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WARREN: This is tape 1 of a conversation with Mr. Carl Rowan. May fourteen.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: The other day, Mr. Rowan, I was talking, uh, with Adam Clayton Powell. And he said that the old-line leaders, organization leaders like NAACP, CORE, and the rest are dead. They're finished. Their role is over.

ROWAN: Oh, I don't--

WARREN:--how does that strike you?

ROWAN: I don't think this is true at all. I think this is an overstatement of the sort of which we have too many today. In our kind of society where every man's rights, whether he be white, negro, green or what, are based certainly on some fundamental principles of law. There always will have to be an organization whose role is to look out 1:00for the legal end of man's civil rights. Now let's take for example the white man in this country. He has been for a long time where the negro is trying to go. Even under those circumstances he's had to have an American Civil Liberties Union. He's had to have a great many other organizations designed to protect, uh, those rights guaranteed under our Bill of Rights. And I think that there will be a very important role for the, um, NAACP to play for a long time. Now let's carry it beyond that. Another old-line organization I suppose would be called the Urban League. There is not enough street demonstrations that you can arrange that will take over one of the functions that the NAACP has played over the years and continues to play. And that is to help, uh, many a negro get over this transition of moving from a rural area to a 2:00city, and moving into the industry in a position where he can, uh, more or less work on his own and with some degree of self-assurance. The fact is that just too much has to be done for the negro in this area for anybody to assume that the Urban League has lost its usefulness.

WARREN: Do you, uh, see the point, another point that he, uh, insists on in conversation, that there are two, uh, revolutions or two movements going on simultaneously. The Southern one is primarily middle- and upper-class. A civil rights movement primarily and, and for votes. The other being a mass movement in the North, in the big urban centers in the North. Quite a different order. And, and it's not related to civil rights but related to economic, uh, opportunity. And it's, it's charged by another kind of frustration entirely. Two different kinds of movements; one's a mass movement, the Northern one, and the other 3:00be, uh, a middle-class and upper-class negro movement.

ROWAN: Well, I--

WARREN:--do you see that distinction (??)?

ROWAN: Well, I find it very difficult to make any real distinction between the two movements. I think they both flow out of a very, very deep and growing feeling of resentment about second-class citizenship, however it's manifest. Um, whether or not, uh, it's the indignity of an individual walking into, uh, a registration place in, uh, Mississippi and being given some long ridiculous test and then, uh, denied the right to vote on the grounds that he's not qualified. Or, walking into a real estate office in a, in a suburb of New York or Minnesota and being given the runaround and told he can't buy a house. These are all indignities that flow out of these passions over race, and these stupidities that exist in this field of race. And I find 4:00it very difficult to make any distinction, uh, as between the movement in the South and the movement in the North. And, indeed, I find it difficult to draw any great lines as between the class of negroes who are interested in, uh, the movement in one place or another.

WARREN: That is, you feel that the old, uh, notion that the split between the, uh, masses of negroes and the, uh, middle- upper-class no longer holds, or no longer holds to the same degree?

ROWAN: Oh, I don't want to pretend that there aren't some differences between the mass, and the so-called upper-class of negroes, these differences do exist. There would be a difference in approach, for example. You will probably find more of the so-called lower-class negroes participating in the street demonstrations. Uh, for example, uh, there, there would simply be a lot more negroes in the upper- 5:00classes who, uh, have, uh, less time and less opportunity to be out there. Uh, teachers and doctors and lawyers and government officials have some commitments that don't leave them, uh, all the time that some other categories may have for getting in the streets and protesting.

WARREN: May I interrupt now to see how we're doing on the tape?

ROWAN: Yes, sure.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: Let's cut over to Podhorentz article, uh, of some months ago in Commentary. Did you happen to read that?

ROWAN: No, I did not.

WARREN: Well, his point, his basic point is this: that there's no solution to the problem of race except assimilation.

ROWAN: Well, I certainly would not be, uh, in this country. And I don't think there's any solution except as a large number of American whites are carried along in the conviction that assimilation--

WARREN:--well, he means blood assimilation.

ROWAN: Oh, I, uh.

6:00

WARREN: Not, not cultural assimilation but blood assimilation

ROWAN: Well, this may--if you carry this business of prejudice to its ultimate conclusion, obviously you can reach that conclusion. But I just happen to think that it is possible to create a biracial or a multiracial society in which there is genuine equality of opportunity, and, uh, mutuality of respect. And if you don't believe that, then you've got to believe that this world of ours is heading toward one of the ugliest explosions on this business of race that is, that man has ever known. I just don't believe man is so much an animal, and so, uh, addicted to his ignorance at this stage of civilization that he can't find, uh, some accommodations for, for what looks a little bit different from what he is.

WARREN: How would you state the way the class, economic problem on one side and the race problem on the other intersect in our present 7:00situation? How would you state that relationship?

ROWAN: Well, they do intersect, uh, in a great many ways. Uh, you find, for example, that much of the racial problem in a great many areas has a large degree of, uh, of economic base. That is, the conflict over jobs so you get conflict between, uh, let's say, the, the lower-classes of whites and the lower-classes of negroes on the one hand. You get a degree of disinterest on the part of the negro upper-class as against the negro lower-class, and this can become unfortunate. You get a, you get a degree of snobbery on the part of the white upper-class, uh, which likes to base its disinterest or its, uh, disinclination to move with any boldness on the imperfections it sees within the negro 8:00lower-class. For example, you get a white middle-class or upper-class individual who will look at, uh, a negro living in, under conditions of squalor and come to sometimes the stated conclusion, but more often the unstated conclusion that somehow the other this negro must want to live this way, otherwise why would he be living there. And that, uh, since he is there and apparently wants it; this justifies the system that produced it.

WARREN: In Silberman's new book, uh, The Crisis in Black and White, he makes a good deal of a distinction. The negro, he says, uh, interprets the situation almost purely as race. Almost purely as a matter of race. The white man tends to emphasize the other aspects of it. The negro sees elements, frequently sees elements that are economic, economic or have other social aspects as, uh, merely a matter of race.

ROWAN: Well, I think, now this is one of those overgeneralizations 9:00where, uh, you would have to say which negro.

WARREN: Sure.

ROWAN: I would say that, uh, the majority of negroes would be inclined to see, uh, uh, let's say discrimination in employment mostly as a matter of race. Whereas certainly anyone who has served in government, for example--in the kind of jobs I've had the last three years--begins to talk about what we call "the circle of gossip." We see that the good jobs are passed out because of their "circle of gossip." A man in an important position goes to a cocktail party with other men in important positions and he mentions, 'I need so-and-so to fill a really important job.' And maybe at that cocktail party somebody mentions to him, somebody who can fill that job. Well, if there's nobody at that cocktail party who knows any negroes or who knows any well enough to feel that he can recommend them for that job, the negro doesn't have 10:00a ghost of a chance of getting that job. Now, this is a social factor that's involved in discrimination. And one of the things I've pointed out is that negroes have to break through this "circle of gossip" and get some people inside the circle who know some negroes and who have become accustomed to recognizing negroes for good jobs. And until this happens, the negro is going to be discriminated against in employment for a considerable amount of time. Now there may be other social factors, many other economic factors that go into this thing. Um, and they lead to, uh, what you can call discrimination by individuals who don't have the remotest thought that they're discriminating in any racial way.

WARREN: (pause) Related to that, there is a notion we encounter sometimes, that the successful negro--any--form of success--tends to 11:00be the form is under suspicion from the unsuccessful negro, from the masses, from the lower-classes. They feel immediately there's been some possibility of a sellout, a loss of continuity. Now much is made of this by a good many, uh, negro writers and a good many white sociologists, too. But the, the suspicion is there. It's, uh--do you, do you feel this?

ROWAN: Oh, there's no doubt about it. The suspicion exists beyond any doubt. Now, let me say that there's, there's nothing unique about this in so far as negroes are concerned. I was talking with my colleague--my predecessor Ed Murrow yesterday and I talked to my other colleagues who were former newspaper men. We find, for example, that when a newspaper man moves into government, there is an absolute rising of suspicion among newspapermen that somehow or the other there must have been some degree of sellout. Some degree of compromise of 12:00principle involved here. The same thing exists in the negro community. Now, one of the problems in the negro community is that, uh, the demagogues--and it should be clear that there are demagogues who are interested in self-glorification among negroes, too--they, uh, tend to use this argument against anybody who happens to disagree with them or their particular tactic. It's common, for example, on the part of the demagogues that if a negro says, uh, a negro leader or, or somebody in a position of prominence says, 'This is wrong. It should not be done this way.' The quickest way to shut him up is to call him an "Uncle Tom." And, uh, it's a rather contemptible tactic, but fortunately, uh, we've got more negroes of success who feel themselves in positions that are secure enough that they don't feel they have to run with the 13:00demagogues, and I think when we have more of them, uh, we'll find that the negro as a whole is better off.

