms of that, what do you think he did different in '56 that was so fatal?

SIMS: I don't--I just--I couldn't' answer that, don't have an answer to that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Some people have said that he was so busy in Washington that he possibly didn't come back and touch the hands of the people in Kentucky.

SIMS: Well, that's probably true, but he was awful busy up there. See, he kind of got in on the ground floor awful quick. Many a man's been there for twelve years and wasn't as far along as he was in six. And of course some have been there longer than that.

BIRDWHISTELL: Well, again, thank you very much, and thank you for 45:00taking the time.

SIMS: That's all right, and I've enjoyed knowing you, and that's as I recall it.


[End of interview.]


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