WARREN: That is, you think that, uh--if I read you right, hear you right--that people are in peripheral, uh, situations outside of, of formal leadership. That they do a great service to change the image, image of the negro in the public mind. Is that the idea? Just the fact that their, their image of men of power and competence and, and success is a value in itself?

ROWAN: Oh, absolutely. Now, as I pointed out, uh, I forget, uh, with whom I was talking in Finland--oh, I guess it was, uh, a TIME magazine reporter--I pointed out to him that every negro in a position of responsibility who does his job well, or especially one who does his job excellently is aiding immeasurably in the civil rights struggle because he is carrying along with him a, a segment of public opinion 14:00in this country, of white public opinion. Now, one of the things that distresses me about some of these, uh, people who style themselves as the new militants who are replacing the NAACP, or the Urban League, and so forth, is that they would have you believe that somehow or the other, by their militancy alone, they can force a solution to this business. Well, it just isn't feasible in a society where the negro represents a 10 percent minority.

WARREN: That is, you assume that a solution can only come by some cooperation, uh, with, uh, a white society and not by, uh, mere militancy, isolated from other elements--

ROWAN:--that's right. Well, for example, I, I think you have to have many approaches. First of all, you've got to work on the white man's conscience. And that's what, uh, Urban Leagues and NAACPs were doing 15:00all these years when they tried to arouse the conscience of the church people of the nation. You've got to work on the, uh, white man's concern about his economic posture and you've got--that is, you make him understand how much it's taking out of his pocketbook to pursue these policies of discrimination. You've got to work on the American concerned about this country's position in the world, and that's why there's been all this talk about the role of race in international affairs. And, uh, you've got to work on the public opinion media in this country, and, uh, move them over to a position of greater concern and greater militancy. All this has to go along with the street demonstrations or the street demonstrations produce nothing but rancor and violence and bloodshed and bitterness. But not very much in the way of progress that's beneficial either to the negro or the white 16:00American (??).

WARREN: You get people like Lauren Miller saying that the, the liberal is over. "Goodbye white liberal," you see, in quotes. Or James Baldwin, uh, saying that the white liberal is an affliction. And we cannot be endured longer. And, uh, Adam Clayton Powell saying there's no place for him except to take orders. That whole, that whole line is very, very strongly marked now, among, uh, quite different types of negroes, not just one type.

ROWAN: Well, they would be one type, uh, generally in the sense that, uh, they are afflicted with a great deal more frustration and a great deal more bitterness in some cases than, uh, would be so among, uh, another group that would certainly call itself negro leadership.

WARREN: Is this element in it true: that, uh, the negro movement or 17:00negro revolution or whatever we choose to call it, uh, is the first time that there has been massive, uh, self-determination among negroes? It's necessary then for the negroes to control their own, their own, uh, "movement," whatever this is, you see.

ROWAN: Yes, well, now let me, now let me say, uh, that in saying what I've just said I don't want to indicate that, uh, I believe it's wrong to say that the negro should speak for himself. Uh, because I do. I don't particularly relish the fact, for example, that in our Senate today, trying to decide what will be the rights of twenty million American negroes, a hundred white men are, are making all the decisions. I don't think that's good for the negro and I don't think it's good for this country. I do believe, for example, that, uh, recent militancy has caused the negro to have a new realization of, of 18:00the possibility of making decisions that decide your own fate. But I don't think that's the most important thing about the militancy at all. And in saying that I want to make it clear that I have supported the sit-ins and the various other demonstrations. I think the important thing is that they serve to raise to the surface what has been a latent sense of decency on the part of this white 90 percent majority in the United States. I think that, uh, the, the peaceful demonstrations, which were completely in keeping with the First Amendment to the Constitution, did serve to, uh, create a broader white understanding of the need for this nation to move and to move urgently to, uh, give the negro some redress of the, of the just grievances that he's had for all these years. But, uh, I think all this talk about, um, negroes 19:00wiping white people out of the picture is a great deal of, of sound and fury that some people are using to impress themselves as to their own importance. And it doesn't really have a great deal of bearing on what's going to happen in this country.

WARREN: What about the argument that the negro has had a very defective conception of, of himself, you know? He didn't have basically a strong ego. That he'd been maimed by his experience on this continent. And that now for the first time he has a vision of himself which is different.

ROWAN: Well, I must say that there's plenty of validity to that point because, um, the whole system for lo these many years has been to crush the negro's pride, to crush his self-respect, and make him believe that 20:00he was an inferior, to make him believe that, uh, this was the only lot in American life to which he was entitled. And, um, moving away from that kind of brainwashing is a tremendously difficult process. But, the thing is that some people would have you believe that, that this so-called angry speech that, uh, somebody might give or an angry article that somebody might write, or that violence in the street has pulled the negro's ego and self-respect back up to where it ought to be, and I would maintain that this is an exercise in self-deception. That this may begin to move the negro in the other direction but that nothing is going to move that ego and that self-respect up to where it ought to be until the negro gets all the other things that make it possible for him to, uh, live with self-assurance that he can compete 21:00with the, with the American white man. And that he can live beside him, uh, and make the best of whatever equality of opportunity that exists. Now, in this sense I am saying that a negro youngster out on that street participating in a demonstration, who is not doing anything in his school work, and who knows it, who is gaining nothing in the way of a cultural background, and who knows it, is going to go home that night and know that he is still just as much an outcast of American society as he was before he went out on that street and expressed his anger and his fire and his, his unhappiness over the situation. So, the point I try to make in my speeches--and heaven knows when people are talking militancy and even some are talking violence, that you aren't necessarily the most popular man in the world when you say, 22:00'All right, go on out and participate in that sit-in, but when you get through, go home and do your homework. Because you can ram open the door to the table where the white man is feasting, but if you go in and sit down at that table and you are uncertain as to which fork to pick up, you're still going to feel like the man who's on the outside.'

WARREN: There is a very violent reaction against, uh, Dr. King's, uh, position, of course. Let me read you a passage--from--Dr. Kenneth Clark on this. You probably know the passage.

ROWAN: Yes. Well, I know, I know Dr. Clark quite well.

WARREN: "On the surface, King's philosophy appears to reflect health and stability, while black nationalism betrays pathology and instability. A deeper analysis, however, might reveal that there is 23:00also an unrealistic, if not pathological, basis in King's doctrine. The natural reactions to injustice and oppression are bitterness and resentment. The form which such bitterness takes need not be overtly violent but the corrosion of the spirit is inevitable. It would seem, therefore, that any demand that victims of oppression be required to love those who oppress them places an additional and intolerable burden upon these victims." That's a lot to hear at one time, I know.

ROWAN: Yes, well, let me, let me say this. I would be inclined to agree with what Kenneth Clark says. Uh, I think that to ask, uh, the victims of oppression to love their oppressors may, uh, have some merit only 24:00from a propaganda point of view. From the point of view of affecting American public opinion. But I think that in terms of the reaction of the American negro that it's, it's really wishful thinking to assume that for any, that in any really meaningful sense the negro is going to love his oppressor. I don't know of any group of people in human history who ever, uh, really loved their oppressors, and I don't think the negro is such a superhuman that he's going to be able to do it either.

WARREN: Well, Dr. King and others who have seen him in operation, say, in Birmingham and a few other places, bear witness to a real change of temper, in certain moments of crisis, under his.

ROWAN: Well, now let me say this, because of one man's personality 25:00or because of one man's ability as an orator to appeal to the people he's leading, he may indeed be able to prevent them from resorting to violence under the greatest of provocation. At a given time. But this does not mean that he has induced those people, uh, to love their oppressors. They may be filled. Their hearts may be filled with bitterness and the utmost of contempt, but at the same time under the spell of leadership of this particular man, they may simply have been induced not to let this, uh, contempt manifest itself in overt physical aggression.

WARREN: That as (??) you see the nonviolence primarily as tactical then, is that right? And, and precautionary?

ROWAN: Well--I think that its, its validity would be more tactical than, than real, in any, uh, spiritual sense of the word.

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WARREN: Taking the whole, uh, negro movement now, it's called a revolution. Is that word properly applied? Revolution, properly applied? Or in what sense can we say it's a revolution?

ROWAN: Well, I think it is a revolution in that it is a rapid and dramatic change in the, uh, negro's outlook on the means, uh, he wants to apply in moving toward the status of a first-class human being. But actually what the American negro is doing today, is--as I see it--a part of a much broader thing that's happening in the world today. I regard it as part of a whole worldwide movement against colonialism and against racism. I think, uh, I think these things play on each other, and that what's happening in Asia and Africa the last few years has had 27:00a very definite effect on, uh, on what negro masses are doing in this particular country.

WARREN: Would you relate that in itself, though, to something even broader, a conception of the individual which was not, uh, functional in the world before, oh, uh, the last hundred and fifty years?

ROWAN: Oh, yes, very definitely. And I would say, um, I would relate it also to some of the lessons man has learned, uh, in the 1930's, particularly during World War II, and, u, some lessons he's been more willing to face as a result of the threat of atomic extinction.

WARREN: In all revolutionary situations of history tells us about, there is a drive for centralization of leadership. Various leaders have knocked off along the way. You move toward the central leadership. 28:00Usually toward one man. Have you seen any tendency of that sort in the negro movement the last, say, seven or eight years?

ROWAN: Oh, I've seen signs of one man increasing, uh, his prestige and his role as a leader, yes, but I don't think that in terms of the negro civil rights movement we have moved anywhere close to, uh, a position where you could say there's a single leader. And I don't think there will be in the foreseeable future.

WARREN: There clearly isn't one now. It's a question of what the tendency is.

ROWAN: Oh, I don't, I don't see any real, uh, tendency in this direction.

WARREN: There's always the process of overreaching in promises and overreaching in appeals, uh, in any situation like this. And how much of this overreaching process in the bid for power or the bid to, uh, to define policy, you observe (??)?

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ROWAN: Well, I would say that there's a very definite element of overreaching on the part of some of the leaders of the, the really more militant groups of negroes, particularly young groups. Uh, when a leader, and, and particularly some who ought to know better, would lead, uh, these groups to believe that by militancy alone they're going to, uh, reach the negro's goals, then I call this overreaching, and overreaching in a, in a very sad way because it can only lead to further frustration and bitterness on the part of, of people who already have a great deal.

WARREN: Do you see, given the general idea of nonviolent demonstration, given that in general, but under that head, a distinction between illegitimate and legitimate demonstration?

ROWAN: Oh, I do, indeed.

WARREN: How would you approach that question (??)?

ROWAN: Well, now, let me, uh, I probably ought to read for you a section 30:00of a speech I gave before the American Civil Liberties Union just last week.

WARREN: Do you have a copy of it?

ROWAN: Yes, I do, and I'll be happy to, uh, to give it to you (??)--

WARREN:--well, if I can get that, then, we won't take the time to read it now on the tape.

ROWAN: Right, right, good.

WARREN: We'll just put that on the record; I'll go at it.

ROWAN: Right.

WARREN: Would you have classified, given your, given your distinction--

ROWAN:--that's all right. Go right ahead. This is Mr. Savage, my director--

WARREN:--oh, yes, you called my house this morning. How do you do?

ROWAN: And a copy, and a copy of my speech before the American Civil Liberties Union.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: End of tape 1 of a conversation with Mr. Rowan. Proceed to tape 2.

[Tape 1 ends; tape 2 begins.]

WARREN: This is tape 2 of a conversation with Mr. Carl Rowan, continue.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: You know the, the notion first put forth, I guess, uh, by 31:00DuBois--appearing in many forms since--of the split in the psyche of the American negro. On one hand the pull toward the, uh, African tradition, or toward even the American negro tradition, towards some mystique of blood and culture; on the other hand, the pull toward identification with the Judaic-Christian tradition, the Western European tradition. First, do you feel this, any, any such, such division of impulse?

ROWAN: Yes, I see many manifestations of this, uh, uh, dichotomy really in the negro's thinking, and--

WARREN:--do you feel it yourself?

ROWAN: Oh, I don't think I particularly feel it myself because I made the intellectual conviction a long time ago that, uh, uh, as an 32:00American and as one who believes color to be of incidental importance, I'm going to put my stake on, on first-class citizenship in this country as an American and enjoying all the rights that pertain to Americans. But I have, uh, had many acquaintances, for example, well, I've run into, uh, a negro who would say, um, I want--who would, for example, complain about racial discrimination and then turn around and criticize another negro for moving into a white neighborhood on the grounds that that negro was showing a lack of pride in his own race to move among white people. Now, this is, this is the, uh, psyche split that I see, uh, manifested in a, on a very practical matter.

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WARREN: Some negroes I know say that they feel a real sense of loss or, or vague anxiety if they think of the total absorption of, say, negro blood into an American race. The disappearance of negro identity, blood identity. Do you feel anything, anything about that one way or the other?

ROWAN: No, I've never had any moments of anxiety over that particular, um, probability.

WARREN: For some people it's real.

ROWAN: Yes, I'm sure it must be, just as for, uh, a great many whites, this is the all consuming fear. And I find a lot more things to worry about and I haven't gotten around to spending any time worrying about that one.

WARREN: Let me approach the question of, uh, the notions of cultural identity and, uh, therefore personal identity, uh, through the Southern, 34:00uh, white situation. Is this tenable as a, as a proposition, that the Southern white man feels, uh, that to be himself, to have identity, he must, uh, buy a whole tradition. He, uh, that he would call "Southern." One of the things in that is a certain, uh, attitude toward race. That even a man who does not feel individually or personally the racial, uh, necessity, the impulse for racial discrimination, feels somehow he must participate to maintain his cultural identity. That once he could see that this is not necessary for his cultural identity, he would be, uh, freed of the whole thing. Does that make any sense?

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ROWAN: Well, I think that's tenable as a proposition but I think there's a lot more to this business of--feeling the part of a white Southerner.

WARREN: Let's have the rest of it then.

ROWAN: Well, for example, let's, uh, talk about how people respond to feelings of persecution. I would say that, uh, that millions of American whites feel that they and the South have been persecuted. Now, some will carry it all the way back to days before the Civil War, to what happened in the Civil War, to what was done in the Reconstruction period, et cetera, et cetera. Others will bring it right down to today where they will swear that, uh, magazine X, for example, is always writing about, uh, the faults of the South and never about the faults of the North, or that the press of this nation is trying, has long tried to say that racial discrimination was a Southern problem and not 36:00a Northern problem. Well, the, the fact is that, uh, this feeling of, of regional persecution tends to make a man, uh, defensive and to feel more Southern than he may really feel on racial terms alone.

WARREN: So far that's about the same thing I was bunglingly trying to say.

ROWAN: Yes, yes. So--that I think, think is a real factor.

WARREN: It's a very unfortunate factor--

ROWAN:--yes, uh--

WARREN:--to stake your identity on that isn't it?

ROWAN: It is indeed. Now you get the other factor, of course, of having, say, just reading casually from time to time statistics showing, for example, that the number of white Southerners rejected in the draft is considerably higher than the number of white Northerners rejected in the draft. You get the economic, cultural, 37:00other indicators of a lower level of society in, in the South than in the North. Now, people who read this are naturally inclined to look for things to bolster their prestige. And, uh, therefore, a man in New Orleans, for example, may get a--a subtle or a subconscious, um, boost to his ego by, uh, going to a hotel where he knows Ralph Bunch can't stay the night, or where he knows the highest negro, negroes in government couldn't get a hotel room.

WARREN: Now we have a parallel then between the white Southerner situation, uh, vis-a-vis the North, and the negro situation vis-a-vis the white man, don't we?

ROWAN: Yes, that's right.

WARREN: That is, the white Southerner feels defensive. He has objective standards, uh, lower literacy rates, lower this, and lower that--

ROWAN:--that's right.

38:00

WARREN: And in the same way the negro has vis-a-vis, the, the white society

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: So we have a, uh, very strange parallel here, don't we, a psychological parallel and cultural parallel?

ROWAN: And you will, uh, see it reflected to a degree in the fact that a, that a great many negroes will react almost automatically with suspicion to a white man with a Southern drawl.

WARREN: They do indeed, I can tell you.

ROWAN: Yes, yes. (laughs) And, uh, it's only, uh, after a considerable amount of experience and a considerable, the attaining of a considerable degree of, of intellectual sophistication that a negro is really honestly able to say that he doesn't judge white men by where they come from.

WARREN: Or white men by the color of their skin.

ROWAN: Yes, yes--

WARREN:--to carry it further along--

ROWAN:--that's, that's true, yes.

WARREN: In other words, you would say with this paranoia that is shared 39:00by both the Southern white man and the, uh, American negro.

ROWAN: There--being one significant difference that I think we ought to, ought to recognize: that, uh, in the case of the negro it is not always paranoia, it is not as nearly as often a paranoia or a, or a false feeling of being persecuted as it is in the case of the white Southerner. Any negro alive can, uh, recall from recent memory enough real incidents of persecution and discrimination to give him his feelings, whereas in the case of the white Southerner, these feelings may be no more than an attitude passed on by another generation.

WARREN: Right. I'm talking about the way it works psychologically--

ROWAN:--oh yes--

WARREN:--and not the relevance, the relevance in, uh, terms of 40:00background.

ROWAN: That's right, that's right.

WARREN: The problem in different degrees where it's, it's a real problem for both, uh, of these groups.

ROWAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this, of course, is a big factor in this, this revolution that we're talking about. The, uh, some negroes would have you believe--and this could be particularly true of the demagogue who likes to throw around the word "Uncle Tom"--he would want to have you believe that the difference in attitude is, uh, the extent to which, uh, one negro has been bought out by a white man and the other one has not. But, actually, what one man does as against what another negro does may indeed be merely a measurement of the degree to which he's afflicted by this thing we described as paranoia.

WARREN: You see also in, um, occasionally the same contempt the modern 41:00city man has for the modern, uh, rural citizen reflected among negroes. Northern negroes against Southern negroes.

ROWAN: Yes.

WARREN: I've seen that myself occasionally even with, say, Northern negroes who came to Mississippi to work in civil rights.

ROWAN: Well, yes--

WARREN:--occasionally.

ROWAN: Oh, yes, you see these--are the things that help to confirm your belief that people everywhere are, are fundamentally the same whatever their race because you can see these, uh, bits of snobbery operating among negroes, too, and you know then that, uh, they're capable of just about the same degree of decency and the same degree of indecency as are white citizens.

WARREN: James Baldwin says in his last book that the Southern mob does not represent the will of the Southern majority. What, if any, sense 42:00does that make to you?

ROWAN: Oh, I think this is true. I think, uh, I think from my own observations in the South as a journalist and otherwise.

WARREN: And you were born there, too.

ROWAN: Yes, I lived there the first eighteen years of my life.

WARREN: Tennessee, wasn't it?

ROWAN: That's right. That the vast majority of Southern white people would like nothing better than to get out from under this burden of supposedly being a different breed of Americans. There is, uh, whether we will it so or not, a certain kind of stigma attached to being a white Southerner, just as there is a stigma attached to being a negro. And, uh.

WARREN: The moral is, don't lose a war.

ROWAN: Well, yes, that's, that's right. But I think a lot of Southerners, for example--deep inside themselves they're bothered 43:00by, uh, a statement, for example, that, that the practice of racial discrimination is hurting this country abroad. That's hurting the United States in its struggle with the communist world. Now, they'd like to find some cheap easy way to got away from a situation where somebody is saying that what they are doing is, is damaging the United States and damaging the cause of democracy. Therefore, they do not, uh, like what the mobs do. They do not want to be a part of some of the more brutal denials of civil rights, uh, in, in these recent years. But the truth of it is, uh, they also happen to live in times when, uh, men are more inclined to, uh, hate trouble more than they hate injustice. And, therefore, they, they find, uh, silence the better 44:00part of wisdom.

WARREN: Some people who actually engaged at the peril of their lives in--the movement in Mississippi and in other parts of the South have told me, including Charles Evers, that they were optimistic about a reasonable settlement in the South before very long. Before--you would get it elsewhere. Mr. Evers says that, uh, the Mississippi segregationist is raised respect (??), courage at least, raw courage. He sees the negro showing it. He's, he's not going to like it but he's convinced of something (??). That this man crosses a line and he can be trusted then in a certain way. Uh, is he dreaming?

ROWAN: Well, I think he may be dreaming about the extent to which this respect for courage is going to operate, but I don't think he's dreaming in terms of the fact that a, that a reasonable settlement 45:00is coming. I don't think there's, uh, even a half-educated person in Mississippi who doesn't know that this thing is coming because it's got to come. And I think every one of them knows that it's going to come a lot sooner than he wants it. And, um, I think with the right kind of political leadership and with the right kind of leadership from the press, uh, it would have been accepted a lot, a long time ago.

WARREN: Do you mean the local Southern press or the outside press?

ROWAN: Well, the local Southern press, uh, primarily. I, I note that, uh--

WARREN:--there's none (??) in Mississippi.

ROWAN: Well, I know, there is--

WARREN:--the Free Press of Jackson; it's a negro paper--

ROWAN:--yes, I know--

WARREN:--the Tuscaloosa (??) paper, the Tuscaloosa (??) paper stood out against it.

ROWAN: Oh, is that. Well, you see, I look at this whole picture of what's happened in the South, and I note that the greatest degree of accommodation and the greatest transition on a peaceful basis has come 46:00about in those communities where there is a reasonably responsible press and a reasonably responsible political leadership. But where you've got poor political leadership and, uh, a press that moves with the passions of the area, of the times, you get trouble. It's as simple as that.

WARREN: It's a simple matter of courage then for the people who should be leaders, isn't it? To take, responsibility of leadership.

ROWAN: Oh, absolutely.

WARREN: It boils down to that, doesn't it?

ROWAN: This is crucial to, this is crucial to the future of this country.

WARREN: What's happened to leadership in parts of the South?

ROWAN: Well, I go back--

WARREN:--there is none in Mississippi, except Silvers, Silver, James Silver

ROWAN: Yes, that's right. But let's, let's go beyond that to the, to the power structure, you see. You talk about your power companies, your, your gas companies, your, your big merchants, your big manufacturers. A lot of them with some, some Northern control, for 47:00example. These are the people who have abdicated responsibility. These are the people who are, are sending this nation down the road to far more costly conflict than, than any of us may comprehend today, uh, simply because they refuse to use the, the great powers that they have.

WARREN: You mean, like the steel industry in Birmingham.

ROWAN: That's right, absolutely. And--with a nod from this part of the power structure you'd get a lot more press responsibility in the first place. And you'd get a lot of more political responsibility in the second place. [buzzer sounds]

WARREN: You answer that (??)

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: Talking about the South, do you remember, uh, Myrdal's--

ROWAN:--yes--

WARREN: Talking about the South, do you remember, Myrdal's, uh, scheme, 48:00what would have been, he thinks, a reasonable reconstruction. First, the compensation of the slaveholder for the emancipation; uh, second, expropriation of land for freedmen but with compensation; then not, the giving of land to the freedmen but a long term sale, you see. A small price, a price, but, you know (??).

ROWAN: Um-hm, um-hm.

WARREN: And various other things, including some shifting of population. Uh, do you find resistance to any of those stipulations that he lays down?

ROWAN: Well, let me say first of all that I'm really the furthest thing from an expert on the Reconstruction, uh, period. Uh, my knowledge of what actually took place during Reconstruction is considerably limited. But in terms of the, uh, these particular things you've spelled out, I don't see any fundamental objection to them.

WARREN: You know, many people would simply explode at the thought--both, 49:00uh, Northerners and negroes.

ROWAN: Of, of what?

WARREN: The notion of compensating the slaveholders after the Civil War for, for the emancipated, uh, slaves. And the notion of, of compensating for the expropriation of land. This is compounding a felony. It becomes a moral affront, you see.

ROWAN: Well, uh, that's why I say you have to; you have to dig into a lot of specific circumstances, uh, that pertain to that particular time to decide, uh, whether or not some small measurement of, of morality may lie on the side of, of compensation.

WARREN: The point I'm getting at is really a theoretical question through this. Is, uh, abstract moral issue as opposed to the fact that moral issues may be imbedded in the economic and other issues--

ROWAN:--yes, well--

WARREN:--so deeply that they have to be treated, uh, less than abstract.

50:00

ROWAN: Yes, well, on the strictly abstract moral terms, yes, I would, uh, object to that. I would, I would not say, uh, that you ought to, uh, reward a man for ceasing to do what's immoral. And I do believe slavery was and is immoral. And I would see no, uh, no reason to compensate a man for ceasing immoral actions. Now, uh, the question, there may however be a question of whether or not the rest of society, uh, played a role in--leading that man or sustaining that man in an immoral operation. And, uh, to some extent encouraged him to invest in that immoral operation. And then, of course, to cut that immoral operation off may leave you with some obligation. Now I'm not saying this pertains. All I'm saying is that these abstract moral issues are 51:00generally not very abstract, and.

WARREN: There's also the possibility, a possibility at least, that if this had been done you might have avoided the serious consequences we've had in the South in the Reconstruction and after.

ROWAN: That's possible but--

WARREN:-- it's a guess (??)--

ROWAN:--I would doubt very much, however, that these changes that, that Myrdal spoke of or that this kind of settlement would have changed very much the fundamental problem that exists here. And that is the fundamental problem of people, uh, having a need to feel superior to somebody, having a clearly distinguishable minority group to pick as the inferior group to use as the scapegoat for what-ever disabilities, and, and inadequacies the area of the South might have continued to 52:00have. I just doubt that any kind of arrangement would have wiped out this rather deeply imbedded notion that, uh, the white man was meant to rule and the negro was meant to be the slave.

WARREN: What do you think of Lincoln?

ROWAN: Well, I must say that I think Lincoln was a, was a great President. And that, uh, his attitudes were way ahead of his time.

WARREN: The fact that he, uh, held certain strong racist views doesn't, uh, make you modify that?

ROWAN: Well, I've read some statements that would tend to be considered racist views on the part of Lincoln. But I read, for example, I quoted Lincoln in a speech last week--and it's in this copy of the speech that I gave you. This is a statement that shows a brilliant understanding of this business of human freedom, and the foundation on which liberty 53:00is based. And it's the furthest thing from a racist statement. And I--I much prefer to think that, that this statement was the voice of the true Lincoln and not some of the things I've heard quoted that have racist (??).

WARREN: After the Emancipation he was waited on by a committee of free (??) negroes from Washington and environs, and said, 'I must tell you, you can never hope to enjoy equality with the white man.'

ROWAN: Yes, yes.

WARREN: What about Thomas Jefferson and the question of race and slavery? How does that strike you? Do you feel any ironies at this, that fact?

ROWAN: Well, now, let me say that even the most enlightened man tends to be, uh, to some degree, a slave of the circumstances that pertain. And 54:00if you go back a hundred years, I would think that even as enlightened a man as a Lincoln, or back further, even as enlightened a man as a Jefferson might have found it difficult to conceive of the day when the negro could move far enough away from the chains of bondage that pertained then. To really walk at the level of the American white man.

WARREN: That is, you want to modify or at least, uh, put against the notion of abstract moral definition, historical relativism and the question of context?

ROWAN: That's exactly right. I think that in abstract terms, uh, Lincoln was not, was not a racist. That in terms of his own personal ideology, his own personal philosophy, the same thing with Jefferson. He was a Democrat. But in terms of historical relevance and in terms 55:00of the situation that existed in his time, many statements were made about what seemed to be possible that would look a little foolish today in terms of what has happened.

WARREN: Well, that was the point I was getting at.

ROWAN: Yes, that's exactly right.

WARREN: Of course that, your view is not universally held.

ROWAN: Oh, I know. (Warren laughs) There are some people, of course, who find it convenient to hold to the view that Lincoln and Jefferson were racists because this puts them in distinguished company, you see.

WARREN: It's also held by certain negroes because another, another strike against the white man.

ROWAN: Yes, well, I--

WARREN:--this can be used both ways.

ROWAN: Yes, that's, that's true.

WARREN: It can be used both ways. You find the White Citizens Council quoting Jefferson, I mean, pointing to Jefferson and Lincoln, and you find, uh, certain negroes pointing to them with a finger of scorn.

56:00

ROWAN: Yes.

WARREN: You see, it can be used either way.

ROWAN: Yes, and I find myself fortunate not to be in either of those groups.

WARREN: (laughs) One more thing on this tape. Let me read a quotation about negro history. "The whole tendency of the negro history movement, not as history but as propaganda, is to encourage the average negro to escape the realities. The actual achievements and the actual failures of the present. Although the movement consciously tends to breed race pride, it may also cause negroes unconsciously to recognize that group pride is built partly on delusion and therefore may result in devaluation of themselves for being forced to resort to such self- deception." That's by Arnold Rose, Myrdal's collaborator.

57:00

ROWAN: Yes, I know Arnold Rose personally.

WARREN: From Minnesota?

ROWAN: Yes, that's right. Well, I--(laughs)--let me say that, of course, there is a conscious effort an the part of those who deal in negro history to use it as a means of bolstering, uh, group pride. I think, uh, there is some validity to this approach. Simply from the practical point of view that so many negroes have no knowledge of negro history. No experience that they've had in our public schools was designed to teach them much about their past history. But I would say, that, uh, group pride is not necessarily based on--self-deception. I would say that pride--and, and I would encourage the negro, uh, to 58:00work on individual pride, rather than, rather than race pride, myself, let me say this. But that it's really based more on the achievements and the status of today than it is on what somebody supposedly did at Bunker Hill.

WARREN: I must say that I have seen so many of the bad effects of the use of history in the South that I am suspicious of all such uses of history.

ROWAN: Well. (laughs) Well, I am simply suspicious of any efforts to, uh, create deep feelings that are based simply on the fact that you are of this racial group, or you are of this social group, or you are of this religious group, or you are of this cultural group. Because they all lead to a narrowness of the mind and a narrowness of the heart that 59:00it seems to me has never brought human beings anything but grief in the long run.

WARREN: You're just fearful of the chauvinism that's involved there.

ROWAN: That's, that's exactly right.

WARREN: Let me take you off the hook. This is the end of tape 2 of the conversation with Carl Rowan. Proceed on tape 3.

[Tape 2 ends; tape 3 begins.]

WARREN: This is tape 3 of the conversation with Carl Rowan, proceed.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: Let me cut back to another topic that we almost approached yesterday. The question of white and black symbolisms in, uh, Western culture. Some negroes, uh, see society as impregnated with such symbolisms. I have a friend in Nashville who says he's trains himself 60:00to reverse these symbolisms.

ROWAN: What, what do they mention these symbolisms, for example?

WARREN: Values, uh, good equals white. Bright light equals truth. Darkness equals ignorance, this texture of light and dark symbolism--

ROWAN:--white, white is pure.

WARREN: White is pure.

ROWAN: Yes.

WARREN: Black is impure. Good and evil.

ROWAN: Right.

WARREN: The question how this is, uh, is a subtle assault, on through these symbols on the integrity of the negro. How serious do you think this is a problem?

ROWAN: Well, uh, certainly, now in my very first book, as I recall, I wrote a section on this, this very subject. And it's true that, uh, this is indeed a factor. Not only is it a factor in the white mind, 61:00but it becomes a factor in the mind of the ordinary negro including the negro child. And, uh, it is an extremely subtle transition into this whole question of, of group behavior and attitudes in one group toward another group. But it's a factor nevertheless. But I doubt very much that, uh, any campaign is going to reverse those symbols.

WARREN: Now here's a point that is curious. Some of these symbolisms antedate the contact between the races.

ROWAN: Um-hm.

WARREN: That is, in Africa itself, some anthropologists have pointed out that the light/dark, white/black symbolisms are used there.

ROWAN: Yes, that's true.

WARREN: In dances of good and evil, say, ritual dances, uh, good will be 62:00attired in white feathers and white, uh, marks, uh, the evil character, the symbol of evil, will have, uh, black feathers and black robes. Or, this is true in many other, many other (??), in Asia too, where you have the white and black and light and dark (??) as a natural symbolism without reference to race, where there's no racial contact with the white race.

ROWAN: Oh, I'm sure that this, uh, flows out of something that has nothing whatsoever to do with race. For example, I would suspect that, uh, you could carry it back to the time when man feared the dark, for example, and he, uh, much preferred daylight.

WARREN: Um, the wolves weren't out in the daylight.

ROWAN: That's exactly right. So, I don't think that, that these symbols in themselves flow out of any racial feeling.

WARREN: Though some negroes do claim that they have been exploited 63:00deliberately by the white man.

ROWAN: Oh, I don't think this is any great problem in that sense. Long after all our racial problems were solved, I expect that brides would still be wearing white as a symbol of their pristine pureness. And men would still prefer--uh, or some of them, that is--the daylight to the darkness.

WARREN: Here you have then an intersection of natural symbolism with a social symbolism. In other words, it's an (??) symbolism

ROWAN: Yes, that's right.

WARREN: (??)

ROWAN: The symbolisms will be there, no matter what.

WARREN: (pause) How much is the, uh, question of race used as an alibi 64:00by negroes?

ROWAN: Well, that's--

WARREN:--for ordinary failures that can be, that should be accounted for on other grounds?

ROWAN: Well, that's hard to say. Um, it, it was used I should think a lot more in times past than is the case today. But I would say that in many instances when it's used today, it's used often without the negro--who's using it as an alibi--being aware that he's doing so.

WARREN: In other words, it's even more destructive when its unconscious?

ROWAN: Yes, I think so. You run into a slight here or a slight there, and it gets to be part of the pattern, and it almost becomes, uh, a part of your natural response to assume that somebody is discriminating against you. Oh, I've known many instances where, uh, people have 65:00assumed that discrimination was involved when nothing even remotely akin to it was involved.

WARREN: We hear the debt to, uh, the negro. The question of preferential treatment and the Whitney Young's "Marshall Plan." Now, clearly there are--necessary actions to be taken in terms of remedy. How would you distinguish between the debt to the negro and, uh--well, first, how would you interpret the debt, the debt to the negro?

ROWAN: Well, let me say that I--well, I would support the government undertaking the kind of actions Whitney Young spelled out, I would 66:00support it on a basis far bigger than a, than a debt to the negro. I view it as the country's debt to itself, uh, in a sense. You've got a tenth of the population, which is not contributing all that it should or could to the economy, to our society, to everything that we're trying to do. And obviously the only way to make that 10 percent able to make a full contribution is to help it to make-up this gap--educational gap, cultural gap, economic gap--that has been imposed because of discriminations of the past. Now, um, you've got to get the negro out of this vicious circle somehow in which, uh, that's the circle in which he is unable to move in certain areas because he's not had the background or the experience and he's unable to get the experience because of the present condition he's in. And, uh, I think, 67:00of course, the federal government does have an obligation to make some dramatic moves in that particular direction.

WARREN: Now, how would you distinguish such moves toward remedying the negro's situation and a move toward attacking the problem lack of education and lack of privilege in general?

ROWAN: Oh, I definitely think that ought to be done. That's why I'm such an advocate of the President's War on Poverty program.

WARREN: That is, uh, the question of the negro would be then, uh, it would be something subsuminal to the general topic of the attack on, on the loss of human resources in America in general.

ROWAN: That's right, that's right. It's merely an extension of what I think the nation ought to be doing for any of its people who 68:00are underprivileged and, uh, who lack opportunities because of the injustices in the past. For example, I've written many articles about the state of the American Indian and what I think we ought to be doing to remedy that situation.

WARREN: That the general proposition of the use of human resources, uh, takes precedence in your mind then over the question of mere rate of application in terms of race.

ROWAN: Yes, I, yes, I would put it on a far broader basis than the, than the simple question of race.

WARREN: Let me read a little, a little passage here on the danger of slogans. Let's see how you react to this statement. "There is a danger in the newfound militancy. Negroes may become the victims of their own rhetoric. Some negro leaders have already shown a tendency to react to labels rather than to substance. Once a proposal has been 69:00called moderate or solved, they are obliged to attack it automatically without regard to the merits of the case. In '63, most negro leaders attacked Kennedy for opposing the 'strong' and supporting the weak version of the CR bill before the House Judiciary Committee. Yet the 'strong' version is in some ways weaker. For example, it omitted the creation of federal registrars to insure negro voting rights. The label 'weak' had been taken by the negro leaders for this bill."

ROWAN: Oh, I agree with that observation completely. And, um, one of my points is that, uh, negro leaders have got to fight this business where a man gets up and calls something, uh, "moderate" or "pussyfooting" or 70:00calls somebody an "Uncle Tom," and, and immediately--or some proposal Uncle Tommish or a compromise, and that willy-nilly you're supposed to be against it. This is anti-intellectualism. And it's, uh, a reactionary viewpoint in itself. I think that one of the worst things that could happen would be for negroes to fall further victim to this slogan area.

WARREN: Let me read you another quotation: "The color question is a social problem, and as such is not essentially different from any other social problem. By reason of this fact, (??) of these same processes of adjustment, social problems by their very nature do not lend themselves to immediate or absolute solutions." This is by Professor 71:00Gordon Hancock who is a negro.

ROWAN: Yes, yes, I know. Well, uh, in the most general sense, of course, that's true. Certainly no social problem of any magnitude lends itself to an absolute solution and I doubt very much that, uh, it's feasible to talk of this race problem in terms of an absolute solution. Now, the other part of it, whether or not a social problem will lends itself to immediate action or immediate solution, well, once you've said that there's no absolute solution there's some question in my mind as to whether you can then talk about an immediate solution.

WARREN: Yes, yes.

ROWAN: But, uh, if you assume that there can be a partial solution but not an absolute one, I'd say that many social problems do lend themselves to, uh, immediate solutions if you don't mean by 'immediate' 72:00the next five minutes.

WARREN: How do you relate this to the slogan "Freedom Now"?

ROWAN: Well, this is, this is just a case of another one of those slogans which, uh, illustrates or articulates a feeling or an attitude of frustration. But certainly no, has no relationship to what's possible.

WARREN: It's a poetic statement, then?

ROWAN: That's right. That's right. But it has no relationship whatsoever to the possibilities and realities of the world in which any of us live.

WARREN: Now, a sophisticated person knows that there's always a lag between the emotional statement of urgency and the possibility of achievement.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: We all know that.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: We all know the history (??) or even just the facts of life. But 73:00there are a lot of people who don't have that kind of sophistication.

ROWAN: Well, now let me, let me say that "Freedom Now" is a slogan, sure, but it balances off another slogan that the negro has heard for many generations. "We can't solve this problem over night." Now, that's a slogan and it's also a truism. But the negro has said, uh, 'No'--looking at it in a realistic, intellectual way--'obviously we won't solve it overnight. But the demand is that we work as though we want to solve it overnight.' And, uh, it's somewhere between those two slogans that the area of the realism lies.

WARREN: That is, you would see this as one more example of a necessary polarity in all human action.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: Between the urgency for immediate for action, and the, uh, 74:00fruits of action in reality?

ROWAN: That's exactly right.

WARREN: (pause) Do you remember--did you read Faulkner's Intruder in the Dust?

ROWAN: Yes, I did.

WARREN: Do you remember the passage on homogeneity toward the end? The South and homogeneity, negro and white, somehow as opposed to some, um, values outside in the South? Do you remember that? It's a very vague passage.

ROWAN: Yes, I remember it vaguely, but not, not very well.

WARREN: Well, if you don't remember it, uh, you know, then sharp (??).

ROWAN: I don't remember it with any sharpness.

WARREN: There's something related to it though of some interest. A good many historians say that the negro in America is much more like the old American, than like the modern American.

75:00

ROWAN: In what, in what way?

WARREN: In the sense like the old, uh, sort of New Englander (??), uh, sort of old, old Southerner, than like the new modern urban, uh, type of mixed ethnic origin.

ROWAN: Well, I don't, I don't see much that would enable me to support that contention. There are a lot of kinds of negro in this country.

WARREN: Yes.

ROWAN: And, uh, I know several kinds of them.

WARREN: That is, you would attack it on the grounds of, uh, just the pluralisms in the general category of negro then?

ROWAN: Well, on that ground, specifically, but secondly on the ground that I just don't think I've observed, uh, anything that would allow me to make that judgment.

WARREN: One way they go at it is by saying that the essential--well, religiosity of the negro which corresponds to the religiosity, you see, 76:00of the older groups like the, uh, Southern society, backcountry New England (??).

ROWAN: I'm inclined to think that the negro, like the rest of the American population, has tended to move a bit away from this religiosity in the last several years.

WARREN: On that basis, then you conceive (??) then that--Dr. King's philosophy would apply perhaps to the South but not in the North, not in the big urban centers?

ROWAN: Uh, not to certainly not to the extent that it applies in the South.

WARREN: He is trapped in a way by thinking that what applies in Atlanta and in Birmingham could apply in New York or Detroit.

ROWAN: It would apply in some areas of New York and Detroit because 77:00there are sections of these big metropolitan centers that are really little more than extensions of the South. So many of the residents having very recently come out of this Southern setting. But certainly, um, the dominant element of the negro community in these areas would be quite unlike, uh, this, uh, negro of the South who is devoted to great religiosity.

WARREN: Let's read another quote: "The self-image of the negro middle- class is one of ability and militancy. The middle-class negro is not obsessed with status pretensions, as is the upper-class negro, nor does he suffers the abject despair of the negro masses. As a result, 78:00he seldom displays the kind of insecurity that needs--and the need for ancestral"-- I'm sorry. "He seldom displays the kind of insecurity, uh, characteristic, you see, of the other two classes, the bottom and the top." This is Eric Lincoln.

ROWAN: Hm. I wonder who hers referring to as the negro middle-class. That's, uh, that would be my first question. Secondly, um, I would, I would say based on what I assume he's referring to as the negro middle- class, that the concern for status symbols is just as great as it is in any other segment of the negro population. Just as great as it is in 79:00the white, um, middle-class. And I would say that this contention goes against what, uh, a great many surveyors have found. For example people who do marketing surveys. The Ebony magazine marketing survey people and others who have, um, generally found that this negro middle-class man will tend to buy, uh, a higher class product than the white middle- class man in some respects. This is in itself a, a status symbol in the sense that it's, it's an ego builder. It's a self-image builder.

WARREN: That's the conspicuous consumption which is said to be characteristic of the prosperous negro, then.

ROWAN: But as I say it depends on whom refers to as middle-class. But 80:00certainly when you talk about, um, frustrations, I would say that the middle-class negro may have more frustrations than the, uh, lower-class masses. In the sense that, uh, he is at a point where he begins to think more about his position in society and he begins to think more about, uh, his inability to go certain places and do certain things.

WARREN: To, uh, say it back to see that I understand you. That is, he has, uh, achieved professionally, intellectually, and economically.

ROWAN: Right.

WARREN: There should be no barrier between him and, uh, his opposite number, as it were in the white race.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: Now, how he finds the mystic bar rather than the economic and objective bars.

ROWAN: That's right. And it's this bar that can be more frustrating, 81:00uh, in terms of, of a man's emotions and his mind and his heart than, than some of these other barriers.

WARREN: Because other barriers are at least supported, uh, by matters of, specific objective differences that are, that are not merely skin color?

ROWAN: That's right. That's exactly right.

WARREN: Now what about the idea of some hidden resistance on the part of, uh, of upper-class or upper middle-class negroes--or however you choose to define such a bracket--against integration because it means a devaluation of their position. That is, within the negro society they are secure. They have their prestige. In an integrated society, they would encounter a kind of devaluation.

ROWAN: Well, now this has always been a, been an important factor, 82:00economically. Schoolteachers, school principals, the owner of the negro theater in an all-negro town, the owner of--well, I heard just recently, for example, of one motel owner who built a motel in the South largely because he knew the baseball teams would be training, going through spring training. And, uh, negroes in the Northern community made such a fuss over their team having segregated facilities in the South that they forced the team to go to a hotel that would admit all the players. And this man who built the negro motel lost his customers and so forth. Well, here was an obvious case of a man who, uh, uh, found desegregation to be a financial burden on him. 83:00Now this has always been true. I would, I would say that the other factor is not nearly as, as great as some people think it might be. The resistance because of the, the prestige factor. Because, uh, that man's prestige, uh, would be no less among negroes for the mere fact that, uh, integration had come. Unless, of course, integration affected him adversely in some other way, such as economically or costing him his job as a, as a principal of a school and so forth.

WARREN: We see it working in white communities the same way. The person who is, uh, say, the social leader in a town of ten thousand has no position in a town of a hundred thousand. Say, the lady who is a 84:00social leader in a town of ten thousand doesn't want to go to the big city because she then loses her position, her relative position.

ROWAN: Um-hm.

WARREN: Now, the position, the situation being that if you have an integrated society, that is, immediately there's a devaluation of many negroes who feel themselves--who are, you see, uh, important in the negro community--and are demoted in a, in a world community, immediately. Instinctively (??), these white people feel constantly about--in parallel situations

ROWAN: Well, I would say that there, there's something that's more important than this factor in terms of the, uh, the subtle, sometimes even subconscious, running away from--integration on the part of the negro. And that is, rather than, uh, fear of being demoted in this society at-large, there is a feeling of insecurity and inability to, 85:00uh, play a proper role in this society at-large. Now you take a negro woman. Maybe she's a college graduate. But the extent of her social activities has been in the negro group, negro bridge clubs et cetera, where almost no social contact with whites. It's almost natural that there's going to be, a, a really great fear of being thrust into this white social world, and it comes down to very specific things, like worrying about, uh, what to wear at a, at a function where the majority of the people are going to be white. Or, worrying about whether or not you're going to pick up the right fork, or worrying about whether or not you can discuss intelligently, whatever it is that you think the white people are going to be discussing at the social function. 86:00And people generally tend to fear what's new and what they don't know. Whether--this, this is a factor that's got nothing to do with race, so you will find a lot of negroes shying away from the integrated setting for that reason.

WARREN: It's, the same thing that, uh, afflicts all situations of social mobility though, irrespective of race.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: Though race may accentuate it.

ROWAN: That's right. Yes, exactly.

WARREN: We hear that phrase over and over again, 'Who wants to integrate with a burning house?' I think Lorraine Hansbury first, uh, gave and Baldwin has, you know, circulated. In other words, the repudiation on the part of--at least a certain kind of negro intellectual and perhaps the unsophisticated negro of middle-class American standard values. 87:00How much of that do you believe is true? How much impulse to repudiate these values? To try to find something more fundamental?

ROWAN: Oh, I doubt that there's much of that. I mean, part, part of this is an expression of personal anger and personal bitterness and so forth. But I've see no signs of any real movement within the negro community to repudiate American values, middle-class, upper-class, or what have you. I think these are, these are fundamentally the only values the great majority of negroes know. And I think what you may find is a desire to have a bigger role in determining what the values are and in shaping them. But, uh, I view this as different from the negative factor of repudiating what exists.

WARREN: That's intellectual's, um, formulation then.

ROWAN: Yes, I would, I would suppose so.

88:00

WARREN: (pause) We all know something about the white man's stereotypes of the negro. Now the negro has certain stereotypes about, about the white man. How would you describe those stereotypes? They are often self-contradictory, of course.

ROWAN: Well, stereotypes usually are when you et, when you get enough of them--

WARREN:--when you get enough of them.

ROWAN: Yes, well, let me see, um--think of, of a few of them. (pause)

WARREN: One is the white man can't tell the truth.

ROWAN: Oh, I don't know, uh, how widely held that particular one is. 89:00But I tell you--

WARREN:--you can't trust the white man, that one. You can't trust the white man, put it that way.

ROWAN: Oh, yes, this would be, would be a widely held one. That you can't trust him. That, uh, secondly, um, he's never going to give up any more than you can take from him. Thirdly, that--the white man has an insecurity he can't control where, where women are concerned. That is, that all of his fears go back to--all of his emotions go back to the fear that, that the negro is going to try to take over the white woman.

WARREN: This is sexual insecurity on the part of the white man, that stereotype.

ROWAN: Yes, that's, that's a stereotype. (pause)

90:00

[Editor's Note: No master copy of interview for the remaining tape 3.]

WARREN: The cold heart is another one.

ROWAN: I don't hear that one expressed much. There's one that I've heard going around recently that everything he can see he controls.

WARREN: To what extent--assuming these and other stereotypes of the white man by the negro--to what extent can the negro be entrapped by his stereotypes of the white man so that he can't deal with them realistically?

ROWAN: Well, let's go back to what I have said has to be the solution in the kind of society we live in. If we're going to form the kind of society that will permit negroes and whites to live in peace, it has to be based on mutuality of respect and admiration. If the negro is on the one hand trying to wipe out those stereotypes that make it difficult for the white to respect the negro--

WARREN:--the white man's stereotypes of the negro?

ROWAN: That's right. He's trying to wipe those out in order to enhance his own position in society. But at the same time he cannot build up a stereotype that make It impossible for him to respect the white man, because you start out with the assumption that there has to be a mutuality of respect or there is no respect of any consequence. And this is a really serious thing.

WARREN: It's a real problem then in your mind?

ROWAN: Oh, yes, it--and a great many groups. The negro leadership groups in past years have worked against it.

WARREN: This is the end of tape 3 of the conversation with Carl Rowan. Proceed on tape 4--I hope.

ROWAN: Yes, I've got about--

[Tape 3 ends; tape 4 begins.]

WARREN: This is tape 4, last tape of a conversation with Carl Rowan.

[Pause in recording.]

WARREN: I suppose we both assume there's no social change without power. Power is the key of, uh, of social change

ROWAN: That's correct.

WARREN: What kinds of power, uh, does the negro now wield?

ROWAN: Well, he wields a good deal of political power. He's got, uh, a great deal more of, uh, power in terms of the international situation. This whole question of race is so deeply involved in what goes on in the world that in terms of this nation's, uh, leadership posture in the 91:00world, the negro is, uh, a very important factor. The negro has got a great deal more economic power than ever before was the case. Indeed, I've pointed out to audiences abroad that, uh, this revolution and this new militancy on the part of the negro is in itself an--an indication of progress. Because, uh, without greater education on the part of the masses, without a great deal more money than the negro's ever been able to muster, he could never pay all these, uh, bonds and bails and court costs. That without political power, the fact that there's more support in the White House and in the Congress and in the courts than ever before was the case. This kind of movement never would have gotten off the ground.

WARREN: In other words, you see this movement as the culmination of a 92:00long process.

ROWAN: Yes.

WARREN: And not something that burst full-blown.

ROWAN: Oh, absolutely not. The movement never could have gotten off the ground but for a great many things that have happened over the last several years.

WARREN: And several generations.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: But as you no doubt well know, many negroes of education and experience hate to take that view.

ROWAN: Well, I'm not saying it had to take that long but, um, the fact is that all that has gone on in the past made this movement possible. Without the NAACP's legal actions over the last many years, there would have been no basis for many of the things that taking place today. Without--well, let's take for example--even the inadequate education that the negro has gotten in the last hundred years in this country. That was crucial. I believe that if you want to keep a man 93:00a slave, you've got to keep him ignorant. But once you start--once you start educating him, you're asking for, for trouble in terms of, of keeping your slave, you see. And, uh, there were some states, for example, where members of the legislature wanted an official policy adopted that the negro should not be schooled. That he should not be educated. Well, these people were right in the sense that if they wanted to keep him a slave they'd better not let him go to even a bad school. But he did go to those schools. And you're seeing some of the results of it today.

WARREN: That is, Frederick Douglass was right. Once you teach him the alphabet you're through.

ROWAN: Yes. (laughs) That's precisely right.

WARREN: To what, uh, objectives is this threat of power directed? Let me state it differently. Every revolution has, uh, is fared by hope and 94:00by hate. We have the hope. We know where that's directed. Where's the hate directed?

ROWAN: Well, I would think that, uh, such hate as exists is directed at those public officials, particularly, and those members of the, this vague thing that we would call the power structure, who have, uh, really abused their power and, and used it to block the negro from getting any semblance of first class citizenship.

WARREN: You find in most revolutions of the past the aim to liquidate a class or liquidate a regime. Now, there's no class to be liquidated here that you could isolate. No regime to be liquidated, except, say, in Mississippi.

ROWAN: Yes.

WARREN: But, um, where is this, where is this object?

95:00

ROWAN: Well, there is a regime in a vague sense, you see--

WARREN:--let's, let's define it.

ROWAN: There is, there is a regime in the eyes of the negro. There is a regime presided over by a, a tyrant named Jim Crow. Whose basic doctrine is the inferiority of the negro. Now, this is the, this is the regime that the negro seeks to destroy. Now one of the problems today is that there seems to be a little bit of growing confusion as to what the purpose of all this is.

WARREN: Let's deal with that. Good. Let's deal with that.

ROWAN: The NAACP has known where it was going all the time. The Urban League has known where it was going. And the, and the goal has been-- first-class status of the negro within an American interracial context. 96:00But we've got some youngsters in the street today who I do not believe are at all conscious of where it is they're going. They know what they're against. They know, uh, what they want in terms of, uh, having this particular restaurant open its doors to negroes, but in terms of a, of a larger goal that has some relationship to American society and the negro's position as a whole, I just don't think they've, they've ever gotten around even to thinking about it, let alone making any decisions as to what it is they want.

WARREN: Do you gather that a man like the Reverend Galamison knows what he wants? I pulled him out of the air. He's just one.

ROWAN: I don't know this man, and, uh, so I wouldn't have the remotest idea. But I, I would have to have some doubts about, uh, the depth to which he has thought about these problems in view of some of the things 97:00he's said and done.

WARREN: He's said some rather strange things, like the destroy (??) the public school is/as (??) necessary.

ROWAN: Yes, well, let's see--you get a lot of foolish things said in any kind of program like this. And, uh, I think the remarkable thing is that the negro has heard so many foolish things said about him over the last century, the remarkable thing is that more negroes haven't replied with more foolishness in the past. But we're seeing some of it today.

WARREN: We have the problem, say, of busing in New York City. Some people say we will integrate at any cost. By busing if necessary (??). The most extreme point, three hours a day--three hours a day of busing, to balance, to get racial balance. This extreme view is mentioned over and over again. I know one person--a responsible person I think--who said to me in Washington, if necessary to balance schools 98:00in Washington, DC get the white children from Virginia.

ROWAN: Well, I, uh--(laughs)--I don't, I don't go that far. I mean, that's, uh--a position that I can't carry myself to.

WARREN: That is, integration is to, uh, be treated in a context--well, other values, too--is that it? Equality is one thing, integration is another.

ROWAN: That's right.

WARREN: It has to be distinguished to, to make things work

ROWAN: The point is that, uh, you can't make the physical presence in the, in the same classroom of negroes and whites the be-all and end-all of your objective. Now, uh, I can say, 'Let's have this community make a special effort to get some racial balance in the schools, not only because it's good for--negroes, but also because it's good for white 99:00people. Because no white youngster, uh, growing up deliberately aloof from the colored people in this country is going to be able to cope with the kind of world we live in,' et cetera, et cetera. But there is a limit to, uh, which I am willing to disrupt other factors that are important to the negro and the white person and the country in order to achieve this racial presence in the same classroom. For example, I don't want to bus negro youngsters three miles across town just to put them in a white classroom, if nothing else is being done, uh, to change the reasons why this segregated setup existed in the first place. The negro's isolation in Jim Crow housing--the low economic status of those youngsters, the conditions that exist in the home because perhaps the 100:00father, uh, doesn't have the right kind of job or the right kind of education. I say let's do something about those things, too, in our efforts to achieve school desegregation.

WARREN: And sometimes as a corollary that some values have to give in the face of other values.

ROWAN: Oh, yes.

WARREN: Even the values of say integration in a special case might have to give before other values.

ROWAN: Yes, this, uh, answering that in the, uh, intellectual context, that's certainly true.

WARREN: That is, integration can become a chevalier which actually works against as a matter of equality.

ROWAN: Well, that's, that's precisely my point, yes.

WARREN: I was just saying it back so I'd be sure I got your--

ROWAN:--yes, that is precisely my point. Well, I'm going to have to--

WARREN:--all right.

ROWAN: Break it off.

WARREN: All right, sure.

[Pause in recording.]

101:00

WARREN: This is the end of the last tape with Carl Rowan. End, end, end, end, end.

[Tape 4 ends.]

[End of interview.]

0:33 - Are civil rights groups passé?

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan describes the need for civil rights groups, which is in opposition to Adam Clayton Powell's assertion that the "negro" civil rights groups are dead. He also discusses the role of classism in the North and South.

Keywords: civil rights groups; lower class "negroes"; North vs. South; upper class "negroes"

Subjects: Civil rights movements. Classism

5:43 - Assimilation, race and classism

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan questions the business of assimilation and takes on the notion of race and classism within a race and between races.

Keywords: discrimination between races and within races; finding accommodations for difference

Subjects: Assimilation (Sociology) Classism Race discrimination.

9:00 - Lack of opportunities caused by discrimination, success and suspicion

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan describes the missed opportunities due to "negroes" not being at the table when doors are opened for others. He also discusses the suspicion of successful "negroes".

Keywords: denied opportunities

Subjects: Discrimination Opportunity--Social aspects. Success

13:36 - Successful "negroes" and the civil rights struggle

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: He discusses the contributions of the successful "negro", the role of whites and the past and present contributions of civil rights organizations.

Keywords: civil rights and the "successful negro"; new militants

Subjects: Civil rights movements Demonstrations Leadership Progress Success Whites

16:32 - White liberals and the "new negroes"

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the role of white liberals and the "new negroes" in the quest for leadership within the civil rights movement.

Keywords: "new negroes"; militancy; revolution; white liberals

Subjects: African Americans Decision making Leadership

19:45 - "Negro" self-image

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: He discusses the changes that are taking place regarding "negro" self confidence and self image.

Keywords: belief in self; cultural background; ego

Subjects: Brainwashing Confidence Self-perception

23:46 - Love your oppressor?

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan compares Dr. King's nonviolent stand and Dr. Clark's comment on the erroneous assumption that any oppressed people will love their oppressor.

Keywords: "pie in the sky" thinking; "turn the other cheek"

Subjects: Leadership Nonviolence--Study and teaching

26:23 - Is it a "negro revolution"?

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan adds perspective to the "negro revolution" in the United States and world wide revolutions. He also talks about the misconception that only one "negro" leader will rise.

Keywords: colonialism; demanding equal rights; evolution of one leader; racism; timing

Subjects: Leadership Revolutions. Tactics

31:39 - "Negroes" as Africans or Americans, white southerners

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the identity of "negroes" as African and/or American. He also discusses the racial identity of whites in the South.

Keywords:

Subjects: Africans. Americans Identity (Philosophical concept) Southern States. Whites

38:17 - The psychology of southern white men and American "negroes"

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: He discusses the differences and similarities between American "negroes" and white men, as well as those among "negroes" from different regions.

Keywords: regional differences; southerners; white men

Subjects: African Americans Whites

44:52 - Inevitable racial peace

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the coming of peace and how the press and the black man's courage leads toward that peace.

Keywords: Northern tactics; sway of the press; the future; the South

Subjects: Courage Leadership Newspapers Peace

48:38 - Reconstruction and reconciliation

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the benefits of compensation, or the lack thereof, and the morality that accompanies compensations.

Keywords: compensation for slave owners and slaves

Subjects: Civil War, U. S., 1861-1865 Ethics. Slavery

52:17 - Abraham Lincoln and Thomas Jefferson

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan expresses his thoughts about various presidents and their historical relevance.

Keywords: abstract terms; emancipation; racism

Subjects: Jefferson, Thomas, 1743-1826. Lincoln, Abraham, 1809-1865.

57:06 - The "negro" history movement

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the purpose of "negro history", pride, achievements and the creation of a false sense of worth.

Keywords:

Subjects:

60:45 - Symbolism

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Penn Warren and Rowan discuss the internalization of symbolism by "negroes".

Keywords: black equals bad; literature; symbolism; white equals good

Subjects: Racism

65:55 - Debt to the "negro"

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan explains how the support of the Negro is equivalent to the support of the country as a whole, as well as support for all in need.

Keywords: federal support to "negroes"; helping hand; war on poverty

Subjects: Needs assessment. Responsibility.

69:43 - Reactionary labeling by "negroes"

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan express his views on how quick some "negro" leaders are to label more moderate views as being "Uncle Tom"-ish.

Keywords: compromises; reactionary; Uncle Tomism

Subjects:

75:21 - "Negroes" are of the Old World?

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: There is a far-reaching discussion of whether the American "negro" is of the old world and behind the times.

Keywords: lagging behind; outdated; rural areas

Subjects:

78:30 - "Negro" middle class vs. "negro" lower class, integration

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan explains that classism is the same within the different races, including for the American "negro".

Keywords: devaluation; setting the bar; status symbols; striving to get ahead

Subjects: Classism Prestige Regionalism Segregation

88:26 - Stereotypes about the "white man"

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan discusses supposedly "negro" stereotypes about white men.

Keywords: distrust

Subjects: Stereotypes (Psychology)--United States

90:39 - Power of the "negro", threats of the revolution and future goals

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: Rowan talks about the new gains of the "negro" as a result of the civil rights movement. He also discusses what their dissatisfaction has been directed at and their future goals.

Keywords: gains from the civil rights movement; purpose

Subjects: Economics Education Goal (Psychology) Power (Social sciences) Revolutions

98:11 - Busing

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Partial Transcript:

Segment Synopsis: He discusses the pros and cons of school busing.

Keywords: other influential factors; racial balance in schools and education

Subjects: Busing for school integration Education Segregation

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